Sikhs and Dera SachKhand – Vienna and Jalandhar
As suggested by our readers (pagh salute: ambi and an indian Sikh), I am posting on the tragedy in Vienna. The facts are still coming in, so we have little perspective on what exactly occurred.
This much is known. In the Austrian capital of Vienna, six Sikh men carrying various weapons and a handgun entered a Dera [Some media are calling this a ‘Sikh temple’ or a ‘gurdwara’, but it seems to be a dera attached to the Sach Khand group]. The men proceeded to go towards the ‘preachers’ of the Dera and in the melee 16 people have been reported injured, including 6 seriously – two names have been reported amongst the injured – Niranjan Das and Sant Rama Nand – and the other 4 were the attackers (there are rumors that Sant Rama Nand may have been killed, but this has not yet been confirmed. Sant Rama Nand is one of the highest leaders of the SachaKhand Dera).
Some of the media is attempting to frame the dispute in terms of caste, asserting that the Dera is set up to honor Bhagat Ravi Das, whose own Bani can be found in the Guru Granth Sahib. Other reports for a cause have provided the following:
[the attackers] accused one or both of the preachers of being disrespectful of the Holy Book [Sri Guru Granth Sahib]. Indian news reports said the attackers were incensed that one of the preachers was given a ceremonial shawl considered a high Sikh honor. [link]
Still some of the local press has provided the following reason:
It was assumed by local media that the conflict between the temples like competing for worshipers might be the reason of this shooting incident. [link]
The story does not end there.
Seemingly sparked by the incident in Vienna, violence soon broke out in Jalandhar in Punjab.
As soon the news of firing on the Sant and his followers reached Jalandhar, hundreds of people belonging to dalit community came out of their houses and started pelting stones on the buses and other vehicles plying on Jalandhar-Nakodar, Jalandhar-Phagwara road. The mob set a truck on fire in Bootan Mandi and smashed the window panes of more one dozen buses. The mob blocked the traffic nearly on all roads leading to other cities and towns.
The protestors gave a call of Punjab Bandh on Monday and threatened that Bharat Bandh call would be given in case the assailants were not nabbed with in a day or two. Fearing damage to the petroleum out lets the pump owners closed their out lets. The police is facing hard times to control the situation. The whole city has been converted in to a police cantonment to avoid any type of untoward incident. The infuriated mob declined to lift dharna in Bootan Mandi chowk. [link]
A curfew has been declared in Jalandhar by the Punjab Government. This is not the first time there has been caste-related violence in Doaba.
I have checked Twitter as of 3:41pm PST and no eye-witnesses have added anything to the story. I have also checked some of the foreign presses and there is no extra information there.
So here I begin a reflection. Most posts will come to condemn the actions by these men. I agree with the sentiment. I don’t want to get too far ahead of myself, but as a person who has tried to actively engage with members of our community that are part of the Ravi Das Sabha in Roseville, Caruthers, and Pittsburgh, it is absolutely necessary for the greater Sikh community to make amends and move beyond the caste-conscious that continues to divide us as a community and as a Qaum. I have personally participated in the Nagar Kirtans and various functions at these Guru Ghars. Until we begin to heal these fractions and realize that caste is only a figment of our imagination that we have the power to let go, we will continued to be divided on the very basis that our Sikh Gurus initiated a revolution. Each individual that calls themselves a Sikh of the Guru needs to re-evaluate our own outlooks, whether it be in terms of friends, associates, marriage partners, or even the seemingly small (but actually malignant) jokes people tell.
Instead of knee-jerk accusations and knee-jerk counter-accusations, I hope that we can take a moment to reflect. I hope here in The Langar Hall, where the crusade against caste has always played a prominent role, I hope we can engage in introspection and begin to develop real solutions.
For the most recent updates, see this post.
152 Responses to “Sikhs and Dera SachKhand – Vienna and Jalandhar”
Jeet Singh Khalsa, I agree with you. I think it is only a matter of time before these kinds of incidences happen in the UK. My only surprise is that it has not happened yet. There will be murders, possibly even mass murders occuring inside Gurudwarey in the UK. That is why I am interested to know if any of the perpetrators in Vienna are British citizens. I know that there are many, many people in the UK who set themselves up as 'cleansers' of the Sikh faith and enact this kind of thing rhetorically and practically.
this is 2 the admin of langar hall, why didnt u delete pushpinder and chamaar before and pushpinder comment has not been deleted this comments is name calling and discrimination …. these sort of comments should be deleted based on the rules on ur website of corse people like me will react when people that are narrow minded and agree with killing sum1 in a temple , which is very disgusting
Although many Hindus subscribe to the belief that one is born into a certain caste this belief is not supported by their scriptures. The caste system in India has degenerated into a system falsely recognizing men born in Brahmin families as Brahmins, even though they don’t exhibit the qualities of Brahmins. This has caused so many problems.
“Brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are distinguished by the qualities born of their own natures in accordance with the material modes, O chastiser of the enemy.
“Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness–these are the natural qualities by which the brahmanas work.
“Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the natural qualities of work for the ksatriyas.
“Farming, cow protection and business are the natural work for the vaisyas, and for the sudras there is labor and service to others.
Read more at: http://krishna.org/the-indian-caste-system/
In the Vaishnava (Hare Krishna) path, there is no caste whatsoever. You have so many white, chinese, black people as devotees, some even are Gurus. The qualification of a guru is that he must have Shuddha Bhakti (pure love for Sri Hari, God). I.e the guru must be a pure Bhakta(devotee) and then he can give bhakti (devotion) to others.
Haribol
My first thoughts on this are quite passionate and filled with disgust, anger and pain.
So I’ll allow time to compose myself before speaking on it most directly, and how this links into what I see and hear in the Sikh community in Britain, where this kind of violence has been brewing for a long time now.
