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And Still We Will Fight
Despite tanks rolling into the Guru’s Court (Darbar Sahib)
When a Singh’s head, becomes hunted as a sport (Delhi 1984)
Despite Kaljug sitting on his throne supreme
When the world trembles from tyranny’s regime
And Still We Will Fight
Although hardly a newsflash, last week a Delhi Court acquitted three murderers. Although low-level players in the Government-sponsored pogroms in Delhi and throughout India in November 1984, their acquittal further illustrates that it is Kaljug that reigns supreme in India.
Additional Sessions Judge Pinki acquitted Jagdish Singh, Sajjan Singh and Ishwar Singh, who were charged with leading a mob which allegedly killed Gurbakshish Singh outside his residence in Paschim Vihar locality on November one, 1984, during the riots that followed the assassination of the then prime minister Indira Gandhi.[link]
In this 25th year of remembrance, people in our own community sometimes state, “What’s done is done. Why are you harping on the past? Sikhs in India have moved on. Let it go.” Still when injustice continues to be the norm and the square wheels of Indian justice cannot turn, then still we will fight. In solidarity, in remembrance, in today’s reality – and still we fight.
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Stop whinning,about 150 people have been prosecuted and punished.The punishments may not be as severe as some had expected,but the wheels of justice have spun & the courts have worked.So the sikhs should stop crying like babies & start looking at themselves,& try to figure3 out who is misleading them now.
Stop whinning,about 150 people have been prosecuted and punished.The punishments may not be as severe as some had expected,but the wheels of justice have spun & the courts have worked.So the sikhs should stop crying like babies & start looking at themselves,& try to figure3 out who is misleading them now.
Wow - I could write an essay on how off-the-mark you are in your understanding. But I won't. I think anyone who has done even a half-ass study of the 1984 Delhi massacre of the Sikhs, will have no problems in placing a value to your comment above.
When someone says 2+2=674, an essay on mathematics is not required to prove them wrong; anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of arithmetic can see the flawed equation for what it is.
Educate yourself, lest you continue to betray your ignorance. I suggest you start with "When A Tree Shook Delhi", written by H.S. Phoolka and Manoj Mitta.
(H.S. Phoolka is a senior advocate practising in Delhi, who is also designated counsel for the central government, Punjab government and Election Commission of India.)
When someone says 2+2=674, an essay on mathematics is not required to prove them wrong; anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of arithmetic can see the flawed equation for what it is.
Educate yourself, lest you continue to betray your ignorance. I suggest you start with "When A Tree Shook Delhi", written by H.S. Phoolka and Manoj Mitta.
(H.S. Phoolka is a senior advocate practising in Delhi, who is also designated counsel for the central government, Punjab government and Election Commission of India.)
Wow - I could write an essay on how off-the-mark you are in your understanding. But I won't. I think anyone who has done even a half-ass study of the 1984 Delhi massacre of the Sikhs, will have no problems in placing a value to your comment above.
When someone says 2+2=674, an essay on mathematics is not required to prove them wrong; anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of arithmetic can see the flawed equation for what it is.
Educate yourself, lest you continue to betray your ignorance. I suggest you start with "When A Tree Shook Delhi", written by H.S. Phoolka and Manoj Mitta.
(H.S. Phoolka is a senior advocate practising in Delhi, who is also designated counsel for the central government, Punjab government and Election Commission of India.)
When someone says 2+2=674, an essay on mathematics is not required to prove them wrong; anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of arithmetic can see the flawed equation for what it is.
Educate yourself, lest you continue to betray your ignorance. I suggest you start with "When A Tree Shook Delhi", written by H.S. Phoolka and Manoj Mitta.
(H.S. Phoolka is a senior advocate practising in Delhi, who is also designated counsel for the central government, Punjab government and Election Commission of India.)
The above being said, if we try really, really hard, I think something positive can be taken from Roger's statement.
I was at workshop recently, and there was an interesting discussion: When, in the annals of Sikh history, have Sikhs ever gone to the perpetrators of evil and asked them for justice? Did the Sikhs go to Ahmed Shah and plead with him for justice after his forces massacred the Sikhs in the Wada Ghalughara? Did the Sikhs go and plead with Aurangzeb for justice? Did Mehtab Singh go to Zakaria Khan about Massa Rangar's atrocities, and ask for justice?....
I was at workshop recently, and there was an interesting discussion: When, in the annals of Sikh history, have Sikhs ever gone to the perpetrators of evil and asked them for justice? Did the Sikhs go to Ahmed Shah and plead with him for justice after his forces massacred the Sikhs in the Wada Ghalughara? Did the Sikhs go and plead with Aurangzeb for justice? Did Mehtab Singh go to Zakaria Khan about Massa Rangar's atrocities, and ask for justice?....
The above being said, if we try really, really hard, I think something positive can be taken from Roger's statement.
I was at workshop recently, and there was an interesting discussion: When, in the annals of Sikh history, have Sikhs ever gone to the perpetrators of evil and asked them for justice? Did the Sikhs go to Ahmed Shah and plead with him for justice after his forces massacred the Sikhs in the Wada Ghalughara? Did the Sikhs go and plead with Aurangzeb for justice? Did Mehtab Singh go to Zakaria Khan about Massa Rangar's atrocities, and ask for justice?....
I was at workshop recently, and there was an interesting discussion: When, in the annals of Sikh history, have Sikhs ever gone to the perpetrators of evil and asked them for justice? Did the Sikhs go to Ahmed Shah and plead with him for justice after his forces massacred the Sikhs in the Wada Ghalughara? Did the Sikhs go and plead with Aurangzeb for justice? Did Mehtab Singh go to Zakaria Khan about Massa Rangar's atrocities, and ask for justice?....
