Liberation or Racism?
The French government is at it again. France’s lower house just passed a law that would m
ake it illegal for women to wear the full Islamic veil (burqa or niqab) in public. It would fine women 150 euros for not complying. Sundari posted on this issue back in February, and now this attack on religious freedom has come one step closer to being the law of the land as the bill passed 335 to 1 in the National Assembly this week. The bill would have to be ratified in September by the Senate to become law.
Proponents of the law say the National Assembly vote is a victory for democracy and French Values. Justice Minister Michele Alliot-Marie stated it was a victory for, “Values of freedom against all the oppressions which try to humiliate individuals; values of equality between men and women, against those who push for inequality and injustice.”
What about the value to practice your religion freely and express your identity (religious or otherwise) through what you wear? Madeline Bunting, in a great column in the UK’s Guardian today, stated: “Women wearing the skimpiest of mini-skirts sit down on buses next to other women in saris, business suits, salwar kameez. None of these cultural codes expressed in dress are regarded as the business of the state. Nor should they be.”
Bunting continues, “French politicians insisted on Tuesday that women need to be liberated from the full veil. Forcing people to be free has a long and undistinguished history – well described by many, including George Orwell – yet too many times an age is blinded by its own prejudices and forgets that liberation can never be imposed.”
This isn’t about whether we think wearing burqas or niqabs is a good idea or not. The issue is whether a government should be able to impose its notion of national identity on its citizens (and non-citizens for that matter). Sikhs in France are all too familiar with the confines of French identity. This new law is a disturbing development that further pushes the French government’s racist, assimilationist assertion of a homogeneous French identity– all in the name of liberation.
412 Responses to “Liberation or Racism?”
This news article which was posted in Indian Express today is quite opposite of the news article which we are discussiong over here. Here the lady teacher is forced to wear Burqa against her will and the Lady teacher Sirin Middya is not able to take classes from the last 4 months. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/a-teacher-says-…
This news article which was posted in Indian Express today is quite opposite of the news article which we are discussiong over here. Here the lady teacher is forced to wear Burqa against her will and the Lady teacher Sirin Middya is not able to take classes from the last 4 months. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/a-teacher-says-…
Sher slips up and shows his true colours – this is what he wrote in response to a comment by Bik further down in the comments in this post:
"…. the sikh past is a story of one humiliation after another, one defeat after another. too many instances where sikhs (inc Gurus) acted like pansies."
Yet he always vehemently claims that he never attacks Sikhs or Sikhism. Sher has been well and truly exposed! Truth will prevail.
Regards
Sher slips up and shows his true colours – this is what he wrote in response to a comment by Bik further down in the comments in this post:
"…. the sikh past is a story of one humiliation after another, one defeat after another. too many instances where sikhs (inc Gurus) acted like pansies."
Yet he always vehemently claims that he never attacks Sikhs or Sikhism. Sher has been well and truly exposed! Truth will prevail.
Regards
To get back on track:
Bik, Guru Teg Bahadur Singh sacrificed his life for another religion he did not believe in. So our supporting the veil even though we don't believe in it and some may even say condemn it, it would not be wrong to support it on religious freedom.
To get back on track:
Bik, Guru Teg Bahadur Singh sacrificed his life for another religion he did not believe in. So our supporting the veil even though we don't believe in it and some may even say condemn it, it would not be wrong to support it on religious freedom.
Religious freedom…. (and rights)
So you continue to support to fanatic Muslims who beheaded Sikhs in Pakistan in the name of their bigoted religion?
Do the victims of 'religious' fanaticism also have some religious freedom to practice their faith and ANY rights to live in areas dominated by loonies like Talibans (Pakistan, J&K, Sudan, Afganistan are just few names in this long list) and khalistanis?
Ever heard of Taslima Nasreen? i bet never. did you read the news about a University lecturer forced to wear Burqa IN INDIA (!!!!)?
Very selective in your rights campaigns Nimrata.
As far as GT Bahadur giving life for another religion is concerned; ask you a question.
IF IT WAS 'ANOTHER RELIGION' WHY G GOBIND SINGH WENT ALL THE WAY TO NANDED TO REQUEST MADHO DAS AKA BANDA BAHADUR WHO BELONGED TO ANOTHER RELIGION TO AVENGE HIS HUMILIATIONS?
And who back-stabbed Banda bahadur when he was cornered?
Sher
Sher
Religious freedom…. (and rights)
So you continue to support to fanatic Muslims who beheaded Sikhs in Pakistan in the name of their bigoted religion?
Do the victims of 'religious' fanaticism also have some religious freedom to practice their faith and ANY rights to live in areas dominated by loonies like Talibans (Pakistan, J&K, Sudan, Afganistan are just few names in this long list) and khalistanis?
Ever heard of Taslima Nasreen? i bet never. did you read the news about a University lecturer forced to wear Burqa IN INDIA (!!!!)?
Very selective in your rights campaigns Nimrata.
As far as GT Bahadur giving life for another religion is concerned; ask you a question.
IF IT WAS 'ANOTHER RELIGION' WHY G GOBIND SINGH WENT ALL THE WAY TO NANDED TO REQUEST MADHO DAS AKA BANDA BAHADUR WHO BELONGED TO ANOTHER RELIGION TO AVENGE HIS HUMILIATIONS?
And who back-stabbed Banda bahadur when he was cornered?
Sher
Sher
@H S (Harpreet Singh)
For very selfish reasons, I hope you are a die hard supporter of Khalistan and provide arguments, similar to the ones given by you above, on any discussion on khalistan. Its because of such rabid, foaming at the mouth supporters of Khalistan that the movement died its natural death. Keep up the good work internet kharkoo – a heartfelt thanks
@H S (Harpreet Singh)
For very selfish reasons, I hope you are a die hard supporter of Khalistan and provide arguments, similar to the ones given by you above, on any discussion on khalistan. Its because of such rabid, foaming at the mouth supporters of Khalistan that the movement died its natural death. Keep up the good work internet kharkoo – a heartfelt thanks
To quote an old quote"can't we all get along".