I will just say this though.
This is major news across Europe and people who have never heard of, or hardly knew anything about Sikhs before have been listening to their radio, reading their newspaper and watching TV news over this incident. And this could severely damage the campaign to protect the right to wear kirpan in Europe.
One last thing .. I am only surprised it happened in Austria. I have been expecting murderous violence inside a Gurudwara to occur in England for the last few years.
To: real follower of Guru RaviDASS
Yes i think your correct, I didn't like that people are saying it is fine to have attacked those sants. Devotees of God should surrender to God, and let him deal with things. There are some instances where violence can be advocated, but those are rare.
Bhagavan Sri Hari is given a name, Bhakta Vatsala (Kind to his surrendered devotees). So if one is surrendered, god will look after and protect the devotee.
Hare Krishna
and no we dont want fighting in the temples , u just making the people worse thats not the solution and no thats no what the gurus have tought us , only narrow minded poeple who do killing and blive its god sent , which is not true in any matter , no god agrees with that and told u to do that, its all man made .. it is very sicking that people think it ok to attack any 1 regardless its a saint or not , in a place of god ….. its a very big shame we have very disdrubed people like that that go around attacking people … really people need to be educated about their own religion b4 they harm people that just wana people in god.
I have been reading some of the 'usual suspects' message boards, and whilst there is a lot of outrage, there are also equal numbers of British Sikhs apologising for this violence. Just checked google news and it is still on the front page, very high profile.
Guru Sant Rama Nand slain in Vienna sikh temple clash
Article from: Herald Sun
AFP
May 26, 2009 12:00am
AN Indian guru died yesterday and 30 people were injured after a knife and gun clash between rival Sikh communities at a temple in Vienna.
A group of men pulled out the weapons as two visiting gurus preached at the temple, where about 200 people had gathered.
Two of the wounded attackers are in a critical condition after being shot in the head, police said.
Guru Sant Rama Nand, 56, died of his wounds in hospital yesterday. The second guru, Sant Niranjan Dass, 66, was in a stable condition.
"Six people did not agree" with the sermon, police spokesman Michael Takacs said. "One drew a firearm, the others knives. The six people were overpowered by members of the community and seriously injured."
Some victims, all men, were shot in the stomach and legs. The injured were taken away aboard three helicopters to five hospitals for treatment.
"I was outside when it happened and I only heard the shots," a 21-year-old witness said. "My uncle was hit by a knife on his left side, another man in the eye."
A total of 11 people were seriously injured in Sunday's attack, a rescue services spokesman said.
Two other attackers were seriously hurt, while the injuries of the remaining two attackers were less serious; they were in police custody.
Officers had recovered at least three spent cartridges inside the temple and sealed off the surrounding area.
The violence resulted from a dispute between different temples in the Austrian capital, said Kumar Balvinder, vice-president of the temple where the attack occurred.
The temple, which opened in 2005, has protested against the caste system still popular among some Sikhs and has been accused of not strictly following Sikh traditions.
Mr Balvinder said the head of another temple in Vienna had warned violence could break out over the gurus' visit. He said the information had been passed on to police.
The head of the other temple said yesterday: "We have nothing to do with that."
In India, the media said a curfew had been imposed in parts of the Sikh-majority city of Jalandhar, in the northern state of Punjab, after violence broke out, apparently in response to the Vienna incident.
Rioters were reported to have pelted buses with stones and to have set a bus, truck and shops ablaze. No one was reported injured.
WARNING TO ALL:
I understand emotiosn are high. However, THE LANGAR HALL is not a place for hatred or profanity. Such comments will be deleted, as well as those written in all caps. This is not a ‘message board’, but rather a ‘discussion forum.’ Admin Singh
all the killings fighting and arguments for what?on the name of god.i sometime wish that there was no GOD.if there is GOD he must weeping looking at things people are perpetrating on his name.
It wil be interesting to see the names and origin of the perpetrators. By all accounts they were all apprehended by the sangat and some of them are in a serious condition in hospital.
Either way they failed to escape, and we will know who they are and where they come from. As a British Sikh I would be interested to know if any of them are from England.
watch my words.
unfortunately this sort of violence is going to take place in Gurudwaras in United Kingdom soon.
sarbhat da bhala kyon nai mangdey assi
Jeet Singh Khalsa, I agree with you. I think it is only a matter of time before these kinds of incidences happen in the UK. My only surprise is that it has not happened yet. There will be murders, possibly even mass murders occuring inside Gurudwarey in the UK. That is why I am interested to know if any of the perpetrators in Vienna are British citizens. I know that there are many, many people in the UK who set themselves up as ‘cleansers’ of the Sikh faith and enact this kind of thing rhetorically and practically.
this is 2 the admin of langar hall, why didnt u delete pushpinder and chamaar before and pushpinder comment has not been deleted this comments is name calling and discrimination …. these sort of comments should be deleted based on the rules on ur website of corse people like me will react when people that are narrow minded and agree with killing sum1 in a temple , which is very disgusting
Although many Hindus subscribe to the belief that one is born into a certain caste this belief is not supported by their scriptures. The caste system in India has degenerated into a system falsely recognizing men born in Brahmin families as Brahmins, even though they don’t exhibit the qualities of Brahmins. This has caused so many problems.
“Brahmanas, ksatriyas, vaisyas and sudras are distinguished by the qualities born of their own natures in accordance with the material modes, O chastiser of the enemy.
“Peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom and religiousness–these are the natural qualities by which the brahmanas work.
“Heroism, power, determination, resourcefulness, courage in battle, generosity and leadership are the natural qualities of work for the ksatriyas.
“Farming, cow protection and business are the natural work for the vaisyas, and for the sudras there is labor and service to others.