...Maybe it's time to put aside the victim mentality, and put aside all thought of receiving justice from the Indian state. Maybe its time we act like Sikhs, and go and take the justice we want ourselves. This is not a call to pick up an AK47 - though there have been plenty of times over the last few decades where that was justified, and there may, no doubt, be times in the future where physical force is necessary.
Rather, consider it a call to put together works exposing the perpetrators, compiling records, taking perpetrators to court (ex. ENSAAF and KPS Gill), taking care of our own (the Widow Colony), and not looking for handouts from the perpetrators etc. There are many different ways each of us can get involved.
Rather, consider it a call to put together works exposing the perpetrators, compiling records, taking perpetrators to court (ex. ENSAAF and KPS Gill), taking care of our own (the Widow Colony), and not looking for handouts from the perpetrators etc. There are many different ways each of us can get involved.
...Maybe it's time to put aside the victim mentality, and put aside all thought of receiving justice from the Indian state. Maybe its time we act like Sikhs, and go and take the justice we want ourselves. This is not a call to pick up an AK47 - though there have been plenty of times over the last few decades where that was justified, and there may, no doubt, be times in the future where physical force is necessary.
Rather, consider it a call to put together works exposing the perpetrators, compiling records, taking perpetrators to court (ex. ENSAAF and KPS Gill), taking care of our own (the Widow Colony), and not looking for handouts from the perpetrators etc. There are many different ways each of us can get involved.
Rather, consider it a call to put together works exposing the perpetrators, compiling records, taking perpetrators to court (ex. ENSAAF and KPS Gill), taking care of our own (the Widow Colony), and not looking for handouts from the perpetrators etc. There are many different ways each of us can get involved.
Roger Mangat ji, you are entitled to your opinion.
However, who do you think you are to tell us to stop whining? Were you there? Was your family murdered in front of your eyes? Did you fight with everything in you, get almost fatally wounded and then survive? Do you live daily with these memories?
My husband and son and eight other close family members achieved shaeedi that day. That's a nice way of saying that they were murdered because they were visible Sikhs.
I'll whine if I feel like it. I'll also scream and holler and yell and jump up and down, if that's what it takes. I have earned that right.
And, by the way, I am a survivor, not a victim. If I shut up before achieving justice, then I will be a victim. I am a Khalsa warrior and I will keep fighting this battle until either it is won or I am dead.
Please think again ji.
However, who do you think you are to tell us to stop whining? Were you there? Was your family murdered in front of your eyes? Did you fight with everything in you, get almost fatally wounded and then survive? Do you live daily with these memories?
My husband and son and eight other close family members achieved shaeedi that day. That's a nice way of saying that they were murdered because they were visible Sikhs.
I'll whine if I feel like it. I'll also scream and holler and yell and jump up and down, if that's what it takes. I have earned that right.
And, by the way, I am a survivor, not a victim. If I shut up before achieving justice, then I will be a victim. I am a Khalsa warrior and I will keep fighting this battle until either it is won or I am dead.
Please think again ji.
Roger Mangat ji, you are entitled to your opinion.
However, who do you think you are to tell us to stop whining? Were you there? Was your family murdered in front of your eyes? Did you fight with everything in you, get almost fatally wounded and then survive? Do you live daily with these memories?
My husband and son and eight other close family members achieved shaeedi that day. That's a nice way of saying that they were murdered because they were visible Sikhs.
I'll whine if I feel like it. I'll also scream and holler and yell and jump up and down, if that's what it takes. I have earned that right.
And, by the way, I am a survivor, not a victim. If I shut up before achieving justice, then I will be a victim. I am a Khalsa warrior and I will keep fighting this battle until either it is won or I am dead.
Please think again ji.
However, who do you think you are to tell us to stop whining? Were you there? Was your family murdered in front of your eyes? Did you fight with everything in you, get almost fatally wounded and then survive? Do you live daily with these memories?
My husband and son and eight other close family members achieved shaeedi that day. That's a nice way of saying that they were murdered because they were visible Sikhs.
I'll whine if I feel like it. I'll also scream and holler and yell and jump up and down, if that's what it takes. I have earned that right.
And, by the way, I am a survivor, not a victim. If I shut up before achieving justice, then I will be a victim. I am a Khalsa warrior and I will keep fighting this battle until either it is won or I am dead.
Please think again ji.
If you know the perpetrators,as you have indicated it would be worthwhile if you take them to courts for civil damages.The evidentiary process is less complicated in civil trials than in a criminal trial.No perpetrator will ever make a public admission of guilt or apology, for the simple reason it opens the way for unlimited litigation & most important conviction.As for your sisters in widow colonies in north well they have recieved enough ad hoc & permanent help.No body can bring the expired people,however the next best thing is get the help and move on.Donot let the grief eat you from inside,there is something to be said about forgiving and forgetting.
If you know the perpetrators,as you have indicated it would be worthwhile if you take them to courts for civil damages.The evidentiary process is less complicated in civil trials than in a criminal trial.No perpetrator will ever make a public admission of guilt or apology, for the simple reason it opens the way for unlimited litigation & most important conviction.As for your sisters in widow colonies in north well they have recieved enough ad hoc & permanent help.No body can bring the expired people,however the next best thing is get the help and move on.Donot let the grief eat you from inside,there is something to be said about forgiving and forgetting.
