Liberation or Racism?
The French government is at it again. France’s lower house just passed a law that would m
ake it illegal for women to wear the full Islamic veil (burqa or niqab) in public. It would fine women 150 euros for not complying. Sundari posted on this issue back in February, and now this attack on religious freedom has come one step closer to being the law of the land as the bill passed 335 to 1 in the National Assembly this week. The bill would have to be ratified in September by the Senate to become law.
Proponents of the law say the National Assembly vote is a victory for democracy and French Values. Justice Minister Michele Alliot-Marie stated it was a victory for, “Values of freedom against all the oppressions which try to humiliate individuals; values of equality between men and women, against those who push for inequality and injustice.”
What about the value to practice your religion freely and express your identity (religious or otherwise) through what you wear? Madeline Bunting, in a great column in the UK’s Guardian today, stated: “Women wearing the skimpiest of mini-skirts sit down on buses next to other women in saris, business suits, salwar kameez. None of these cultural codes expressed in dress are regarded as the business of the state. Nor should they be.”
Bunting continues, “French politicians insisted on Tuesday that women need to be liberated from the full veil. Forcing people to be free has a long and undistinguished history – well described by many, including George Orwell – yet too many times an age is blinded by its own prejudices and forgets that liberation can never be imposed.”
This isn’t about whether we think wearing burqas or niqabs is a good idea or not. The issue is whether a government should be able to impose its notion of national identity on its citizens (and non-citizens for that matter). Sikhs in France are all too familiar with the confines of French identity. This new law is a disturbing development that further pushes the French government’s racist, assimilationist assertion of a homogeneous French identity– all in the name of liberation.
412 Responses to “Liberation or Racism?”
This news article which was posted in Indian Express today is quite opposite of the news article which we are discussiong over here. Here the lady teacher is forced to wear Burqa against her will and the Lady teacher Sirin Middya is not able to take classes from the last 4 months. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/a-teacher-says-…
This news article which was posted in Indian Express today is quite opposite of the news article which we are discussiong over here. Here the lady teacher is forced to wear Burqa against her will and the Lady teacher Sirin Middya is not able to take classes from the last 4 months. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/a-teacher-says-…
Sher slips up and shows his true colours – this is what he wrote in response to a comment by Bik further down in the comments in this post:
"…. the sikh past is a story of one humiliation after another, one defeat after another. too many instances where sikhs (inc Gurus) acted like pansies."
Yet he always vehemently claims that he never attacks Sikhs or Sikhism. Sher has been well and truly exposed! Truth will prevail.
Regards
Billiji just reminding a typical khali psychopath that Sikhism is not without instances where they had to face humiliation and defeats. Yes, i stick to my words. the authentic history could hurt sometimes and there are too many events which would prick your "brave Khalsa" bubble. All of these events are well documented.
Why do you assume I would go on taking insults lying down by a racist bigot? Am I calling sikhs 'kuttey katoorey"? in every post of mine?
If i do you would call me 'typical hindu coward'.
You need to leash your fanatics Billi or stop complaining about the backlashes or criticism of the rising extremism in a sect/faith/panth started by the 10th Guru – Khalsa.
Sher
@Sher
For purely academic reasons, I would love to read about the humiliation that you are talking about. I have heard a lot from their side, not much from yours. If you don't want to provide details here, links to such websites would be helpful too. I could try looking for it up myself, but then I am feeling lazy.
My observation, take it for what its worth. We have to give credit to HS (Harpreet Singh) that at least his comments are 'in your face' vitriolic. Irrespective of whether they relate to the topic being discussed, he's not hiding his feelings. I feel sorry for people like Observer and Bijli who read all the comments and are blaming you for trying to ruin hindu-sikh relations and attacking their religion (not their exact words, just paraphrasing here). This behavior smacks of 'can dish it but can't take it' attitude. They are fine with the discussion as long as all hindus are being called dogs, but the minute someone mentions the sikhs, they are getting their panties in a bunch. Grow up kids….. hopefully some maturity will help you. In such a debate, discussing both religions is a fair game.
P.S : Reading the comments, its hard to believe that they are on a thread on veils :p
@ MastRam: You will follow those comments where you are able to speak something, however you and your comrade Sher will not show up or even slightly acknowledge on comments where whatever points you start fall flat. Whether it was about Sikhs' forefathers as Hindus, whether it was about Hindu as a religion, whether Hindi language being Hindus' patented or mother language, whether it was about suggestion of re-reading to Nimrata etc. Try going to these topics and see who left the thread and who deviated from the topic. I am sorry you and your comrade Sher leave a post in between and then start on new one by picking up isolated lines which you feel comfortable in arguing. I hope you go back and take a re-look. Anyways whether you call me Khalistanti or whatever, the point is I have got nothing to show you or deal with you. Whenever there's a blame on Indian govt., or even some non-Indian related issue like the "Ban on Burqa" post, you Hindus jump in as if you are representative of Indian governement.
PS: BTW, people like Sher and MastRam have reinforced the conviction in me by the articles and opinions I came across the internet, to show the real Hindutva face to readers, that your community has made all the mess and is the biggest culprit in any matter when compared with any other religion in India. Your terrorist tentacles have reached foreign shores too and right there in Canada, if I believe that is where you both (Sher for sure!!) are living. Search Canada Hindu Advocacy Group and read their neo-nazi opinions and warning based comments on their youtube channel.
When the now exposed Sher says "…. the sikh past is a story of one humiliation after another, one defeat after another. too many instances where sikhs (inc Gurus) acted like pansies" he makes it crystal clear what motivates him. Poor Sher is digging himself into a deeper hole by continuing to make ill judged comments such as
"…there are too many events which would prick your 'brave Khalsa' bubble"
"You need to leash your fanatics Billi…"
It would seem that being shown up for what he is has been too much to bear for Sher…
(Incidentally, it would be interesting to know if Sher believes in the existence of an equivalent "brave Hindu" bubble)
Regards
I don't know what Sher believes in, but the minute you step out of of your narrow, myopic religious horizon, you will realize that there aren't any "brave <insert any religion>" bubbles. That thought it almost as retarded as a martial race theory which the british propagated. But then who am I to push you out of your zone of comfort.
And in case you missed it, you may like to ponder over this comment:
"“understanding the responsibilities that come with exercising free speech”
What is it in this statement that Sher does not comprehend, that he finds confusing? Does Sher condone free speech that includes lies, swearing, slander, etc? Or does he accept that with free speech come certain responsibilities?
“…attacking me like a pack of hyenas and trying to muzzle my 'civilized' opinion”
Rather, the lone ‘sher’ is trying to muzzle the opinion of others (the hyenas), thus denying them their freedom of speech. In my view sher’s opinion, far from being ‘civilised’, is generally a confused diatribe. Reading Sher’s copious contributions on this site it is easy to spot the unmistakable underlying theme that runs through all that he writes.
“…and yes, your line: ‘you cannot hide from yourself’ is spooky”
Not spooky, but a truism, one that will catch up with all of us in the end. Perhaps the spooky part is that this realisation sends a chill down Sher’s spine. Truth will prevail.
Regards "
Billi,
Thanks for a thought-provoking post which is free of "… lies, swearing, slander, etc"
No Billi, I would never condone 'free speech' which has the three vices mentioned earlier as a part of it.
once again, I accept that free speech has few responsibilities attached to it.
thanks for admitting that I am alone (except for some erudite contributions by MastRam of lately)on this forum.
Now, I would disagree where muzzling 'free speech' of your friends is concerned. How can I do it? and do not tell me their posts has no "… lies, swearing, slander, etc"
Number of them have suggested. cajoled, threatened me so many times to go away and not to post of this apparently 'Sikh' bog.
My forefathers has been called dogs and religion i was born in slandered in every post. As far as lies are concerned, well that is an integral part of the khali-speak and that is what I focus most of the time i.e. trying to counter so many myths and lies concocted by khali minded historians and the so-called Sikh intellectuals.
I would also disagree very politely with your observation that my posts are not "civilised".
Would you please define the term civilised for me in TLH context?
Do you think it is intellectual honesty to label someone 'un-civilised' just because he/she happens to have an opinion different from yours?
"…a truism, one that will catch up with all of us in the end" you do not seem to be bothered or are you?
Sher
Sher claims “…I would never condone 'free speech' which has the three vices mentioned earlier as a part of it.”
Yet he goes on to contradict himself by posting a comment that is unfounded when he says “Now, I would disagree where muzzling 'free speech' of your friends is concerned” – what proof does he have that other people posting comments on this site are Billi’s friends? This type of slanderous comment cannot certainly be classed as ‘civilised.’
“… religion i was born in..” It would be helpful if Sher was to state what religion he was born in, and what religion he currently professes to follow.
“As far as lies are concerned, well that is an integral part of the khali-speak..” Does Sher believe lies are also an integral part of the Hindi-speak (such as RSS), and would he care to give some examples (in line with his belief in a ‘civilised’ discussion)?
And does Sher judge that there is anything about Sikhism and Sikh history (from the time of Guru Nanak) that is positive and to be admired? Surely, if he were to post some comments acknowledging the good aspects of Sikh history whilst disagreeing with some things, this might give some credence to his claim of being ‘civilised’?
Having himself used the term 'civilised' in his original comment, it is surprising that he is asking for a definition of it! The use of a dictionary is suggested.
Regards
Billi,
what proof does he have that other people posting comments on this site are Billi’s friends? This type of slanderous comment cannot certainly be classed as ‘civilised.’
Now you are trivialising the debate and trying to deviate from the serious issues being discussed by incessantly (and unnecessarily i must add) attacking every word i write.
but i would maintain my 'civilised' tone and try to address the 'pointless' issues you are raising.
I thought like-minded people could be loosely called 'friends'. how it can be "slanderous comment" is beyond my wildest imagination.
religion i was born in is hinduism and I have stated that numerous times. i do not follow any 'established' religion… i do not need to.
sikhism … well all the gurus whose banis are included in GGS preached universal brotherhood and crusaded against casteism. i admire sikhs fight, like so many other Indian communities, against intolerant, barbarian Islam.
i know the definition of the term 'civilised' just wanted to know YOUR definition as it differs from what i have known all my life.
Sher
Sher writes: "i admire sikhs fight, like so many other Indian communities, against intolerant, barbarian Islam."
Though I find this statement, of calling Islam to be barbarian and intolerant, to be tottaly outrageous, un-wise and out of the topic, but I am also not surprised to see this statement coming from one of the many Nationalistic Hindus where slandering, abusing Islam and Christianity is ubiquitous. I am Sikh and I don't have any problems with the authentic teachings of the Islam and Christianity. Infact I find Islam to be one of the best religion sans the terrorists who are ofcourse not true representative of Muslims.
Learn to respect each and every individual Sher irrespective of their religion. But unfortunately all you see is religion and neo-nazism in your Nationalism. Read the given links in below comment.
I am v glad H S you too my bait …exposing you ARE a Muslim barbarian here to fuel the fire of Hindu-Sikh strife.
"Infact I find Islam to be one of the best religion…"
Indeed, do you also condone the deeds of the barbarians following this "best" religion ? the latest deeds include the beheading of Sikhs in Pakistan's north west .
Shall i list one by one the 'benign' acts of Islam and its ruthless practitioners which they handed over to sikhs (forget their Hindu brethren) over the centuries as they refused to convert to YOUR Islam H S (haroon Syed?)? shall i start from Guru Arjun Dev or Shahib zadas? or shall i give link to late Gurbachan Singh Talib (former head SGPC) book about Muslim league attacks on Sikhs and Hindus 1947 partition?
Learn to respect each and every individual …" Look who is talking. the hate-monger in chief .
You remind me of Khuswant singh's observation of Bhindranwala:
Khushwant Singh wrote Bhindranwala : 'well understood that hate was a stronger passion than love: his list of hates was even more clearly and boldly spelt out. On top of the hate-list were apostates (patits) who dishonored emblems of the Khalsa by cutting their long hair…."
hate is a stronger passion than love…. no wonder you have decided to be a franchisee in this trade of hatred. Nafrat da vaipari
Sher
Sher, take a lesson in comprehension. Read the complete sentence. This is what I wrote: "Infact I find Islam to be one of the best religion sans the terrorists who are ofcourse not true representative of Muslims." You deliberately excluded the portion where I wrote that TERRORISTS ARE NOT TRUE REPRESENTATIVE OF ISLAM.
As I said I am a Sikh and a concerned and proud of my Quam. You can assume whatever you want to.
“I thought like-minded people could be loosely called 'friends', how it can be ‘slanderous comment’ is beyond my wildest imagination.”
It is unfortunate that Sher makes the same mistake again by describing other posters and Billi as being ‘like-minded’. By what authority and on what grounds does Sher make this statement? The only conclusion to be drawn is that Sher is knowingly making unsubstantiated statements, perhaps other people can judge whether this is a ‘civilised’ way of conducting debate…
Sher has surely sparked the curiosity of others when he says “…i do not follow any 'established' religion… i do not need to.” It would be fascinating to hear Sher’s opinion on the validity (or otherwise) of religion, and why he does not follow any ‘established’ religion.
“…GGS preached universal brotherhood… …crusaded against casteism… …fight against intolerant, barbarian Islam.” These comments undoubtedly show another side of Sher, perhaps if Sher were to balance his comments by acknowledging the good with the bad, people might understand him better…
Interesting to note that Sher has failed to respond to the following point made by Billi in the previous comment:
“As far as lies are concerned, well that is an integral part of the khali-speak..” Does Sher believe lies are also an integral part of the Hindi-speak (such as RSS), and would he care to give some examples (in line with his belief in a ‘civilised’ discussion)?
From another comment, Sher writes “hate is a stronger passion than love….” Perhaps Sher is yet to experience the might of the emotion that is love, again an unfortunate and inflammatory use of language…
Regards
Sher slips up and shows his true colours – this is what he wrote in response to a comment by Bik further down in the comments in this post:
"…. the sikh past is a story of one humiliation after another, one defeat after another. too many instances where sikhs (inc Gurus) acted like pansies."
Yet he always vehemently claims that he never attacks Sikhs or Sikhism. Sher has been well and truly exposed! Truth will prevail.
Regards
Billiji just reminding a typical khali psychopath that Sikhism is not without instances where they had to face humiliation and defeats. Yes, i stick to my words. the authentic history could hurt sometimes and there are too many events which would prick your "brave Khalsa" bubble. All of these events are well documented.
Why do you assume I would go on taking insults lying down by a racist bigot? Am I calling sikhs 'kuttey katoorey"? in every post of mine?
If i do you would call me 'typical hindu coward'.
You need to leash your fanatics Billi or stop complaining about the backlashes or criticism of the rising extremism in a sect/faith/panth started by the 10th Guru – Khalsa.
Sher
@Sher
For purely academic reasons, I would love to read about the humiliation that you are talking about. I have heard a lot from their side, not much from yours. If you don't want to provide details here, links to such websites would be helpful too. I could try looking for it up myself, but then I am feeling lazy.
My observation, take it for what its worth. We have to give credit to HS (Harpreet Singh) that at least his comments are 'in your face' vitriolic. Irrespective of whether they relate to the topic being discussed, he's not hiding his feelings. I feel sorry for people like Observer and Bijli who read all the comments and are blaming you for trying to ruin hindu-sikh relations and attacking their religion (not their exact words, just paraphrasing here). This behavior smacks of 'can dish it but can't take it' attitude. They are fine with the discussion as long as all hindus are being called dogs, but the minute someone mentions the sikhs, they are getting their panties in a bunch. Grow up kids….. hopefully some maturity will help you. In such a debate, discussing both religions is a fair game.
P.S : Reading the comments, its hard to believe that they are on a thread on veils :p
@ MastRam: You will follow those comments where you are able to speak something, however you and your comrade Sher will not show up or even slightly acknowledge on comments where whatever points you start fall flat. Whether it was about Sikhs' forefathers as Hindus, whether it was about Hindu as a religion, whether Hindi language being Hindus' patented or mother language, whether it was about suggestion of re-reading to Nimrata etc. Try going to these topics and see who left the thread and who deviated from the topic. I am sorry you and your comrade Sher leave a post in between and then start on new one by picking up isolated lines which you feel comfortable in arguing. I hope you go back and take a re-look. Anyways whether you call me Khalistanti or whatever, the point is I have got nothing to show you or deal with you. Whenever there's a blame on Indian govt., or even some non-Indian related issue like the "Ban on Burqa" post, you Hindus jump in as if you are representative of Indian governement.
PS: BTW, people like Sher and MastRam have reinforced the conviction in me by the articles and opinions I came across the internet, to show the real Hindutva face to readers, that your community has made all the mess and is the biggest culprit in any matter when compared with any other religion in India. Your terrorist tentacles have reached foreign shores too and right there in Canada, if I believe that is where you both (Sher for sure!!) are living. Search Canada Hindu Advocacy Group and read their neo-nazi opinions and warning based comments on their youtube channel.
When the now exposed Sher says "…. the sikh past is a story of one humiliation after another, one defeat after another. too many instances where sikhs (inc Gurus) acted like pansies" he makes it crystal clear what motivates him. Poor Sher is digging himself into a deeper hole by continuing to make ill judged comments such as
"…there are too many events which would prick your 'brave Khalsa' bubble"
"You need to leash your fanatics Billi…"
It would seem that being shown up for what he is has been too much to bear for Sher…
(Incidentally, it would be interesting to know if Sher believes in the existence of an equivalent "brave Hindu" bubble)
Regards
I don't know what Sher believes in, but the minute you step out of of your narrow, myopic religious horizon, you will realize that there aren't any "brave <insert any religion>" bubbles. That thought it almost as retarded as a martial race theory which the british propagated. But then who am I to push you out of your zone of comfort.
And in case you missed it, you may like to ponder over this comment:
"“understanding the responsibilities that come with exercising free speech”
What is it in this statement that Sher does not comprehend, that he finds confusing? Does Sher condone free speech that includes lies, swearing, slander, etc? Or does he accept that with free speech come certain responsibilities?
“…attacking me like a pack of hyenas and trying to muzzle my 'civilized' opinion”
Rather, the lone ‘sher’ is trying to muzzle the opinion of others (the hyenas), thus denying them their freedom of speech. In my view sher’s opinion, far from being ‘civilised’, is generally a confused diatribe. Reading Sher’s copious contributions on this site it is easy to spot the unmistakable underlying theme that runs through all that he writes.
“…and yes, your line: ‘you cannot hide from yourself’ is spooky”
Not spooky, but a truism, one that will catch up with all of us in the end. Perhaps the spooky part is that this realisation sends a chill down Sher’s spine. Truth will prevail.
Regards "
Billi,
Thanks for a thought-provoking post which is free of “… lies, swearing, slander, etc”
No Billi, I would never condone ‘free speech’ which has the three vices mentioned earlier as a part of it.
once again, I accept that free speech has few responsibilities attached to it.
thanks for admitting that I am alone (except for some erudite contributions by MastRam of lately)on this forum.
Now, I would disagree where muzzling ‘free speech’ of your friends is concerned. How can I do it? and do not tell me their posts has no “… lies, swearing, slander, etc”
Number of them have suggested. cajoled, threatened me so many times to go away and not to post of this apparently ‘Sikh’ bog.
My forefathers has been called dogs and religion i was born in slandered in every post. As far as lies are concerned, well that is an integral part of the khali-speak and that is what I focus most of the time i.e. trying to counter so many myths and lies concocted by khali minded historians and the so-called Sikh intellectuals.
I would also disagree very politely with your observation that my posts are not “civilised”.
Would you please define the term civilised for me in TLH context?
Do you think it is intellectual honesty to label someone ‘un-civilised’ just because he/she happens to have an opinion different from yours?
“…a truism, one that will catch up with all of us in the end” you do not seem to be bothered or are you?
Sher
Sher claims “…I would never condone 'free speech' which has the three vices mentioned earlier as a part of it.”
Yet he goes on to contradict himself by posting a comment that is unfounded when he says “Now, I would disagree where muzzling 'free speech' of your friends is concerned” – what proof does he have that other people posting comments on this site are Billi’s friends? This type of slanderous comment cannot certainly be classed as ‘civilised.’
“… religion i was born in..” It would be helpful if Sher was to state what religion he was born in, and what religion he currently professes to follow.
“As far as lies are concerned, well that is an integral part of the khali-speak..” Does Sher believe lies are also an integral part of the Hindi-speak (such as RSS), and would he care to give some examples (in line with his belief in a ‘civilised’ discussion)?
And does Sher judge that there is anything about Sikhism and Sikh history (from the time of Guru Nanak) that is positive and to be admired? Surely, if he were to post some comments acknowledging the good aspects of Sikh history whilst disagreeing with some things, this might give some credence to his claim of being ‘civilised’?
Having himself used the term 'civilised' in his original comment, it is surprising that he is asking for a definition of it! The use of a dictionary is suggested.
Regards
Billi,
what proof does he have that other people posting comments on this site are Billi’s friends? This type of slanderous comment cannot certainly be classed as ‘civilised.’
Now you are trivialising the debate and trying to deviate from the serious issues being discussed by incessantly (and unnecessarily i must add) attacking every word i write.
but i would maintain my 'civilised' tone and try to address the 'pointless' issues you are raising.
I thought like-minded people could be loosely called 'friends'. how it can be "slanderous comment" is beyond my wildest imagination.
religion i was born in is hinduism and I have stated that numerous times. i do not follow any 'established' religion… i do not need to.
sikhism … well all the gurus whose banis are included in GGS preached universal brotherhood and crusaded against casteism. i admire sikhs fight, like so many other Indian communities, against intolerant, barbarian Islam.
i know the definition of the term 'civilised' just wanted to know YOUR definition as it differs from what i have known all my life.
Sher
Sher writes: "i admire sikhs fight, like so many other Indian communities, against intolerant, barbarian Islam."
Though I find this statement, of calling Islam to be barbarian and intolerant, to be tottaly outrageous, un-wise and out of the topic, but I am also not surprised to see this statement coming from one of the many Nationalistic Hindus where slandering, abusing Islam and Christianity is ubiquitous. I am Sikh and I don't have any problems with the authentic teachings of the Islam and Christianity. Infact I find Islam to be one of the best religion sans the terrorists who are ofcourse not true representative of Muslims.
Learn to respect each and every individual Sher irrespective of their religion. But unfortunately all you see is religion and neo-nazism in your Nationalism. Read the given links in below comment.
I am v glad H S you too my bait …exposing you ARE a Muslim barbarian here to fuel the fire of Hindu-Sikh strife.