Read more at: http://krishna.org/the-indian-caste-system/
In the Vaishnava (Hare Krishna) path, there is no caste whatsoever. You have so many white, chinese, black people as devotees, some even are Gurus. The qualification of a guru is that he must have Shuddha Bhakti (pure love for Sri Hari, God). I.e the guru must be a pure Bhakta(devotee) and then he can give bhakti (devotion) to others.
Haribol
To: real follower of Guru RaviDASS
Yes i think your correct, I didn’t like that people are saying it is fine to have attacked those sants. Devotees of God should surrender to God, and let him deal with things. There are some instances where violence can be advocated, but those are rare.
Bhagavan Sri Hari is given a name, Bhakta Vatsala (Kind to his surrendered devotees). So if one is surrendered, god will look after and protect the devotee.
Hare Krishna
and no we dont want fighting in the temples , u just making the people worse thats not the solution and no thats no what the gurus have tought us , only narrow minded poeple who do killing and blive its god sent , which is not true in any matter , no god agrees with that and told u to do that, its all man made .. it is very sicking that people think it ok to attack any 1 regardless its a saint or not , in a place of god ….. its a very big shame we have very disdrubed people like that that go around attacking people … really people need to be educated about their own religion b4 they harm people that just wana people in god.
WJKK
WJKF
This is indeed a very unfortunate incident and should be condemned by everybody.
SGPC and Akal Takhat should be quick to respond on this and should condemn it whole-heartedly.
This rift between the Sikhs and Ravidasias is uncalled for and unfortunate. We sikhs bow to Sri Ravidas ji daily when we bow in front on Guru Granth Sahib. We have special heart-felt respect for each other.
This incident is a handy work of the people who hate the social setup and harmony of Punjab and want to dismantle the fabric of trust and respect woven by Gurus.
The so-called ‘Upper Caste’ people should at once shed their prejudices against so-called ‘lower caste’ and they should be welcomed into the fold of Khalsa with open arms.
SGPC should work hard to eradicate this rift between so-called ‘Castes’ and should work towards breaking these walls of hatred as envisioned by our great Gurus.
The voilence directed against innocent people should be aborted at once and the thinkful solution should be sorted.
Please don’t let Punjab to be dragged into dark-ages once again.
Wake up Punjabis !!! Wake up Khalsa Ji !!!
WJKK
WJKF
The legend of Guru Rama Nand Ji will live forever!
I have been reading some of the ‘usual suspects’ message boards, and whilst there is a lot of outrage, there are also equal numbers of British Sikhs apologising for this violence. Just checked google news and it is still on the front page, very high profile.
Guru Sant Rama Nand slain in Vienna sikh temple clash
Article from: Herald Sun
AFP
May 26, 2009 12:00am
AN Indian guru died yesterday and 30 people were injured after a knife and gun clash between rival Sikh communities at a temple in Vienna.
A group of men pulled out the weapons as two visiting gurus preached at the temple, where about 200 people had gathered.
Two of the wounded attackers are in a critical condition after being shot in the head, police said.
Guru Sant Rama Nand, 56, died of his wounds in hospital yesterday. The second guru, Sant Niranjan Dass, 66, was in a stable condition.
“Six people did not agree” with the sermon, police spokesman Michael Takacs said. “One drew a firearm, the others knives. The six people were overpowered by members of the community and seriously injured.”
Some victims, all men, were shot in the stomach and legs. The injured were taken away aboard three helicopters to five hospitals for treatment.
“I was outside when it happened and I only heard the shots,” a 21-year-old witness said. “My uncle was hit by a knife on his left side, another man in the eye.”
A total of 11 people were seriously injured in Sunday’s attack, a rescue services spokesman said.
Two other attackers were seriously hurt, while the injuries of the remaining two attackers were less serious; they were in police custody.
Officers had recovered at least three spent cartridges inside the temple and sealed off the surrounding area.
The violence resulted from a dispute between different temples in the Austrian capital, said Kumar Balvinder, vice-president of the temple where the attack occurred.
The temple, which opened in 2005, has protested against the caste system still popular among some Sikhs and has been accused of not strictly following Sikh traditions.
Mr Balvinder said the head of another temple in Vienna had warned violence could break out over the gurus’ visit. He said the information had been passed on to police.
The head of the other temple said yesterday: “We have nothing to do with that.”
In India, the media said a curfew had been imposed in parts of the Sikh-majority city of Jalandhar, in the northern state of Punjab, after violence broke out, apparently in response to the Vienna incident.
Rioters were reported to have pelted buses with stones and to have set a bus, truck and shops ablaze. No one was reported injured.
Sikh Gurus clearly showed that every human has to answer to the Universal God regardless of his/her origins. There is no place for false pride in sikhism. Having said that, sociologically, caste is a support group and Organizational System. Millions of People are born into that, and use it for support and comfort. I dont see why both views cannot co-exist. Eradication of caste system is not important, as much as eradication of False Pride and Ignorance. In the eyes of the Guru all castes are equal, as much as being Austrian, American or Indian…
Im a true ravidassia and am PROUD!! I dont know how some people have been brought up but we are always tought to respect and not discriminate againts others,we all worship the Guru Granth sahib so why go into a place of worship and start a war,not forgetting to take someones life?? Someone who will always be with us in our hearts.
Im disgusted by some of the comments and want people to know that we will always believe in Guru Ravidass and follow Sant Naranjan Dass and Sant Rama Nand (RIP).
carrying your swords isnt something to be pround of and dont give you the right to use them…IT DONT MAKE YOU GOD!!!