1984 Theories :-
1)Religious theories :---
a.When ever a new religion becomes manifest on this planet the older religions of the planet deal in this manner; a kind of bullying, Eg :-- Jews did atrocities on Jesus and betrayed Muslims . How ever if the new born kid is a bigger bully then It is the other way round. Some time it is the newer religions which are hostile to older religions like Muslims were towards Jews and Christians.
b.Religions are in intrinsically violent systems with their Gods being more like commander in chiefs and their holy text book being like war manuals
c.India was aspiring to be a Hindu nation; and any one not subscribing to this theological view point was to be subdued.
d.Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs slugged it out some thing like the Kauravs and Pandavs or in the western world like catholic and Protestants.
e.Sikhs were theologically bestowed sovereignty by the Gurus
1)Religious theories :---
a.When ever a new religion becomes manifest on this planet the older religions of the planet deal in this manner; a kind of bullying, Eg :-- Jews did atrocities on Jesus and betrayed Muslims . How ever if the new born kid is a bigger bully then It is the other way round. Some time it is the newer religions which are hostile to older religions like Muslims were towards Jews and Christians.
b.Religions are in intrinsically violent systems with their Gods being more like commander in chiefs and their holy text book being like war manuals
c.India was aspiring to be a Hindu nation; and any one not subscribing to this theological view point was to be subdued.
d.Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs slugged it out some thing like the Kauravs and Pandavs or in the western world like catholic and Protestants.
e.Sikhs were theologically bestowed sovereignty by the Gurus
1984 Theories :-
1)Religious theories :---
a.When ever a new religion becomes manifest on this planet the older religions of the planet deal in this manner; a kind of bullying, Eg :-- Jews did atrocities on Jesus and betrayed Muslims . How ever if the new born kid is a bigger bully then It is the other way round. Some time it is the newer religions which are hostile to older religions like Muslims were towards Jews and Christians.
b.Religions are in intrinsically violent systems with their Gods being more like commander in chiefs and their holy text book being like war manuals
c.India was aspiring to be a Hindu nation; and any one not subscribing to this theological view point was to be subdued.
d.Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs slugged it out some thing like the Kauravs and Pandavs or in the western world like catholic and Protestants.
e.Sikhs were theologically bestowed sovereignty by the Gurus
1)Religious theories :---
a.When ever a new religion becomes manifest on this planet the older religions of the planet deal in this manner; a kind of bullying, Eg :-- Jews did atrocities on Jesus and betrayed Muslims . How ever if the new born kid is a bigger bully then It is the other way round. Some time it is the newer religions which are hostile to older religions like Muslims were towards Jews and Christians.
b.Religions are in intrinsically violent systems with their Gods being more like commander in chiefs and their holy text book being like war manuals
c.India was aspiring to be a Hindu nation; and any one not subscribing to this theological view point was to be subdued.
d.Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs slugged it out some thing like the Kauravs and Pandavs or in the western world like catholic and Protestants.
e.Sikhs were theologically bestowed sovereignty by the Gurus
continued :--
2)Economic theory: -- Sikhs tend to have love for money and tend to live a affluent life style in a world surrounded by poverty lovers esp Muslims and Dalits. This then breeds hostilities for the rich e.g. :--some thing like the Russian and French revolution in west or the Maoist in India.
3)Throne Theory: - India is a country worthy of being a King of ; as it provides to the world powers with a Market , Brains capital , Converts and modern day human trafficking ( cryptic salves ) . Those who rules India have access to all of these. Sikhs were a competitor of this throne and so were brushed aside.
2)Economic theory: -- Sikhs tend to have love for money and tend to live a affluent life style in a world surrounded by poverty lovers esp Muslims and Dalits. This then breeds hostilities for the rich e.g. :--some thing like the Russian and French revolution in west or the Maoist in India.
3)Throne Theory: - India is a country worthy of being a King of ; as it provides to the world powers with a Market , Brains capital , Converts and modern day human trafficking ( cryptic salves ) . Those who rules India have access to all of these. Sikhs were a competitor of this throne and so were brushed aside.
continued :--
2)Economic theory: -- Sikhs tend to have love for money and tend to live a affluent life style in a world surrounded by poverty lovers esp Muslims and Dalits. This then breeds hostilities for the rich e.g. :--some thing like the Russian and French revolution in west or the Maoist in India.
3)Throne Theory: - India is a country worthy of being a King of ; as it provides to the world powers with a Market , Brains capital , Converts and modern day human trafficking ( cryptic salves ) . Those who rules India have access to all of these. Sikhs were a competitor of this throne and so were brushed aside.
2)Economic theory: -- Sikhs tend to have love for money and tend to live a affluent life style in a world surrounded by poverty lovers esp Muslims and Dalits. This then breeds hostilities for the rich e.g. :--some thing like the Russian and French revolution in west or the Maoist in India.
3)Throne Theory: - India is a country worthy of being a King of ; as it provides to the world powers with a Market , Brains capital , Converts and modern day human trafficking ( cryptic salves ) . Those who rules India have access to all of these. Sikhs were a competitor of this throne and so were brushed aside.
4)Cyclical revenges theory :-
a.On 13 Apr 1979 the Nirankaris decide to do blood letting of Sikhs. The Sikhs decided to take revenge against them and their supporters which incidentally included a lot of our Punjabi Hindu brethrens. Then another cycle of revenge was executed in summer of 1984 . The cycles came to an end when enough blood and back stabbing had flown down the Sutlej .
b.The other communities who had been at their receiving end form Sikh Regiment fighting for the British empire and then later India;
After centuries got a God given opportunity to bash the Sikhs. A lot of them ganged up against them right from Tamilian’s , Dogras , Muslims , Arya Samaji’s ,Christians , etc. It was a sweet revenge for them.
5)Racial purity and superiority theory :- The Jatt’s of Punjab are very protective toward their genome . India was turning out to be melting pot as it is now also; So this was not to their liking so they fought it out. Some thing like the Nazis or the Tamilian independence movement.
6)Divine theory :- Since Wahe gurus is the karta Purakh so he did 1984
a.On 13 Apr 1979 the Nirankaris decide to do blood letting of Sikhs. The Sikhs decided to take revenge against them and their supporters which incidentally included a lot of our Punjabi Hindu brethrens. Then another cycle of revenge was executed in summer of 1984 . The cycles came to an end when enough blood and back stabbing had flown down the Sutlej .
b.The other communities who had been at their receiving end form Sikh Regiment fighting for the British empire and then later India;
After centuries got a God given opportunity to bash the Sikhs. A lot of them ganged up against them right from Tamilian’s , Dogras , Muslims , Arya Samaji’s ,Christians , etc. It was a sweet revenge for them.