"Infact I find Islam to be one of the best religion…"
Indeed, do you also condone the deeds of the barbarians following this "best" religion ? the latest deeds include the beheading of Sikhs in Pakistan's north west .
Shall i list one by one the 'benign' acts of Islam and its ruthless practitioners which they handed over to sikhs (forget their Hindu brethren) over the centuries as they refused to convert to YOUR Islam H S (haroon Syed?)? shall i start from Guru Arjun Dev or Shahib zadas? or shall i give link to late Gurbachan Singh Talib (former head SGPC) book about Muslim league attacks on Sikhs and Hindus 1947 partition?
Learn to respect each and every individual …" Look who is talking. the hate-monger in chief .
You remind me of Khuswant singh's observation of Bhindranwala:
Khushwant Singh wrote Bhindranwala : 'well understood that hate was a stronger passion than love: his list of hates was even more clearly and boldly spelt out. On top of the hate-list were apostates (patits) who dishonored emblems of the Khalsa by cutting their long hair…."
hate is a stronger passion than love…. no wonder you have decided to be a franchisee in this trade of hatred. Nafrat da vaipari
Sher
Sher, take a lesson in comprehension. Read the complete sentence. This is what I wrote: "Infact I find Islam to be one of the best religion sans the terrorists who are ofcourse not true representative of Muslims." You deliberately excluded the portion where I wrote that TERRORISTS ARE NOT TRUE REPRESENTATIVE OF ISLAM.
As I said I am a Sikh and a concerned and proud of my Quam. You can assume whatever you want to.
“I thought like-minded people could be loosely called 'friends', how it can be ‘slanderous comment’ is beyond my wildest imagination.”
It is unfortunate that Sher makes the same mistake again by describing other posters and Billi as being ‘like-minded’. By what authority and on what grounds does Sher make this statement? The only conclusion to be drawn is that Sher is knowingly making unsubstantiated statements, perhaps other people can judge whether this is a ‘civilised’ way of conducting debate…
Sher has surely sparked the curiosity of others when he says “…i do not follow any 'established' religion… i do not need to.” It would be fascinating to hear Sher’s opinion on the validity (or otherwise) of religion, and why he does not follow any ‘established’ religion.
“…GGS preached universal brotherhood… …crusaded against casteism… …fight against intolerant, barbarian Islam.” These comments undoubtedly show another side of Sher, perhaps if Sher were to balance his comments by acknowledging the good with the bad, people might understand him better…
Interesting to note that Sher has failed to respond to the following point made by Billi in the previous comment:
“As far as lies are concerned, well that is an integral part of the khali-speak..” Does Sher believe lies are also an integral part of the Hindi-speak (such as RSS), and would he care to give some examples (in line with his belief in a ‘civilised’ discussion)?
From another comment, Sher writes “hate is a stronger passion than love….” Perhaps Sher is yet to experience the might of the emotion that is love, again an unfortunate and inflammatory use of language…
Regards
To get back on track:
Bik, Guru Teg Bahadur Singh sacrificed his life for another religion he did not believe in. So our supporting the veil even though we don't believe in it and some may even say condemn it, it would not be wrong to support it on religious freedom.
To get back on track:
Bik, Guru Teg Bahadur Singh sacrificed his life for another religion he did not believe in. So our supporting the veil even though we don't believe in it and some may even say condemn it, it would not be wrong to support it on religious freedom.
Religious freedom…. (and rights)
So you continue to support to fanatic Muslims who beheaded Sikhs in Pakistan in the name of their bigoted religion?
Do the victims of 'religious' fanaticism also have some religious freedom to practice their faith and ANY rights to live in areas dominated by loonies like Talibans (Pakistan, J&K, Sudan, Afganistan are just few names in this long list) and khalistanis?
Ever heard of Taslima Nasreen? i bet never. did you read the news about a University lecturer forced to wear Burqa IN INDIA (!!!!)?
Very selective in your rights campaigns Nimrata.
As far as GT Bahadur giving life for another religion is concerned; ask you a question.
IF IT WAS 'ANOTHER RELIGION' WHY G GOBIND SINGH WENT ALL THE WAY TO NANDED TO REQUEST MADHO DAS AKA BANDA BAHADUR WHO BELONGED TO ANOTHER RELIGION TO AVENGE HIS HUMILIATIONS?
And who back-stabbed Banda bahadur when he was cornered?
Sher
Sher
@Sher
You bring a good point. When sikhs were threatened in pakistan, you would think the babbars, self proclaimed defenders of the faith, would speak up and do something. After all, aren't they alleged to be hiding in pakistan ? Maybe Wadhwa Singh Babbar couldn't whine because his mouth was muzzled. But the internet kharkoos, especially khalistan supporters, weren't going berserk either. Its because they think that Pakistani help to their cause would give their movement another jump, like it did in the 80s. For them, Khalistan is a greater cause and can't be compromised just because a few sikhs were threatened.
You need to keep this in mind, it helps understand where they are coming from.
Religious freedom…. (and rights)
So you continue to support to fanatic Muslims who beheaded Sikhs in Pakistan in the name of their bigoted religion?
Do the victims of 'religious' fanaticism also have some religious freedom to practice their faith and ANY rights to live in areas dominated by loonies like Talibans (Pakistan, J&K, Sudan, Afganistan are just few names in this long list) and khalistanis?
Ever heard of Taslima Nasreen? i bet never. did you read the news about a University lecturer forced to wear Burqa IN INDIA (!!!!)?
Very selective in your rights campaigns Nimrata.
As far as GT Bahadur giving life for another religion is concerned; ask you a question.
IF IT WAS 'ANOTHER RELIGION' WHY G GOBIND SINGH WENT ALL THE WAY TO NANDED TO REQUEST MADHO DAS AKA BANDA BAHADUR WHO BELONGED TO ANOTHER RELIGION TO AVENGE HIS HUMILIATIONS?
And who back-stabbed Banda bahadur when he was cornered?
Sher
Sher
@Sher
You bring a good point. When sikhs were threatened in pakistan, you would think the babbars, self proclaimed defenders of the faith, would speak up and do something. After all, aren't they alleged to be hiding in pakistan ? Maybe Wadhwa Singh Babbar couldn't whine because his mouth was muzzled. But the internet kharkoos, especially khalistan supporters, weren't going berserk either. Its because they think that Pakistani help to their cause would give their movement another jump, like it did in the 80s. For them, Khalistan is a greater cause and can't be compromised just because a few sikhs were threatened.
You need to keep this in mind, it helps understand where they are coming from.
@H S (Harpreet Singh)
For very selfish reasons, I hope you are a die hard supporter of Khalistan and provide arguments, similar to the ones given by you above, on any discussion on khalistan. Its because of such rabid, foaming at the mouth supporters of Khalistan that the movement died its natural death. Keep up the good work internet kharkoo – a heartfelt thanks 🙂
@H S (Harpreet Singh)
For very selfish reasons, I hope you are a die hard supporter of Khalistan and provide arguments, similar to the ones given by you above, on any discussion on khalistan. Its because of such rabid, foaming at the mouth supporters of Khalistan that the movement died its natural death. Keep up the good work internet kharkoo – a heartfelt thanks 🙂
To quote an old quote"can't we all get along".
Where did you copy those lines from Mr. Sanghi? Your Swamis in RSS [Radical Satanic Sangh] only have heart to prepare a Indian National school syllabus which propagates neo-nazism and Hindutva.
Bloody big time joke!!!!
I donot know why there is so much hate & venom in ur heart for me.As i hve said before i am an 82 yr old retrd cop having a good time with this new technology.As for RSS it is only an org. that propagates its views like any other responsible outfit.Being born in layallpur,[now pakistan] i see nothing wrong if RSS advocates reunification of india,i do to,at least there is somebody who has the guts to sy it publicly.Not like dozens of outfits speweing hatred & venom in order to start communalism,& try to divide the country.H S i donot know u but ur posts r really ridiculuos.
To quote an old quote"can't we all get along".
Where did you copy those lines from Mr. Sanghi? Your Swamis in RSS [Radical Satanic Sangh] only have heart to prepare a Indian National school syllabus which propagates neo-nazism and Hindutva.
Bloody big time joke!!!!
I donot know why there is so much hate & venom in ur heart for me.As i hve said before i am an 82 yr old retrd cop having a good time with this new technology.As for RSS it is only an org. that propagates its views like any other responsible outfit.Being born in layallpur,[now pakistan] i see nothing wrong if RSS advocates reunification of india,i do to,at least there is somebody who has the guts to sy it publicly.Not like dozens of outfits speweing hatred & venom in order to start communalism,& try to divide the country.H S i donot know u but ur posts r really ridiculuos.
In case you don't realize, I think I should also mention this.
All sources above are non indian, in case you try to discredit them with some imagined ties to hindutva organizations. And these aren't youtube videos but actual articles, blogs by non Indians. And no, haven't included Kim Bolan either, now we don't want to banging your head on the wall do we.
Chew on it son
Chew on this son…
P.S. And I haven't referenced any article written by Kim Bolan
Oh dear. I'm not a gambling man but if I was I would be willing to place serious money on the notion that the Indian Hindu forums & blogs are very boring places indeed. They must be. Why else would so many Indian Hindus spend their time here trying to convince us non-Hindus that we are also Indian Hindus ?
But then again, it could have something to do with mental illness.
Actually, thinking about it, I've just re-read Sher and MastRam's messages and it definately is something to do with mental illness.
Mental illness is no laughing matter. It could strike any of us at any time. I hope it doesn't, but if it does get me I can see myself doing something very irrational and 'mental' such as going somewhere where I clearly don't belong….such as a Hindu forum……and start lecturing them on a subject I quite clearly don't have authority to lecture them on…i,e..their Hindu religion and their national identity as Hindus.
Dosanjh,
you need to point out what in my or mastRam's post "…could have something to do with mental illness".
Cannot put a logical reply to our queries Dosanjh? queries asked in a very respectable, civilised manner.
I am also surprised by the number of Khalistani virtual kharkoos who have nothing to offer to this . world but hatred for Hindus. haatred which they cannot rationalise…as far as commenting on 'non-Hindus' matters is concerned, i can comment on any issue dosanjh. i am not bound by fatwa or Hukamnama from a fanatic maulvi or poison spewing 'sant'.
You seem to be rattled as you do not have any replies or brains to participate in a debate. no brains was one of the reasons khalistanis were routed so easily and so swiftly.
khali-sthan (empty space) is in your brain Dosanjh…. indeed.
Sher
Sher writes: "I am also surprised by the number of Khalistani virtual kharkoos who have nothing to offer to this . world but hatred for Hindus. haatred which they cannot rationalise"
@ Sher: FOR YOU NOTHING WOULD SEEM TO BE RATIONAL. YOU NEITHER WANT TO SEE THE ACTUAL MIRROR IN FORM OF VIDEOS WHICH MAKES ME REALIZE THAT MIGHT BE HARD AT ANALYZING AND DEDUCTING RATIONALITY AS YOU ARE NOT BLIND. FURTHER, YOU NEVER MENTIONED ANYTHING ABOUT THE ARTICLES AND OPINION I GAVE IN PREVIOUS COMMENTS. AND THOSE ARE NOT OPINIONS FROM JUST ONE SOURCE, BUT THE LIKES OF NYTIMES, WASHTINGTON POST, GUARDIAN, BBC ETC. IF YOU WANT TO READ FROM ACADEMIA POINT OF VIEW, THEN THERE'S ANOTHER LINK FROM NYU.
SEE THE BELOW COMMENT FOR LINKS.
YOU ARE INDEED AN RSS' OR ANYOTHER HINDU ORGANIZATION'S VIRTUAL TERRORIST.
@Dosanjh : " where I clearly don't belong….such as a Hindu forum……and start lecturing them on a subject I quite clearly don't have authority to lecture them on"
Actually Dosanjh, I doubt if you have the 'authority' to lecture anyone even on Sikhism. This is an online forum for common folks to comment on, not some king's darbar where only people with 'authority' can speak up.
Oh dear. I'm not a gambling man but if I was I would be willing to place serious money on the notion that the Indian Hindu forums & blogs are very boring places indeed. They must be. Why else would so many Indian Hindus spend their time here trying to convince us non-Hindus that we are also Indian Hindus ?
But then again, it could have something to do with mental illness.
Actually, thinking about it, I've just re-read Sher and MastRam's messages and it definately is something to do with mental illness.
Mental illness is no laughing matter. It could strike any of us at any time. I hope it doesn't, but if it does get me I can see myself doing something very irrational and 'mental' such as going somewhere where I clearly don't belong….such as a Hindu forum……and start lecturing them on a subject I quite clearly don't have authority to lecture them on…i,e..their Hindu religion and their national identity as Hindus.
Dosanjh,
you need to point out what in my or mastRam's post "…could have something to do with mental illness".
Cannot put a logical reply to our queries Dosanjh? queries asked in a very respectable, civilised manner.
I am also surprised by the number of Khalistani virtual kharkoos who have nothing to offer to this . world but hatred for Hindus. haatred which they cannot rationalise…as far as commenting on 'non-Hindus' matters is concerned, i can comment on any issue dosanjh. i am not bound by fatwa or Hukamnama from a fanatic maulvi or poison spewing 'sant'.
You seem to be rattled as you do not have any replies or brains to participate in a debate. no brains was one of the reasons khalistanis were routed so easily and so swiftly.
khali-sthan (empty space) is in your brain Dosanjh…. indeed.
Sher
Sher writes: "I am also surprised by the number of Khalistani virtual kharkoos who have nothing to offer to this . world but hatred for Hindus. haatred which they cannot rationalise"
@ Sher: FOR YOU NOTHING WOULD SEEM TO BE RATIONAL. YOU NEITHER WANT TO SEE THE ACTUAL MIRROR IN FORM OF VIDEOS WHICH MAKES ME REALIZE THAT MIGHT BE HARD AT ANALYZING AND DEDUCTING RATIONALITY AS YOU ARE NOT BLIND. FURTHER, YOU NEVER MENTIONED ANYTHING ABOUT THE ARTICLES AND OPINION I GAVE IN PREVIOUS COMMENTS. AND THOSE ARE NOT OPINIONS FROM JUST ONE SOURCE, BUT THE LIKES OF NYTIMES, WASHTINGTON POST, GUARDIAN, BBC ETC. IF YOU WANT TO READ FROM ACADEMIA POINT OF VIEW, THEN THERE'S ANOTHER LINK FROM NYU.
SEE THE BELOW COMMENT FOR LINKS.
YOU ARE INDEED AN RSS' OR ANYOTHER HINDU ORGANIZATION'S VIRTUAL TERRORIST.
@Dosanjh : " where I clearly don't belong….such as a Hindu forum……and start lecturing them on a subject I quite clearly don't have authority to lecture them on"
Actually Dosanjh, I doubt if you have the 'authority' to lecture anyone even on Sikhism. This is an online forum for common folks to comment on, not some king's darbar where only people with 'authority' can speak up.
@Dosanjh
I like Sher's tenacity and interest in Sikhism.
He is actually not a Hindu, my hypothesis is that he is actually a Sikh. And who has been declared tankhaiya. He is here for revenge. I say let's accept him back into the community – we need more analytical thinkers 🙂
@Dosanjh
I like Sher's tenacity and interest in Sikhism.
He is actually not a Hindu, my hypothesis is that he is actually a Sikh. And who has been declared tankhaiya. He is here for revenge. I say let's accept him back into the community – we need more analytical thinkers 🙂
@ iSingh: I am sorry but I don't agree with you that Sher is 'analytical', and WOULD NEVER AGREE THAT HE IS 'THINKER'. He's more like an army man who are confined to the thinking capability of binary form – 'enemy' and 'friend'. There's no limit of thinking defined outside these two terms. IT IS CALLED RIGID THINKING FOR MISSION, AND NOT ANALYTICAL. Perhaps you got swayed by his cosmetically explained fictious stories and concerns.
@ iSingh: I am sorry but I don't agree with you that Sher is 'analytical', and WOULD NEVER AGREE THAT HE IS 'THINKER'. He's more like an army man who are confined to the thinking capability of binary form – 'enemy' and 'friend'. There's no limit of thinking defined outside these two terms. IT IS CALLED RIGID THINKING FOR MISSION, AND NOT ANALYTICAL. Perhaps you got swayed by his cosmetically explained fictious stories and concerns.
TLH is showing me a lot of laad pyaar, it isn't allowing my comments :p
I feel deprived that I can respond to HS' intellectual observations and comments.
Oohhh, I can't believe this, I am back in business baby !!
@HS : "Your terrorist tentacles have reached foreign shores too and right there in Canada"
Oh, TLH is showing me a lot of laad pyaar by selectively deleting my comments. No issues HS, for your sake, I'll republish them. I owe you this much as it seems I didn't come through and satisfy your feeling of entitlement to my replies on every single one of your rants. You are talking about terrorist tentacles reaching Canada, let me give you a small list of articles that do agree with that comment of yours, the only difference is that they are talking about sikh terrorism. And these aren't Indian sources, lest you try discrediting them with links to hindutva. ……….
Chew on this son…just remove the spaces and enjoy another viewpoint, 'slightly' different from your own. Above you were commenting that Sher confines his thinking to his own rigid stance. Lets see you give this a try. You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk yourself ?
P.S. And I purposely haven't referenced any article written by Kim Bolan
http :// www . the trumpet . c o m/?q=3980.2206.0.0
http :// www .ma ckenzi einstitute .com /2 003 /ot her_peoples _wars1 . htm
http :// www. theepo chtimes . com /n2 /co ntent/ view/34375/
http :/ / www . csis-scrs. gc.ca/ pbl ctns/prspctvs /200004 -eng . asp
http://www . cbc.ca /news/ back ground/ sikh-politics-ca nada/index. html
http://www . informa world . com/ sm pp /con tent~db=all~con tent=a7377 27164
http://www . spitt oon .org /arch ives / 6125
TLH is showing me a lot of laad pyaar, it isn't allowing my comments :p
I feel deprived that I can respond to HS' intellectual observations and comments.
Oohhh, I can't believe this, I am back in business baby !!
@Mastram: How about the following, you or Sher never replied to this comment earlier. It encompasses views of the whole world's media and views of the erudite men, well aware of this community, like Amartya Sen.
"http://www .friendsofsouthasia. org/textbook/AmartyaSen_On_Hindutva.html" —->View of Dr. Amartya Sen in his book
"http://www. nytimes. com/2002/12/30/opinion/30FRIE.html" —-> YEAH BABY, THIS IS NYTIMES.COM SHOWING THE REAL FACE OF HINDU PROPAGANDISTS
"http://www. nytimes. com/2008/11/12/world/asia/12india.html?_r=1" —-> ANOTHER NYTIMES.COM
"http://in .reuters. com/article/idINIndia-36546420081117" ———> HINDU TERRORISM IS INDEED PANDORA'S BOX, REUTERS!
"http:// news.bbc.co.uk /2/hi/7739541.stm" ———> HINDU TERRORISTS INCLUDE MILITARY MEN AND TRAINING, BBC!
"http://www .guardian.co.uk /world/2006/jun/15/india.schoolsworldwide" —> AND THIS IS GUARDIAN.CO.UK SHOWING THE TRUE COLOURS OF HINDUS
"http:// indiatoday.intoday.in /site/Story/105546/India/saffron-brigades-terror-plots-exposed.html"
"http:// ibnlive.in. com/news/rss-members-behind-hyderabad-ajmer-blasts/115372-3.html" –> RSS INVOLVED IN HYDERABAD MASJID AND AJMER DARGAH BLASTS
"http:// ibnlive.in. com/news/army-in-crisis-over-saffron-terror-stain/77589-3.html?fads=ads" —–> HAND OF INDIAN ARMY IN HELPING HINDU TERRORISM
"http:// www .washingtontimes. com/news/2008/nov/21/probe-reveals-hindu-terror-cell/"
"http://www .atimes. com/ind-pak/AJ30Df02.html"
"http ://india-facts. com/news/hindu-terror/20081225104/indias-hindu-groups-three-bodies-one-soul/"
"http ://indianterrorism.bravepages. com/extremist%20funding.htm" —> HINDU EXTREMIST GROUPS RECEIVING FUNDS FROM HINDUS IN EUROPE AND NORTH AMERICA
"http://www .hindu. com/2007/02/14/stories/2007021415630400.htm" —-> SEE HOW HINDUS ARE PROMOTING HATRED AGAINST DALITS AND MINORITIES IN STATE FUNDED SCHOOLS
THERE ARE SO MANY NEWS ARTICLES AND OPINIONS ABOUT THE HINDUS AND HINDUTVA CHANGING HISTORY, OR SPREADING HATRED AGAINST MINORITIES, FURTHERING THEIR PROPAGANDA IN INDIA THROUGH GOVERNMENT MACHINERY….just read these below links which contain links to multiple such fact based opinions and articles.
"http://www .sacw. net/HateEducation/index.html"
"http ://indianterrorism.bravepages. com/hindufundamentalismindex.htm"
LEAVING APART THE OPINIONS AND ARTICLES, IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN ASKING IT FROM ACADEMIA, HERE'S EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW OF HINDU TERRORISM (MINUS THE LATEST ACTIVITIES)
"http://www .nyu. edu/classes/keefer/joe/reuben2.html"
Let's see what name you give to this walk now!!!!
PS: And I purposely, too, didn't include the opinions of the authors you would like comparing to Kim Bolan. I HAVE ALSO AVOIDED YOUTUBE VIDEOS AS YOUR COMRADE SHER IS AFRAID OF THE MIRROR AND TRUTH.
Haroon Syed aka H S I can blow every lame effort of yours to paint Hindus as terrorist and fanatic Muslims (and their khali lapdogs) as holy angels to smithereens.
I am bloody spoiled for choice.
shall i start with whopping 92000 pages of wikileaks???
shall i google bhindranwale in 'books' and list almost every book calling that fanatic a 'extremist…terrorist… ?
i can also quote translation of specific verses from quran asking for non-muslims aka kaafirs (that includes Sikhs for bloody obvious reasons) to be killed, maimed, raped, looted, converted, etc?
or shall i list incidents of barbarianism as practiced on Sikhs by Muslims ?
do you want me to list countries and communities against whom your "best religion" islam is at war (practically every country where Muslims co-habit with other communities inc Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, etc)?
choice is yours jehadi nazi
Sher
@HS : "Your terrorist tentacles have reached foreign shores too and right there in Canada"
Oh, TLH is showing me a lot of laad pyaar by selectively deleting my comments. No issues HS, for your sake, I'll republish them. I owe you this much as it seems I didn't come through and satisfy your feeling of entitlement to my replies on every single one of your rants. You are talking about terrorist tentacles reaching Canada, let me give you a small list of articles that do agree with that comment of yours, the only difference is that they are talking about sikh terrorism. And these aren't Indian sources, lest you try discrediting them with links to hindutva. ……….