I have learnt with pain about this violent incident in Vienna, and also violence as a result of its ramifications in Jallandhar,Punjab. There is no denying the fact, however, all the crooks in Punjab are starting their own deras to scam money from the innocent people, Jatts or chamars etc. beside the point. Can you believe, there are 12,000 registered deras in Punjab, and there are about as many thousands unregistered. These shops of the crooks are busy befooling the innocent people. Besides this, it malines the noble principles of Sikh relgion, where the main emphasis is on EQUALITY, MORALITY, AND UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD. The Sikh tenets: preach fatherhood of One Almighty God for the whole humanity, and brotherhood/sisterhood of all humans as His children. No body is low or high, only according to their good or bad deeds, they are either closer or farther away from the blessings of the Almighty. There are always some mischievous dangerous political elements at the bottom of such unfortunate incidents of violence who use others to incite violence. I pray to all brothers/sisters to maintain peace and calm until the authorities in Austria, and India get to the bottom of this very disgraceful incident in Austria
I am a Ravidassia , i have met and Sant Naranjan Dass and Sant Rama Nand in India and England, they preached peace and equality.
The amount of work they have done in India for the poor / needy is incredible, they have opened schools ,charitable hospitals etc for everyone to use , they go around the world raising money for Charity and worthy causes. What a shame for this to happen, SHAME on these SIKHs , Who's teaching do these Sikhs follow? Forget the caste system the year is 2009 not 1509 WAKE UP!! GET A LIFE,What a bunch of cowards.It will take more than assination of our great Sant Raman Nand to stop the chammar quam.
Sant Raman Nand will always be in our hearts.
WJKK
WJKF
This is indeed a very unfortunate incident and should be condemned by everybody.
SGPC and Akal Takhat should be quick to respond on this and should condemn it whole-heartedly.
This rift between the Sikhs and Ravidasias is uncalled for and unfortunate. We sikhs bow to Sri Ravidas ji daily when we bow in front on Guru Granth Sahib. We have special heart-felt respect for each other.
This incident is a handy work of the people who hate the social setup and harmony of Punjab and want to dismantle the fabric of trust and respect woven by Gurus.
The so-called ‘Upper Caste’ people should at once shed their prejudices against so-called ‘lower caste’ and they should be welcomed into the fold of Khalsa with open arms.
SGPC should work hard to eradicate this rift between so-called ‘Castes’ and should work towards breaking these walls of hatred as envisioned by our great Gurus.
The voilence directed against innocent people should be aborted at once and the thinkful solution should be sorted.
Please don’t let Punjab to be dragged into dark-ages once again.
Wake up Punjabis !!! Wake up Khalsa Ji !!!
WJKK
WJKF
The legend of Guru Rama Nand Ji will live forever!
Those sikhs who believe that caste system is right and that they are somewhat "higher" by virtue of their castes should stop calling themselves "sikhs". They fail the at the very first step. If feudal people like you are right, then Gurus must be wrong. All the Gurus taught the message of equality, universal brotherhood.
Brandishing swords in the sabha of harmless people is an act of cowardliness.
Mr Pushpinder, if their is an iota of wisdom in you, then you must know that 'we should never underestimate the other'. All men are born equal. God who gave you the courage, also blessed the other with the same.
Dasam Patshah gave swords to protect the weak, the meek, not to bullying around weilding them on poor people. This is "fukrapanthi"
Guru ji never happily took swords. He took to sword after having exhausted every possible means. He never allowed the senseless violence ( which you people term as sikhi )He never initiated any fight. All the fights were thrust upon Him.
In jafarnama He wrote:
"Chun kar az hama heelte dar guzast
Halal ast burdan ba-shamsheer dast"
(All modes of redressing a wrong having failed, raising of sword is pious and just)
This was The last resort and that too against the tyranny of the Mugah empire.
But now, the bullies attack innocent people and say to people "Did you see how brave we are ?" You make the mockery of the high standards of sikh traditions.
Besides,who gives you the right to kill anyone ? Can anyone justify killing on any ground ?
And also remember those "who live by the sword, die by the sword"
Im a true ravidassia and am PROUD!! I dont know how some people have been brought up but we are always tought to respect and not discriminate againts others,we all worship the Guru Granth sahib so why go into a place of worship and start a war,not forgetting to take someones life?? Someone who will always be with us in our hearts.
Im disgusted by some of the comments and want people to know that we will always believe in Guru Ravidass and follow Sant Naranjan Dass and Sant Rama Nand (RIP).
carrying your swords isnt something to be pround of and dont give you the right to use them…IT DONT MAKE YOU GOD!!!
It seems funny that there's such a rush to judgment without fully knowing the facts.
It's evident, however, that anti-panthic deras, supported by right-wing hindu organizations/political parties, are doing everything they can to dilute and destroy the Sikh Panth. Their methods are deliberate, yet insidious. Evangelicals, RSS, Arya Samaj, and Deras have become stronger in Punjab over the past decade – as youth revel further into apostacy and neglect the rich heritage into which they were born.
The above posts are indicative of what these organizations want – maligning Sikh ideology and promoting disharmony within the Panth.
I have learnt with pain about this violent incident in Vienna, and also violence as a result of its ramifications in Jallandhar,Punjab. There is no denying the fact, however, all the crooks in Punjab are starting their own deras to scam money from the innocent people, Jatts or chamars etc. beside the point. Can you believe, there are 12,000 registered deras in Punjab, and there are about as many thousands unregistered. These shops of the crooks are busy befooling the innocent people. Besides this, it malines the noble principles of Sikh relgion, where the main emphasis is on EQUALITY, MORALITY, AND UNIVERSAL BROTHERHOOD. The Sikh tenets: preach fatherhood of One Almighty God for the whole humanity, and brotherhood/sisterhood of all humans as His children. No body is low or high, only according to their good or bad deeds, they are either closer or farther away from the blessings of the Almighty. There are always some mischievous dangerous political elements at the bottom of such unfortunate incidents of violence who use others to incite violence. I pray to all brothers/sisters to maintain peace and calm until the authorities in Austria, and India get to the bottom of this very disgraceful incident in Austria
I am a Ravidassia , i have met and Sant Naranjan Dass and Sant Rama Nand in India and England, they preached peace and equality.