To quote an old quote"can't we all get along".
In case you don't realize, I think I should also mention this.
All sources above are non indian, in case you try to discredit them with some imagined ties to hindutva organizations. And these aren't youtube videos but actual articles, blogs by non Indians. And no, haven't included Kim Bolan either, now we don't want to banging your head on the wall do we.
Chew on it son
Chew on this son…
P.S. And I haven't referenced any article written by Kim Bolan
Oh dear. I'm not a gambling man but if I was I would be willing to place serious money on the notion that the Indian Hindu forums & blogs are very boring places indeed. They must be. Why else would so many Indian Hindus spend their time here trying to convince us non-Hindus that we are also Indian Hindus ?
But then again, it could have something to do with mental illness.
Actually, thinking about it, I've just re-read Sher and MastRam's messages and it definately is something to do with mental illness.
Mental illness is no laughing matter. It could strike any of us at any time. I hope it doesn't, but if it does get me I can see myself doing something very irrational and 'mental' such as going somewhere where I clearly don't belong….such as a Hindu forum……and start lecturing them on a subject I quite clearly don't have authority to lecture them on…i,e..their Hindu religion and their national identity as Hindus.
Oh dear. I'm not a gambling man but if I was I would be willing to place serious money on the notion that the Indian Hindu forums & blogs are very boring places indeed. They must be. Why else would so many Indian Hindus spend their time here trying to convince us non-Hindus that we are also Indian Hindus ?
But then again, it could have something to do with mental illness.
Actually, thinking about it, I've just re-read Sher and MastRam's messages and it definately is something to do with mental illness.
Mental illness is no laughing matter. It could strike any of us at any time. I hope it doesn't, but if it does get me I can see myself doing something very irrational and 'mental' such as going somewhere where I clearly don't belong….such as a Hindu forum……and start lecturing them on a subject I quite clearly don't have authority to lecture them on…i,e..their Hindu religion and their national identity as Hindus.
@Dosanjh
I like Sher's tenacity and interest in Sikhism.
He is actually not a Hindu, my hypothesis is that he is actually a Sikh. And who has been declared tankhaiya. He is here for revenge. I say let's accept him back into the community – we need more analytical thinkers
@Dosanjh
I like Sher's tenacity and interest in Sikhism.
He is actually not a Hindu, my hypothesis is that he is actually a Sikh. And who has been declared tankhaiya. He is here for revenge. I say let's accept him back into the community – we need more analytical thinkers
@ iSingh: I am sorry but I don't agree with you that Sher is 'analytical', and WOULD NEVER AGREE THAT HE IS 'THINKER'. He's more like an army man who are confined to the thinking capability of binary form – 'enemy' and 'friend'. There's no limit of thinking defined outside these two terms. IT IS CALLED RIGID THINKING FOR MISSION, AND NOT ANALYTICAL. Perhaps you got swayed by his cosmetically explained fictious stories and concerns.
@ iSingh: I am sorry but I don't agree with you that Sher is 'analytical', and WOULD NEVER AGREE THAT HE IS 'THINKER'. He's more like an army man who are confined to the thinking capability of binary form – 'enemy' and 'friend'. There's no limit of thinking defined outside these two terms. IT IS CALLED RIGID THINKING FOR MISSION, AND NOT ANALYTICAL. Perhaps you got swayed by his cosmetically explained fictious stories and concerns.
TLH is showing me a lot of laad pyaar, it isn't allowing my comments :p
I feel deprived that I can respond to HS' intellectual observations and comments.
@HS : "Your terrorist tentacles have reached foreign shores too and right there in Canada"
Oh, TLH is showing me a lot of laad pyaar by selectively deleting my comments. No issues HS, for your sake, I'll republish them. I owe you this much as it seems I didn't come through and satisfy your feeling of entitlement to my replies on every single one of your rants. You are talking about terrorist tentacles reaching Canada, let me give you a small list of articles that do agree with that comment of yours, the only difference is that they are talking about sikh terrorism. And these aren't Indian sources, lest you try discrediting them with links to hindutva. ……….
Chew on this son…just remove the spaces and enjoy another viewpoint, 'slightly' different from your own. Above you were commenting that Sher confines his thinking to his own rigid stance. Lets see you give this a try. You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk yourself ?
P.S. And I purposely haven't referenced any article written by Kim Bolan
http :// www . the trumpet . c o m/?q=3980.2206.0.0
http :// www .ma ckenzi einstitute .com /2 003 /ot her_peoples _wars1 . htm
http :// www. theepo chtimes . com /n2 /co ntent/ view/34375/
http :/ / www . csis-scrs. gc.ca/ pbl ctns/prspctvs /200004 -eng . asp
http://www . cbc.ca /news/ back ground/ sikh-politics-ca nada/index. html
http://www . informa world . com/ sm pp /con tent~db=all~con tent=a7377 27164
http://www . spitt oon .org /arch ives / 6125
TLH is showing me a lot of laad pyaar, it isn't allowing my comments :p
I feel deprived that I can respond to HS' intellectual observations and comments.
@Mastram: How about the following, you or Sher never replied to this comment earlier. It encompasses views of the whole world's media and views of the erudite men, well aware of this community, like Amartya Sen.