Chew on this son…just remove the spaces and enjoy another viewpoint, 'slightly' different from your own. Above you were commenting that Sher confines his thinking to his own rigid stance. Lets see you give this a try. You can talk the talk, but can you walk the walk yourself ?
P.S. And I purposely haven't referenced any article written by Kim Bolan
http :// www . the trumpet . c o m/?q=3980.2206.0.0
http :// www .ma ckenzi einstitute .com /2 003 /ot her_peoples _wars1 . htm
http :// www. theepo chtimes . com /n2 /co ntent/ view/34375/
http :/ / www . csis-scrs. gc.ca/ pbl ctns/prspctvs /200004 -eng . asp
http://www . cbc.ca /news/ back ground/ sikh-politics-ca nada/index. html
http://www . informa world . com/ sm pp /con tent~db=all~con tent=a7377 27164
http://www . spitt oon .org /arch ives / 6125
@Mastram: How about the following, you or Sher never replied to this comment earlier. It encompasses views of the whole world's media and views of the erudite men, well aware of this community, like Amartya Sen.
"http://www .friendsofsouthasia. org/textbook/AmartyaSen_On_Hindutva.html" —->View of Dr. Amartya Sen in his book
"http://www. nytimes. com/2002/12/30/opinion/30FRIE.html" —-> YEAH BABY, THIS IS NYTIMES.COM SHOWING THE REAL FACE OF HINDU PROPAGANDISTS
"http://www. nytimes. com/2008/11/12/world/asia/12india.html?_r=1" —-> ANOTHER NYTIMES.COM
"http://in .reuters. com/article/idINIndia-36546420081117" ———> HINDU TERRORISM IS INDEED PANDORA'S BOX, REUTERS!
"http:// news.bbc.co.uk /2/hi/7739541.stm" ———> HINDU TERRORISTS INCLUDE MILITARY MEN AND TRAINING, BBC!
"http://www .guardian.co.uk /world/2006/jun/15/india.schoolsworldwide" —> AND THIS IS GUARDIAN.CO.UK SHOWING THE TRUE COLOURS OF HINDUS
"http:// indiatoday.intoday.in /site/Story/105546/India/saffron-brigades-terror-plots-exposed.html"
"http:// ibnlive.in. com/news/rss-members-behind-hyderabad-ajmer-blasts/115372-3.html" –> RSS INVOLVED IN HYDERABAD MASJID AND AJMER DARGAH BLASTS
"http:// ibnlive.in. com/news/army-in-crisis-over-saffron-terror-stain/77589-3.html?fads=ads" —–> HAND OF INDIAN ARMY IN HELPING HINDU TERRORISM
"http:// www .washingtontimes. com/news/2008/nov/21/probe-reveals-hindu-terror-cell/"
"http://www .atimes. com/ind-pak/AJ30Df02.html"
"http ://india-facts. com/news/hindu-terror/20081225104/indias-hindu-groups-three-bodies-one-soul/"
"http ://indianterrorism.bravepages. com/extremist%20funding.htm" —> HINDU EXTREMIST GROUPS RECEIVING FUNDS FROM HINDUS IN EUROPE AND NORTH AMERICA
"http://www .hindu. com/2007/02/14/stories/2007021415630400.htm" —-> SEE HOW HINDUS ARE PROMOTING HATRED AGAINST DALITS AND MINORITIES IN STATE FUNDED SCHOOLS
THERE ARE SO MANY NEWS ARTICLES AND OPINIONS ABOUT THE HINDUS AND HINDUTVA CHANGING HISTORY, OR SPREADING HATRED AGAINST MINORITIES, FURTHERING THEIR PROPAGANDA IN INDIA THROUGH GOVERNMENT MACHINERY….just read these below links which contain links to multiple such fact based opinions and articles.
"http://www .sacw. net/HateEducation/index.html"
"http ://indianterrorism.bravepages. com/hindufundamentalismindex.htm"
LEAVING APART THE OPINIONS AND ARTICLES, IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN ASKING IT FROM ACADEMIA, HERE'S EVERYTHING YOU NEED TO KNOW OF HINDU TERRORISM (MINUS THE LATEST ACTIVITIES)
"http://www .nyu. edu/classes/keefer/joe/reuben2.html"
Let's see what name you give to this walk now!!!!
PS: And I purposely, too, didn't include the opinions of the authors you would like comparing to Kim Bolan. I HAVE ALSO AVOIDED YOUTUBE VIDEOS AS YOUR COMRADE SHER IS AFRAID OF THE MIRROR AND TRUTH.
Haroon Syed aka H S I can blow every lame effort of yours to paint Hindus as terrorist and fanatic Muslims (and their khali lapdogs) as holy angels to smithereens.
I am bloody spoiled for choice.
shall i start with whopping 92000 pages of wikileaks???
shall i google bhindranwale in ‘books’ and list almost every book calling that fanatic a ‘extremist…terrorist… ?
i can also quote translation of specific verses from quran asking for non-muslims aka kaafirs (that includes Sikhs for bloody obvious reasons) to be killed, maimed, raped, looted, converted, etc?
or shall i list incidents of barbarianism as practiced on Sikhs by Muslims ?
do you want me to list countries and communities against whom your “best religion” islam is at war (practically every country where Muslims co-habit with other communities inc Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, etc)?
choice is yours jehadi nazi
Sher
@H S
You have no idea how much your 'references' delight me. Thanks for all the research. Wish you could have done the same for Kagan 😉 (j/k)
@ iSingh: np!
Perhaps the videos on youtube, which show these opinions in actions, could delight you more. I just didn't put their links because Sher and his comrades, who specifically showed aversion for them, are afraid of seeing the mirror which shows the truth. As Guru Nanak said – "Truth is high, higher still is truthful living".
Well, I think you should ignore Sher et al. Save your energies for more productive discussion.
Its a pity that we have to wait for the site admins to spur discussions about new topics with their posts.
iSingh
You have no idea how much your 'references' delight me"
I thought those links are about terrorism, mayhem, violence, hatred, etc. How such negative details can 'delight" you?
Your comment comment exposes your mentality. as far as H S is concerned, he has one point, everything about the word 'Hindu' needs to be hated. he is doing so with zeal often shown by psychopaths. his hatred for the community Sikh gurus belonged to and TRUTH may be misplaced making me wonder whether he is a sikh in the first pace or not.
Go on hating fellows. does not bother me. yes, truth must prevail as Billi has prophesied.
SATYA MAIV JAITE
Right?
Sher
@Sher
Unfortunately, all the respect you gained due to your analytical thoughts, knowledge of other cultures etc has been squandered by your overwhelming irrationality. That is totally fine – human beings are irrational and your life experiences have given you a perspective, and tendency to ignore counter-view is totally human.
The sentence that you quoted was in reference to a different conversation that HS and I had on a different topic. And it had nothing to do with the content. You are free to browse the forums to make a sense of that. Or continue to believe in your single minded approach.
Btw you are the most negative individual I have encountered on the forums. May be you were hoping for that recognition.
@H S
You have no idea how much your 'references' delight me. Thanks for all the research. Wish you could have done the same for Kagan 😉 (j/k)
@ iSingh: np!
Perhaps the videos on youtube, which show these opinions in actions, could delight you more. I just didn't put their links because Sher and his comrades, who specifically showed aversion for them, are afraid of seeing the mirror which shows the truth. As Guru Nanak said – "Truth is high, higher still is truthful living".
Well, I think you should ignore Sher et al. Save your energies for more productive discussion.
Its a pity that we have to wait for the site admins to spur discussions about new topics with their posts.
iSingh
You have no idea how much your 'references' delight me"
I thought those links are about terrorism, mayhem, violence, hatred, etc. How such negative details can 'delight" you?
Your comment comment exposes your mentality. as far as H S is concerned, he has one point, everything about the word 'Hindu' needs to be hated. he is doing so with zeal often shown by psychopaths. his hatred for the community Sikh gurus belonged to and TRUTH may be misplaced making me wonder whether he is a sikh in the first pace or not.
Go on hating fellows. does not bother me. yes, truth must prevail as Billi has prophesied.
SATYA MAIV JAITE
Right?
Sher
@Sher
Unfortunately, all the respect you gained due to your analytical thoughts, knowledge of other cultures etc has been squandered by your overwhelming irrationality. That is totally fine – human beings are irrational and your life experiences have given you a perspective, and tendency to ignore counter-view is totally human.
The sentence that you quoted was in reference to a different conversation that HS and I had on a different topic. And it had nothing to do with the content. You are free to browse the forums to make a sense of that. Or continue to believe in your single minded approach.
Btw you are the most negative individual I have encountered on the forums. May be you were hoping for that recognition.
"the word 'Hindu' needs to be hated…………. . his hatred for the community Sikh gurus belonged "
——————————
^ Oh here we go….that ol' chestnut. That classic argument that if a Sikh dare express the natural desire and human right of every person on earth : The desire to be free……Then that Sikh is obviously a TERRORIST. Worse still a BEARDIE TERRORIST. A BEARDIE TERRORIST FULL OF HATRED that will probably EAT YOUR BABIES if given the chance.
Its your own fault 'H S'. You should know by now….especially after the lesson they taught us in 1984…that we should our limits….know our place in this master / slave relationship. In this relationship they (and I still can't understand why 'they' feel the need to be here on a Sikh blog trying desperately to convince us Sikhs that we are Indian Hindus like 'them') tell us to jump and we ask 'how high'. We do not have minds of our own and aspirations of our own. Its our own fault for being sandal wearing beardies. It scares the children.
Its your own fault 'H S'."
No Dosanjh, it is YOUR fault.
You insist on generalisation. Like a typical khali keyboard soldier, you hit 'sikh quam in danger' button once you have no argument or coherent reply to discomforting questions.
And who appointed YOU a CASTEIST propagandist to speak for the whole Sikh community?
How you have ascertained Sikhs living in Punjab have "The desire to be free…."
What are the parameters of 'azadi'? Is it about suppressing other faiths in Punjab? Is it about killing leaders of the other faiths both in Punjab and overseas? Is it about running your diktats even over bureaucracy in the state? is it about communalisation of every institute in the area of your dominance ? is it about constructing huge Gurudwaras illegally or is it about slandering other faiths?
Congratulations! Sikhs are doing all this and much more in Punjab today.
And yes the vanquished Khalistani terrorists killed babies too.
Sher
“You insist on generalisation… …once you have no argument or coherent reply to discomforting questions.”
Sher has again exposed his disingenuous use of flawed arguments to support his prejudiced opinions. Sher starts by making negative comments about “a typical khali keyboard soldier” and then concludes his comments by attributing these very negative comments to Sikhs in general (“Sikhs are doing all this and much more in Punjab today”).
“…slandering other faiths”
Isn’t this exactly what Sher has been doing in his comment?
“And yes the vanquished Khalistani terrorists killed babies too.“
It seems that Sher has run out of patience and no longer has the time to couch his views in clever sounding words…
Regards
(PS Billi awaits your response under the comment posted 4 days ago)
Billi pounces once again….not her (?) home grown mice like Haroon and Dosanjh but on Sher 😉
Every word i write …..i stand exposed. call it wardrobe malfunction or Billi's obsession with this Sher. "Why are you so obsessed with me…."
Negative comments about crack khali keyboard commandos …. Billi I do not have anything positive to say about such NEGATIVE elements who have nothing but invectives and threats of violence for anyone who dares to present counter point to their concocted history and distorted interpretation of Sikh religious text.
Prick their khali (!!!!) balloons and you get to hear sounds like "Kuttay…!!!! mey tera khoon pee jaoonga!!!" maybe canine blood is a fav drink with khali swines, but civilised world rejects such violent ideologies with negative sentiment called loathing.
No other religious sect patronises 'religious' fanaticism as certain Sikh communities do. Canadian Sikhs (and Sunni Muslims) are one example which comes to my mind.
Whatever you do Billi & Co; you cannot justify Sikh extremism. similarly, no one can justify rising wave of violent backlash by certain Hindu loonies. Religious intolerance, bigotry needs to be condemned.
Billi, how do i slander a faith which I had praised in an earlier post? A FAITH not RELIGION and a faith/panth/samparday as reflected in Nankian philosophy.
Yes, Punjabi Sikhs are indulging in naked repression of other faiths, distorting history, arm-twisting bureaucracy, casteism, etc.
As usual, i can give tens of references to back my assertions. Let me know which point I need to substantiate with references from media articles.
I would repeat, khalistani terrorists killed babies too.
H S had challenged me by asserting that more sikhs had died in Kanishka bombing by Khali psychopaths. i had to give the list of names and it had over 80 names of innocent children slaughtered by khalistani thugs in a mind-numbing atrocity.
Billi, i try to respond to each and every point you raise but really pressed for time. one sher and so many…. "others'.
Now i have that resident Hindu-baiter H S on my radar.
Sher
"..threats of violence" —> Here you go again Sher with your unsubstantiated selfish attacks. Which threat of violence are you talking about? Is giving links and proofs to your Hindu Nationalists' terrorist activities a threat of violence? In your lingo and education anything which suits your purpose is possible perhaps.
"H S had challenged me by asserting that more sikhs had died in Kanishka bombing.." —> Another example, of your lost and rigid mind, that you don't know who challenged whom. Take it easy buddy I never challenged that. IT IS RATHER YOU WHO IS OBSESSED AS SEEN WITH THIS STATEMENT.
Regarding your claim of Sikhs' distorting and concocting history, could you provide evidence? I provided multitude of evidence to you about Hindus concocting and distorting history not only in India but in California.
Lastly your language and tone recently has been very stereotypical of zealot Hindu militants speaking and shouting on top of their voice with Tridents (Trishuls) in their hand ready to kill'em all, if only it was in India and not on net. Cool down buddy and make a visit to your Hindu Temple in Surrey or where ever you are staying in Canada. I am sure your Hindu Temple are not like your RSS Shakhas and camps, which are factories for producing people like you running high on their hate and anger against the minorities to kill'em all. Now deny that you don't live in Canada?
here comes my favourite
"Billi I do not have anything positive to say about such NEGATIVE elements who have nothing but invectives and threats of violence for anyone…"
where did i say Haroon Syed aka H S is giving "threats of vioence"? Why are you so defensive, so guilt-conscious? relax, take kachera out of your ……Deep breath would help too says Swami Ram dev. 🙂
Sikhs asked for corrections in history in california too. so did Muslims and Christians. perfectly fine with me. why are YOU so perturbed only about Hindus? jaundiced perspective they call it or saffron?
my hindu tempes…. na, i do not own any and na I do not live in Canada. You are wrong AGAIN H S aka Harpreet singh aka Haroon Syed.
Quick questions: you may be able to answer this, Did G Gobind singh prescribed long breakanwala kachera (jocks with breaks) as another anti-thesis to muslims who do not wear any?
also, what do you muslim guys do if you have a little bit of plumbing problem drip…drippp ?
Sher
Since Sher is unwilling or unable to respond to many of the points raised by Billi, perhaps he can manage answers (mostly yes/no) to the following:
Does Sher agree that the vast majority of Sikhs (99%) across the world are law abiding, hard working and good citizens wherever they happen to be living?
Does Sher concur with the undisputable fact that the Sikhs contribution during India’s struggle for freedom during British rule has been inordinate compared to their population?
Are Hindus a superior people to Sikhs, Muslims, Dalits or Christians?
Is Sikhism an integral part of the Hindu religion, or a separate religion in it’s own right?
Is it not the case that there extremist elements in equal measure in the ‘followers’ of all religions, including Hinduism?
Does Sher condemn extremist elements in all faiths, including those belonging to the Hindu faith?
Are Hindus not indulging in naked repression of other faiths, distorting history, arm-twisting bureaucracy, casteism, etc?
Is Sher aware of any acts of terrorism perpetrated by Hindus?
Hindu terrorists have also killed babies. What is Sher’s response to this?
Does Sher believe in a balanced and constructive dialogue, free of abusive and inflammatory language? (question asked in light of comments such as these made by him: “… relax, take kachera out of your …..” and “what do you muslim guys do if you have a little bit of plumbing problem drip…drippp ?”)
Finally, Billi suggests that Sher appears to exhibit symptoms of a delusional state when he says "Why are you so obsessed with me…."; or could it be paranoia (being suspicious without reason, and believing that others are trying to harm you in some way)…
Regards
Anytime Billi anytime, i can answer these questions provided you agree to do the same with my questionnaire.
yes?
Sher
Sher, by now only fully exposed for what he really believes in, stands cornered and out of answers and ideas; unlike a true sher he is unable to respond to perfectly legitimate questions, and has chosen to resort to the use of gimmicks used by politicians to try and wriggle out of his difficulty.
Sher may not be aware, but unlike what might go in Parliament House, true debate does not require horse trading, tit for tat, or hiding behind rhetoric.
Truth will prevail.
Regards
why are you backing out my dear friend.
stands cornered and out of answers and ideas" thats your observation and you have every right to form such opinion about me. but i think i have been able to answer all questions time permitting. do not ask me to address every minor, irrelevant query you pose.
I fail to understand why you are reluctant to answer my questions.
Anyway, i would take up your questions shortly.
Sher
Sher, don't talk to me about what the Sikhs in Punjab feel. International human rights organisations estimate that your India murdered a quarter of a million of them. For your country to first kill the ones that knew about Sikhism and could teach Sikhism and its history to the newer generation……and then claim that the new generation have no interest in true Sikh history and its independance…….while ignoring the fact that there is nobody left to teach them that history…..nobody left coz you killed them all, is a disgrace.
"the word 'Hindu' needs to be hated…………. . his hatred for the community Sikh gurus belonged "
——————————
^ Oh here we go….that ol' chestnut. That classic argument that if a Sikh dare express the natural desire and human right of every person on earth : The desire to be free……Then that Sikh is obviously a TERRORIST. Worse still a BEARDIE TERRORIST. A BEARDIE TERRORIST FULL OF HATRED that will probably EAT YOUR BABIES if given the chance.
Its your own fault 'H S'. You should know by now….especially after the lesson they taught us in 1984…that we should our limits….know our place in this master / slave relationship. In this relationship they (and I still can't understand why 'they' feel the need to be here on a Sikh blog trying desperately to convince us Sikhs that we are Indian Hindus like 'them') tell us to jump and we ask 'how high'. We do not have minds of our own and aspirations of our own. Its our own fault for being sandal wearing beardies. It scares the children.
Its your own fault 'H S'."
No Dosanjh, it is YOUR fault.
You insist on generalisation. Like a typical khali keyboard soldier, you hit 'sikh quam in danger' button once you have no argument or coherent reply to discomforting questions.
And who appointed YOU a CASTEIST propagandist to speak for the whole Sikh community?
How you have ascertained Sikhs living in Punjab have "The desire to be free…."
What are the parameters of 'azadi'? Is it about suppressing other faiths in Punjab? Is it about killing leaders of the other faiths both in Punjab and overseas? Is it about running your diktats even over bureaucracy in the state? is it about communalisation of every institute in the area of your dominance ? is it about constructing huge Gurudwaras illegally or is it about slandering other faiths?
Congratulations! Sikhs are doing all this and much more in Punjab today.
And yes the vanquished Khalistani terrorists killed babies too.
Sher
“You insist on generalisation… …once you have no argument or coherent reply to discomforting questions.”
Sher has again exposed his disingenuous use of flawed arguments to support his prejudiced opinions. Sher starts by making negative comments about “a typical khali keyboard soldier” and then concludes his comments by attributing these very negative comments to Sikhs in general (“Sikhs are doing all this and much more in Punjab today”).
“…slandering other faiths”
Isn’t this exactly what Sher has been doing in his comment?
“And yes the vanquished Khalistani terrorists killed babies too.“
It seems that Sher has run out of patience and no longer has the time to couch his views in clever sounding words…
Regards
(PS Billi awaits your response under the comment posted 4 days ago)
Billi pounces once again….not her (?) home grown mice like Haroon and Dosanjh but on Sher 😉
Every word i write …..i stand exposed. call it wardrobe malfunction or Billi's obsession with this Sher. "Why are you so obsessed with me…."
Negative comments about crack khali keyboard commandos …. Billi I do not have anything positive to say about such NEGATIVE elements who have nothing but invectives and threats of violence for anyone who dares to present counter point to their concocted history and distorted interpretation of Sikh religious text.
Prick their khali (!!!!) balloons and you get to hear sounds like "Kuttay…!!!! mey tera khoon pee jaoonga!!!" maybe canine blood is a fav drink with khali swines, but civilised world rejects such violent ideologies with negative sentiment called loathing.
No other religious sect patronises 'religious' fanaticism as certain Sikh communities do. Canadian Sikhs (and Sunni Muslims) are one example which comes to my mind.
Whatever you do Billi & Co; you cannot justify Sikh extremism. similarly, no one can justify rising wave of violent backlash by certain Hindu loonies. Religious intolerance, bigotry needs to be condemned.
Billi, how do i slander a faith which I had praised in an earlier post? A FAITH not RELIGION and a faith/panth/samparday as reflected in Nankian philosophy.
Yes, Punjabi Sikhs are indulging in naked repression of other faiths, distorting history, arm-twisting bureaucracy, casteism, etc.
As usual, i can give tens of references to back my assertions. Let me know which point I need to substantiate with references from media articles.
I would repeat, khalistani terrorists killed babies too.
H S had challenged me by asserting that more sikhs had died in Kanishka bombing by Khali psychopaths. i had to give the list of names and it had over 80 names of innocent children slaughtered by khalistani thugs in a mind-numbing atrocity.
Billi, i try to respond to each and every point you raise but really pressed for time. one sher and so many…. "others'.
Now i have that resident Hindu-baiter H S on my radar.
Sher
"..threats of violence" —> Here you go again Sher with your unsubstantiated selfish attacks. Which threat of violence are you talking about? Is giving links and proofs to your Hindu Nationalists' terrorist activities a threat of violence? In your lingo and education anything which suits your purpose is possible perhaps.
"H S had challenged me by asserting that more sikhs had died in Kanishka bombing.." —> Another example, of your lost and rigid mind, that you don't know who challenged whom. Take it easy buddy I never challenged that. IT IS RATHER YOU WHO IS OBSESSED AS SEEN WITH THIS STATEMENT.