The amount of work they have done in India for the poor / needy is incredible, they have opened schools ,charitable hospitals etc for everyone to use , they go around the world raising money for Charity and worthy causes. What a shame for this to happen, SHAME on these SIKHs , Who’s teaching do these Sikhs follow? Forget the caste system the year is 2009 not 1509 WAKE UP!! GET A LIFE,What a bunch of cowards.It will take more than assination of our great Sant Raman Nand to stop the chammar quam.
Sant Raman Nand will always be in our hearts.
Those sikhs who believe that caste system is right and that they are somewhat “higher” by virtue of their castes should stop calling themselves “sikhs”. They fail the at the very first step. If feudal people like you are right, then Gurus must be wrong. All the Gurus taught the message of equality, universal brotherhood.
Brandishing swords in the sabha of harmless people is an act of cowardliness.
Mr Pushpinder, if their is an iota of wisdom in you, then you must know that ‘we should never underestimate the other’. All men are born equal. God who gave you the courage, also blessed the other with the same.
Dasam Patshah gave swords to protect the weak, the meek, not to bullying around weilding them on poor people. This is “fukrapanthi”
Guru ji never happily took swords. He took to sword after having exhausted every possible means. He never allowed the senseless violence ( which you people term as sikhi )He never initiated any fight. All the fights were thrust upon Him.
In jafarnama He wrote:
“Chun kar az hama heelte dar guzast
Halal ast burdan ba-shamsheer dast”
(All modes of redressing a wrong having failed, raising of sword is pious and just)
This was The last resort and that too against the tyranny of the Mugah empire.
But now, the bullies attack innocent people and say to people “Did you see how brave we are ?” You make the mockery of the high standards of sikh traditions.
Besides,who gives you the right to kill anyone ? Can anyone justify killing on any ground ?
And also remember those “who live by the sword, die by the sword“
It is very unfortunate that sikhs have (once again) decided to settle differences with bloodshed. Regardless of the fact that the victims were of lower caste, a similar attack could have happened if the "alleged blasphemy" originated with someone of higher caste. What this incident, like many before this, has shown is a lack of thinkers among sikh leaders. The concept of "uchi matt" is not just to be preached, the community needs direly to practice it.
Is this religion so weak, and its followers feel so threatened constantly, that they must kill anyone they think is "not in line with their view"? These idiots pull a thick curtain of fanaticism, irrationality, and violence on the ideals of a great revolution initiated by Guru Nanak. When these deeds are done, these so called fundamentalists show themselves as no better than those who they were supposed to rise above.
Perhaps it's time to hammer out and apply a criteria for priesthood in sikhisim. A criteria based on education, intelligence, levelheadedness, patience, and tolerance. Maybe then there might be a critical mass of thinkers in the community that will cool off those quick to re-enact battles of the 18th century.
I believe that sikh community should openly condemn this act of violence, and send a message to these "fundamentalists" that they should also practice 99% of the rest of the religion that comes before taking up the sword.
This is indeed funniest thing on part of the Sikh organisations that on one hand they treat some people (read dalits ) as if they were born of a lesser God… and on the other hand they want them to believe what they believe in ! How funny ! They go where they are treated at par with others. Where they are loved (and certainly not despised ). Read the history. Nobody has been able to enslave other beings for long.The day of reckoning comes one day, sooner or later. The great day of Resurrection
Decorative words like "insidious" "evangelicals" have nothing to do with the dalit movement. Since they are an outcastes of Sikhism, they moved away. Sikhism is now a Jattism.The Great Great Sikh religion that was for the downtrodden dalits no longer exists. It is as simple as that.
Before finding fault with other, first set your own house in order.
It seems funny that there’s such a rush to judgment without fully knowing the facts.
It’s evident, however, that anti-panthic deras, supported by right-wing hindu organizations/political parties, are doing everything they can to dilute and destroy the Sikh Panth. Their methods are deliberate, yet insidious. Evangelicals, RSS, Arya Samaj, and Deras have become stronger in Punjab over the past decade – as youth revel further into apostacy and neglect the rich heritage into which they were born.
The above posts are indicative of what these organizations want – maligning Sikh ideology and promoting disharmony within the Panth.
Time has come to dump a religion (if ever it was one) which has given us the dalits nothing but humiliation. I would say dalits in Hinduism fold are much better off. Look at Mayawati and other Dalit politicians. at least they can rise to the highest post in India. and punjab!!! CM HAS to be a jat. as someone has said somewhere in this thread – Sikhism is nothing but Jattism. let them have it and let us say with one voice – HUM SIKH NAHIN
It is very unfortunate that sikhs have (once again) decided to settle differences with bloodshed. Regardless of the fact that the victims were of lower caste, a similar attack could have happened if the “alleged blasphemy” originated with someone of higher caste. What this incident, like many before this, has shown is a lack of thinkers among sikh leaders. The concept of “uchi matt” is not just to be preached, the community needs direly to practice it.
Is this religion so weak, and its followers feel so threatened constantly, that they must kill anyone they think is “not in line with their view”? These idiots pull a thick curtain of fanaticism, irrationality, and violence on the ideals of a great revolution initiated by Guru Nanak. When these deeds are done, these so called fundamentalists show themselves as no better than those who they were supposed to rise above.
Perhaps it’s time to hammer out and apply a criteria for priesthood in sikhisim. A criteria based on education, intelligence, levelheadedness, patience, and tolerance. Maybe then there might be a critical mass of thinkers in the community that will cool off those quick to re-enact battles of the 18th century.
I believe that sikh community should openly condemn this act of violence, and send a message to these “fundamentalists” that they should also practice 99% of the rest of the religion that comes before taking up the sword.