5)Racial purity and superiority theory :- The Jatt’s of Punjab are very protective toward their genome . India was turning out to be melting pot as it is now also; So this was not to their liking so they fought it out. Some thing like the Nazis or the Tamilian independence movement.
6)Divine theory :- Since Wahe gurus is the karta Purakh so he did 1984
4)Cyclical revenges theory :-
a.On 13 Apr 1979 the Nirankaris decide to do blood letting of Sikhs. The Sikhs decided to take revenge against them and their supporters which incidentally included a lot of our Punjabi Hindu brethrens. Then another cycle of revenge was executed in summer of 1984 . The cycles came to an end when enough blood and back stabbing had flown down the Sutlej .
b.The other communities who had been at their receiving end form Sikh Regiment fighting for the British empire and then later India;
After centuries got a God given opportunity to bash the Sikhs. A lot of them ganged up against them right from Tamilian’s , Dogras , Muslims , Arya Samaji’s ,Christians , etc. It was a sweet revenge for them.
5)Racial purity and superiority theory :- The Jatt’s of Punjab are very protective toward their genome . India was turning out to be melting pot as it is now also; So this was not to their liking so they fought it out. Some thing like the Nazis or the Tamilian independence movement.
6)Divine theory :- Since Wahe gurus is the karta Purakh so he did 1984
a.On 13 Apr 1979 the Nirankaris decide to do blood letting of Sikhs. The Sikhs decided to take revenge against them and their supporters which incidentally included a lot of our Punjabi Hindu brethrens. Then another cycle of revenge was executed in summer of 1984 . The cycles came to an end when enough blood and back stabbing had flown down the Sutlej .
b.The other communities who had been at their receiving end form Sikh Regiment fighting for the British empire and then later India;
After centuries got a God given opportunity to bash the Sikhs. A lot of them ganged up against them right from Tamilian’s , Dogras , Muslims , Arya Samaji’s ,Christians , etc. It was a sweet revenge for them.
5)Racial purity and superiority theory :- The Jatt’s of Punjab are very protective toward their genome . India was turning out to be melting pot as it is now also; So this was not to their liking so they fought it out. Some thing like the Nazis or the Tamilian independence movement.
6)Divine theory :- Since Wahe gurus is the karta Purakh so he did 1984
7 ) Afghan theory :- People of Punjab are like the wild west or afghanis and need military subjugation to be ruled.
7 ) Afghan theory :- People of Punjab are like the wild west or afghanis and need military subjugation to be ruled.
Harinder,
Most things you say are quite idiotic and I tend to ignore 99.9% of any comment made by you.
Most of your 'theories' are one-sentence summations/distortions that have about the same intrinsic value as fingerpainting.
But really?
poverty lovers esp Muslims and Dalits
Muslims and Dalits are poverty lovers?
even this one takes the cake
now back to ignoring you
Most things you say are quite idiotic and I tend to ignore 99.9% of any comment made by you.
Most of your 'theories' are one-sentence summations/distortions that have about the same intrinsic value as fingerpainting.
But really?
poverty lovers esp Muslims and Dalits
Muslims and Dalits are poverty lovers?
even this one takes the cake
now back to ignoring you
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Comments by IntenseDebate
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Stop whinning,about 150 people have been prosecuted and punished.The punishments may not be as severe as some had expected,but the wheels of justice have spun & the courts have worked.So the sikhs should stop crying like babies & start looking at themselves,& try to figure3 out who is misleading them now.
Stop whinning,about 150 people have been prosecuted and punished.The punishments may not be as severe as some had expected,but the wheels of justice have spun & the courts have worked.So the sikhs should stop crying like babies & start looking at themselves,& try to figure3 out who is misleading them now.
P.Singh – you asked earlier. My vote is definitely a troll.
Wow – I could write an essay on how off-the-mark you are in your understanding. But I won't. I think anyone who has done even a half-ass study of the 1984 Delhi massacre of the Sikhs, will have no problems in placing a value to your comment above.
When someone says 2+2=674, an essay on mathematics is not required to prove them wrong; anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of arithmetic can see the flawed equation for what it is.
Educate yourself, lest you continue to betray your ignorance. I suggest you start with "When A Tree Shook Delhi", written by H.S. Phoolka and Manoj Mitta.
(H.S. Phoolka is a senior advocate practising in Delhi, who is also designated counsel for the central government, Punjab government and Election Commission of India.)
The above being said, if we try really, really hard, I think something positive can be taken from Roger's statement.
I was at workshop recently, and there was an interesting discussion: When, in the annals of Sikh history, have Sikhs ever gone to the perpetrators of evil and asked them for justice? Did the Sikhs go to Ahmed Shah and plead with him for justice after his forces massacred the Sikhs in the Wada Ghalughara? Did the Sikhs go and plead with Aurangzeb for justice? Did Mehtab Singh go to Zakaria Khan about Massa Rangar's atrocities, and ask for justice?….
…Maybe it's time to put aside the victim mentality, and put aside all thought of receiving justice from the Indian state. Maybe its time we act like Sikhs, and go and take the justice we want ourselves. This is not a call to pick up an AK47 – though there have been plenty of times over the last few decades where that was justified, and there may, no doubt, be times in the future where physical force is necessary.
Rather, consider it a call to put together works exposing the perpetrators, compiling records, taking perpetrators to court (ex. ENSAAF and KPS Gill), taking care of our own (the Widow Colony), and not looking for handouts from the perpetrators etc. There are many different ways each of us can get involved.
P.Singh – you asked earlier. My vote is definitely a troll.
Wow – I could write an essay on how off-the-mark you are in your understanding. But I won't. I think anyone who has done even a half-ass study of the 1984 Delhi massacre of the Sikhs, will have no problems in placing a value to your comment above.