Regarding your claim of Sikhs' distorting and concocting history, could you provide evidence? I provided multitude of evidence to you about Hindus concocting and distorting history not only in India but in California.
Lastly your language and tone recently has been very stereotypical of zealot Hindu militants speaking and shouting on top of their voice with Tridents (Trishuls) in their hand ready to kill'em all, if only it was in India and not on net. Cool down buddy and make a visit to your Hindu Temple in Surrey or where ever you are staying in Canada. I am sure your Hindu Temple are not like your RSS Shakhas and camps, which are factories for producing people like you running high on their hate and anger against the minorities to kill'em all. Now deny that you don't live in Canada?
here comes my favourite
"Billi I do not have anything positive to say about such NEGATIVE elements who have nothing but invectives and threats of violence for anyone…"
where did i say Haroon Syed aka H S is giving "threats of vioence"? Why are you so defensive, so guilt-conscious? relax, take kachera out of your ……Deep breath would help too says Swami Ram dev. 🙂
Sikhs asked for corrections in history in california too. so did Muslims and Christians. perfectly fine with me. why are YOU so perturbed only about Hindus? jaundiced perspective they call it or saffron?
my hindu tempes…. na, i do not own any and na I do not live in Canada. You are wrong AGAIN H S aka Harpreet singh aka Haroon Syed.
Quick questions: you may be able to answer this, Did G Gobind singh prescribed long breakanwala kachera (jocks with breaks) as another anti-thesis to muslims who do not wear any?
also, what do you muslim guys do if you have a little bit of plumbing problem drip…drippp ?
Sher
Since Sher is unwilling or unable to respond to many of the points raised by Billi, perhaps he can manage answers (mostly yes/no) to the following:
Does Sher agree that the vast majority of Sikhs (99%) across the world are law abiding, hard working and good citizens wherever they happen to be living?
Does Sher concur with the undisputable fact that the Sikhs contribution during India’s struggle for freedom during British rule has been inordinate compared to their population?
Are Hindus a superior people to Sikhs, Muslims, Dalits or Christians?
Is Sikhism an integral part of the Hindu religion, or a separate religion in it’s own right?
Is it not the case that there extremist elements in equal measure in the ‘followers’ of all religions, including Hinduism?
Does Sher condemn extremist elements in all faiths, including those belonging to the Hindu faith?
Are Hindus not indulging in naked repression of other faiths, distorting history, arm-twisting bureaucracy, casteism, etc?
Is Sher aware of any acts of terrorism perpetrated by Hindus?
Hindu terrorists have also killed babies. What is Sher’s response to this?
Does Sher believe in a balanced and constructive dialogue, free of abusive and inflammatory language? (question asked in light of comments such as these made by him: “… relax, take kachera out of your …..” and “what do you muslim guys do if you have a little bit of plumbing problem drip…drippp ?”)
Finally, Billi suggests that Sher appears to exhibit symptoms of a delusional state when he says "Why are you so obsessed with me…."; or could it be paranoia (being suspicious without reason, and believing that others are trying to harm you in some way)…
Regards
Anytime Billi anytime, i can answer these questions provided you agree to do the same with my questionnaire.
yes?
Sher
Sher, by now only fully exposed for what he really believes in, stands cornered and out of answers and ideas; unlike a true sher he is unable to respond to perfectly legitimate questions, and has chosen to resort to the use of gimmicks used by politicians to try and wriggle out of his difficulty.
Sher may not be aware, but unlike what might go in Parliament House, true debate does not require horse trading, tit for tat, or hiding behind rhetoric.
Truth will prevail.
Regards
why are you backing out my dear friend.
stands cornered and out of answers and ideas" thats your observation and you have every right to form such opinion about me. but i think i have been able to answer all questions time permitting. do not ask me to address every minor, irrelevant query you pose.
I fail to understand why you are reluctant to answer my questions.
Anyway, i would take up your questions shortly.
Sher
Sher, don't talk to me about what the Sikhs in Punjab feel. International human rights organisations estimate that your India murdered a quarter of a million of them. For your country to first kill the ones that knew about Sikhism and could teach Sikhism and its history to the newer generation……and then claim that the new generation have no interest in true Sikh history and its independance…….while ignoring the fact that there is nobody left to teach them that history…..nobody left coz you killed them all, is a disgrace.
My wife is from Punjab….university educated. It is only when she came to England that she first learn't that Punjab was even an independant sovereign nation before it was forced to become part of India. Fully independant, and not a suzerainty like the other former princely states of India. It was only when she came to England that she learn't where our Sikh kingdom extended to. It was only when she came to England that she learn't that our Punjabi langiage was 900 years older than the Hindi language that her teachers in India had forcefully conducted her education in, at the expense of Punjabi.
First India kills them…….Then India scares them into submission with the threat of death and torture…..then India denies them access to knowledge about themselves and their history……….and now Sher you have the balls to claim that 'they' in Punjab love India and have no interest in 'freedom'.
I am from Punjab, India. I have started hating India and Nationalistic Hindus in general. All because of reasons I don't need to reiterate again. Sher ignores every link and fact and sets up his bandwagon of JUST AND JUST khalistani rhetoric. Punjab needs to become land of pure, Khalistan, separate from Hindus eating everything out of Punjab, be it electricity, water or grains.
Ur own ignorance has manifested as hate for india and nationalistic hindus.Here r some facts,no body is eating anything out of punjab.Electicty-punjab cannot produce enough,coz it doesnot have enough hydro or fossil fuel resources,even bhakhra dam and its catchment area is in himachal,thanks to shortsightedness of sikh leaders/akalis.Water–Punjab has & never tried to have a water conservation/storage policy,look what happened during recent flooding in ghaggar river.Grains–if the farmers produce more,they sell more and get more money,what would u do let the farmers hoard their produce?As for khalistan,there is only one between ur ears.So stop being a moron and look at reality on the ground.
RSV: Go to your RSS camp buddy. Stop giving unsolicited advices or sermons to non-Hindus. Who ever you are, you and your buddies Sher etc can only debate on internet I know for sure.
RSV aka Sanghi: I am sorry your reasoning is all concocted and propagated by your Daddies in RSS and Hindustani govt. Use your brain if you have ever learned to be independent thinker. I doubt you people can use it. Don't teach your propagandist theories and ideas to those who aren't your Sanghi colleagues you sell out Hindu Nazi !!!!
I gave u viable answers to the points u raised,all u have to do is counter explain that,but u go on & on on ur viruil diatribe.Reality sure hurts,specially when someone like u who mistakenly believed in seperation now realises,that it was all for nothing.No wonder people like KPS GILL beat the crap out of the misguided ones.He was my superior once,a long time ago,but even today I take my hat/turban off to him.India needs more law enforcement officers like him to deal with the prevailing naxal threat.So chew on this fella.
Your answers = RSS propaganda = Nazi policies = Hindu rashtra = Dilution and weakening of minorities = Development of staunch bigots = Everything Hindu !!!!
PS: @ RSV, Sher etc: No problem if you don't understand the above equalities. No problem even if think it is not as per your understanding. Have a good day.
RSV – another ignorant Hindu pretending to be a Sikh. I suppose it's the only way the Hindus can have some credibility in a debate. Pretending to be a Sikh and then pretending that he was a biatch of KPS Gill as well! A Hindu pretending to be a Sikh who was also repressing his own people! Noting that KPS Gill is also a sex pervert and known to molest women, did you also invite him to your house so that you could show Saabji what a loyal kuttah you are by presenting your wife and daughters, maybe even your mother and grandmother for him to molest! I bow to your Desh Bhagti!
R S Virk saab you are not alone in your admiration for KPS.
he is not only a top, no non-sense cop but also top analyst.
he writes in his book (avbl online) Knights of Flasehood:
"Over the entire period of the terrorist movement in Punjab, the two most significant victories for the cause of ‘Khalistan’ were not won by the militants, but inflicted – through acts both of commission and omission – upon the nation by its own Government. The first of these was Operation Blue Star; the second, the anti-Sikh riots of 1984."
Could not have said better.
KPS for Prime minister.
sher
So Sher you're another fan of a sex pervert. No really surprising, Hindus have allowed their women to be molested by invaders since the year zero. Does KPS Gill also frequent your home and have free rein over the women in your family!? No doubt your ancestors are proud that you are keeping their traditions alive! Another slogan for the proud Hindus! "Gaurav Se Kahen Hum aapke dheeyon bhaino ke dalal hain!"
Gaurav se kaho hum Bik ki dheeyon bhaino ke dalal hai…
BTW, who is this Gaurav?
Also, d**k sorry Bik Hindu forefathers are the same as Sikh forefathers. stop pretending as if sikhs are aliens who landed in punjab in 16th century in some jahaz named Nanak. …as if they had no roots in Punjab and Muslims left their women un-violated because of their facial hair.
you are disgusting Bik
Sher
@ Sher: YOU STARTED IT. AND YOUR COMMUNITY STARTED BACK THEN. SIMILAR PATTERNS. THINGS WILL COME AROUND.
Dumb A*s, is that all you can, copy what I write about you? Your Kuttay ancestors really must be proud and as a Katoora you really are showing your true colours now. A dumber Hindu it is hard to find. A Hindu who doesn't even the RSS/Hindutva slogan. You chose the name Sher to make yourself feel like a lion, but your real name is probably Mangu Ram or something. I told you before my ancestors weren't kuttay, thieves, black etc. They worshipped ancestors and their belief system was Jathera. If you are as ignorant as the dhoti you wear then it's not my job to enlighten you. Now go and let your daughter, mother and sister out, I think KPS Gill has finished with them!
Nothing in your post I can respond too. just pure khalistani-bani…full of invectives, slander and absolute ignorance of history. wonder how the moral police in this blog fail to notice the kinds of Bik and HS.
whether I am Mangu Ram or nanak chand, does not matter. At least I am NOT a rabid bigot like u Bik and HS.
Go on hating if this is what you think is essence of Sikhi.
Cheers
Sher
"My wife is from Punjab….university educated…" not a small feat for you Dosanjh, married to a university educated woman. but tell me honestly, is it really unusual in your clan for a woman to be "university educated"?
"Fully independant, and not a suzerainty like the other former princely states of India."
Punjab was NOT a F I state before Brits gobbled it in mid 19th century. Read about Amritsar treaty i mentioned yesterday. the treaty banned M Ranjit singh from crossing Satluj into BRIT protectorate states like Patiala, nabha, Kapurthala, Jind, etc.
Bengal, on the other hand, was one of the many INDEPENDENT states before Battle of Plassey on 23 june 1757. Nepal (sorry to say A HINDU STATE) was never defeated and was recognised by the brits as an Independent state.
Punjabi langiage was 900 years older…"
Seriously Dosanjh where do you source your history from?
Why, because of this fact:
"The word "Punjab" for the first time was mentioned in the Book “Tarikh-e-Sher Shah'' (1580) which mentions the construction of Fort by a fellow named “Sher Khan of Punjab''. Again the name is mentioned in “Ain-e-Akbari'' part 1 written by Abul Fazal who also mentions that the territory of Punjab was divided into two provinces of Lahore and Multan. Similarly in the second volume of “Aeen-e-Akbari'' title of a chapter contains the word “Punjab'' in it. Also the Mughal King Jahangeer mentions the word “punjab'' on page 183 of his book "Tuzk-i-Janhageeri". [Quraishee 73]"
I do not want to do this to you Dosanjh but EVERY point you make is turning out to be falsified.
"…at her teachers in India had forcefully conducted her education in, at the expense of Punjabi."
teachers forcing a University student….. what a piece of Dosanjh!!
'They' still love India my myopic friend and we would show that again on 15 August.
To end this particular post i would borrow the famous salutation of that trio of martyrs Bhagat, Sukhdev and Rajguru
vandematram!!!
This is from sanskrit a classic language which originated in Punjab.
Sher
My wife is from Punjab….university educated. It is only when she came to England that she first learn't that Punjab was even an independant sovereign nation before it was forced to become part of India. Fully independant, and not a suzerainty like the other former princely states of India. It was only when she came to England that she learn't where our Sikh kingdom extended to. It was only when she came to England that she learn't that our Punjabi langiage was 900 years older than the Hindi language that her teachers in India had forcefully conducted her education in, at the expense of Punjabi.
First India kills them…….Then India scares them into submission with the threat of death and torture…..then India denies them access to knowledge about themselves and their history……….and now Sher you have the balls to claim that 'they' in Punjab love India and have no interest in 'freedom'.
I am from Punjab, India. I have started hating India and Nationalistic Hindus in general. All because of reasons I don't need to reiterate again. Sher ignores every link and fact and sets up his bandwagon of JUST AND JUST khalistani rhetoric. Punjab needs to become land of pure, Khalistan, separate from Hindus eating everything out of Punjab, be it electricity, water or grains.
Ur own ignorance has manifested as hate for india and nationalistic hindus.Here r some facts,no body is eating anything out of punjab.Electicty-punjab cannot produce enough,coz it doesnot have enough hydro or fossil fuel resources,even bhakhra dam and its catchment area is in himachal,thanks to shortsightedness of sikh leaders/akalis.Water–Punjab has & never tried to have a water conservation/storage policy,look what happened during recent flooding in ghaggar river.Grains–if the farmers produce more,they sell more and get more money,what would u do let the farmers hoard their produce?As for khalistan,there is only one between ur ears.So stop being a moron and look at reality on the ground.
RSV: Go to your RSS camp buddy. Stop giving unsolicited advices or sermons to non-Hindus. Who ever you are, you and your buddies Sher etc can only debate on internet I know for sure.
RSV aka Sanghi: I am sorry your reasoning is all concocted and propagated by your Daddies in RSS and Hindustani govt. Use your brain if you have ever learned to be independent thinker. I doubt you people can use it. Don't teach your propagandist theories and ideas to those who aren't your Sanghi colleagues you sell out Hindu Nazi !!!!
I gave u viable answers to the points u raised,all u have to do is counter explain that,but u go on & on on ur viruil diatribe.Reality sure hurts,specially when someone like u who mistakenly believed in seperation now realises,that it was all for nothing.No wonder people like KPS GILL beat the crap out of the misguided ones.He was my superior once,a long time ago,but even today I take my hat/turban off to him.India needs more law enforcement officers like him to deal with the prevailing naxal threat.So chew on this fella.
Your answers = RSS propaganda = Nazi policies = Hindu rashtra = Dilution and weakening of minorities = Development of staunch bigots = Everything Hindu !!!!
PS: @ RSV, Sher etc: No problem if you don't understand the above equalities. No problem even if think it is not as per your understanding. Have a good day.
RSV – another ignorant Hindu pretending to be a Sikh. I suppose it's the only way the Hindus can have some credibility in a debate. Pretending to be a Sikh and then pretending that he was a biatch of KPS Gill as well! A Hindu pretending to be a Sikh who was also repressing his own people! Noting that KPS Gill is also a sex pervert and known to molest women, did you also invite him to your house so that you could show Saabji what a loyal kuttah you are by presenting your wife and daughters, maybe even your mother and grandmother for him to molest! I bow to your Desh Bhagti!
R S Virk saab you are not alone in your admiration for KPS.
he is not only a top, no non-sense cop but also top analyst.
he writes in his book (avbl online) Knights of Flasehood:
"Over the entire period of the terrorist movement in Punjab, the two most significant victories for the cause of ‘Khalistan’ were not won by the militants, but inflicted – through acts both of commission and omission – upon the nation by its own Government. The first of these was Operation Blue Star; the second, the anti-Sikh riots of 1984."
Could not have said better.
KPS for Prime minister.
sher
So Sher you're another fan of a sex pervert. No really surprising, Hindus have allowed their women to be molested by invaders since the year zero. Does KPS Gill also frequent your home and have free rein over the women in your family!? No doubt your ancestors are proud that you are keeping their traditions alive! Another slogan for the proud Hindus! "Gaurav Se Kahen Hum aapke dheeyon bhaino ke dalal hain!"
Gaurav se kaho hum Bik ki dheeyon bhaino ke dalal hai…
BTW, who is this Gaurav?
Also, d**k sorry Bik Hindu forefathers are the same as Sikh forefathers. stop pretending as if sikhs are aliens who landed in punjab in 16th century in some jahaz named Nanak. …as if they had no roots in Punjab and Muslims left their women un-violated because of their facial hair.
you are disgusting Bik
Sher
@ Sher: YOU STARTED IT. AND YOUR COMMUNITY STARTED BACK THEN. SIMILAR PATTERNS. THINGS WILL COME AROUND.
Dumb A*s, is that all you can, copy what I write about you? Your Kuttay ancestors really must be proud and as a Katoora you really are showing your true colours now. A dumber Hindu it is hard to find. A Hindu who doesn't even the RSS/Hindutva slogan. You chose the name Sher to make yourself feel like a lion, but your real name is probably Mangu Ram or something. I told you before my ancestors weren't kuttay, thieves, black etc. They worshipped ancestors and their belief system was Jathera. If you are as ignorant as the dhoti you wear then it's not my job to enlighten you. Now go and let your daughter, mother and sister out, I think KPS Gill has finished with them!
Nothing in your post I can respond too. just pure khalistani-bani…full of invectives, slander and absolute ignorance of history. wonder how the moral police in this blog fail to notice the kinds of Bik and HS.
whether I am Mangu Ram or nanak chand, does not matter. At least I am NOT a rabid bigot like u Bik and HS.
Go on hating if this is what you think is essence of Sikhi.
Cheers
Sher
"My wife is from Punjab….university educated…" not a small feat for you Dosanjh, married to a university educated woman. but tell me honestly, is it really unusual in your clan for a woman to be "university educated"?
"Fully independant, and not a suzerainty like the other former princely states of India."
Punjab was NOT a F I state before Brits gobbled it in mid 19th century. Read about Amritsar treaty i mentioned yesterday. the treaty banned M Ranjit singh from crossing Satluj into BRIT protectorate states like Patiala, nabha, Kapurthala, Jind, etc.
Bengal, on the other hand, was one of the many INDEPENDENT states before Battle of Plassey on 23 june 1757. Nepal (sorry to say A HINDU STATE) was never defeated and was recognised by the brits as an Independent state.
Punjabi langiage was 900 years older…"
Seriously Dosanjh where do you source your history from?
Why, because of this fact:
"The word "Punjab" for the first time was mentioned in the Book “Tarikh-e-Sher Shah'' (1580) which mentions the construction of Fort by a fellow named “Sher Khan of Punjab''. Again the name is mentioned in “Ain-e-Akbari'' part 1 written by Abul Fazal who also mentions that the territory of Punjab was divided into two provinces of Lahore and Multan. Similarly in the second volume of “Aeen-e-Akbari'' title of a chapter contains the word “Punjab'' in it. Also the Mughal King Jahangeer mentions the word “punjab'' on page 183 of his book "Tuzk-i-Janhageeri". [Quraishee 73]"
I do not want to do this to you Dosanjh but EVERY point you make is turning out to be falsified.
"…at her teachers in India had forcefully conducted her education in, at the expense of Punjabi."
teachers forcing a University student….. what a piece of Dosanjh!!
'They' still love India my myopic friend and we would show that again on 15 August.
To end this particular post i would borrow the famous salutation of that trio of martyrs Bhagat, Sukhdev and Rajguru
vandematram!!!
This is from sanskrit a classic language which originated in Punjab.
Sher
@H S et al
Guys, I think you are yourself falling into the 'Sher fallacy'. You are painting all Hindus in the same color. It is true that there are many fanatical Hindus (and I have met some) but vast majority of Hindus are peace loving just as Sikhs are. Just like Indian media reinforced the message that 1) Only sikh's were responsible for all the killings that happened in Punjab during the dark decades 2) Anyone with a beard is a potential terrorist, similarly Hindus are being painted in the same light by western media.
Remember that 1984 riots and 'Godhra' riots had a strong economic and political motive and many anti-Muslim rioteers (confirmed for post-Godhra) were paid for – mercenaries from Bihar/ UP. I know Hindus who will throw stones at the Delhi-Lahore bus, but they are exceptions.
Let Sher not shape your opinion. Enjoy his charade and keep the possibility open that he could be disgruntled Sikh spawning hatred against the Hindus.
Agree with most of your post iSingh 😉
"Only sikh's were responsible for all the killings that happened in Punjab during the dark decades"
Thanks for recognising the dark decades as….dark decades. as far killing by sikhs is concerned, unfortunately it is TRUE.
Sikhs vs sikhs. just like Talibans. good Talibans bad talibans.
To quote KPS Gill Knights of Falsehood
"The death toll inflicted by the terrorists between 1988 and 1992 stood at 9693; of these, 6280, close to 65 per cent, were Sikhs. So many Sikh families had witnessed the gratuitous and often senselessly brutal murder of their loved ones that the myth of a war for the defence of Sikhism and of Sikh interests was wearing thin."
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/publication/nightso…
Terrorists were sikhs and most of the Punjab police personnel were sikh too (nearly 70 per cent).
I do not mind your warning about me but as far as shaping opinions are concerned, ask everyone to MAKE THEIR OWN OPINION. Ask them to do their own research and do not fall into Any fallacy.'
Regards (thats rare from this much-hated poster, isnt it?)
Sher
@H S et al
Guys, I think you are yourself falling into the 'Sher fallacy'. You are painting all Hindus in the same color. It is true that there are many fanatical Hindus (and I have met some) but vast majority of Hindus are peace loving just as Sikhs are. Just like Indian media reinforced the message that 1) Only sikh's were responsible for all the killings that happened in Punjab during the dark decades 2) Anyone with a beard is a potential terrorist, similarly Hindus are being painted in the same light by western media.
Remember that 1984 riots and 'Godhra' riots had a strong economic and political motive and many anti-Muslim rioteers (confirmed for post-Godhra) were paid for – mercenaries from Bihar/ UP. I know Hindus who will throw stones at the Delhi-Lahore bus, but they are exceptions.
Let Sher not shape your opinion. Enjoy his charade and keep the possibility open that he could be disgruntled Sikh spawning hatred against the Hindus.
Agree with most of your post iSingh 😉
"Only sikh's were responsible for all the killings that happened in Punjab during the dark decades"
Thanks for recognising the dark decades as….dark decades. as far killing by sikhs is concerned, unfortunately it is TRUE.
Sikhs vs sikhs. just like Talibans. good Talibans bad talibans.
To quote KPS Gill Knights of Falsehood
"The death toll inflicted by the terrorists between 1988 and 1992 stood at 9693; of these, 6280, close to 65 per cent, were Sikhs. So many Sikh families had witnessed the gratuitous and often senselessly brutal murder of their loved ones that the myth of a war for the defence of Sikhism and of Sikh interests was wearing thin."