"http://www .friendsofsouthasia. org/textbook/AmartyaSen_On_Hindutva.html" —->View of Dr. Amartya Sen in his book
"http://www. nytimes. com/2002/12/30/opinion/30FRIE.html" —-> YEAH BABY, THIS IS NYTIMES.COM SHOWING THE REAL FACE OF HINDU PROPAGANDISTS
"http://www. nytimes. com/2008/11/12/world/asia/12india.html?_r=1" —-> ANOTHER NYTIMES.COM
"http://in .reuters. com/article/idINIndia-36546420081117" ———> HINDU TERRORISM IS INDEED PANDORA'S BOX, REUTERS!
"http:// news.bbc.co.uk /2/hi/7739541.stm" ———> HINDU TERRORISTS INCLUDE MILITARY MEN AND TRAINING, BBC!
"http://www .guardian.co.uk /world/2006/jun/15/india.schoolsworldwide" —> AND THIS IS GUARDIAN.CO.UK SHOWING THE TRUE COLOURS OF HINDUS
"http:// indiatoday.intoday.in /site/Story/105546/India/saffron-brigades-terror-plots-exposed.html"
"http:// ibnlive.in. com/news/rss-members-behind-hyderabad-ajmer-blasts/115372-3.html" –> RSS INVOLVED IN HYDERABAD MASJID AND AJMER DARGAH BLASTS
"http:// ibnlive.in. com/news/army-in-crisis-over-saffron-terror-stain/77589-3.html?fads=ads" —–> HAND OF INDIAN ARMY IN HELPING HINDU TERRORISM
"http:// www .washingtontimes. com/news/2008/nov/21/probe-reveals-hindu-terror-cell/"
"http://www .atimes. com/ind-pak/AJ30Df02.html"
"http ://india-facts. com/news/hindu-terror/20081225104/indias-hindu-groups-three-bodies-one-soul/"
"http ://indianterrorism.bravepages. com/extremist%20funding.htm" —> HINDU EXTREMIST GROUPS RECEIVING FUNDS FROM HINDUS IN EUROPE AND NORTH AMERICA
"http://www .hindu. com/2007/02/14/stories/2007021415630400.htm" —-> SEE HOW HINDUS ARE PROMOTING HATRED AGAINST DALITS AND MINORITIES IN STATE FUNDED SCHOOLS
THERE ARE SO MANY NEWS ARTICLES AND OPINIONS ABOUT THE HINDUS AND HINDUTVA CHANGING HISTORY, OR SPREADING HATRED AGAINST MINORITIES, FURTHERING THEIR PROPAGANDA IN INDIA THROUGH GOVERNMENT MACHINERY….just read these below links which contain links to multiple such fact based opinions and articles.
"http://www .sacw. net/HateEducation/index.html"
"http ://indianterrorism.bravepages. com/hindufundamentalismindex.htm"
LEAVING APART THE OPINIONS AND ARTICLES, IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN ASKING IT FROM ACADEMIA, HERE'S EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW OF HINDU TERRORISM (MINUS THE LATEST ACTIVITIES)
"http://www .nyu. edu/classes/keefer/joe/reuben2.html"
Let's see what name you give to this walk now!!!!
PS: And I purposely, too, didn't include the opinions of the authors you would like comparing to Kim Bolan. I HAVE ALSO AVOIDED YOUTUBE VIDEOS AS YOUR COMRADE SHER IS AFRAID OF THE MIRROR AND TRUTH.
@HS : "Your terrorist tentacles have reached foreign shores too and right there in Canada"
Oh, TLH is showing me a lot of laad pyaar by selectively deleting my comments. No issues HS, for your sake, I'll republish them. I owe you this much as it seems I didn't come through and satisfy your feeling of entitlement to my replies on every single one of your rants. You are talking about terrorist tentacles reaching Canada, let me give you a small list of articles that do agree with that comment of yours, the only difference is that they are talking about sikh terrorism. And these aren't Indian sources, lest you try discrediting them with links to hindutva. ……….
Chew on this son…just remove the spaces and enjoy another viewpoint, 'slightly' different from your own. Above you were commenting that Sher confines his thinking to his own rigid stance. Lets see you give this a try. You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk yourself ?
P.S. And I purposely haven't referenced any article written by Kim Bolan
http :// www . the trumpet . c o m/?q=3980.2206.0.0
http :// www .ma ckenzi einstitute .com /2 003 /ot her_peoples _wars1 . htm
http :// www. theepo chtimes . com /n2 /co ntent/ view/34375/
http :/ / www . csis-scrs. gc.ca/ pbl ctns/prspctvs /200004 -eng . asp
http://www . cbc.ca /news/ back ground/ sikh-politics-ca nada/index. html
http://www . informa world . com/ sm pp /con tent~db=all~con tent=a7377 27164
http://www . spitt oon .org /arch ives / 6125
@Mastram: How about the following, you or Sher never replied to this comment earlier. It encompasses views of the whole world's media and views of the erudite men, well aware of this community, like Amartya Sen.
"http://www .friendsofsouthasia. org/textbook/AmartyaSen_On_Hindutva.html" —->View of Dr. Amartya Sen in his book
"http://www. nytimes. com/2002/12/30/opinion/30FRIE.html" —-> YEAH BABY, THIS IS NYTIMES.COM SHOWING THE REAL FACE OF HINDU PROPAGANDISTS
"http://www. nytimes. com/2008/11/12/world/asia/12india.html?_r=1" —-> ANOTHER NYTIMES.COM
"http://in .reuters. com/article/idINIndia-36546420081117" ———> HINDU TERRORISM IS INDEED PANDORA'S BOX, REUTERS!
"http:// news.bbc.co.uk /2/hi/7739541.stm" ———> HINDU TERRORISTS INCLUDE MILITARY MEN AND TRAINING, BBC!