This is indeed funniest thing on part of the Sikh organisations that on one hand they treat some people (read dalits ) as if they were born of a lesser God… and on the other hand they want them to believe what they believe in ! How funny ! They go where they are treated at par with others. Where they are loved (and certainly not despised ). Read the history. Nobody has been able to enslave other beings for long.The day of reckoning comes one day, sooner or later. The great day of Resurrection
Decorative words like “insidious” “evangelicals” have nothing to do with the dalit movement. Since they are an outcastes of Sikhism, they moved away. Sikhism is now a Jattism.The Great Great Sikh religion that was for the downtrodden dalits no longer exists. It is as simple as that.
Before finding fault with other, first set your own house in order.
Basically it seems like this is the start of the end of so called DHARAM DE RAKHWALEY KHALISTANI'S….these Pakistani funded khalistanis are just hell bent on giving bad name to Sikhism now and again….what was Sant Bhindrawaley,he was just a human being and a preacher of Sikhism but the problem with khalistanis is that they think there was only one true preacher in Sikhism and that was Sant Bhindrawaley all others are just fakes….I respect Sant Bhindrawaley he was a great visionary a great leader but until he was influenced by American CIA and Pakistani ISI who had there own interest because Russia at that time had captured Afghanistan and Russian influence in the region was growing and India happened to be a great Russian Allie,on one side of Pakistan(a strong American Allie) was Russia with its mighty army and on the other side of pakistan was India.a small rise of tension could have been an attack on Pakistan from both ends and a blow for America to establish there hold on the region.
so American intelligence conceived the plan of taking Pakistan in confidence and given the fact Sant Bhindrawaley had a big following in Punjab and tensions were obviously rising america handed over the job to Pakistan ISI to take Sant Bhindrawaley in confidence that if you wage a rebellion against India for a separate nation Pakistan and America will back you.But indian intelligence was already aware of this and b4 any delay they decided to take control of the situation and without any warning operation blue star took place.I am not justifying operation blue star in any way because there were better ways of flushing out the militants inside and had indian army surrounded the premises of Harmandir sahib and left no escape route for militants to escape then they would have probably surrounded voluntarily after few weeks but that's history and you can't change it now.
but whats happening outside india today like the incident in vienna which i can guarantee is perpetrated by khalistanis is dangerous,the way khalistanis are taking control of gurudwaras around the world with the financial backing of Pakistan is dangerous for the whole Sikh community and for Punjab and for India.
In UK Canada and America kids are brain washed and taught that India is there biggest enemy….in UK khalistanis are taking control of gurudwaras one by one and brain washing kids on the name of religion that we want want freedom from India and India is our biggest enemy…..something Sikhs in Punjab do not even endorse slightly.
The Sikh community need to wake up and do not let fundamentalist extremists take Punjab into the dark ages it went in the 80's
Its time to wake up for the entire Sikh community,plz for the sake of peaceful Punjab don't support the fundamentalists.
Ditto
A long time ago. Bhai Kan Singh Nabha had to say : Hum Hindu Nahi. But, now the time has come to say : Hum Sikh Nahi.
Do your own business. Leave us with ours. We, unlike you can never say derogatory remarks regarding spiritual gurus. We, unlike you can never interfere with others' affairs. We never offend anyone. These are your copyrights.
Ibadat Gill's statement is symptomatic of the underlying issue here. The easiest way to cop out of such a situation is to drum up some conspiracy theories and lay the blame on anyone outside, as long as it rids us of the responsibility of any kind of introspection.
"…. anti-panthic deras, supported by right-wing hindu organizations/political parties, are doing everything they can to dilute and destroy the Sikh Panth. Their methods are deliberate, yet insidious. Evangelicals, RSS, Arya Samaj, and Deras have become stronger in Punjab over the past decade….."
The number of followers of such deras runs into millions, surely Mr. Ibadat Singh doesn't think that all of these followers have been enticed into joining such deras just due to right wing hindu organizations' influence (money/power/brainwashing). Unfortunately the caste fissures in India run very deep, and this issue was never solved, not even in Punjab under the influence of Sikhi. Hence people looked outside, for some kind of solace, emotional reassurance. This is a collective failure of all of us. Instead of pointing fingers at outside organizations, we should be wondering what went wrong. Its sickening that we have so many apologists of such dastardly acts.
Mr. Ibadat S. Gill follows that up by claiming that "..as youth revel further into apostacy and neglect the rich heritage into which they were born…", it doesn't take a genius to realize that such wanton acts of aggression and violence will not influence youngsters to comeback into the fold of Sikhism. Violence and such hatred towards each other is one of the reasons for the youth not to be interested in the Sikhism. No matter how glorious sikh history and heritage may be, in their eyes it gets overshadowed by such acts of some self acclaimed defenders of faith taking the matter in their own hands. It isn't very rare for arguments at Gurdwaras getting heated and leading to the drawing of kirpans, surely such people don't understand the significance of kirpans. Kirpans are not meant for settling debates and discussions.
And this act was worse than that, it wasn't an act of rage wherein a debate turned violent and people in a fit of rage drew their weapons. This was a pre-planned act akin to the taliban killing followers of sufi saints in Pakistan and blowing up sufi shrines, to 'cleanse' their religion of such traditions.
atheist
i agrre with you completely and would like to give a prime example below.
one example is the change of leadership in gurudwara singh sabha in southall….the previous gurudwara management did not let anyone use its gurudwara premises for anti indian activities but under the new management anti indian propoganda is flourishing there is a khalistani fella a truck driver by the name Navraj Singh Cheema who is organizing classes for youth and just spitting venom against India and provoking the youth to wage a war against India.i am just baffled how these people get away by inciting hatred against a country or religion becoz if he was a Muslim he would have been behind bars for doing so.