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/publication/nightso…
Terrorists were sikhs and most of the Punjab police personnel were sikh too (nearly 70 per cent).
I do not mind your warning about me but as far as shaping opinions are concerned, ask everyone to MAKE THEIR OWN OPINION. Ask them to do their own research and do not fall into Any fallacy.'
Regards (thats rare from this much-hated poster, isnt it?)
Sher
The ultimate truth,,,
Like the pupil in the eyes
The Lord resides inside
Ignorant do not know this fact
They search Him outside
Ankit,
jey har thaan te majood hain toon
pher kyon nahin nazara ho jaanda
If you are omnipresent
why cannot i see you
sher
The ultimate truth,,,
Like the pupil in the eyes
The Lord resides inside
Ignorant do not know this fact
They search Him outside
Ankit,
jey har thaan te majood hain toon
pher kyon nahin nazara ho jaanda
If you are omnipresent
why cannot i see you
sher
hahahaha….seriously I am loving seeing this Sher's antics like a wild dog gone mad…keep posting your imaginary history which you are made to concoct in RSS Shakhas and Hindutva-cum-governement sponsored Schools…Let them coming and keep imagining wild and high…I am just waiting for the turn when your imagination would claim that 1) Hindutva and Hinduism is the mother of humanity which started on earth, and 2) All religions in this world are offshoots of Sanatan Dharma!!!! Not difficult to imagine. Remember story of 'Manu'?
hahahaha….seriously hmmmmm going nuts Haroon mian?
Write something other than "Hindu nationalism…. sakhas,..,.,.,.Hindutva…" get over your insecurity. you are whingeing like a man whose gf has been snatched….poached….whatver.
Sher
hahahaha….seriously I am loving seeing this Sher's antics like a wild dog gone mad…keep posting your imaginary history which you are made to concoct in RSS Shakhas and Hindutva-cum-governement sponsored Schools…Let them coming and keep imagining wild and high…I am just waiting for the turn when your imagination would claim that 1) Hindutva and Hinduism is the mother of humanity which started on earth, and 2) All religions in this world are offshoots of Sanatan Dharma!!!! Not difficult to imagine. Remember story of 'Manu'?
hahahaha….seriously hmmmmm going nuts Haroon mian?
Write something other than "Hindu nationalism…. sakhas,..,.,.,.Hindutva…" get over your insecurity. you are whingeing like a man whose gf has been snatched….poached….whatver.
Sher
News from Australia today:
"Defendant in veil case Anwar Sayed bashed
DETECTIVES are investigating claims that a man who received death threats because he was agitating to have Muslim women lift their veils while giving evidence has been bashed.
Anwar Sayed, who is standing trial for fraud in the West Australian District Court, had received death threats over the controversy which came to light on Tuesday when a Muslim female witness, known only as Tasneem, asked a judge to decide whether she had to wear her head-to-toe covering while giving evidence for the prosecution.
Mr Sayed was the director at the Muslim Ladies College of Australia in Perth's southern suburbs, where Tasneem worked as a teacher for about 12 months. Mr Sayed has been charged with fraudulently obtaining up to $750,000 from state and federal governments by falsifying the number of students at the college.
Police have cordoned off an area near a solicitor’s office in suburban Leeming. It is believed Mr Sayed was assaulted after a confrontation early this morning……"
Amazing there are apparently educated 'western' women on this thread supporting the veil – the cage.
WHY STOP AT SUPPORTING THE RIGHT TO WEAR VEIL IN FRANCE, WE HAVE MANY MORE SUCH POTENTIAL CAMPAIGNS. TO NAME A FEW:
One more from fatwa factory, the 141-year-old Dar-ul-Uloom in Deoband, Uttar Pradesh which is stated to have issued over 700,000 fatwas so far.
(2007 news item)
http: //www. hindustantimes. com/Fatwa-on-artificial-conception/Article1-264457. aspx
India’s most influential Muslim seminary, the 141-year-old Dar-ul-Uloom in Deoband, Uttar Pradesh, has issued a fatwa (edict) forbidding Muslim women from conceiving through artificial means. This effectively means that modern medical techniques like in-vitro fertilisation, surrogate motherhood and artificial insemination are not allowed, according to the seminary “It is not right to masturbate in order to get children by artificial insemination…,” said the fatwa.
One of their concerns is that women would have to disrobe in front of male doctors for the procedure to be carried out. Mufti Imran, a high-ranking Dar-ul-Uloom official, said: “A woman whose husband is not able to give children is not permitted to use any other means. The fatwa also bans infertile women from allowing others to bear their babies.” The fatwa has raised a storm of controversy within the community While it has found support in some sections, several maulanas themselves as well as doctors and prominent personalities have opposed it. All India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB) member Khalid Rashid was among those who supported the edict. “A child should be created naturally,” he said. “If Allah has not given a child, He has not given the right to get one through artificial means either”
The Doobandi Dar-ul-UIoom has so far issued seven lakh fatwas since its creation on issues like use of western toilots, sexual relationship, personal hygione, and several other nitty-gritties.
Here are some sample Fatwas:-
On women intentionally opting for sterilization:
Allah says in the Quran, ‘kill not your children for fear of want: we shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you.
On gay relationship:
It is not allowed for two persons of 10 years or more to sleep at one bed.Friendship is allowed until it does not cause anything prohibited in Islam.
On music:
The Quran and Hadith have prohibited it. The UIoma have declared music unlawful.
On marriage:
If the proposal is made on phone or Internet, then it is not right. In nikah, it is compulsory that the eijab and quboolare made before two witnesses.
On perfume use:
Perfume containing alcohol made of grapes, dates or raisin is impure. Alcohols made of other vegetables are allowed. Applying wax at home to remove hair is allowed.
On body waxing:
Applying wax at home to remove hair is allowed. But going to beauty parlours to do so is prohibited.
http: //www. dnaindia. com/india/report_darul-uloom-issues-fatwa-against-adolescent-girls-riding-bicycles_1410829
Darul Uloom issues fatwa against adolescent girls riding bicycles
Published: Saturday, Jul 17, 2010, 0:39 IST
By Deepak Gidwani | Place: Mumbai | Agency: DNA
Renowned Islamic seminary Darul Uloom, Deoband, has issued a fatwa prohibiting girls aged 13 and above from riding bicycles. Clerics and educationists termed the edict “ridiculous” and “impractical”.
Mufti Arshad Faruqui, chairman of the Darul Uloom fatwa department, told reporters on Friday that the edict was in keeping with the ideals of Islam. “When a grown-up girl goes cycling outside her house, it is bound to result in bepardagi [undue exposure],” he said. “Even medical science has given us evidence to believe that cycling is not good for adolescent girls, physically,” he said. “Apart from affecting their feminity, it is harmful for their body structure,” he said……. "
AND MANY MORE JUST GOOGLE " fatwa darul uloom"
THE BLEEDING HEARTS FOR ISLAM HERE ON THIS THREAD HAVE SO MANY CAMPAIGNS TO SUPPORT WITH MANY MORE TO COME. BEST OF LUCK
Sher
News from Australia today:
“Defendant in veil case Anwar Sayed bashed
DETECTIVES are investigating claims that a man who received death threats because he was agitating to have Muslim women lift their veils while giving evidence has been bashed.
Anwar Sayed, who is standing trial for fraud in the West Australian District Court, had received death threats over the controversy which came to light on Tuesday when a Muslim female witness, known only as Tasneem, asked a judge to decide whether she had to wear her head-to-toe covering while giving evidence for the prosecution.
Mr Sayed was the director at the Muslim Ladies College of Australia in Perth’s southern suburbs, where Tasneem worked as a teacher for about 12 months. Mr Sayed has been charged with fraudulently obtaining up to $750,000 from state and federal governments by falsifying the number of students at the college.
Police have cordoned off an area near a solicitor’s office in suburban Leeming. It is believed Mr Sayed was assaulted after a confrontation early this morning……”
Amazing there are apparently educated 'western' women on this thread supporting the veil – the cage.
WHY STOP AT SUPPORTING THE RIGHT TO WEAR VEIL IN FRANCE, WE HAVE MANY MORE SUCH POTENTIAL CAMPAIGNS. TO NAME A FEW:
One more from fatwa factory, the 141-year-old Dar-ul-Uloom in Deoband, Uttar Pradesh which is stated to have issued over 700,000 fatwas so far.
(2007 news item)
http: //www. hindustantimes. com/Fatwa-on-artificial-conception/Article1-264457. aspx
India’s most influential Muslim seminary, the 141-year-old Dar-ul-Uloom in Deoband, Uttar Pradesh, has issued a fatwa (edict) forbidding Muslim women from conceiving through artificial means. This effectively means that modern medical techniques like in-vitro fertilisation, surrogate motherhood and artificial insemination are not allowed, according to the seminary “It is not right to masturbate in order to get children by artificial insemination…,” said the fatwa.
One of their concerns is that women would have to disrobe in front of male doctors for the procedure to be carried out. Mufti Imran, a high-ranking Dar-ul-Uloom official, said: “A woman whose husband is not able to give children is not permitted to use any other means. The fatwa also bans infertile women from allowing others to bear their babies.” The fatwa has raised a storm of controversy within the community While it has found support in some sections, several maulanas themselves as well as doctors and prominent personalities have opposed it. All India Muslim Personal Law Board (AIMPLB) member Khalid Rashid was among those who supported the edict. “A child should be created naturally,” he said. “If Allah has not given a child, He has not given the right to get one through artificial means either”
The Doobandi Dar-ul-UIoom has so far issued seven lakh fatwas since its creation on issues like use of western toilots, sexual relationship, personal hygione, and several other nitty-gritties.
Here are some sample Fatwas:-
On women intentionally opting for sterilization:
Allah says in the Quran, ‘kill not your children for fear of want: we shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you.
On gay relationship:
It is not allowed for two persons of 10 years or more to sleep at one bed.Friendship is allowed until it does not cause anything prohibited in Islam.
On music:
The Quran and Hadith have prohibited it. The UIoma have declared music unlawful.
On marriage:
If the proposal is made on phone or Internet, then it is not right. In nikah, it is compulsory that the eijab and quboolare made before two witnesses.
On perfume use:
Perfume containing alcohol made of grapes, dates or raisin is impure. Alcohols made of other vegetables are allowed. Applying wax at home to remove hair is allowed.
On body waxing:
Applying wax at home to remove hair is allowed. But going to beauty parlours to do so is prohibited.
http: //www. dnaindia. com/india/report_darul-uloom-issues-fatwa-against-adolescent-girls-riding-bicycles_1410829
Darul Uloom issues fatwa against adolescent girls riding bicycles
Published: Saturday, Jul 17, 2010, 0:39 IST
By Deepak Gidwani | Place: Mumbai | Agency: DNA
Renowned Islamic seminary Darul Uloom, Deoband, has issued a fatwa prohibiting girls aged 13 and above from riding bicycles. Clerics and educationists termed the edict “ridiculous” and “impractical”.
Mufti Arshad Faruqui, chairman of the Darul Uloom fatwa department, told reporters on Friday that the edict was in keeping with the ideals of Islam. “When a grown-up girl goes cycling outside her house, it is bound to result in bepardagi [undue exposure],” he said. “Even medical science has given us evidence to believe that cycling is not good for adolescent girls, physically,” he said. “Apart from affecting their feminity, it is harmful for their body structure,” he said……. "
AND MANY MORE JUST GOOGLE " fatwa darul uloom"
THE BLEEDING HEARTS FOR ISLAM HERE ON THIS THREAD HAVE SO MANY CAMPAIGNS TO SUPPORT WITH MANY MORE TO COME. BEST OF LUCK
Sher
Taliban Executes Pregnant Woman in Afghanistan
http:// www1 .voanews. com/english/news/asia/ Taliban-Executes-Pregnant-Woman-in-Afghanistan–100285019.html
Would the bleeding hearts defend this right to kill innocents too?
Where are those H Ss and 'Harpreet Singh' defenders of barbarian faith from the Arabic desert?
Sher
You idiot, Taliban is not a complete representative of Islam to malign a religion. Its a cultural and regional specific issue when it comes to Taliban. It's not got to do with religion ALTOGETHER. Why doesn't the largest Muslim populated country Indonesia do these things if you are so concerned about Islamic faith being barbarian? Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Egypt, Dubai etc? Why doesn't scores of other official Islamic countries do, or allow, these things? Because their culture and geo-region is different from Afghanistan's. Taliban is a cultural and regional issue, however they exploit the Islamic principles even though when they themselves don't follow the pure and ideal Islam. Though I am not Muslim, but I do have a knowledge through my friend that killing of children and women is not permitted even in Jihad. It is not just you who don't understands this, but umpteen of other people. All it takes to understand is remove your arrogant Nationalism which is deeply rooted in you, and related to your Hindu fundamentalism and neo-Nazism.
"You idiot (STOP FROTHING HAROON, COOL DOWN. NAME CALLING ISNT THE CIVILISED WAY TO DEBATE ANY ISSUE), Taliban is not a complete representative of Islam to malign a religion. Its a cultural and regional specific issue when it comes to Taliban"
Why you, someone pretending to be a Sikh, is so defensive about inhumane, indefensible brutalities by Islamic jehadis? what do you have to say about centuries of Muslim zulm on Sikhs (forget their brethren Hindus)? What is your take on alarming drop in Sikh (forget other KAAFIRS)population in Pakistan since 1947?
Saudi Arabia…
Stoning to death, public beheading, flogging women, etc are some of the small industries being run by the Islamic zealots like you in this err stone age country. Need gory video links and articles or you can trust my comments?
"Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Egypt, Dubai etc? Why doesn't scores of other official Islamic countries do…"
can you name of some of these 'civil' enough islamic countries where gruesome Sharia is NOT practiced?
Indonesia….
Stoning to death in Indonesia:
http://www. youtube. com/watch?v=zioynu7rPmw
Religious intolerance in Indonesia getting worse: Report
http:// thestar. com. my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/1/14/nation/20090114102335&sec=nation
Iran
Stoning exposes cruelty
(from YOUR Toronto Star so Hindu nationalists cannot be blamed for this report):
http://www. torontosun. com/comment/columnists/ peter_worthington/2010/07/16/14737861.html
Pakistan:
(warning: this footage is about a young man being stoned to death by a Muslim crowd, can be very disturbing)
http://www. truthtube.tv/ play.php?vid=2111
I can go on once again but then why waste TLH space to state the bleeding obvious? i.e. unless you insist on your islamic faith to be exposed further.
One more for H S aka Haroon from his beloved Pakistan:
http://www. wnd. com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=182457
Two christians shot for blasphemy even though their innocence was established by police.
And Pakistan is a DEMOCRACY!!!!
Sher
Dude, I could show you more sources and videos showing face of Hindu barbarian nature in India against other minorities, brutal to its highest form. But alas, you will never accept the magnitude of radicalism by Hindus in India far overwhelms these isolated incidents which you are showing. And there has to be no damn reason for Hindus to unleash their terror on minorities. Anyways, keep up with your Hindu RSS' teachings of Nazism and radicalism. Take care, Sanghi Sher.
"But alas, you will never accept the magnitude of radicalism by Hindus in India far overwhelms these isolated incidents which you are showing"
Denials denials and more denials by a 'Sikh' who is so defensive about Islamic brutalities for some reasons.
Haroon puttar, ask you one simple question:
Is Sharia an 'Isolated incident'?
The brutal punishments are enshirined in Sharia islamic law and is being followed by a very large Muslim population across the globe. You have to struggle very hard to find one single Muslim country which does not follow such stone age brutalities.
Turkey seems to be the only exception to this.
as far as Hindu barbarians are concerned, condemn them try them and hang them high THAT IS MY PHILOSOPHY.
As I write this, Gujarati Home Minister is behind the bars for his alleged involvement in an encounter in which a notorious gangster was killed. the encounter attracted so much media and bleeding hearts attn as the victim was a Muslim. Also reminded of A delhi encounter in which two Muslim terrorists and a Police officer had died. Jamia Milia University VC and many political parties rallied behind the 'victims' (the terrorists) but when it was revealed the killed men were indeed terrorists, no one condoled the dead police officer.
Should police officer's family sue that VC and poitical parties chiefs for compensation as their wards killed a fine police officer?
Sher
Taliban Executes Pregnant Woman in Afghanistan
http:// www1 .voanews. com/english/news/asia/ Taliban-Executes-Pregnant-Woman-in-Afghanistan–100285019.html
Would the bleeding hearts defend this right to kill innocents too?
Where are those H Ss and 'Harpreet Singh' defenders of barbarian faith from the Arabic desert?
Sher
You idiot, Taliban is not a complete representative of Islam to malign a religion. Its a cultural and regional specific issue when it comes to Taliban. It's not got to do with religion ALTOGETHER. Why doesn't the largest Muslim populated country Indonesia do these things if you are so concerned about Islamic faith being barbarian? Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Egypt, Dubai etc? Why doesn't scores of other official Islamic countries do, or allow, these things? Because their culture and geo-region is different from Afghanistan's. Taliban is a cultural and regional issue, however they exploit the Islamic principles even though when they themselves don't follow the pure and ideal Islam. Though I am not Muslim, but I do have a knowledge through my friend that killing of children and women is not permitted even in Jihad. It is not just you who don't understands this, but umpteen of other people. All it takes to understand is remove your arrogant Nationalism which is deeply rooted in you, and related to your Hindu fundamentalism and neo-Nazism.
"You idiot (STOP FROTHING HAROON, COOL DOWN. NAME CALLING ISNT THE CIVILISED WAY TO DEBATE ANY ISSUE), Taliban is not a complete representative of Islam to malign a religion. Its a cultural and regional specific issue when it comes to Taliban"
Why you, someone pretending to be a Sikh, is so defensive about inhumane, indefensible brutalities by Islamic jehadis? what do you have to say about centuries of Muslim zulm on Sikhs (forget their brethren Hindus)? What is your take on alarming drop in Sikh (forget other KAAFIRS)population in Pakistan since 1947?
Saudi Arabia…
Stoning to death, public beheading, flogging women, etc are some of the small industries being run by the Islamic zealots like you in this err stone age country. Need gory video links and articles or you can trust my comments?
"Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Egypt, Dubai etc? Why doesn't scores of other official Islamic countries do…"
can you name of some of these 'civil' enough islamic countries where gruesome Sharia is NOT practiced?
Indonesia….
Stoning to death in Indonesia:
http://www. youtube. com/watch?v=zioynu7rPmw
Religious intolerance in Indonesia getting worse: Report
http:// thestar. com. my/news/story.asp?file=/2009/1/14/nation/20090114102335&sec=nation
Iran
Stoning exposes cruelty
(from YOUR Toronto Star so Hindu nationalists cannot be blamed for this report):
http://www. torontosun. com/comment/columnists/ peter_worthington/2010/07/16/14737861.html
Pakistan:
(warning: this footage is about a young man being stoned to death by a Muslim crowd, can be very disturbing)
http://www. truthtube.tv/ play.php?vid=2111
I can go on once again but then why waste TLH space to state the bleeding obvious? i.e. unless you insist on your islamic faith to be exposed further.
One more for H S aka Haroon from his beloved Pakistan:
http://www. wnd. com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=182457
Two christians shot for blasphemy even though their innocence was established by police.
And Pakistan is a DEMOCRACY!!!!
Sher
Dude, I could show you more sources and videos showing face of Hindu barbarian nature in India against other minorities, brutal to its highest form. But alas, you will never accept the magnitude of radicalism by Hindus in India far overwhelms these isolated incidents which you are showing. And there has to be no damn reason for Hindus to unleash their terror on minorities. Anyways, keep up with your Hindu RSS' teachings of Nazism and radicalism. Take care, Sanghi Sher.
"But alas, you will never accept the magnitude of radicalism by Hindus in India far overwhelms these isolated incidents which you are showing"
Denials denials and more denials by a 'Sikh' who is so defensive about Islamic brutalities for some reasons.
Haroon puttar, ask you one simple question:
Is Sharia an 'Isolated incident'?
The brutal punishments are enshirined in Sharia islamic law and is being followed by a very large Muslim population across the globe. You have to struggle very hard to find one single Muslim country which does not follow such stone age brutalities.
Turkey seems to be the only exception to this.
as far as Hindu barbarians are concerned, condemn them try them and hang them high THAT IS MY PHILOSOPHY.
As I write this, Gujarati Home Minister is behind the bars for his alleged involvement in an encounter in which a notorious gangster was killed. the encounter attracted so much media and bleeding hearts attn as the victim was a Muslim. Also reminded of A delhi encounter in which two Muslim terrorists and a Police officer had died. Jamia Milia University VC and many political parties rallied behind the 'victims' (the terrorists) but when it was revealed the killed men were indeed terrorists, no one condoled the dead police officer.
Should police officer's family sue that VC and poitical parties chiefs for compensation as their wards killed a fine police officer?
Sher
@ Sher :IF IT WAS 'ANOTHER RELIGION' WHY G GOBIND SINGH WENT ALL THE WAY TO NANDED TO REQUEST MADHO DAS AKA BANDA BAHADUR WHO BELONGED TO ANOTHER RELIGION TO AVENGE HIS HUMILIATIONS?
First of all, Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not go to Nanded just to meet Banda Singh Bahadur. And if guru ji did meet him, it was out of kindness and mercy. Guru Ji saved him from falling into the pit of ridhia/sidhia and ahankar and showed him a better way and so Banda Singh Bahadur took Amrit and was renamed Gurbaksh Singh..(btw do u purposely omit the Singh from Banda Singh Bahadur?) As to the fact of why Guru Ji chose him to punish the evildoers such as Vazir Khan etc(u refer to these as humiliations, why?….. when the shaheedi of the sahibzades is the proudest moment in Sikh history) Only Guru Ji knows. And Banda Singh Bahadur was only successful with the help of Sikhs.
"And who back-stabbed Banda bahadur when he was cornered?" Please explain ..more details
Sorry post is so long, esp since most of u already know the history……..
@ Sher :IF IT WAS 'ANOTHER RELIGION' WHY G GOBIND SINGH WENT ALL THE WAY TO NANDED TO REQUEST MADHO DAS AKA BANDA BAHADUR WHO BELONGED TO ANOTHER RELIGION TO AVENGE HIS HUMILIATIONS?