"http://www .guardian.co.uk /world/2006/jun/15/india.schoolsworldwide" —> AND THIS IS GUARDIAN.CO.UK SHOWING THE TRUE COLOURS OF HINDUS
"http:// indiatoday.intoday.in /site/Story/105546/India/saffron-brigades-terror-plots-exposed.html"
"http:// ibnlive.in. com/news/rss-members-behind-hyderabad-ajmer-blasts/115372-3.html" –> RSS INVOLVED IN HYDERABAD MASJID AND AJMER DARGAH BLASTS
"http:// ibnlive.in. com/news/army-in-crisis-over-saffron-terror-stain/77589-3.html?fads=ads" —–> HAND OF INDIAN ARMY IN HELPING HINDU TERRORISM
"http:// www .washingtontimes. com/news/2008/nov/21/probe-reveals-hindu-terror-cell/"
"http://www .atimes. com/ind-pak/AJ30Df02.html"
"http ://india-facts. com/news/hindu-terror/20081225104/indias-hindu-groups-three-bodies-one-soul/"
"http ://indianterrorism.bravepages. com/extremist%20funding.htm" —> HINDU EXTREMIST GROUPS RECEIVING FUNDS FROM HINDUS IN EUROPE AND NORTH AMERICA
"http://www .hindu. com/2007/02/14/stories/2007021415630400.htm" —-> SEE HOW HINDUS ARE PROMOTING HATRED AGAINST DALITS AND MINORITIES IN STATE FUNDED SCHOOLS
THERE ARE SO MANY NEWS ARTICLES AND OPINIONS ABOUT THE HINDUS AND HINDUTVA CHANGING HISTORY, OR SPREADING HATRED AGAINST MINORITIES, FURTHERING THEIR PROPAGANDA IN INDIA THROUGH GOVERNMENT MACHINERY….just read these below links which contain links to multiple such fact based opinions and articles.
"http://www .sacw. net/HateEducation/index.html"
"http ://indianterrorism.bravepages. com/hindufundamentalismindex.htm"
LEAVING APART THE OPINIONS AND ARTICLES, IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN ASKING IT FROM ACADEMIA, HERE'S EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW OF HINDU TERRORISM (MINUS THE LATEST ACTIVITIES)
"http://www .nyu. edu/classes/keefer/joe/reuben2.html"
Let's see what name you give to this walk now!!!!
PS: And I purposely, too, didn't include the opinions of the authors you would like comparing to Kim Bolan. I HAVE ALSO AVOIDED YOUTUBE VIDEOS AS YOUR COMRADE SHER IS AFRAID OF THE MIRROR AND TRUTH.
@H S
You have no idea how much your 'references' delight me. Thanks for all the research. Wish you could have done the same for Kagan 😉 (j/k)
@H S
You have no idea how much your 'references' delight me. Thanks for all the research. Wish you could have done the same for Kagan 😉 (j/k)
"the word 'Hindu' needs to be hated…………. . his hatred for the community Sikh gurus belonged "
——————————
^ Oh here we go….that ol' chestnut. That classic argument that if a Sikh dare express the natural desire and human right of every person on earth : The desire to be free……Then that Sikh is obviously a TERRORIST. Worse still a BEARDIE TERRORIST. A BEARDIE TERRORIST FULL OF HATRED that will probably EAT YOUR BABIES if given the chance.
Its your own fault 'H S'. You should know by now….especially after the lesson they taught us in 1984…that we should our limits….know our place in this master / slave relationship. In this relationship they (and I still can't understand why 'they' feel the need to be here on a Sikh blog trying desperately to convince us Sikhs that we are Indian Hindus like 'them') tell us to jump and we ask 'how high'. We do not have minds of our own and aspirations of our own. Its our own fault for being sandal wearing beardies. It scares the children.
"the word 'Hindu' needs to be hated…………. . his hatred for the community Sikh gurus belonged "
——————————
^ Oh here we go….that ol' chestnut. That classic argument that if a Sikh dare express the natural desire and human right of every person on earth : The desire to be free……Then that Sikh is obviously a TERRORIST. Worse still a BEARDIE TERRORIST. A BEARDIE TERRORIST FULL OF HATRED that will probably EAT YOUR BABIES if given the chance.
Its your own fault 'H S'. You should know by now….especially after the lesson they taught us in 1984…that we should our limits….know our place in this master / slave relationship. In this relationship they (and I still can't understand why 'they' feel the need to be here on a Sikh blog trying desperately to convince us Sikhs that we are Indian Hindus like 'them') tell us to jump and we ask 'how high'. We do not have minds of our own and aspirations of our own. Its our own fault for being sandal wearing beardies. It scares the children.
My wife is from Punjab….university educated. It is only when she came to England that she first learn't that Punjab was even an independant sovereign nation before it was forced to become part of India. Fully independant, and not a suzerainty like the other former princely states of India. It was only when she came to England that she learn't where our Sikh kingdom extended to. It was only when she came to England that she learn't that our Punjabi langiage was 900 years older than the Hindi language that her teachers in India had forcefully conducted her education in, at the expense of Punjabi.
First India kills them…….Then India scares them into submission with the threat of death and torture…..then India denies them access to knowledge about themselves and their history……….and now Sher you have the balls to claim that 'they' in Punjab love India and have no interest in 'freedom'.
My wife is from Punjab….university educated. It is only when she came to England that she first learn't that Punjab was even an independant sovereign nation before it was forced to become part of India. Fully independant, and not a suzerainty like the other former princely states of India. It was only when she came to England that she learn't where our Sikh kingdom extended to. It was only when she came to England that she learn't that our Punjabi langiage was 900 years older than the Hindi language that her teachers in India had forcefully conducted her education in, at the expense of Punjabi.