When someone says 2+2=674, an essay on mathematics is not required to prove them wrong; anyone with even a rudimentary knowledge of arithmetic can see the flawed equation for what it is.
Educate yourself, lest you continue to betray your ignorance. I suggest you start with "When A Tree Shook Delhi", written by H.S. Phoolka and Manoj Mitta.
(H.S. Phoolka is a senior advocate practising in Delhi, who is also designated counsel for the central government, Punjab government and Election Commission of India.)
The above being said, if we try really, really hard, I think something positive can be taken from Roger's statement.
I was at workshop recently, and there was an interesting discussion: When, in the annals of Sikh history, have Sikhs ever gone to the perpetrators of evil and asked them for justice? Did the Sikhs go to Ahmed Shah and plead with him for justice after his forces massacred the Sikhs in the Wada Ghalughara? Did the Sikhs go and plead with Aurangzeb for justice? Did Mehtab Singh go to Zakaria Khan about Massa Rangar's atrocities, and ask for justice?….
…Maybe it's time to put aside the victim mentality, and put aside all thought of receiving justice from the Indian state. Maybe its time we act like Sikhs, and go and take the justice we want ourselves. This is not a call to pick up an AK47 – though there have been plenty of times over the last few decades where that was justified, and there may, no doubt, be times in the future where physical force is necessary.
Rather, consider it a call to put together works exposing the perpetrators, compiling records, taking perpetrators to court (ex. ENSAAF and KPS Gill), taking care of our own (the Widow Colony), and not looking for handouts from the perpetrators etc. There are many different ways each of us can get involved.
Roger Mangat ji, you are entitled to your opinion.
However, who do you think you are to tell us to stop whining? Were you there? Was your family murdered in front of your eyes? Did you fight with everything in you, get almost fatally wounded and then survive? Do you live daily with these memories?
My husband and son and eight other close family members achieved shaeedi that day. That's a nice way of saying that they were murdered because they were visible Sikhs.
I'll whine if I feel like it. I'll also scream and holler and yell and jump up and down, if that's what it takes. I have earned that right.
And, by the way, I am a survivor, not a victim. If I shut up before achieving justice, then I will be a victim. I am a Khalsa warrior and I will keep fighting this battle until either it is won or I am dead.
Please think again ji.
Roger Mangat ji, you are entitled to your opinion.
However, who do you think you are to tell us to stop whining? Were you there? Was your family murdered in front of your eyes? Did you fight with everything in you, get almost fatally wounded and then survive? Do you live daily with these memories?
My husband and son and eight other close family members achieved shaeedi that day. That's a nice way of saying that they were murdered because they were visible Sikhs.
I'll whine if I feel like it. I'll also scream and holler and yell and jump up and down, if that's what it takes. I have earned that right.
And, by the way, I am a survivor, not a victim. If I shut up before achieving justice, then I will be a victim. I am a Khalsa warrior and I will keep fighting this battle until either it is won or I am dead.
Please think again ji.
If you know the perpetrators,as you have indicated it would be worthwhile if you take them to courts for civil damages.The evidentiary process is less complicated in civil trials than in a criminal trial.No perpetrator will ever make a public admission of guilt or apology, for the simple reason it opens the way for unlimited litigation & most important conviction.As for your sisters in widow colonies in north well they have recieved enough ad hoc & permanent help.No body can bring the expired people,however the next best thing is get the help and move on.Donot let the grief eat you from inside,there is something to be said about forgiving and forgetting.
If you know the perpetrators,as you have indicated it would be worthwhile if you take them to courts for civil damages.The evidentiary process is less complicated in civil trials than in a criminal trial.No perpetrator will ever make a public admission of guilt or apology, for the simple reason it opens the way for unlimited litigation & most important conviction.As for your sisters in widow colonies in north well they have recieved enough ad hoc & permanent help.No body can bring the expired people,however the next best thing is get the help and move on.Donot let the grief eat you from inside,there is something to be said about forgiving and forgetting.
Roger, you got 3 examples in the article of people that were 'known perpetrators' that were acquitted.
Roger, you got 3 examples in the article of people that were 'known perpetrators' that were acquitted.
1984 Theories :-
1)Religious theories :—
a.When ever a new religion becomes manifest on this planet the older religions of the planet deal in this manner; a kind of bullying, Eg :– Jews did atrocities on Jesus and betrayed Muslims . How ever if the new born kid is a bigger bully then It is the other way round. Some time it is the newer religions which are hostile to older religions like Muslims were towards Jews and Christians.
b.Religions are in intrinsically violent systems with their Gods being more like commander in chiefs and their holy text book being like war manuals
c.India was aspiring to be a Hindu nation; and any one not subscribing to this theological view point was to be subdued.
d.Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs slugged it out some thing like the Kauravs and Pandavs or in the western world like catholic and Protestants.
e.Sikhs were theologically bestowed sovereignty by the Gurus
continued :–
2)Economic theory: — Sikhs tend to have love for money and tend to live a affluent life style in a world surrounded by poverty lovers esp Muslims and Dalits. This then breeds hostilities for the rich e.g. :–some thing like the Russian and French revolution in west or the Maoist in India.
3)Throne Theory: – India is a country worthy of being a King of ; as it provides to the world powers with a Market , Brains capital , Converts and modern day human trafficking ( cryptic salves ) . Those who rules India have access to all of these. Sikhs were a competitor of this throne and so were brushed aside.
4)Cyclical revenges theory :-
a.On 13 Apr 1979 the Nirankaris decide to do blood letting of Sikhs. The Sikhs decided to take revenge against them and their supporters which incidentally included a lot of our Punjabi Hindu brethrens. Then another cycle of revenge was executed in summer of 1984 . The cycles came to an end when enough blood and back stabbing had flown down the Sutlej .
b.The other communities who had been at their receiving end form Sikh Regiment fighting for the British empire and then later India;
After centuries got a God given opportunity to bash the Sikhs. A lot of them ganged up against them right from Tamilian’s , Dogras , Muslims , Arya Samaji’s ,Christians , etc. It was a sweet revenge for them.