First of all, Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not go to Nanded just to meet Banda Singh Bahadur. And if guru ji did meet him, it was out of kindness and mercy. Guru Ji saved him from falling into the pit of ridhia/sidhia and ahankar and showed him a better way and so Banda Singh Bahadur took Amrit and was renamed Gurbaksh Singh..(btw do u purposely omit the Singh from Banda Singh Bahadur?) As to the fact of why Guru Ji chose him to punish the evildoers such as Vazir Khan etc(u refer to these as humiliations, why?….. when the shaheedi of the sahibzades is the proudest moment in Sikh history) Only Guru Ji knows. And Banda Singh Bahadur was only successful with the help of Sikhs.
"And who back-stabbed Banda bahadur when he was cornered?" Please explain ..more details
Sorry post is so long, esp since most of u already know the history……..
Welcome back Nimrata, it took you so long to find answer to my simple query. i know very hard to find even few words to back your assertion that G T bahadur gave life for ANOTHER religion.
"First of all, Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not go to Nanded just to meet Banda…"
You are right, he did not go to South India JUST for Banda Bahadur (no where in history he is called Banda SINGH bahadur and I am referring to AUTHENTIC history sources).
I did not want to mention this Nimrata but GGS was in South India as a minor Subedar of the Mughals. same Mughals who had killed his four sons and hundreds of followers and forced him to flee (that is humiliation) Anandpur.
"soora so pehchaniye….kabhoo na chhade khet"
Mughal emperor Bahadur Shah ordered GGS to attend his court and he (the Guru) obliged:
"A news in the Akhbar-i-Darbar-i-Mualla of July 24, 1707 informs that “in response to the Emperor’s instructions (THAT IS HUMILIATION) [Guru] Gobind [Singh], [the 9th] successor of Guru Nanak, came duly armed and joined his company (TRANSLATION FULL OF EUPHEMISMS) . The Guru made a nazar (THAT IS HUMILIATION) of one thousand gold mohars to the Emperor and received in return a khillat, robe of honour and a medal studded with precious jewels as a present and got (THAT IS HUMILIATION) his leave.”
These are, unfortunately, RECORDED historical facts which cannot be refuted by even that myth factory SGPC.
GGS later joined Mughals in their Deccan (South India) campaign and that is how GGS made it to Nanded.
Guruji saved…. pit of ridhia/sidhia…what is that? what are these ridhia sidhia and where it is mentioned?
Banda's earlier army consisted entirely of Hindu Rajputs (Banda was himself one), Jaats, Gujjars and other so-called martial tribes from the places like Hissar, Tohana, sonepat, Narnaul, etc. Even today these places have very small Sikh populations even though large numbers of displaced sikhs settled in Haryana after 1947 Partition of India. All of his earlier victories (inc Samana) were made by this army with little khalsa element in it.
Why I am mentioning this is to debunk your sectarian interpretation of history and your jaundiced perspective that Sikhs were totally different religion the day Nanak was born.
"And who back-stabbed Banda bahadur when he was cornered?" Please explain.."
Long post so would 'explain' this in my next post and again my point is not to embarrass anyone but just trying to correct lot many twisted facts which have come to be known as 'sikh history'.
Sher
Sher
What are you trying to say that Banda singh bahadur never embraced sikhism?.I am really sorry to say that It is very well recorded in sikh history and Other sources that he embraced sikhsim.Before becoming Khalsa He was a bairagi and he did not have any army
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/history-of-sikhism/…
Under him, the number of Sikhs increased; he even baptised a number of Muslims and brought them into the new faith. Nawab Aminu-ud-Daula writes in the third ruqa of his Dastur-ul-lnsha Ruqat-i-Amin-ud-Daula thus:
"Many Hindus and Musalmans adopted their faith and rituals. And their Chief (Banda Singh) captivated the hearts of Musalmans; whosoever came in contact with him, he addressed him with the title of Singh. Accordingly, Dindar Khan, a powerful ruler of the neighbourhood, was named Dindar Singh, and Mir Nasir-ud-din, a news-writer of Sirhind, became Mir Nasir Singh. In the same way, a large number of Musalmans abandoned Islam and adopted the misguided path of Sikhism.
Under Banda Singh, the Sikhs became more organised, more formidable and numerous; they also gained plenty of experience in fighting. Within three or four months, writes Khafi Khan, he collected around him from four to five thousand ponyriders and seven to eight thousand motley footmen. This number increased daily till it reached the figure of eighteen to nineteen thousand men under arms. He taught them bow to fight and conquer. Like Xanthippes, Banda Singh Bahadur as "one man and one brain laid low the forces that had seemed invincible", and restored confidence in his troops. The result was that territory between Lahore and Panipat lay practically prostrate under his feet. He fought against a number of Mughal faujdars a/s and humbled them all.
KDS,
Respects,
Where did i say he never embraced Sikhism (was it the same as adopting 'Khalsaism' btw?)?
My point is he NEVER abandoned, like ALL of the Gurus, his sanatan dharam. You are confusing 'Sikhism' as absoutely the same as 'Khallsaism'. My thinking is that a Khalsa HAS to be a Sikh but not the other way round. This is, in fact, the crux of my various arguments – Tat Khalsa trying to usurp Sikhism.
Interesting point is none of the Gurus or bhagats or others whose banis are in the Guru Granth Sahib were a Khalsa! we cannot find the most popular Tat Khalsa expression 'Vaheguru' anywhere in GGS (maybe two-three mentions). Before British-sponsored Singh Sabha started their campaign to …. I am deviating here. Let me go back to the original issue i.e. Banda bahadur.
first, the source you have mentioned (Dastur-ul-lnsha Ruqat-i-Amin-ud-Daula article by Pal S Purewal) is NOT verifiable for two reasons. Independent Translated copy is not available of the 'court diary' so we have to depend on the interpretations of KAPUR SINGH. Secondly, both Purewal and Kapur Singh are notorious for twisting sikhs scriptures and history). Isnt Purewal the same fellow who made Nanakshahi calendar, rejected by among others Damadami T and AKJ and sant samaj?
Did he know more than the Gurus who followed Bikrami calendars?
Kapur singh…. too many instances of his dishonest intellectualism.
Here goes a very balanced article:
http://www. sikhreview.org/pdf/july2004/pdf-files/history.pdf
It also has answers for Nimrata – about back-stabbing of BBahadur.
Mata Sundari, who was living in Mughal emperor's patronage in Delhi, issued Hukamanama to abandon BB leading to his defeat and later shaheedi.
Sher
History is always a disputed subject.You are just picking the article you like While others including me may not agree with it.but one of the fact is that Banda even abandoned his name of Madho das and known as Banda .It clearly shows that he accepted Guru gobind singh as his master so it clearly shows that he was a sikh.Now in your many posts you are calling hindu while those under Banda bahadur you are calling them sikhs.So you yourself are self contradicting yourself if you believe that sikhs are hindu's
Thanks KDS once again for providing verifiable references and acknowledging some of the historical facts too eg. Raghunath Rao conquering Punjab.
Banda abandoned his name…ok fine but did he abandon his previous faith (Vaishnav)? and is 'Banda' an exclusive 'sikh/Khalsa' name?
His early conquests were made possible by army/militia consisting of (modern day) haryana Hindus. Sikhs joined later. At every stage of his life as Banda, his army consisted of Hindus and Khalsas. whatever historical evidence available also tells us it took banda one year to reach haryana (Kharkhaunda) and he left nanded alone.
Of course he accepted GGS as his master otherwise why would he wage such bloody battles to avange Guru's err REVERSES against Muslims?
As far as my belief that sikhs are Hindus is concerned, give me reasons to believe otherwise. please enlighten HOW SIKHS ARE DIFFERENT FROM HINDUS.
Once again, I agree fully that Sikhism TODAY is a separate Religion/Dharam but is this what the Gurus wanted?
Sher
Now here is something interesting for you about Banda
Bahadur
http://pa.panjpedia.org/index.php?title=Banda_Sin…
But Dr Harjinder Singh Dilgeer in his book 'Sikh Twareekh (1469-2007)' (published by Singh Brothers Amritsar, in 5 volumes in 2008) narrates that Banda Singh was a Rajput, born in 1670. At the age of 16 he left his home and joined the party of wandering ascetics. He spent two years with two saadhus (Janki Das and then Ram Das)and then joined Baba Lunia, near Burhanpur. In 1696, he met Guru Gobind Singh at Kankhal, near Hardwar but this was a short meeting. After this, the Guru visited him in August 1708.
The only thing that is certain about Banda Bahadur's pre-Khalsa life is that he was a hermit (bairagi), who was baptised by Guru Gobind Singh as Khalsa. Some of the views regarding his origins include the following:
* According to Dr. Ganda Singh and some other scholars, he was a Dogra Rajput. According to this version, he was born on October 16, 1670 at Rajouri in the Jammu region of Jammu and Kashmir. He was named Lachman Dev. Wrestling, horseback riding, and hunting were his major hobbies. As a young man, he shot a doe and was shocked to watch the mother and her aborted fawn writhing in pain and dying. After this gloomy scene, he had a change of heart. He left his home and became a disciple of a Bairagi Sadhu, Janaki Das, who gave him the name, Madho Das. In the company of the Sadhus he travelled through Northern India and finally arrived at Nanded (in present-day Maharashtra), situated on the bank of the river Godavari, where he built a hut to Meditate upon.
* H.A. Rose was not sure if Banda Bahadur was a Rajput or a Khatri.
* P.N. Bali calls him a Mohyal Brahmin.
* Hakim Rai calls him a Punjabi Khatri.
* J.D Cunningham labelled him a native of South India.
* Major A.E. Barstow called him a runaway Peshwa Maratha.
* Major James Brown thought he was a native of Punjab.
* Some authors such as Dr. Sukhdyal Singh of Punjabi University, Patiala, have claimed that Banda Bahadur was a commander of the Sikh Regiment in the imperial army of Mughal Emperor Bahadur Shah. But, this is totally unbelieable. If he was a soldier of Bahadur Shah, when did he leave him? If he was in the army, there was no question of having a 'dera' (cult centre) in Nander.
* In the Mahan kosh, a Sikh encyclopedia written by Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha, (Bhasha Bibhag Punjab, Patiala), it is stated that he was Minhas Rajput, either from Rajouri in Jammu region or Doaba region of Punjab.
Most of the Historians agree that he was a Dogra Rajput and was a bairagi when the Guru met him in Nanded.
even though you have quoted only briefly from Dilgeer's work, one must be careful in taking this person too seriously. his verions of Punjab/Sikh history has too many errors in it. Being a student of history (a sikh?) i read his daily column in a controversial Punjabi newspaper. I do so to find distortions. dilgeer, like his idol Kala Afghana is seriously twisted and would do anything to gain notoriety which means fame which means $$$$ as his books sell once they become embroiled in some controversy or the other. I see it as simply mathematics no shall i say 'rocket surgery'.
Sher
Welcome back Nimrata, it took you so long to find answer to my simple query. i know very hard to find even few words to back your assertion that G T bahadur gave life for ANOTHER religion.
"First of all, Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not go to Nanded just to meet Banda…"
You are right, he did not go to South India JUST for Banda Bahadur (no where in history he is called Banda SINGH bahadur and I am referring to AUTHENTIC history sources).
I did not want to mention this Nimrata but GGS was in South India as a minor Subedar of the Mughals. same Mughals who had killed his four sons and hundreds of followers and forced him to flee (that is humiliation) Anandpur.
"soora so pehchaniye….kabhoo na chhade khet"
Mughal emperor Bahadur Shah ordered GGS to attend his court and he (the Guru) obliged:
"A news in the Akhbar-i-Darbar-i-Mualla of July 24, 1707 informs that “in response to the Emperor’s instructions (THAT IS HUMILIATION) [Guru] Gobind [Singh], [the 9th] successor of Guru Nanak, came duly armed and joined his company (TRANSLATION FULL OF EUPHEMISMS) . The Guru made a nazar (THAT IS HUMILIATION) of one thousand gold mohars to the Emperor and received in return a khillat, robe of honour and a medal studded with precious jewels as a present and got (THAT IS HUMILIATION) his leave.”
These are, unfortunately, RECORDED historical facts which cannot be refuted by even that myth factory SGPC.
GGS later joined Mughals in their Deccan (South India) campaign and that is how GGS made it to Nanded.
Guruji saved…. pit of ridhia/sidhia…what is that? what are these ridhia sidhia and where it is mentioned?
Banda's earlier army consisted entirely of Hindu Rajputs (Banda was himself one), Jaats, Gujjars and other so-called martial tribes from the places like Hissar, Tohana, sonepat, Narnaul, etc. Even today these places have very small Sikh populations even though large numbers of displaced sikhs settled in Haryana after 1947 Partition of India. All of his earlier victories (inc Samana) were made by this army with little khalsa element in it.
Why I am mentioning this is to debunk your sectarian interpretation of history and your jaundiced perspective that Sikhs were totally different religion the day Nanak was born.
"And who back-stabbed Banda bahadur when he was cornered?" Please explain.."
Long post so would 'explain' this in my next post and again my point is not to embarrass anyone but just trying to correct lot many twisted facts which have come to be known as 'sikh history'.
Sher
Sher
What are you trying to say that Banda singh bahadur never embraced sikhism?.I am really sorry to say that It is very well recorded in sikh history and Other sources that he embraced sikhsim.Before becoming Khalsa He was a bairagi and he did not have any army
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/history-of-sikhism/…
Under him, the number of Sikhs increased; he even baptised a number of Muslims and brought them into the new faith. Nawab Aminu-ud-Daula writes in the third ruqa of his Dastur-ul-lnsha Ruqat-i-Amin-ud-Daula thus:
"Many Hindus and Musalmans adopted their faith and rituals. And their Chief (Banda Singh) captivated the hearts of Musalmans; whosoever came in contact with him, he addressed him with the title of Singh. Accordingly, Dindar Khan, a powerful ruler of the neighbourhood, was named Dindar Singh, and Mir Nasir-ud-din, a news-writer of Sirhind, became Mir Nasir Singh. In the same way, a large number of Musalmans abandoned Islam and adopted the misguided path of Sikhism.
Under Banda Singh, the Sikhs became more organised, more formidable and numerous; they also gained plenty of experience in fighting. Within three or four months, writes Khafi Khan, he collected around him from four to five thousand ponyriders and seven to eight thousand motley footmen. This number increased daily till it reached the figure of eighteen to nineteen thousand men under arms. He taught them bow to fight and conquer. Like Xanthippes, Banda Singh Bahadur as "one man and one brain laid low the forces that had seemed invincible", and restored confidence in his troops. The result was that territory between Lahore and Panipat lay practically prostrate under his feet. He fought against a number of Mughal faujdars a/s and humbled them all.
KDS,
Respects,
Where did i say he never embraced Sikhism (was it the same as adopting 'Khalsaism' btw?)?
My point is he NEVER abandoned, like ALL of the Gurus, his sanatan dharam. You are confusing 'Sikhism' as absoutely the same as 'Khallsaism'. My thinking is that a Khalsa HAS to be a Sikh but not the other way round. This is, in fact, the crux of my various arguments – Tat Khalsa trying to usurp Sikhism.
Interesting point is none of the Gurus or bhagats or others whose banis are in the Guru Granth Sahib were a Khalsa! we cannot find the most popular Tat Khalsa expression 'Vaheguru' anywhere in GGS (maybe two-three mentions). Before British-sponsored Singh Sabha started their campaign to …. I am deviating here. Let me go back to the original issue i.e. Banda bahadur.
first, the source you have mentioned (Dastur-ul-lnsha Ruqat-i-Amin-ud-Daula article by Pal S Purewal) is NOT verifiable for two reasons. Independent Translated copy is not available of the 'court diary' so we have to depend on the interpretations of KAPUR SINGH. Secondly, both Purewal and Kapur Singh are notorious for twisting sikhs scriptures and history). Isnt Purewal the same fellow who made Nanakshahi calendar, rejected by among others Damadami T and AKJ and sant samaj?
Did he know more than the Gurus who followed Bikrami calendars?
Kapur singh…. too many instances of his dishonest intellectualism.
Here goes a very balanced article:
http://www. sikhreview.org/pdf/july2004/pdf-files/history.pdf
It also has answers for Nimrata – about back-stabbing of BBahadur.
Mata Sundari, who was living in Mughal emperor's patronage in Delhi, issued Hukamanama to abandon BB leading to his defeat and later shaheedi.
Sher
History is always a disputed subject.You are just picking the article you like While others including me may not agree with it.but one of the fact is that Banda even abandoned his name of Madho das and known as Banda .It clearly shows that he accepted Guru gobind singh as his master so it clearly shows that he was a sikh.Now in your many posts you are calling hindu while those under Banda bahadur you are calling them sikhs.So you yourself are self contradicting yourself if you believe that sikhs are hindu's
Thanks KDS once again for providing verifiable references and acknowledging some of the historical facts too eg. Raghunath Rao conquering Punjab.
Banda abandoned his name…ok fine but did he abandon his previous faith (Vaishnav)? and is 'Banda' an exclusive 'sikh/Khalsa' name?
His early conquests were made possible by army/militia consisting of (modern day) haryana Hindus. Sikhs joined later. At every stage of his life as Banda, his army consisted of Hindus and Khalsas. whatever historical evidence available also tells us it took banda one year to reach haryana (Kharkhaunda) and he left nanded alone.
Of course he accepted GGS as his master otherwise why would he wage such bloody battles to avange Guru's err REVERSES against Muslims?
As far as my belief that sikhs are Hindus is concerned, give me reasons to believe otherwise. please enlighten HOW SIKHS ARE DIFFERENT FROM HINDUS.
Once again, I agree fully that Sikhism TODAY is a separate Religion/Dharam but is this what the Gurus wanted?
Sher
Now here is something interesting for you about Banda
Bahadur
http://pa.panjpedia.org/index.php?title=Banda_Sin…
But Dr Harjinder Singh Dilgeer in his book ‘Sikh Twareekh (1469-2007)’ (published by Singh Brothers Amritsar, in 5 volumes in 2008) narrates that Banda Singh was a Rajput, born in 1670. At the age of 16 he left his home and joined the party of wandering ascetics. He spent two years with two saadhus (Janki Das and then Ram Das)and then joined Baba Lunia, near Burhanpur. In 1696, he met Guru Gobind Singh at Kankhal, near Hardwar but this was a short meeting. After this, the Guru visited him in August 1708.
The only thing that is certain about Banda Bahadur’s pre-Khalsa life is that he was a hermit (bairagi), who was baptised by Guru Gobind Singh as Khalsa. Some of the views regarding his origins include the following:
* According to Dr. Ganda Singh and some other scholars, he was a Dogra Rajput. According to this version, he was born on October 16, 1670 at Rajouri in the Jammu region of Jammu and Kashmir. He was named Lachman Dev. Wrestling, horseback riding, and hunting were his major hobbies. As a young man, he shot a doe and was shocked to watch the mother and her aborted fawn writhing in pain and dying. After this gloomy scene, he had a change of heart. He left his home and became a disciple of a Bairagi Sadhu, Janaki Das, who gave him the name, Madho Das. In the company of the Sadhus he travelled through Northern India and finally arrived at Nanded (in present-day Maharashtra), situated on the bank of the river Godavari, where he built a hut to Meditate upon.
* H.A. Rose was not sure if Banda Bahadur was a Rajput or a Khatri.
* P.N. Bali calls him a Mohyal Brahmin.
* Hakim Rai calls him a Punjabi Khatri.
* J.D Cunningham labelled him a native of South India.
* Major A.E. Barstow called him a runaway Peshwa Maratha.
* Major James Brown thought he was a native of Punjab.
* Some authors such as Dr. Sukhdyal Singh of Punjabi University, Patiala, have claimed that Banda Bahadur was a commander of the Sikh Regiment in the imperial army of Mughal Emperor Bahadur Shah. But, this is totally unbelieable. If he was a soldier of Bahadur Shah, when did he leave him? If he was in the army, there was no question of having a ‘dera’ (cult centre) in Nander.
* In the Mahan kosh, a Sikh encyclopedia written by Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha, (Bhasha Bibhag Punjab, Patiala), it is stated that he was Minhas Rajput, either from Rajouri in Jammu region or Doaba region of Punjab.
Most of the Historians agree that he was a Dogra Rajput and was a bairagi when the Guru met him in Nanded.
even though you have quoted only briefly from Dilgeer's work, one must be careful in taking this person too seriously. his verions of Punjab/Sikh history has too many errors in it. Being a student of history (a sikh?) i read his daily column in a controversial Punjabi newspaper. I do so to find distortions. dilgeer, like his idol Kala Afghana is seriously twisted and would do anything to gain notoriety which means fame which means $$$$ as his books sell once they become embroiled in some controversy or the other. I see it as simply mathematics no shall i say 'rocket surgery'.
Sher
@SHER,let me put it in simple terms,the 10 guru was not just humiliated he was beaten like a rented mule,and chased out of punjab.The hatred of sikhs against subedar Wazir Khan of sirhind is not just,because he executed the guru's sons,but also that the subedar did his job upto the end and was successful.The subedar did every thing succssessfuly that he was ordered to do,unlike the sikhs who lost every battle,and in the end lost the war,as the tenth guru not only accepted the khillat but also accepted the employment of bahadur shah.No different what today's so called baba's do.
Thank you Mr virk for calling Guru gobind singh ji a rented mule.Perhaps Sikhs never learnt the
From Great Hindu Kings Like Prithviraj Chauhan ,Dahir etc that How to loose battle when you have 3-4 times more resources than enemy
KDS,
Please be clear on your observation about "great" Hindu Kings. Also mention the time it took the Islamic marauders to finally establish themselves in Hindustan – FIVE CENTURIES!!! after Dahir was defeated and accepted death on the battlefield. who was protecting Indian borders for all these five centuries while Muslims were trouncing and conquering every empire up to spain in europe?
Please do not get carried away by the boastful Khalistani or other sikih websites. Think rationally and learn to question established beliefs.
Sher
Sher
It is not me who get away with Khalistani propaganda ,but you certainly is carried by Hindu propaganda.
One of the biggest fact of today is 0.5 billion muslim population
of Indian subcontinent is of Hindu descendent .If hindu’s were so brave then why such a large number of people converted to islam?
Please read the following content from a book written by a hindu
http://www.amritworld.com/book_reviews/hindu_itihas_haaron_ki_dastan.html
Book: Hindu Itihas: Haaron Kee Daastaan.
Writer: Dr. Surendra Kumar Sharma ‘Agiyaat’,
M.A. (Hindi), Ph. D. (Punjab), M. A. (Sanskrit), Ph. D. (America).
Language: Hindi.
Pages: 134.