First India kills them…….Then India scares them into submission with the threat of death and torture…..then India denies them access to knowledge about themselves and their history……….and now Sher you have the balls to claim that 'they' in Punjab love India and have no interest in 'freedom'.
@H S et al
Guys, I think you are yourself falling into the 'Sher fallacy'. You are painting all Hindus in the same color. It is true that there are many fanatical Hindus (and I have met some) but vast majority of Hindus are peace loving just as Sikhs are. Just like Indian media reinforced the message that 1) Only sikh's were responsible for all the killings that happened in Punjab during the dark decades 2) Anyone with a beard is a potential terrorist, similarly Hindus are being painted in the same light by western media.
Remember that 1984 riots and 'Godhra' riots had a strong economic and political motive and many anti-Muslim rioteers (confirmed for post-Godhra) were paid for – mercenaries from Bihar/ UP. I know Hindus who will throw stones at the Delhi-Lahore bus, but they are exceptions.
Let Sher not shape your opinion. Enjoy his charade and keep the possibility open that he could be disgruntled Sikh spawning hatred against the Hindus.
@H S et al
Guys, I think you are yourself falling into the 'Sher fallacy'. You are painting all Hindus in the same color. It is true that there are many fanatical Hindus (and I have met some) but vast majority of Hindus are peace loving just as Sikhs are. Just like Indian media reinforced the message that 1) Only sikh's were responsible for all the killings that happened in Punjab during the dark decades 2) Anyone with a beard is a potential terrorist, similarly Hindus are being painted in the same light by western media.
Remember that 1984 riots and 'Godhra' riots had a strong economic and political motive and many anti-Muslim rioteers (confirmed for post-Godhra) were paid for – mercenaries from Bihar/ UP. I know Hindus who will throw stones at the Delhi-Lahore bus, but they are exceptions.
Let Sher not shape your opinion. Enjoy his charade and keep the possibility open that he could be disgruntled Sikh spawning hatred against the Hindus.
The ultimate truth,,,
Like the pupil in the eyes
The Lord resides inside
Ignorant do not know this fact
They search Him outside
The ultimate truth,,,
Like the pupil in the eyes
The Lord resides inside
Ignorant do not know this fact
They search Him outside
hahahaha….seriously I am loving seeing this Sher's antics like a wild dog gone mad…keep posting your imaginary history which you are made to concoct in RSS Shakhas and Hindutva-cum-governement sponsored Schools…Let them coming and keep imagining wild and high…I am just waiting for the turn when your imagination would claim that 1) Hindutva and Hinduism is the mother of humanity which started on earth, and 2) All religions in this world are offshoots of Sanatan Dharma!!!! Not difficult to imagine. Remember story of 'Manu'?
hahahaha….seriously I am loving seeing this Sher's antics like a wild dog gone mad…keep posting your imaginary history which you are made to concoct in RSS Shakhas and Hindutva-cum-governement sponsored Schools…Let them coming and keep imagining wild and high…I am just waiting for the turn when your imagination would claim that 1) Hindutva and Hinduism is the mother of humanity which started on earth, and 2) All religions in this world are offshoots of Sanatan Dharma!!!! Not difficult to imagine. Remember story of 'Manu'?
News from Australia today:
"Defendant in veil case Anwar Sayed bashed
DETECTIVES are investigating claims that a man who received death threats because he was agitating to have Muslim women lift their veils while giving evidence has been bashed.
Anwar Sayed, who is standing trial for fraud in the West Australian District Court, had received death threats over the controversy which came to light on Tuesday when a Muslim female witness, known only as Tasneem, asked a judge to decide whether she had to wear her head-to-toe covering while giving evidence for the prosecution.
Mr Sayed was the director at the Muslim Ladies College of Australia in Perth's southern suburbs, where Tasneem worked as a teacher for about 12 months. Mr Sayed has been charged with fraudulently obtaining up to $750,000 from state and federal governments by falsifying the number of students at the college.
Police have cordoned off an area near a solicitor’s office in suburban Leeming. It is believed Mr Sayed was assaulted after a confrontation early this morning……"
News from Australia today:
“Defendant in veil case Anwar Sayed bashed
DETECTIVES are investigating claims that a man who received death threats because he was agitating to have Muslim women lift their veils while giving evidence has been bashed.
Anwar Sayed, who is standing trial for fraud in the West Australian District Court, had received death threats over the controversy which came to light on Tuesday when a Muslim female witness, known only as Tasneem, asked a judge to decide whether she had to wear her head-to-toe covering while giving evidence for the prosecution.
Mr Sayed was the director at the Muslim Ladies College of Australia in Perth’s southern suburbs, where Tasneem worked as a teacher for about 12 months. Mr Sayed has been charged with fraudulently obtaining up to $750,000 from state and federal governments by falsifying the number of students at the college.
Police have cordoned off an area near a solicitor’s office in suburban Leeming. It is believed Mr Sayed was assaulted after a confrontation early this morning……”
Taliban Executes Pregnant Woman in Afghanistan
http:// www1 .voanews. com/english/news/asia/ Taliban-Executes-Pregnant-Woman-in-Afghanistan–100285019.html
Would the bleeding hearts defend this right to kill innocents too?
Where are those H Ss and 'Harpreet Singh' defenders of barbarian faith from the Arabic desert?
Sher
Taliban Executes Pregnant Woman in Afghanistan
http:// www1 .voanews. com/english/news/asia/ Taliban-Executes-Pregnant-Woman-in-Afghanistan–100285019.html
Would the bleeding hearts defend this right to kill innocents too?
Where are those H Ss and 'Harpreet Singh' defenders of barbarian faith from the Arabic desert?