5)Racial purity and superiority theory :- The Jatt’s of Punjab are very protective toward their genome . India was turning out to be melting pot as it is now also; So this was not to their liking so they fought it out. Some thing like the Nazis or the Tamilian independence movement.
6)Divine theory :- Since Wahe gurus is the karta Purakh so he did 1984
7 ) Afghan theory :- People of Punjab are like the wild west or afghanis and need military subjugation to be ruled.
1984 Theories :-
1)Religious theories :—
a.When ever a new religion becomes manifest on this planet the older religions of the planet deal in this manner; a kind of bullying, Eg :– Jews did atrocities on Jesus and betrayed Muslims . How ever if the new born kid is a bigger bully then It is the other way round. Some time it is the newer religions which are hostile to older religions like Muslims were towards Jews and Christians.
b.Religions are in intrinsically violent systems with their Gods being more like commander in chiefs and their holy text book being like war manuals
c.India was aspiring to be a Hindu nation; and any one not subscribing to this theological view point was to be subdued.
d.Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs slugged it out some thing like the Kauravs and Pandavs or in the western world like catholic and Protestants.
e.Sikhs were theologically bestowed sovereignty by the Gurus
continued :–
2)Economic theory: — Sikhs tend to have love for money and tend to live a affluent life style in a world surrounded by poverty lovers esp Muslims and Dalits. This then breeds hostilities for the rich e.g. :–some thing like the Russian and French revolution in west or the Maoist in India.
3)Throne Theory: – India is a country worthy of being a King of ; as it provides to the world powers with a Market , Brains capital , Converts and modern day human trafficking ( cryptic salves ) . Those who rules India have access to all of these. Sikhs were a competitor of this throne and so were brushed aside.
4)Cyclical revenges theory :-
a.On 13 Apr 1979 the Nirankaris decide to do blood letting of Sikhs. The Sikhs decided to take revenge against them and their supporters which incidentally included a lot of our Punjabi Hindu brethrens. Then another cycle of revenge was executed in summer of 1984 . The cycles came to an end when enough blood and back stabbing had flown down the Sutlej .
b.The other communities who had been at their receiving end form Sikh Regiment fighting for the British empire and then later India;
After centuries got a God given opportunity to bash the Sikhs. A lot of them ganged up against them right from Tamilian’s , Dogras , Muslims , Arya Samaji’s ,Christians , etc. It was a sweet revenge for them.
5)Racial purity and superiority theory :- The Jatt’s of Punjab are very protective toward their genome . India was turning out to be melting pot as it is now also; So this was not to their liking so they fought it out. Some thing like the Nazis or the Tamilian independence movement.
6)Divine theory :- Since Wahe gurus is the karta Purakh so he did 1984
7 ) Afghan theory :- People of Punjab are like the wild west or afghanis and need military subjugation to be ruled.
Harinder,
Most things you say are quite idiotic and I tend to ignore 99.9% of any comment made by you.
Most of your 'theories' are one-sentence summations/distortions that have about the same intrinsic value as fingerpainting.
But really?
poverty lovers esp Muslims and Dalits
Muslims and Dalits are poverty lovers?
even this one takes the cake
now back to ignoring you
Harinder,
Most things you say are quite idiotic and I tend to ignore 99.9% of any comment made by you.
Most of your 'theories' are one-sentence summations/distortions that have about the same intrinsic value as fingerpainting.
But really?
poverty lovers esp Muslims and Dalits
Muslims and Dalits are poverty lovers?
even this one takes the cake
now back to ignoring you
Please write a superior theory to contradict my view points; Single line dissmisal/rebukes are difficult to differentiate from arrogance.
Please write a superior theory to contradict my view points; Single line dissmisal/rebukes are difficult to differentiate from arrogance.
Although i donot know Mewa Singh,i do agree that 99.9% of things said by above mentioned writer are idiotic.People who have not taken part or have vested interest make these kind of accusations , regarding operation blue star.People who were involved in it from the begining to the end can tell you it was nice little,police action conducted succsesfully with minimum of collateral damage.Blue star made it clear that no one is above the law,and a duly/legally elected govt. can & will do all in its power to restore law & order.It was one of the finest hours of the Indian army.
Although i donot know Mewa Singh,i do agree that 99.9% of things said by above mentioned writer are idiotic.People who have not taken part or have vested interest make these kind of accusations , regarding operation blue star.People who were involved in it from the begining to the end can tell you it was nice little,police action conducted succsesfully with minimum of collateral damage.Blue star made it clear that no one is above the law,and a duly/legally elected govt. can & will do all in its power to restore law & order.It was one of the finest hours of the Indian army.
None of you still have a theory to analyse and explain the events from 1979-90 in Punjab .
None of you still have a theory to analyse and explain the events from 1979-90 in Punjab .
Harinder let me put it in a simple way,& this comes from the top,as i was employed by Punjab Police,and was posted in Chdg head qtrs.After the wiping out the naxlite movement in punjab in early 1970s,the remaining naxalites went underground,waiting for another chance.It came in the form of the emergency declared by Mrs. Gandhi,Akali dal took to protests & demonstrations against Mrs Gandhi with their newfound allies in naxalites.After the revocation of emergency,and the election the Akali Dal came to power in punjab & shared power with their allies in delhi.The naxalite influenced faction led by Tohra wanted drastic changes in the administrative structure in punjab.This is the gist of the problem,at that time.Rest i will post it after you have read this & still want to know more coz there are things/events that many people will not like or appereciate.