Third Edition.
Price: Rs 40.
Publisher and Printer: Vishv Vijay Pvt. Ltd,
M-12, Connaught Circus, New Delhi – 110001. (India).
In recent years, some books have been published against Hindus and their religion. Most of such books are just an open demonstration of hatred towards Hindus. Such writers do not bother even to check the ‘facts’ they have been giving in their books. An ordinary reader accepts whatever is printed in a book shape. No wonder, we hear such slogans in ‘secular India’, ” ‘Tilak’, ‘Taraazu’ aur ‘Talvaar’. In Ko Maaro Joote Chaar”.
The book ‘Hindu Itihas: Haaron Kee Daastaan’ (Hindu history: the tale of defeats) is though criticizes Hindus, but is free from any obvious hatred against them. Even then, there are some points, which cannot be accepted in the light of other facts, which seems to be hidden by the learned writer, who is, by chance, a Brahman by caste.
How should we write our history? Should we hide our past if it is black? The writer, Dr. Surendra Kumar Sharma ‘Agiyaat’, says that Hindus have a strange conception towards history. They present the black past after whitewashing it. They hope that it will be accepted as authentic history. The writer says that inferior complex is working behind it, which is found in those people, who have some specific defect.
Some friends, and enemies too, say to the writer that the filth should not be brought forward. It should be kept concealed. However, the writer thinks in a different way. He thinks that if the history is bad in reality, even then there is nothing wrong; because in that condition, we can find out what our faults were, if we analyze such history.
Some people describe the personal gains of Shiva Ji and Rana Pratap and say that our history was splendor. However, the writer, Dr. Surendra Kumar Sharma ‘Agiyaat, does not accept this. He questions, “Are one or two persons your history of thousands of years? If your history is really a splendor one, why a handful of invaders used to rule here for thousand of years, regardless of your Rana Prataps and Shivajis?”
The writer asks further, “Is it not the bitter truth of ‘your’ history that all the life of Rana Pratap passed fighting against those hindus, who were playing part of hunting dogs for Akbar, the Mogul King; and the ‘Purohits’ refused to perform the ceremony of crowning for Shivaji despite all his gains?”
In the first chapter of his book, the writer blames the Hindu religion for all the defeats of Hindus. Giving example of battle of ‘Trayin’ in 1192 AD, he says that it was unreligious for a Hindu to take food without taking bath and worshiping his god, so when Mohammad Gauri attacked Prithvi Raj’s (Hindu) army suddenly in early morning, they were not able to fight with empty stomachs for long. Thus, the writer blames Hindu religion for this defeat. The untouchability is another reason for Hindus’ defeat, according to the writer. Uses of elephants in wars, blind faith in religion etc were other reasons for Hindus’ defeats, the writer believes.
In his second chapter, ‘Kya Hindu Bahaduri Se Larhe?’ (Did Hindus fight bravely?), the writer gives many examples to prove that Hindus did not fight bravely.
For example, he says that when Sikandar attacked India in 327 BC, the King of ‘Takshila’ Raja Ambhi sent an envoy to Sikandar and surrendered before him.
Sikandar had 15, 000 armymen and King Porus had 33, 000 armymen, even then Porus was defeated by Sikandar.
In 250 BC, the Bactrian Greeks attacked India. In 180-90 BC, Demitriyas attacked. His military chief Minendra reached Patliputra.
Then came ‘Pahlavs’, who started to capture parts of Sindh. Then, ‘Shakas’ came and they occupied Saurashtra, Gujrat and Avanti.
After Shakas, ‘Kushaans’ attacked India. They conquered Punjab, Sindh and Mathura. Their King Kanishka conquered Bihar and Kashmir.
In 455 AD, the ‘Huns’ started to invade India. Even after this, another races, like Jats, Gujjars and Aheers etc continued to come here and established their kingdoms.
In 653 AD, Abdul Rahman occupied Jabul. In 712 AD, 17 years old Mohammad Bin Qasim attacked Sindh and then occupied Brahmanabad, Allaur, Multan and Kannauj etc.
In 1018 AD, Mahmud reached Buland Shahar and the local ruler Hardatt surrendered before him and embraced Islam along with his 10, 000 people. When Mahmud reached Mathura, the local residents and soldiers ran away without giving a battle. Same happened in Vrindavan. In January 1019, Mahmud attacked Kannauj. The King of Kannauj Rajpal did not dare to oppose him. Mahmud got lots of money, slaves and elephants from Kannauj.
In 1192, Mohammad Gauri defeated Prithavi Raj Chauhan and killed him. There were 1, 20, 000 armymen in Gauri’s army. On the other hand, there were 2, 00, 000 horsemen, 3, 000 elephants in Prithavi’s army.
In 1197, Mohammad Gauri’s general Mohammad Bin Qasim Bakhitiyar attacked Bihar and Bengal along with only 18 horsemen and captured them. He killed thousands of Budhists there in Udandpur.
In 1221, Changez Khan came. He killed many people and set many villages on fire. In 1398 Temur Lame attacked India and killed 1, 00, 000 people in Delhi. He reached Hardwar (a sacred city of Hindus) and killed many people. Then he reached Jammu. The local ruler became Muslim along with his people.
In 1527, babur attacked Rajput warrior Rana Sanga. Babur had 30, 000 soldeirs. Rana Sanga had 2, 01, 000 soldeirs and 1, 000 elephants. Even then, Rana Sanga was defeated and he ran away.
In 1562, King Bihari Mal of Jaipur surrendered before Mogul King Akbar and married his daughter to Akbar.
When Akbar attacked Mewar in 1568, its King Rana Uday Singh ran away and his generals Jaimal and Phatta fought against Akbar. Akbar won and captured the capital.
In 1569, Akbar sent his army towards Ranthambhor. Its King Surjan Rai surrenedered in two mintues. Raja Ramchandra of Kalinjar also surrendered before Akbar’s army.
King Chandrasen of Marwar himself appeared in the court of King Akbar and surrendered. All the Rajput Kings of Bikaner, Jaisalmer, Jodhpur etc surrendered before Akbar.
In 1761, Ahmad Shah Abdali attacked India and defeated Marathas in Panipat.
In the third chapter of his book, the writer questions the ‘morality’ of Hindus. He tells that Krishan encouraged Yudhishthira to tell a lie to kill Dronacharya. Bhagwan Ram killed Bali against the rules. Brahman Pushyamitra killed his own king Brihthrath. King Devbhoomi was killed by his minister Vasudeva. The Hindu queen poisoned his husband King Bhatti Rai of ‘Uchch’. When Sikandar attacked India, Chandragupt Morya gave him a beautiful girl, a philosopher and some other articles as ‘gifts’. Rana Sanga himself invited Babur to attack India and its capital Delhi.
In the fourth chapter of his book, the writer quotes to Rigveda, the sacred book of Hindus, and other Hindu books to prove that Hindus were not non-violent people, as has been said by some foreigner writers.
In fifth, sixth and seventh chapters of his book, the writer has quoted to different religious and other books of Hindus and tried to prove that it was these books, which were responsible for Hindus’ defeat. The writer reaches on conclusion that Hindu culture and Hindu religion are responsible for India’s slavery
KDS, Good work my friend. Appreciate your quoting precise incidents from history and not fiction or folklore.
To answer your following query:
"…If hindu's were so brave then why such a large number of people converted to islam?"
I did not claim anywhere that Hindus were all conquering bravehearts or did I. But you cannot discount few points such as:
Indian rulers (from different ethnic and 'religious' backgrounds such as Rajputs, vaishnavs, Marathas, Jats, Shaives, etc) had one serious problem, besides lack of 'modern' battle strategies, that was UNITY. They could not unify against foreign rulers who almost came every time to Delhi (British and Gorkhas could be the only exceptions) after routing whosoever was ruling punjab.
The selfish Indian kings never fought for their 'country' Bharatvarsha, Aryavarta, whatever but always for their narrow and immediate goals. I give you ,more relevant example here – Hill Rajas. It is not only Guru Gobind Singh against some of whom formed a confederation. they were also plagued by infighting – one hill Raja pitted against another. there are so many instances where GGS also assisted a HR fighting another or a group of HRs.
running out of time this Tuesday morning…. 🙂 would continue later.
Sher
<Indian rulers (from different ethnic and 'religious' backgrounds such as Rajputs, vaishnavs, Marathas, Jats, Shaives, etc) had one serious problem, besides lack of 'modern' battle strategies, that was UNITY>
Well This is just an excuse even muslim rulers don't have unity one muslim ruler keep on routing other to grab power Yet muslims successfully ruled over Hindu India
where there population at that time was not even more than 5%
Rajindersinghvirk, let me put it in simple terms, you are clearly a disturbed individual with a deep rooted hatred for Sikhs and Sikhism. I suggest you seek psychiatric help you deal with your repressed personal issues. It is quite possible that your father may have abused and beaten you like a rented mule when you were younger. It's time for you to look within and release all that shit that is causing you such constipation.
Seek help before it's too late.
H S aka Haroon aka Harpreet Singh aka Jodha aka HinduRajinderVirk aka Jihadi,
PERSONAL ATTACKS AND PROFANITIES AND INVECTIVES ARE NOT ALLOWED ON THIS FORUM I have read somewhere. How and why this intolerant zealot is being err tolerated, I cannot understand.
Sher
Sher, you are too obsessed. Its not me buddy 🙂
@SHER,let me put it in simple terms,the 10 guru was not just humiliated he was beaten like a rented mule,and chased out of punjab.The hatred of sikhs against subedar Wazir Khan of sirhind is not just,because he executed the guru's sons,but also that the subedar did his job upto the end and was successful.The subedar did every thing succssessfuly that he was ordered to do,unlike the sikhs who lost every battle,and in the end lost the war,as the tenth guru not only accepted the khillat but also accepted the employment of bahadur shah.No different what today's so called baba's do.
Thank you Mr virk for calling Guru gobind singh ji a rented mule.Perhaps Sikhs never learnt the
From Great Hindu Kings Like Prithviraj Chauhan ,Dahir etc that How to loose battle when you have 3-4 times more resources than enemy
KDS,
Please be clear on your observation about "great" Hindu Kings. Also mention the time it took the Islamic marauders to finally establish themselves in Hindustan – FIVE CENTURIES!!! after Dahir was defeated and accepted death on the battlefield. who was protecting Indian borders for all these five centuries while Muslims were trouncing and conquering every empire up to spain in europe?
Please do not get carried away by the boastful Khalistani or other sikih websites. Think rationally and learn to question established beliefs.
Sher
Sher
It is not me who get away with Khalistani propaganda ,but you certainly is carried by Hindu propaganda.
One of the biggest fact of today is 0.5 billion muslim population
of Indian subcontinent is of Hindu descendent .If hindu's were so brave then why such a large number of people converted to islam?
Please read the following content from a book written by a hindu
http://www.amritworld.com/book_reviews/hindu_itih…
Book: Hindu Itihas: Haaron Kee Daastaan.
Writer: Dr. Surendra Kumar Sharma 'Agiyaat',
M.A. (Hindi), Ph. D. (Punjab), M. A. (Sanskrit), Ph. D. (America).
Language: Hindi.
Pages: 134.
Third Edition.
Price: Rs 40.
Publisher and Printer: Vishv Vijay Pvt. Ltd,
M-12, Connaught Circus, New Delhi – 110001. (India).
In recent years, some books have been published against Hindus and their religion. Most of such books are just an open demonstration of hatred towards Hindus. Such writers do not bother even to check the 'facts' they have been giving in their books. An ordinary reader accepts whatever is printed in a book shape. No wonder, we hear such slogans in 'secular India', " 'Tilak', 'Taraazu' aur 'Talvaar'. In Ko Maaro Joote Chaar".
The book 'Hindu Itihas: Haaron Kee Daastaan' (Hindu history: the tale of defeats) is though criticizes Hindus, but is free from any obvious hatred against them. Even then, there are some points, which cannot be accepted in the light of other facts, which seems to be hidden by the learned writer, who is, by chance, a Brahman by caste.
How should we write our history? Should we hide our past if it is black? The writer, Dr. Surendra Kumar Sharma 'Agiyaat', says that Hindus have a strange conception towards history. They present the black past after whitewashing it. They hope that it will be accepted as authentic history. The writer says that inferior complex is working behind it, which is found in those people, who have some specific defect.
Some friends, and enemies too, say to the writer that the filth should not be brought forward. It should be kept concealed. However, the writer thinks in a different way. He thinks that if the history is bad in reality, even then there is nothing wrong; because in that condition, we can find out what our faults were, if we analyze such history.
Some people describe the personal gains of Shiva Ji and Rana Pratap and say that our history was splendor. However, the writer, Dr. Surendra Kumar Sharma 'Agiyaat, does not accept this. He questions, "Are one or two persons your history of thousands of years? If your history is really a splendor one, why a handful of invaders used to rule here for thousand of years, regardless of your Rana Prataps and Shivajis?"
The writer asks further, "Is it not the bitter truth of 'your' history that all the life of Rana Pratap passed fighting against those hindus, who were playing part of hunting dogs for Akbar, the Mogul King; and the 'Purohits' refused to perform the ceremony of crowning for Shivaji despite all his gains?"
In the first chapter of his book, the writer blames the Hindu religion for all the defeats of Hindus. Giving example of battle of 'Trayin' in 1192 AD, he says that it was unreligious for a Hindu to take food without taking bath and worshiping his god, so when Mohammad Gauri attacked Prithvi Raj's (Hindu) army suddenly in early morning, they were not able to fight with empty stomachs for long. Thus, the writer blames Hindu religion for this defeat. The untouchability is another reason for Hindus' defeat, according to the writer. Uses of elephants in wars, blind faith in religion etc were other reasons for Hindus' defeats, the writer believes.
In his second chapter, 'Kya Hindu Bahaduri Se Larhe?' (Did Hindus fight bravely?), the writer gives many examples to prove that Hindus did not fight bravely.
For example, he says that when Sikandar attacked India in 327 BC, the King of 'Takshila' Raja Ambhi sent an envoy to Sikandar and surrendered before him.
Sikandar had 15, 000 armymen and King Porus had 33, 000 armymen, even then Porus was defeated by Sikandar.
In 250 BC, the Bactrian Greeks attacked India. In 180-90 BC, Demitriyas attacked. His military chief Minendra reached Patliputra.
Then came 'Pahlavs', who started to capture parts of Sindh. Then, 'Shakas' came and they occupied Saurashtra, Gujrat and Avanti.
After Shakas, 'Kushaans' attacked India. They conquered Punjab, Sindh and Mathura. Their King Kanishka conquered Bihar and Kashmir.
In 455 AD, the 'Huns' started to invade India. Even after this, another races, like Jats, Gujjars and Aheers etc continued to come here and established their kingdoms.
In 653 AD, Abdul Rahman occupied Jabul. In 712 AD, 17 years old Mohammad Bin Qasim attacked Sindh and then occupied Brahmanabad, Allaur, Multan and Kannauj etc.
In 1018 AD, Mahmud reached Buland Shahar and the local ruler Hardatt surrendered before him and embraced Islam along with his 10, 000 people. When Mahmud reached Mathura, the local residents and soldiers ran away without giving a battle. Same happened in Vrindavan. In January 1019, Mahmud attacked Kannauj. The King of Kannauj Rajpal did not dare to oppose him. Mahmud got lots of money, slaves and elephants from Kannauj.
In 1192, Mohammad Gauri defeated Prithavi Raj Chauhan and killed him. There were 1, 20, 000 armymen in Gauri's army. On the other hand, there were 2, 00, 000 horsemen, 3, 000 elephants in Prithavi's army.
In 1197, Mohammad Gauri's general Mohammad Bin Qasim Bakhitiyar attacked Bihar and Bengal along with only 18 horsemen and captured them. He killed thousands of Budhists there in Udandpur.
In 1221, Changez Khan came. He killed many people and set many villages on fire. In 1398 Temur Lame attacked India and killed 1, 00, 000 people in Delhi. He reached Hardwar (a sacred city of Hindus) and killed many people. Then he reached Jammu. The local ruler became Muslim along with his people.
In 1527, babur attacked Rajput warrior Rana Sanga. Babur had 30, 000 soldeirs. Rana Sanga had 2, 01, 000 soldeirs and 1, 000 elephants. Even then, Rana Sanga was defeated and he ran away.
In 1562, King Bihari Mal of Jaipur surrendered before Mogul King Akbar and married his daughter to Akbar.
When Akbar attacked Mewar in 1568, its King Rana Uday Singh ran away and his generals Jaimal and Phatta fought against Akbar. Akbar won and captured the capital.
In 1569, Akbar sent his army towards Ranthambhor. Its King Surjan Rai surrenedered in two mintues. Raja Ramchandra of Kalinjar also surrendered before Akbar's army.
King Chandrasen of Marwar himself appeared in the court of King Akbar and surrendered. All the Rajput Kings of Bikaner, Jaisalmer, Jodhpur etc surrendered before Akbar.
In 1761, Ahmad Shah Abdali attacked India and defeated Marathas in Panipat.
In the third chapter of his book, the writer questions the 'morality' of Hindus. He tells that Krishan encouraged Yudhishthira to tell a lie to kill Dronacharya. Bhagwan Ram killed Bali against the rules. Brahman Pushyamitra killed his own king Brihthrath. King Devbhoomi was killed by his minister Vasudeva. The Hindu queen poisoned his husband King Bhatti Rai of 'Uchch'. When Sikandar attacked India, Chandragupt Morya gave him a beautiful girl, a philosopher and some other articles as 'gifts'. Rana Sanga himself invited Babur to attack India and its capital Delhi.
In the fourth chapter of his book, the writer quotes to Rigveda, the sacred book of Hindus, and other Hindu books to prove that Hindus were not non-violent people, as has been said by some foreigner writers.
In fifth, sixth and seventh chapters of his book, the writer has quoted to different religious and other books of Hindus and tried to prove that it was these books, which were responsible for Hindus' defeat. The writer reaches on conclusion that Hindu culture and Hindu religion are responsible for India's slavery
KDS, Good work my friend. Appreciate your quoting precise incidents from history and not fiction or folklore.
To answer your following query:
"…If hindu's were so brave then why such a large number of people converted to islam?"
I did not claim anywhere that Hindus were all conquering bravehearts or did I. But you cannot discount few points such as:
Indian rulers (from different ethnic and 'religious' backgrounds such as Rajputs, vaishnavs, Marathas, Jats, Shaives, etc) had one serious problem, besides lack of 'modern' battle strategies, that was UNITY. They could not unify against foreign rulers who almost came every time to Delhi (British and Gorkhas could be the only exceptions) after routing whosoever was ruling punjab.
The selfish Indian kings never fought for their 'country' Bharatvarsha, Aryavarta, whatever but always for their narrow and immediate goals. I give you ,more relevant example here – Hill Rajas. It is not only Guru Gobind Singh against some of whom formed a confederation. they were also plagued by infighting – one hill Raja pitted against another. there are so many instances where GGS also assisted a HR fighting another or a group of HRs.
running out of time this Tuesday morning…. 🙂 would continue later.
Sher
<Indian rulers (from different ethnic and 'religious' backgrounds such as Rajputs, vaishnavs, Marathas, Jats, Shaives, etc) had one serious problem, besides lack of 'modern' battle strategies, that was UNITY>
Well This is just an excuse even muslim rulers don't have unity one muslim ruler keep on routing other to grab power Yet muslims successfully ruled over Hindu India
where there population at that time was not even more than 5%
Rajindersinghvirk, let me put it in simple terms, you are clearly a disturbed individual with a deep rooted hatred for Sikhs and Sikhism. I suggest you seek psychiatric help you deal with your repressed personal issues. It is quite possible that your father may have abused and beaten you like a rented mule when you were younger. It's time for you to look within and release all that shit that is causing you such constipation.
Seek help before it's too late.
H S aka Haroon aka Harpreet Singh aka Jodha aka HinduRajinderVirk aka Jihadi,
PERSONAL ATTACKS AND PROFANITIES AND INVECTIVES ARE NOT ALLOWED ON THIS FORUM I have read somewhere. How and why this intolerant zealot is being err tolerated, I cannot understand.
Sher
Sher, you are too obsessed. Its not me buddy 🙂
" it took you so long to find answer to my simple query. i know very hard to find even few words to back your assertion that G T bahadur gave life for ANOTHER religion."
Firstly, It took me so long to answer you, not to find an answer. I was debating whether it was worth wasting time correcting you when you make false accusations on purpose then twist whatever was said to suit your purposes. I've realized it wasn't, so I'll try to make this my last.
Secondly, why can't you belive Guru Tegh Bahadur gave life to save another relgion. When Guru Granth Sahib Ji says Kindness and Mercy are the greatest qualities, then why would Guru Ji ignore the pleas of Kashmiri Pundits (btw, if guru Ji was a Hindu like u say, y would the pundits need to ask him to help?) Next you'll be sayin Sikhs did not rescue Hindu girls from Abdali etc. If sikhs can fight for persons of another religion, then of course their Guru did stand up against tyranny(no matter who it was aimed at) and for religious freedom. Also as u keep saying Guru Ji were Hindus then why was Bhai Mardana a muslim, why did Guru Nanak visit Mecca? Why did many Muslims convert to Sikhi?Why were Muslim pirs (mian mir, bhudu Shah) friends of the gurus? Based on this, many even say the Gurus were Sufi Muslims. Why is it hard to accept that Sikhi is different from Islam and Hindu (sanatan Dharam)
Yes our forefathers were Hindus(mostly) but that doesn't mean we are. Guru Ji did not create a different race but a different religion. Going on ur logic, there is no Christianity because Jesus/followers were Jewish(controversial) and so still are, or that all muslims are kafirs because their ancestors(mostly) were pagan tribal people.
Hindus should be thankful, but instead some say Guru Tegh Bahadur gave his life for a dispute about tankah(salary) others say he was a hindu himself. (Not all Hindus deny this, few are also thankful)
to us Sikhs, Guru Tegh Bahadur is an eternal example of selflessness and kindness and also "do not create fear in others, and do not accept fear of anyone"
"jaundiced perspective that Sikhs were totally different religion the day Nanak was born"
No, it took some 200 years (from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh) to get rid of Hindu influences and to create different religion 🙂
Nimrata ji,
PRATHAM BHAGAUTI SIMAR KE…
I have tried to put these answers together. short of time today on this day when the hazoori katha vachak in the 'ancient' Gurudwara next to my place is telling us how much a "sangrand' day is important and what is its importance in 'Jyotish vidya'. Talking about 'karma, parmeshwar, incarnations, parhlad, …." so on and i am thinking..where is the difference and why Arya Samaj temple i am 'forced' to go some times is SO DIFFERENT from sanatan Hindu traditions?