Sher
@ Sher :IF IT WAS 'ANOTHER RELIGION' WHY G GOBIND SINGH WENT ALL THE WAY TO NANDED TO REQUEST MADHO DAS AKA BANDA BAHADUR WHO BELONGED TO ANOTHER RELIGION TO AVENGE HIS HUMILIATIONS?
First of all, Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not go to Nanded just to meet Banda Singh Bahadur. And if guru ji did meet him, it was out of kindness and mercy. Guru Ji saved him from falling into the pit of ridhia/sidhia and ahankar and showed him a better way and so Banda Singh Bahadur took Amrit and was renamed Gurbaksh Singh..(btw do u purposely omit the Singh from Banda Singh Bahadur?) As to the fact of why Guru Ji chose him to punish the evildoers such as Vazir Khan etc(u refer to these as humiliations, why?….. when the shaheedi of the sahibzades is the proudest moment in Sikh history) Only Guru Ji knows. And Banda Singh Bahadur was only successful with the help of Sikhs.
"And who back-stabbed Banda bahadur when he was cornered?" Please explain ..more details
Sorry post is so long, esp since most of u already know the history……..
@ Sher :IF IT WAS 'ANOTHER RELIGION' WHY G GOBIND SINGH WENT ALL THE WAY TO NANDED TO REQUEST MADHO DAS AKA BANDA BAHADUR WHO BELONGED TO ANOTHER RELIGION TO AVENGE HIS HUMILIATIONS?
First of all, Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not go to Nanded just to meet Banda Singh Bahadur. And if guru ji did meet him, it was out of kindness and mercy. Guru Ji saved him from falling into the pit of ridhia/sidhia and ahankar and showed him a better way and so Banda Singh Bahadur took Amrit and was renamed Gurbaksh Singh..(btw do u purposely omit the Singh from Banda Singh Bahadur?) As to the fact of why Guru Ji chose him to punish the evildoers such as Vazir Khan etc(u refer to these as humiliations, why?….. when the shaheedi of the sahibzades is the proudest moment in Sikh history) Only Guru Ji knows. And Banda Singh Bahadur was only successful with the help of Sikhs.
"And who back-stabbed Banda bahadur when he was cornered?" Please explain ..more details
Sorry post is so long, esp since most of u already know the history……..
Welcome back Nimrata, it took you so long to find answer to my simple query. i know very hard to find even few words to back your assertion that G T bahadur gave life for ANOTHER religion.
"First of all, Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not go to Nanded just to meet Banda…"
You are right, he did not go to South India JUST for Banda Bahadur (no where in history he is called Banda SINGH bahadur and I am referring to AUTHENTIC history sources).
I did not want to mention this Nimrata but GGS was in South India as a minor Subedar of the Mughals. same Mughals who had killed his four sons and hundreds of followers and forced him to flee (that is humiliation) Anandpur.
"soora so pehchaniye….kabhoo na chhade khet"
Mughal emperor Bahadur Shah ordered GGS to attend his court and he (the Guru) obliged:
"A news in the Akhbar-i-Darbar-i-Mualla of July 24, 1707 informs that “in response to the Emperor’s instructions (THAT IS HUMILIATION) [Guru] Gobind [Singh], [the 9th] successor of Guru Nanak, came duly armed and joined his company (TRANSLATION FULL OF EUPHEMISMS) . The Guru made a nazar (THAT IS HUMILIATION) of one thousand gold mohars to the Emperor and received in return a khillat, robe of honour and a medal studded with precious jewels as a present and got (THAT IS HUMILIATION) his leave.”
These are, unfortunately, RECORDED historical facts which cannot be refuted by even that myth factory SGPC.
GGS later joined Mughals in their Deccan (South India) campaign and that is how GGS made it to Nanded.
Guruji saved…. pit of ridhia/sidhia…what is that? what are these ridhia sidhia and where it is mentioned?
Banda's earlier army consisted entirely of Hindu Rajputs (Banda was himself one), Jaats, Gujjars and other so-called martial tribes from the places like Hissar, Tohana, sonepat, Narnaul, etc. Even today these places have very small Sikh populations even though large numbers of displaced sikhs settled in Haryana after 1947 Partition of India. All of his earlier victories (inc Samana) were made by this army with little khalsa element in it.
Why I am mentioning this is to debunk your sectarian interpretation of history and your jaundiced perspective that Sikhs were totally different religion the day Nanak was born.
"And who back-stabbed Banda bahadur when he was cornered?" Please explain.."
Long post so would 'explain' this in my next post and again my point is not to embarrass anyone but just trying to correct lot many twisted facts which have come to be known as 'sikh history'.
Sher
Welcome back Nimrata, it took you so long to find answer to my simple query. i know very hard to find even few words to back your assertion that G T bahadur gave life for ANOTHER religion.
"First of all, Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not go to Nanded just to meet Banda…"
You are right, he did not go to South India JUST for Banda Bahadur (no where in history he is called Banda SINGH bahadur and I am referring to AUTHENTIC history sources).
I did not want to mention this Nimrata but GGS was in South India as a minor Subedar of the Mughals. same Mughals who had killed his four sons and hundreds of followers and forced him to flee (that is humiliation) Anandpur.
"soora so pehchaniye….kabhoo na chhade khet"
Mughal emperor Bahadur Shah ordered GGS to attend his court and he (the Guru) obliged:
"A news in the Akhbar-i-Darbar-i-Mualla of July 24, 1707 informs that “in response to the Emperor’s instructions (THAT IS HUMILIATION) [Guru] Gobind [Singh], [the 9th] successor of Guru Nanak, came duly armed and joined his company (TRANSLATION FULL OF EUPHEMISMS) . The Guru made a nazar (THAT IS HUMILIATION) of one thousand gold mohars to the Emperor and received in return a khillat, robe of honour and a medal studded with precious jewels as a present and got (THAT IS HUMILIATION) his leave.”