Harinder let me put it in a simple way,& this comes from the top,as i was employed by Punjab Police,and was posted in Chdg head qtrs.After the wiping out the naxlite movement in punjab in early 1970s,the remaining naxalites went underground,waiting for another chance.It came in the form of the emergency declared by Mrs. Gandhi,Akali dal took to protests & demonstrations against Mrs Gandhi with their newfound allies in naxalites.After the revocation of emergency,and the election the Akali Dal came to power in punjab & shared power with their allies in delhi.The naxalite influenced faction led by Tohra wanted drastic changes in the administrative structure in punjab.This is the gist of the problem,at that time.Rest i will post it after you have read this & still want to know more coz there are things/events that many people will not like or appereciate.
why is it that roger mangat (whoeva he is ) is taking out so much time in an attempt to undermine the values of the sikh religion. I feel this degrades the quality of discussion on the Langar Hall.
We should be more involved in progressing the sikh religion with a keen eye and wholesome understanding of our past. Arguing with such arrogant and ignorant snubs should not be what TLH is about….
I agree with P singh
why is it that roger mangat (whoeva he is ) is taking out so much time in an attempt to undermine the values of the sikh religion. I feel this degrades the quality of discussion on the Langar Hall.
We should be more involved in progressing the sikh religion with a keen eye and wholesome understanding of our past. Arguing with such arrogant and ignorant snubs should not be what TLH is about….
I agree with P singh
Mangat the "Naxalite theory" is already mentioned by me under the "Economic theory ".
Sikhs love for too much money for 7 generations atttitude have got them into trouble both in 47 and 84.
If naxalites were the problem why were sikhs targetted in Delhi riots ?
Mangat the "Naxalite theory" is already mentioned by me under the "Economic theory ".
Sikhs love for too much money for 7 generations atttitude have got them into trouble both in 47 and 84.
If naxalites were the problem why were sikhs targetted in Delhi riots ?
P Singh made an interesting observation about Sikhs seeking justice from the perpetrators of genocide. The situation for Sikhs in India is the same as it for the Jews in Germany. Even now, there is a widespread feeling of jealousy and animosity amongst the Hindu majority against the Sikhs.
The battle for the preservation and progress of Sikhi will be fought outside India. By those living in North America, Europe and Australia & New Zealand. Struggle has been synonymous with Sikhi and struggle we will, thats the promise we all have to keep.
P Singh made an interesting observation about Sikhs seeking justice from the perpetrators of genocide. The situation for Sikhs in India is the same as it for the Jews in Germany. Even now, there is a widespread feeling of jealousy and animosity amongst the Hindu majority against the Sikhs.
The battle for the preservation and progress of Sikhi will be fought outside India. By those living in North America, Europe and Australia & New Zealand. Struggle has been synonymous with Sikhi and struggle we will, thats the promise we all have to keep.
Jews and Sikhs comparison is it appropriate ?"
Casulities of massacre :———– 5,752,400 Jews vs 5000-SIKHS
Nobel prize won :———————————–165 vs 01
Realtion ship with murderers :—————-Jews killed Jesus vs SIkhs saved Indias spirituality
Harinder, you make some of the most inane, barely relevant comments. It is getting difficult to wade through all of your numerous nonsense posts, and get to the relevant discussion.
Jews and Sikhs comparison is it appropriate ?"
Casulities of massacre :———– 5,752,400 Jews vs 5000-SIKHS
Nobel prize won :———————————–165 vs 01
Realtion ship with murderers :—————-Jews killed Jesus vs SIkhs saved Indias spirituality
Harinder, you make some of the most inane, barely relevant comments. It is getting difficult to wade through all of your numerous nonsense posts, and get to the relevant discussion.
Roger Mangat – I believe you might be suffering from a condition called Stockholm Syndrome. If you dont know what that means I suggest you look it up but here is a brief explanation. My suggest would be to seek professional help.
What is Stockholm Syndrome? Captives begin to identify with their captors initially as a defensive mechanism, out of fear of violence. Small acts of kindness by the captor are magnified, since finding perspective in a hostage situation is by definition impossible. Rescue attempts are also seen as a threat, since it's likely the captive would be injured during such attempts.
It's important to note that these symptoms occur under tremendous emotional and often physical duress. The behavior is considered a common survival strategy for victims of interpersonal abuse, and has been observed in battered spouses, abused children, prisoners of war, and concentration camp survivors.
Roger Mangat – I believe you might be suffering from a condition called Stockholm Syndrome. If you dont know what that means I suggest you look it up but here is a brief explanation. My suggest would be to seek professional help.
What is Stockholm Syndrome? Captives begin to identify with their captors initially as a defensive mechanism, out of fear of violence. Small acts of kindness by the captor are magnified, since finding perspective in a hostage situation is by definition impossible. Rescue attempts are also seen as a threat, since it's likely the captive would be injured during such attempts.
It's important to note that these symptoms occur under tremendous emotional and often physical duress. The behavior is considered a common survival strategy for victims of interpersonal abuse, and has been observed in battered spouses, abused children, prisoners of war, and concentration camp survivors.
Here is what Judith Harman, MD, Clinical Professor of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School has to say on the subject of forgetting:
"In order to escape accountability for their crimes, perpetrators will do everything in their power to promote forgetting.
Secrecy and silence are the perpetrators first line of defense, but if secrecy fails, then the prepetrators will aggressively attack the credibility of the victim.
If the victim cannot be silenced absolutely, the prepetrator will try to make sure that no one listens, or offers aid.
After every atrocity one can expect to hear the same apologies: it never happened; the victim is deluded; the victim lies; the victim bought this upon himself; the victim exaggerates, and in any case it is time to forget the past and move on………."
The strategies suggested by Roger Mangat and Harinder are well documented and have been used time and time again to silence the pursuit of justice and the voice of the suffering. WE AS SIKHS WILL NEVER FORGET!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Roger, I believe your argument to blame the naxalities for the events leading up to 1984 is a feeble attempt at the 'divide and conquer' strategy.