"…so I'll try to make this my last." your decision, I cannot comment.
"…Granth Sahib Ji says Kindness and Mercy are the greatest qualities"
Try telling this to your sabre-rattling cyber-kharkoos who believe there has not been a all-conquering and brave community as sikh. tell this more importantly to those who have portraits of cold-blooded killers and hate-mongers in their Gurudwaras.
"…btw, if guru Ji was a Hindu like u say, y would the pundits need to ask him to help?"
Thats precisely what i would like to know, WHY PUNDITS WOULD (IF THEY DID) GO TO A NON-HINDU FOR HELP AND ASK HIM TO REPRESENT THEM? Thanks for posing this question.
Next you'll be sayin Sikhs did not rescue Hindu girls from Abdali et"
No, I would not, two reasons, 'Hindus' rescuing Hindus and secondly these were isolated incidents. ok, would add few questions, why would Muslim invaders leave 'Sikh' women alone? why not snatch them too? and how about 'sikh' women taking shelter in 'Hindu' Raja's territory when exposed to Muslim invading armies? Do you realise Punjab has been under the foreigner rule for the longest of all the modern day Indian states?
".. Guru Ji were Hindus then why was Bhai Mardana a muslim?" what is this question, i did not understand. the descendants of Mardana are Muslims even today, if he became a sikh, how come his descendants are still Muslims?
"…why did Guru Nanak visit Mecca?" Did he really? not much evidence unfortunately to back this 'fiction'.
"…Why did many Muslims convert to Sikhi?" Did they ? can we count the numbers on one hand or two? Can you name ANY Muslim who became a Sikh in Gurus' times? you know a Muslim cannot leave Islam, capital punishment even TODAY for this CRIME.
"…many even say the Gurus were Sufi Muslim" if Gurus did five times namaz and followed other tenets of Islam…and lived like a Muslim householder. Did they?
Why were Muslim pirs (mian mir, bhudu Shah) friends of the gurus? "
You have modern day Guru in the name of 'Google'. Research 'Mian Mir' and let me know when he was FIRST mentioned as a 'friend' of Sikhs.
Why is it hard to accept that Sikhi is different from Islam and Hindu (sanatan Dharam)"
Because it is NOT.
Give me reasons why you think it is different from Hindu way of life. ALSO I HAVE SAID SO MANY TIMES SIKHISM IS A SEPARATE RELIGION TODAY BECAUSE OF ILL-INFORMED SIKHS LIKE YOU (pls do not take that as an offense but your 'research' shows you DO NOT want to believe for one second that Sikhism follows the same philosophy, same reigious symbolism, same 'idol worship' as Sanatam Hindus).
"…, it took some 200 years (from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh) to get rid of Hindu influences and to create different religion :)"
Can you please list those Hindu influences" which Sikhs have got rid of?
Also, can you show one instance where Gurus have used the terms "Sikh and dharm" together.
PLEASE SHOW SOME INTELLECTUAL HONESTY here. Do not leave these questions unanswered and my answers unexplored.
Sher
I could never understand y no one ever bothers to answer ur questions/accusations. So I decided to try my hand at it. I realize now: it is pointless/worthless/waste of time. Since u have a knack of discrediting any evidence provided that u can't refute. Like I said I have better things to do.
btw why do Hindus mind if Sikhs want to be seperate, if I was a Hindu I would think it's their loss etc and leave them at it. The more u argue with someone, the more they will stick to their stand.
Oh and u do provide some good questions like the fact that Sikhs have not got rid of most Hindu influences. I think Macauliffe can provide the answer to that.He states that Hinduism is like a Hydra snake, it crushes or swallows all those that oppose it. He provided the example of Budhiasm. And he states that SIkhism is in the same danger if not saved and that Hindu rituals are slowly snaking their way into Sikhi …etc
btw y don't u read Macauliffe? he's not a SIkh, and he researched and did things before SGPC had time to change thing like u claim. And his writings on Sikhism would answer all ur questions about history. (u can't possible discredit this author, esp since he was quoted profusely in an article, u provided the link to)
tempted to have a brief go at nimrata's msg.
ok, nimrata Hindus are hydra snakes, they drink bovine urine (as one poster would like us to believe), they are cowards, they ALL are idol-worshipers, etc. BUT you need to address my query:
"Can you please list those Hindu influences" which Sikhs have got rid of? "
And i do not have problem with Sikhism being a sep religion. IT IS a sep religion for all the practical reasons. my beef is with those (you are one of them) who deny their origins and continuous 'influences'. As far as religious philosophy is concerned, v hard to find ANY difference between the two. You can have a go, try.
Regards
Sher
The history lesson will be later.
" it took you so long to find answer to my simple query. i know very hard to find even few words to back your assertion that G T bahadur gave life for ANOTHER religion."
Firstly, It took me so long to answer you, not to find an answer. I was debating whether it was worth wasting time correcting you when you make false accusations on purpose then twist whatever was said to suit your purposes. I've realized it wasn't, so I'll try to make this my last.
Secondly, why can't you belive Guru Tegh Bahadur gave life to save another relgion. When Guru Granth Sahib Ji says Kindness and Mercy are the greatest qualities, then why would Guru Ji ignore the pleas of Kashmiri Pundits (btw, if guru Ji was a Hindu like u say, y would the pundits need to ask him to help?) Next you'll be sayin Sikhs did not rescue Hindu girls from Abdali etc. If sikhs can fight for persons of another religion, then of course their Guru did stand up against tyranny(no matter who it was aimed at) and for religious freedom. Also as u keep saying Guru Ji were Hindus then why was Bhai Mardana a muslim, why did Guru Nanak visit Mecca? Why did many Muslims convert to Sikhi?Why were Muslim pirs (mian mir, bhudu Shah) friends of the gurus? Based on this, many even say the Gurus were Sufi Muslims. Why is it hard to accept that Sikhi is different from Islam and Hindu (sanatan Dharam)
Yes our forefathers were Hindus(mostly) but that doesn't mean we are. Guru Ji did not create a different race but a different religion. Going on ur logic, there is no Christianity because Jesus/followers were Jewish(controversial) and so still are, or that all muslims are kafirs because their ancestors(mostly) were pagan tribal people.
Hindus should be thankful, but instead some say Guru Tegh Bahadur gave his life for a dispute about tankah(salary) others say he was a hindu himself. (Not all Hindus deny this, few are also thankful)
to us Sikhs, Guru Tegh Bahadur is an eternal example of selflessness and kindness and also "do not create fear in others, and do not accept fear of anyone"
"jaundiced perspective that Sikhs were totally different religion the day Nanak was born"
No, it took some 200 years (from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh) to get rid of Hindu influences and to create different religion 🙂
Nimrata ji,
PRATHAM BHAGAUTI SIMAR KE…
I have tried to put these answers together. short of time today on this day when the hazoori katha vachak in the 'ancient' Gurudwara next to my place is telling us how much a "sangrand' day is important and what is its importance in 'Jyotish vidya'. Talking about 'karma, parmeshwar, incarnations, parhlad, …." so on and i am thinking..where is the difference and why Arya Samaj temple i am 'forced' to go some times is SO DIFFERENT from sanatan Hindu traditions?
"…so I'll try to make this my last." your decision, I cannot comment.
"…Granth Sahib Ji says Kindness and Mercy are the greatest qualities"
Try telling this to your sabre-rattling cyber-kharkoos who believe there has not been a all-conquering and brave community as sikh. tell this more importantly to those who have portraits of cold-blooded killers and hate-mongers in their Gurudwaras.
"…btw, if guru Ji was a Hindu like u say, y would the pundits need to ask him to help?"
Thats precisely what i would like to know, WHY PUNDITS WOULD (IF THEY DID) GO TO A NON-HINDU FOR HELP AND ASK HIM TO REPRESENT THEM? Thanks for posing this question.
Next you'll be sayin Sikhs did not rescue Hindu girls from Abdali et"
No, I would not, two reasons, 'Hindus' rescuing Hindus and secondly these were isolated incidents. ok, would add few questions, why would Muslim invaders leave 'Sikh' women alone? why not snatch them too? and how about 'sikh' women taking shelter in 'Hindu' Raja's territory when exposed to Muslim invading armies? Do you realise Punjab has been under the foreigner rule for the longest of all the modern day Indian states?
".. Guru Ji were Hindus then why was Bhai Mardana a muslim?" what is this question, i did not understand. the descendants of Mardana are Muslims even today, if he became a sikh, how come his descendants are still Muslims?
"…why did Guru Nanak visit Mecca?" Did he really? not much evidence unfortunately to back this 'fiction'.
"…Why did many Muslims convert to Sikhi?" Did they ? can we count the numbers on one hand or two? Can you name ANY Muslim who became a Sikh in Gurus' times? you know a Muslim cannot leave Islam, capital punishment even TODAY for this CRIME.
"…many even say the Gurus were Sufi Muslim" if Gurus did five times namaz and followed other tenets of Islam…and lived like a Muslim householder. Did they?
Why were Muslim pirs (mian mir, bhudu Shah) friends of the gurus? "
You have modern day Guru in the name of 'Google'. Research 'Mian Mir' and let me know when he was FIRST mentioned as a 'friend' of Sikhs.
Why is it hard to accept that Sikhi is different from Islam and Hindu (sanatan Dharam)"
Because it is NOT.
Give me reasons why you think it is different from Hindu way of life. ALSO I HAVE SAID SO MANY TIMES SIKHISM IS A SEPARATE RELIGION TODAY BECAUSE OF ILL-INFORMED SIKHS LIKE YOU (pls do not take that as an offense but your 'research' shows you DO NOT want to believe for one second that Sikhism follows the same philosophy, same reigious symbolism, same 'idol worship' as Sanatam Hindus).
"…, it took some 200 years (from Guru Nanak to Guru Gobind Singh) to get rid of Hindu influences and to create different religion :)"
Can you please list those Hindu influences" which Sikhs have got rid of?
Also, can you show one instance where Gurus have used the terms "Sikh and dharm" together.
PLEASE SHOW SOME INTELLECTUAL HONESTY here. Do not leave these questions unanswered and my answers unexplored.
Sher
I could never understand y no one ever bothers to answer ur questions/accusations. So I decided to try my hand at it. I realize now: it is pointless/worthless/waste of time. Since u have a knack of discrediting any evidence provided that u can't refute. Like I said I have better things to do.
btw why do Hindus mind if Sikhs want to be seperate, if I was a Hindu I would think it's their loss etc and leave them at it. The more u argue with someone, the more they will stick to their stand.
Oh and u do provide some good questions like the fact that Sikhs have not got rid of most Hindu influences. I think Macauliffe can provide the answer to that.He states that Hinduism is like a Hydra snake, it crushes or swallows all those that oppose it. He provided the example of Budhiasm. And he states that SIkhism is in the same danger if not saved and that Hindu rituals are slowly snaking their way into Sikhi …etc
btw y don't u read Macauliffe? he's not a SIkh, and he researched and did things before SGPC had time to change thing like u claim. And his writings on Sikhism would answer all ur questions about history. (u can't possible discredit this author, esp since he was quoted profusely in an article, u provided the link to)
tempted to have a brief go at nimrata's msg.
ok, nimrata Hindus are hydra snakes, they drink bovine urine (as one poster would like us to believe), they are cowards, they ALL are idol-worshipers, etc. BUT you need to address my query:
"Can you please list those Hindu influences" which Sikhs have got rid of? "
And i do not have problem with Sikhism being a sep religion. IT IS a sep religion for all the practical reasons. my beef is with those (you are one of them) who deny their origins and continuous 'influences'. As far as religious philosophy is concerned, v hard to find ANY difference between the two. You can have a go, try.
Regards
Sher
Sikhs guru is gurbani not ithiaas (history). We realize it has been changed. The established history of Guru Gobind SIngh Ji : (unlike some ppl i have a life and do not go around changing/twisting established facts for no reason at all)
Guru Gobind SIngh Ji managed to escape from the siege at Anandpur. Escape is not the same as running away, esp since Guru Ji continued to fight the Mughal/Hindu army after leaving Anandpur Sahib.(which in not a humiliation cause Guru Ji survived 10 months of seige and did not give up.[btw the best way to win in a seige is to get out of it, and fight openly]And probably left Fort of Anandpur Sahib in order to battle openly and also left upon the request of the Army. When leaving he got seperated from sons,etc. And some see this as humiliation but really is ultimate sacrifice. THe only way to remain in castles, forts those days was to pay homage to Mughals as Hill Kings,Rajputs, and other Hindus did.)
As to Bahadur Shah, Guru ji helped him win the throne with the conditions that he would punish the evildoers such as Wazir Khan. Guru Ji was not against Muslims, just the jalami(evil/cruel). So if money/gifts were exchanged so what? You can read further on these links which also include Recorded historical facts even the Akhbar-e-Darbar-i-Mualla of July 24, 1707: http://sikhinstitute.org/jan_2010/9-bsdhillon.htm…
Sikhs guru is gurbani not ithiaas (history). We realize it has been changed"
who changed it or is changing it? which are the AUTHENTIC sources of Sikh history you know of?
Escape is not the same as running away"
Thanks for volunteering to correct me but 'escape' does mean 'running away'. just check a thesaurus and you would find the following synonyms among others:
"AWOL, abdication, avoidance, beat, bolt, desertion …disappearance, dodging, ducking, elopement, elusion, elusiveness, eschewal, evasion, evasiveness,….flight …hegira…..retreat, runaround, shunning, sidestepping, slip, spring, withdrawal"
whatever these negative traits means they do not mean VALOUR even by wildest of imagination.
"And probably left Fort of Anandpur Sahib in order to battle openly.." Unfortunately not, as he kept…err running till the chasing forces caught up with him and slaughtered the remaining sikhs. Guruji still managed to "escape" and kept running till he found some safe heaven to hide.
"…THe only way to remain in castles, forts those days was to pay homage to Mughals as Hill Kings,Rajputs, and other Hindus did"
I take your sarcasm with utmost nimrata. 🙂
know what Nimrata, you need some serious lessons in history. just a few brief ones here:
It was a Hindu (banda bahadur) who restored sikh respect to some levels.
It was Raghunath Rao (brahmin Peshwa descendant from marathas) and his HINDU forces who captured Lahore next in 1756 and drove pathans up to Khyber Pass in the North west. have a look at map and see how far Marathas were from their capital Pune.
Checkout who was under muslim rulers for the longest- answer Punjab.
Checkout Maratha empire map and let us know for how many years they had independent empire.
checkout for long Mughal emperors like Aurangzeb tried to subdue Marathas alone and failed leading to the fall of mughals (17 years if i am not wrong).
Tell us if a Mughal emperor EVER fought against Sikhs? NEVER. they were considered too insignificant for emperor to bother himself.
Checkout how Maratha peshwas died with valour in the third battle of Panipat. "escape" was not an option for them.
checkout how many battles Rajputs fought with Mughals. tell us how jats of bharatpur (Rajsthan) captured mughal capital and other regions.
can you name some of M. Ranjit singh's generals?
let us know who saved India (inc modern Punjab exc Mulltan) for FIVE centuries after Muslims defeated Raja Dahir of Sind (due to Jat, Buddhist treachery) in 8th century.
i can go on but you seem to have narrow-thinking closed to INDEPENDENT research.
History is a brutal, unforgiving subject nimarata. let the sleeping dogs lie as the answers to the above questions would disturb you too much.
sher
Since you do not credit the research done by Sikhs, Read Hastings (Englishman). He writes about how Punjab the entryway into India( would explain why Punjab was "under muslim rulers the longest" if it was) from Afghanistan etc was defended by the Sikhs.
Maharaja Ranjit's General: Hari SIngh Nalwa (wait let me guess…..he was a myth too, or a hindu……or any of ur other excuses when u can't discredit the person etc)
The history lesson will be later.
Sikhs guru is gurbani not ithiaas (history). We realize it has been changed. The established history of Guru Gobind SIngh Ji : (unlike some ppl i have a life and do not go around changing/twisting established facts for no reason at all)
Guru Gobind SIngh Ji managed to escape from the siege at Anandpur. Escape is not the same as running away, esp since Guru Ji continued to fight the Mughal/Hindu army after leaving Anandpur Sahib.(which in not a humiliation cause Guru Ji survived 10 months of seige and did not give up.[btw the best way to win in a seige is to get out of it, and fight openly]And probably left Fort of Anandpur Sahib in order to battle openly and also left upon the request of the Army. When leaving he got seperated from sons,etc. And some see this as humiliation but really is ultimate sacrifice. THe only way to remain in castles, forts those days was to pay homage to Mughals as Hill Kings,Rajputs, and other Hindus did.)
As to Bahadur Shah, Guru ji helped him win the throne with the conditions that he would punish the evildoers such as Wazir Khan. Guru Ji was not against Muslims, just the jalami(evil/cruel). So if money/gifts were exchanged so what? You can read further on these links which also include Recorded historical facts even the Akhbar-e-Darbar-i-Mualla of July 24, 1707: http://sikhinstitute.org/jan_2010/9-bsdhillon.htm…
Sikhs guru is gurbani not ithiaas (history). We realize it has been changed"
who changed it or is changing it? which are the AUTHENTIC sources of Sikh history you know of?
Escape is not the same as running away"
Thanks for volunteering to correct me but 'escape' does mean 'running away'. just check a thesaurus and you would find the following synonyms among others:
"AWOL, abdication, avoidance, beat, bolt, desertion …disappearance, dodging, ducking, elopement, elusion, elusiveness, eschewal, evasion, evasiveness,….flight …hegira…..retreat, runaround, shunning, sidestepping, slip, spring, withdrawal"
whatever these negative traits means they do not mean VALOUR even by wildest of imagination.
"And probably left Fort of Anandpur Sahib in order to battle openly.." Unfortunately not, as he kept…err running till the chasing forces caught up with him and slaughtered the remaining sikhs. Guruji still managed to "escape" and kept running till he found some safe heaven to hide.
"…THe only way to remain in castles, forts those days was to pay homage to Mughals as Hill Kings,Rajputs, and other Hindus did"
I take your sarcasm with utmost nimrata. 🙂
know what Nimrata, you need some serious lessons in history. just a few brief ones here:
It was a Hindu (banda bahadur) who restored sikh respect to some levels.
It was Raghunath Rao (brahmin Peshwa descendant from marathas) and his HINDU forces who captured Lahore next in 1756 and drove pathans up to Khyber Pass in the North west. have a look at map and see how far Marathas were from their capital Pune.
Checkout who was under muslim rulers for the longest- answer Punjab.
Checkout Maratha empire map and let us know for how many years they had independent empire.
checkout for long Mughal emperors like Aurangzeb tried to subdue Marathas alone and failed leading to the fall of mughals (17 years if i am not wrong).
Tell us if a Mughal emperor EVER fought against Sikhs? NEVER. they were considered too insignificant for emperor to bother himself.
Checkout how Maratha peshwas died with valour in the third battle of Panipat. "escape" was not an option for them.
checkout how many battles Rajputs fought with Mughals. tell us how jats of bharatpur (Rajsthan) captured mughal capital and other regions.
can you name some of M. Ranjit singh's generals?
let us know who saved India (inc modern Punjab exc Mulltan) for FIVE centuries after Muslims defeated Raja Dahir of Sind (due to Jat, Buddhist treachery) in 8th century.
i can go on but you seem to have narrow-thinking closed to INDEPENDENT research.
History is a brutal, unforgiving subject nimarata. let the sleeping dogs lie as the answers to the above questions would disturb you too much.
sher
Since you do not credit the research done by Sikhs, Read Hastings (Englishman). He writes about how Punjab the entryway into India( would explain why Punjab was "under muslim rulers the longest" if it was) from Afghanistan etc was defended by the Sikhs.
Maharaja Ranjit's General: Hari SIngh Nalwa (wait let me guess…..he was a myth too, or a hindu……or any of ur other excuses when u can't discredit the person etc)
Sher
Ur contradictory. U say Sikhs are Hindus then u say something like "It was a Hindu (banda bahadur) who restored sikh respect to some levels." which shows u yourself can't think of them as the same people, That it is impossible to imagine them, the same.
Sher
Ur contradictory. U say Sikhs are Hindus then u say something like "It was a Hindu (banda bahadur) who restored sikh respect to some levels." which shows u yourself can't think of them as the same people, That it is impossible to imagine them, the same.
<It was Raghunath Rao (brahmin Peshwa descendant from marathas) and his HINDU forces who captured Lahore next in 1756 and drove pathans up to Khyber Pass in the North west. have a look at map and see how far Marathas were from their capital Pune.>
Raghunath rao invaded punjab on the invitation of Adina beg and they restored him governer on the condition that he will pay them chauth.The same Adina beg was very cruel and enemy of sikhs.He remained governer just for six months after maratha departed from there.
<Checkout how Maratha peshwas died with valour in the third battle of Panipat. "escape" was not an option for them.>
Shivaji escaped from prison of Aurangzeb
mahadjit scindia escaped from battle of panipat and later on became Great maratha general
Nana phadnavis escaped from battle of Panipat and later on became peshwa
Now please go to any maratha blog and say that they are cowards too.I am really sorry to say that escaping of leaders is strategy not a cowardice as they can regroup and take revenge.One thing I don't understand in whole history is why so many hindu rulers died on Battlefield while hardly any muslim ruler died in battle.I must say they were very clever by doing that
<It was Raghunath Rao (brahmin Peshwa descendant from marathas) and his HINDU forces who captured Lahore next in 1756 and drove pathans up to Khyber Pass in the North west. have a look at map and see how far Marathas were from their capital Pune.>
Raghunath rao invaded punjab on the invitation of Adina beg and they restored him governer on the condition that he will pay them chauth.The same Adina beg was very cruel and enemy of sikhs.He remained governer just for six months after maratha departed from there.
<Checkout how Maratha peshwas died with valour in the third battle of Panipat. "escape" was not an option for them.>
Shivaji escaped from prison of Aurangzeb
mahadjit scindia escaped from battle of panipat and later on became Great maratha general
Nana phadnavis escaped from battle of Panipat and later on became peshwa
Now please go to any maratha blog and say that they are cowards too.I am really sorry to say that escaping of leaders is strategy not a cowardice as they can regroup and take revenge.One thing I don't understand in whole history is why so many hindu rulers died on Battlefield while hardly any muslim ruler died in battle.I must say they were very clever by doing that