These are, unfortunately, RECORDED historical facts which cannot be refuted by even that myth factory SGPC.
GGS later joined Mughals in their Deccan (South India) campaign and that is how GGS made it to Nanded.
Guruji saved…. pit of ridhia/sidhia…what is that? what are these ridhia sidhia and where it is mentioned?
Banda's earlier army consisted entirely of Hindu Rajputs (Banda was himself one), Jaats, Gujjars and other so-called martial tribes from the places like Hissar, Tohana, sonepat, Narnaul, etc. Even today these places have very small Sikh populations even though large numbers of displaced sikhs settled in Haryana after 1947 Partition of India. All of his earlier victories (inc Samana) were made by this army with little khalsa element in it.
Why I am mentioning this is to debunk your sectarian interpretation of history and your jaundiced perspective that Sikhs were totally different religion the day Nanak was born.
"And who back-stabbed Banda bahadur when he was cornered?" Please explain.."
Long post so would 'explain' this in my next post and again my point is not to embarrass anyone but just trying to correct lot many twisted facts which have come to be known as 'sikh history'.
Sher
@SHER,let me put it in simple terms,the 10 guru was not just humiliated he was beaten like a rented mule,and chased out of punjab.The hatred of sikhs against subedar Wazir Khan of sirhind is not just,because he executed the guru's sons,but also that the subedar did his job upto the end and was successful.The subedar did every thing succssessfuly that he was ordered to do,unlike the sikhs who lost every battle,and in the end lost the war,as the tenth guru not only accepted the khillat but also accepted the employment of bahadur shah.No different what today's so called baba's do.
@SHER,let me put it in simple terms,the 10 guru was not just humiliated he was beaten like a rented mule,and chased out of punjab.The hatred of sikhs against subedar Wazir Khan of sirhind is not just,because he executed the guru's sons,but also that the subedar did his job upto the end and was successful.The subedar did every thing succssessfuly that he was ordered to do,unlike the sikhs who lost every battle,and in the end lost the war,as the tenth guru not only accepted the khillat but also accepted the employment of bahadur shah.No different what today's so called baba's do.
" it took you so long to find answer to my simple query. i know very hard to find even few words to back your assertion that G T bahadur gave life for ANOTHER religion."
Firstly, It took me so long to answer you, not to find an answer. I was debating whether it was worth wasting time correcting you when you make false accusations on purpose then twist whatever was said to suit your purposes. I've realized it wasn't, so I'll try to make this my last.
Secondly, why can't you belive Guru Tegh Bahadur gave life to save another relgion. When Guru Granth Sahib Ji says Kindness and Mercy are the greatest qualities, then why would Guru Ji ignore the pleas of Kashmiri Pundits (btw, if guru Ji was a Hindu like u say, y would the pundits need to ask him to help?) Next you'll be sayin Sikhs did not rescue Hindu girls from Abdali etc. If sikhs can fight for persons of another religion, then of course their Guru did stand up against tyranny(no matter who it was aimed at) and for religious freedom. Also as u keep saying Guru Ji were Hindus then why was Bhai Mardana a muslim, why did Guru Nanak visit Mecca? Why did many Muslims convert to Sikhi?Why were Muslim pirs (mian mir, bhudu Shah) friends of the gurus? Based on this, many even say the Gurus were Sufi Muslims. Why is it hard to accept that Sikhi is different from Islam and Hindu (sanatan Dharam)
Yes our forefathers were Hindus(mostly) but that doesn't mean we are. Guru Ji did not create a different race but a different religion. Going on ur logic, there is no Christianity because Jesus/followers were Jewish(controversial) and so still are, or that all muslims are kafirs because their ancestors(mostly) were pagan tribal people.
Hindus should be thankful, but instead some say Guru Tegh Bahadur gave his life for a dispute about tankah(salary) others say he was a hindu himself. (Not all Hindus deny this, few are also thankful)
to us Sikhs, Guru Tegh Bahadur is an eternal example of selflessness and kindness and also "do not create fear in others, and do not accept fear of anyone"
"jaundiced perspective that Sikhs were totally different religion the day Nanak was born"
No, it took some 200 years (from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh) to get rid of Hindu influences and to create different religion
The history lesson will be later.
" it took you so long to find answer to my simple query. i know very hard to find even few words to back your assertion that G T bahadur gave life for ANOTHER religion."
Firstly, It took me so long to answer you, not to find an answer. I was debating whether it was worth wasting time correcting you when you make false accusations on purpose then twist whatever was said to suit your purposes. I've realized it wasn't, so I'll try to make this my last.
Secondly, why can't you belive Guru Tegh Bahadur gave life to save another relgion. When Guru Granth Sahib Ji says Kindness and Mercy are the greatest qualities, then why would Guru Ji ignore the pleas of Kashmiri Pundits (btw, if guru Ji was a Hindu like u say, y would the pundits need to ask him to help?) Next you'll be sayin Sikhs did not rescue Hindu girls from Abdali etc. If sikhs can fight for persons of another religion, then of course their Guru did stand up against tyranny(no matter who it was aimed at) and for religious freedom. Also as u keep saying Guru Ji were Hindus then why was Bhai Mardana a muslim, why did Guru Nanak visit Mecca? Why did many Muslims convert to Sikhi?Why were Muslim pirs (mian mir, bhudu Shah) friends of the gurus? Based on this, many even say the Gurus were Sufi Muslims. Why is it hard to accept that Sikhi is different from Islam and Hindu (sanatan Dharam)
Yes our forefathers were Hindus(mostly) but that doesn't mean we are. Guru Ji did not create a different race but a different religion. Going on ur logic, there is no Christianity because Jesus/followers were Jewish(controversial) and so still are, or that all muslims are kafirs because their ancestors(mostly) were pagan tribal people.