We all know that the Naxalites are a grave threat to India's existence and Indian authorities including the police and army have been unable to silence them so now you are involved in a pathetic attempt to discredit them as well as stir up Sikh emotions against them. Again this strategy have been played more than once by your kind – witness the Pakistani IS agency who are constantly being blamed for Punjab's problems. You people really need to come up with something new as this sort of thing only works in poor India where the illiteracy rate is sky high. People in the west have greater critical thinking skills and we see through you and your phoney arguments.
Here is what Judith Harman, MD, Clinical Professor of Psychiatry, Harvard Medical School has to say on the subject of forgetting:
"In order to escape accountability for their crimes, perpetrators will do everything in their power to promote forgetting.
Secrecy and silence are the perpetrators first line of defense, but if secrecy fails, then the prepetrators will aggressively attack the credibility of the victim.
If the victim cannot be silenced absolutely, the prepetrator will try to make sure that no one listens, or offers aid.
After every atrocity one can expect to hear the same apologies: it never happened; the victim is deluded; the victim lies; the victim bought this upon himself; the victim exaggerates, and in any case it is time to forget the past and move on………."
The strategies suggested by Roger Mangat and Harinder are well documented and have been used time and time again to silence the pursuit of justice and the voice of the suffering. WE AS SIKHS WILL NEVER FORGET!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Roger, I believe your argument to blame the naxalities for the events leading up to 1984 is a feeble attempt at the 'divide and conquer' strategy.
We all know that the Naxalites are a grave threat to India's existence and Indian authorities including the police and army have been unable to silence them so now you are involved in a pathetic attempt to discredit them as well as stir up Sikh emotions against them. Again this strategy have been played more than once by your kind – witness the Pakistani IS agency who are constantly being blamed for Punjab's problems. You people really need to come up with something new as this sort of thing only works in poor India where the illiteracy rate is sky high. People in the west have greater critical thinking skills and we see through you and your phoney arguments.
Three more hypothesis/theories to explain the 1979-90 events
1) Justice theory :- Sikhs have a obsession with justice. When we see that life is not just.
If it was just ; then how do explain annihilation of so many God created species like animals ,plants and even some human races in modern time. It is our different interprtetion of meaning of justice that we feel the pain of 47 and 84.
2 ) Chaos theory :- Some time small events can get magnified by a a thing " BUTTERFLY EFFECT "
The 1979 killing by NIrankaris of Sikhs got int the Lorenz attractor and acted like the proverbial butterfly flap.
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory.
3) Darwins theory :– It talks of survival of fittest . Both in 47 and in 84 Sikhs were found wanting in survival statergies.
Three more hypothesis/theories to explain the 1979-90 events
1) Justice theory :- Sikhs have a obsession with justice. When we see that life is not just.
If it was just ; then how do explain annihilation of so many God created species like animals ,plants and even some human races in modern time. It is our different interprtetion of meaning of justice that we feel the pain of 47 and 84.
2 ) Chaos theory :- Some time small events can get magnified by a a thing " BUTTERFLY EFFECT "
The 1979 killing by NIrankaris of Sikhs got int the Lorenz attractor and acted like the proverbial butterfly flap.
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory.
3) Darwins theory :– It talks of survival of fittest . Both in 47 and in 84 Sikhs were found wanting in survival statergies.
I think this topic should be named we still talk, because we sure as hell dont fight.. Our community has sold out for prestige, status and money. We have become weak as a people. Our courage and strength have left us. If 1984 ever happened again I dont think we as a people would even make it.
I mean look at us today. When someone touches our patka/turban or makes fun of us, we start crying and act weak. We hold meeting to talk about what happened, and then run to the police. We are lions and we should act as such in the face of adversity, not run away with our tails between our legs.
When I was growing up I rembember times where If somebody tried to disrespect me because of my religion or try to touch my turban, the first thing I would do was to stair them dead in there eyes and wait for them to make a move, so I could defend myself. I gained respect of my peers in high school because they knew that I would stand up and fight. I fought in school because I had to and dont regret it till this day because it is what was needed at times.
How are we supposed to stand up aganist oppressions and evil If we cant even defend ourselves when 1 person tries to touch our pataks/turbans. Nobody fights today. We just think we do. Im not saying fighting solves all problems but when its needed we shouldnt run from it.
The last real lions, warriors gave there lives defending sikhi and amritsar during operation bluestar and the times before.
I think this topic should be named we still talk, because we sure as hell dont fight.. Our community has sold out for prestige, status and money. We have become weak as a people. Our courage and strength have left us. If 1984 ever happened again I dont think we as a people would even make it.
I mean look at us today. When someone touches our patka/turban or makes fun of us, we start crying and act weak. We hold meeting to talk about what happened, and then run to the police. We are lions and we should act as such in the face of adversity, not run away with our tails between our legs.
When I was growing up I rembember times where If somebody tried to disrespect me because of my religion or try to touch my turban, the first thing I would do was to stair them dead in there eyes and wait for them to make a move, so I could defend myself. I gained respect of my peers in high school because they knew that I would stand up and fight. I fought in school because I had to and dont regret it till this day because it is what was needed at times.
How are we supposed to stand up aganist oppressions and evil If we cant even defend ourselves when 1 person tries to touch our pataks/turbans. Nobody fights today. We just think we do. Im not saying fighting solves all problems but when its needed we shouldnt run from it.
The last real lions, warriors gave there lives defending sikhi and amritsar during operation bluestar and the times before.
Amit their is lot of life beyond wars.
If you want to head a empire then u need war other wise life is simple and easy.
Whom shall we call bad,
If none exist without the One
Who is in all?
GGS, Farid, 1381:17
Amit their is lot of life beyond wars.
If you want to head a empire then u need war other wise life is simple and easy.
Whom shall we call bad,
If none exist without the One
Who is in all?
GGS, Farid, 1381:17