Time has come to dump a religion (if ever it was one) which has given us the dalits nothing but humiliation. I would say dalits in Hinduism fold are much better off. Look at Mayawati and other Dalit politicians. at least they can rise to the highest post in India. and punjab!!! CM HAS to be a jat. as someone has said somewhere in this thread – Sikhism is nothing but Jattism. let them have it and let us say with one voice – HUM SIKH NAHIN
Basically it seems like this is the start of the end of so called DHARAM DE RAKHWALEY KHALISTANI’S….these Pakistani funded khalistanis are just hell bent on giving bad name to Sikhism now and again….what was Sant Bhindrawaley,he was just a human being and a preacher of Sikhism but the problem with khalistanis is that they think there was only one true preacher in Sikhism and that was Sant Bhindrawaley all others are just fakes….I respect Sant Bhindrawaley he was a great visionary a great leader but until he was influenced by American CIA and Pakistani ISI who had there own interest because Russia at that time had captured Afghanistan and Russian influence in the region was growing and India happened to be a great Russian Allie,on one side of Pakistan(a strong American Allie) was Russia with its mighty army and on the other side of pakistan was India.a small rise of tension could have been an attack on Pakistan from both ends and a blow for America to establish there hold on the region.
so American intelligence conceived the plan of taking Pakistan in confidence and given the fact Sant Bhindrawaley had a big following in Punjab and tensions were obviously rising america handed over the job to Pakistan ISI to take Sant Bhindrawaley in confidence that if you wage a rebellion against India for a separate nation Pakistan and America will back you.But indian intelligence was already aware of this and b4 any delay they decided to take control of the situation and without any warning operation blue star took place.I am not justifying operation blue star in any way because there were better ways of flushing out the militants inside and had indian army surrounded the premises of Harmandir sahib and left no escape route for militants to escape then they would have probably surrounded voluntarily after few weeks but that’s history and you can’t change it now.
but whats happening outside india today like the incident in vienna which i can guarantee is perpetrated by khalistanis is dangerous,the way khalistanis are taking control of gurudwaras around the world with the financial backing of Pakistan is dangerous for the whole Sikh community and for Punjab and for India.
In UK Canada and America kids are brain washed and taught that India is there biggest enemy….in UK khalistanis are taking control of gurudwaras one by one and brain washing kids on the name of religion that we want want freedom from India and India is our biggest enemy…..something Sikhs in Punjab do not even endorse slightly.
The Sikh community need to wake up and do not let fundamentalist extremists take Punjab into the dark ages it went in the 80’s
Its time to wake up for the entire Sikh community,plz for the sake of peaceful Punjab don’t support the fundamentalists.
It is NOT because of caste. I have never seen Sikhs killing someone because of their ego or caste or anything. There is DEFINITELY a truth behind it. And, there are many babas like him who try to be "nice and pure" from above but are very corrupt and perform all kinds of crimes. Sikhs who cannot stand this crime take an action to uproot evil. People need to understand that there is a "just" cause behind it, i.e. to uproot evil.
Basically it seems like this is the start of the end of so called DHARAM DE RAKHWALEY KHALISTANI’S….these Pakistani funded khalistanis are just hell bent on giving bad name to Sikhism now and again….what was Sant Bhindrawaley,he was just a human being and a preacher of Sikhism but the problem with khalistanis is that they think there was only one true preacher in Sikhism and that was Sant Bhindrawaley all others are just fakes….I respect Sant Bhindrawaley he was a great visionary a great leader but until he was influenced by American CIA and Pakistani ISI who had there own interest because Russia at that time had captured Afghanistan and Russian influence in the region was growing and India happened to be a great Russian Allie,on one side of Pakistan(a strong American Allie) was Russia with its mighty army and on the other side of pakistan was India.a small rise of tension could have been an attack on Pakistan from both ends and a blow for America to establish there hold on the region.
so American intelligence conceived the plan of taking Pakistan in confidence and given the fact Sant Bhindrawaley had a big following in Punjab and tensions were obviously rising america handed over the job to Pakistan ISI to take Sant Bhindrawaley in confidence that if you wage a rebellion against India for a separate nation Pakistan and America will back you.But indian intelligence was already aware of this and b4 any delay they decided to take control of the situation and without any warning operation blue star took place.I am not justifying operation blue star in any way because there were better ways of flushing out the militants inside and had indian army surrounded the premises of Harmandir sahib and left no escape route for militants to escape then they would have probably surrounded voluntarily after few weeks but that’s history and you can’t change it now.
but whats happening outside india today like the incident in vienna which i can guarantee is perpetrated by khalistanis is dangerous,the way khalistanis are taking control of gurudwaras around the world with the financial backing of Pakistan is dangerous for the whole Sikh community and for Punjab and for India.
In UK Canada and America kids are brain washed and taught that India is there biggest enemy….in UK khalistanis are taking control of gurudwaras one by one and brain washing kids on the name of religion that we want want freedom from India and India is our biggest enemy…..something Sikhs in Punjab do not even endorse slightly.
The Sikh community need to wake up and do not let fundamentalist extremists take Punjab into the dark ages it went in the 80’s
Its time to wake up for the entire Sikh community,plz for the sake of peaceful Punjab don’t support the fundamentalists.
Ditto
A long time ago. Bhai Kan Singh Nabha had to say : Hum Hindu Nahi. But, now the time has come to say : Hum Sikh Nahi.
Do your own business. Leave us with ours. We, unlike you can never say derogatory remarks regarding spiritual gurus. We, unlike you can never interfere with others’ affairs. We never offend anyone. These are your copyrights.