Hindus should be thankful, but instead some say Guru Tegh Bahadur gave his life for a dispute about tankah(salary) others say he was a hindu himself. (Not all Hindus deny this, few are also thankful)
to us Sikhs, Guru Tegh Bahadur is an eternal example of selflessness and kindness and also "do not create fear in others, and do not accept fear of anyone"
"jaundiced perspective that Sikhs were totally different religion the day Nanak was born"
No, it took some 200 years (from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh) to get rid of Hindu influences and to create different religion
Sikhs guru is gurbani not ithiaas (history). We realize it has been changed. The established history of Guru Gobind SIngh Ji : (unlike some ppl i have a life and do not go around changing/twisting established facts for no reason at all)
Guru Gobind SIngh Ji managed to escape from the siege at Anandpur. Escape is not the same as running away, esp since Guru Ji continued to fight the Mughal/Hindu army after leaving Anandpur Sahib.(which in not a humiliation cause Guru Ji survived 10 months of seige and did not give up.[btw the best way to win in a seige is to get out of it, and fight openly]And probably left Fort of Anandpur Sahib in order to battle openly and also left upon the request of the Army. When leaving he got seperated from sons,etc. And some see this as humiliation but really is ultimate sacrifice. THe only way to remain in castles, forts those days was to pay homage to Mughals as Hill Kings,Rajputs, and other Hindus did.)
As to Bahadur Shah, Guru ji helped him win the throne with the conditions that he would punish the evildoers such as Wazir Khan. Guru Ji was not against Muslims, just the jalami(evil/cruel). So if money/gifts were exchanged so what? You can read further on these links which also include Recorded historical facts even the Akhbar-e-Darbar-i-Mualla of July 24, 1707: http://sikhinstitute.org/jan_2010/9-bsdhillon.htm…
The history lesson will be later.
Sikhs guru is gurbani not ithiaas (history). We realize it has been changed. The established history of Guru Gobind SIngh Ji : (unlike some ppl i have a life and do not go around changing/twisting established facts for no reason at all)
Guru Gobind SIngh Ji managed to escape from the siege at Anandpur. Escape is not the same as running away, esp since Guru Ji continued to fight the Mughal/Hindu army after leaving Anandpur Sahib.(which in not a humiliation cause Guru Ji survived 10 months of seige and did not give up.[btw the best way to win in a seige is to get out of it, and fight openly]And probably left Fort of Anandpur Sahib in order to battle openly and also left upon the request of the Army. When leaving he got seperated from sons,etc. And some see this as humiliation but really is ultimate sacrifice. THe only way to remain in castles, forts those days was to pay homage to Mughals as Hill Kings,Rajputs, and other Hindus did.)
As to Bahadur Shah, Guru ji helped him win the throne with the conditions that he would punish the evildoers such as Wazir Khan. Guru Ji was not against Muslims, just the jalami(evil/cruel). So if money/gifts were exchanged so what? You can read further on these links which also include Recorded historical facts even the Akhbar-e-Darbar-i-Mualla of July 24, 1707: http://sikhinstitute.org/jan_2010/9-bsdhillon.htm…
Sher
Ur contradictory. U say Sikhs are Hindus then u say something like "It was a Hindu (banda bahadur) who restored sikh respect to some levels." which shows u yourself can't think of them as the same people, That it is impossible to imagine them, the same.
Sher
Ur contradictory. U say Sikhs are Hindus then u say something like "It was a Hindu (banda bahadur) who restored sikh respect to some levels." which shows u yourself can't think of them as the same people, That it is impossible to imagine them, the same.
<It was Raghunath Rao (brahmin Peshwa descendant from marathas) and his HINDU forces who captured Lahore next in 1756 and drove pathans up to Khyber Pass in the North west. have a look at map and see how far Marathas were from their capital Pune.>
Raghunath rao invaded punjab on the invitation of Adina beg and they restored him governer on the condition that he will pay them chauth.The same Adina beg was very cruel and enemy of sikhs.He remained governer just for six months after maratha departed from there.
<Checkout how Maratha peshwas died with valour in the third battle of Panipat. "escape" was not an option for them.>
Shivaji escaped from prison of Aurangzeb
mahadjit scindia escaped from battle of panipat and later on became Great maratha general
Nana phadnavis escaped from battle of Panipat and later on became peshwa
Now please go to any maratha blog and say that they are cowards too.I am really sorry to say that escaping of leaders is strategy not a cowardice as they can regroup and take revenge.One thing I don't understand in whole history is why so many hindu rulers died on Battlefield while hardly any muslim ruler died in battle.I must say they were very clever by doing that
<It was Raghunath Rao (brahmin Peshwa descendant from marathas) and his HINDU forces who captured Lahore next in 1756 and drove pathans up to Khyber Pass in the North west. have a look at map and see how far Marathas were from their capital Pune.>
Raghunath rao invaded punjab on the invitation of Adina beg and they restored him governer on the condition that he will pay them chauth.The same Adina beg was very cruel and enemy of sikhs.He remained governer just for six months after maratha departed from there.
<Checkout how Maratha peshwas died with valour in the third battle of Panipat. "escape" was not an option for them.>
Shivaji escaped from prison of Aurangzeb
mahadjit scindia escaped from battle of panipat and later on became Great maratha general
Nana phadnavis escaped from battle of Panipat and later on became peshwa
Now please go to any maratha blog and say that they are cowards too.I am really sorry to say that escaping of leaders is strategy not a cowardice as they can regroup and take revenge.One thing I don't understand in whole history is why so many hindu rulers died on Battlefield while hardly any muslim ruler died in battle.I must say they were very clever by doing that