It's strange how when the collective consciousness of the Panth awakens to the fact that: "Anti-panthic deras are doing everything they can to dilute and destroy the Sikh Panth" — detractors point fingers at the Sikh faith in order to evade the subject. Having grown up in Adampur, Dist. Jallandhar, I have witnessed this first hand.
1) Babas and deras are a serious problem – they have thousands of followers becuause they prey on the weak and peope's misfortunes and simple-mindedness. It is true that humans will even look to stones for faith, if the stone will provide an escape and solace from their worldy woes. There was a joke in my mamaji's pind Shankar, Dist. Jallandhar, that when you pick up a rock, underneath it will come out a new baba. A MAJORITY of these babas defile the message of the Guru Sahibaan and teach contradictory teachings. They also incite violence to cause unrest and gain populist support. They manipulate the public and capitalise on the fact that Punjab's demographics have changed rapidly (with the influx of UP migrants and the promotion of chamaars, as scheduled classes – quotas). These babas often provide a false sense of unity to these groups who have felt they have been marginalized by Jatt Sikhs.
3) I urge readers in the West to understand the situation is more complex than posters here are describing. In reality the same chamaar families that cleaned our vehras back in the day, are now producing doctors and engineers due to government MANDATED admissions in med schools and engineering colleges. Ideologically (i.e. Sikhi de mutabik) this is great! But the result? Lower castes gaining admittance over other more qualified people. Is this what fairness is all about? Do you want to be treated by a doctor who is competent and received high marks, or by a less-qualified doctor who gained admittance to med-school based on his "caste"? Issues like these are imbedded into Punjabi society, and are being dealt with on a daily basis. Many people resent this lack of meritocracy – but Sikhs outstide India cannot understand it because they want everything in the name of "Fairness". The caste issue is more about day to day life and a meritorious society – than the Sikh religion.
2) Youth are not into Sikhi becuase MTV culture is stronger. Drugs and HIV are a problem – youth want to leave Punjab, they feel modernity lies in learning English and dispensing with their faith. Many Punjabi youth were brainwashed in the 90s to think that Sant Jarnail Singh was a terrorist – without knowing it was Indira Gandhi that brought him into the political fold as a counter-weight to the Akalis, and without knowing that Sikh itihaas and Sikh siyasaat have ALWAYS had a history of starting from our Gurdwaras. Similarly, Hindu goivenment/political agenda will lead you to believe that Guru Gobind Singh was a terrorist because he took up arms against invading armies. Applying the same logic and anti-Sikh agenda, Baba Deep Singh was a terrorist becuause he died defending Darbar Singh (like Jarnail Singh Bhindranwala). Bhagat Singh was a terrorist becuase he bombed the parliament (despite taking a principled stand against injustice and persecution).
Let me remind you that the Britishers, at one time, also regarded people like Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson as terrorists.
Ibadat Gill’s statement is symptomatic of the underlying issue here. The easiest way to cop out of such a situation is to drum up some conspiracy theories and lay the blame on anyone outside, as long as it rids us of the responsibility of any kind of introspection.
“…. anti-panthic deras, supported by right-wing hindu organizations/political parties, are doing everything they can to dilute and destroy the Sikh Panth. Their methods are deliberate, yet insidious. Evangelicals, RSS, Arya Samaj, and Deras have become stronger in Punjab over the past decade…..”
The number of followers of such deras runs into millions, surely Mr. Ibadat Singh doesn’t think that all of these followers have been enticed into joining such deras just due to right wing hindu organizations’ influence (money/power/brainwashing). Unfortunately the caste fissures in India run very deep, and this issue was never solved, not even in Punjab under the influence of Sikhi. Hence people looked outside, for some kind of solace, emotional reassurance. This is a collective failure of all of us. Instead of pointing fingers at outside organizations, we should be wondering what went wrong. Its sickening that we have so many apologists of such dastardly acts.
Mr. Ibadat S. Gill follows that up by claiming that “..as youth revel further into apostacy and neglect the rich heritage into which they were born…”, it doesn’t take a genius to realize that such wanton acts of aggression and violence will not influence youngsters to comeback into the fold of Sikhism. Violence and such hatred towards each other is one of the reasons for the youth not to be interested in the Sikhism. No matter how glorious sikh history and heritage may be, in their eyes it gets overshadowed by such acts of some self acclaimed defenders of faith taking the matter in their own hands. It isn’t very rare for arguments at Gurdwaras getting heated and leading to the drawing of kirpans, surely such people don’t understand the significance of kirpans. Kirpans are not meant for settling debates and discussions.
And this act was worse than that, it wasn’t an act of rage wherein a debate turned violent and people in a fit of rage drew their weapons. This was a pre-planned act akin to the taliban killing followers of sufi saints in Pakistan and blowing up sufi shrines, to ‘cleanse’ their religion of such traditions.
atheist
i agrre with you completely and would like to give a prime example below.
one example is the change of leadership in gurudwara singh sabha in southall….the previous gurudwara management did not let anyone use its gurudwara premises for anti indian activities but under the new management anti indian propoganda is flourishing there is a khalistani fella a truck driver by the name Navraj Singh Cheema who is organizing classes for youth and just spitting venom against India and provoking the youth to wage a war against India.i am just baffled how these people get away by inciting hatred against a country or religion becoz if he was a Muslim he would have been behind bars for doing so.
another observer i agree with your statement below
Many Punjabi youth were brainwashed in the 90s to think that Sant Jarnail Singh was a terrorist – without knowing it was Indira Gandhi that brought him into the political fold as a counter-weight to the Akalis
but indira's decision backfired when the CIA and pakistan realised the importance of sant bhindrawale and his following got hold of him told him to start a rebellion against India and they will support him,as they say………….rest is history
I am with Virk on this completely.
Virk writes:
"Is this religion so weak, and its followers feel so threatened constantly, that they must kill anyone they think is “not in line with their view”?"
Couldn't have been said better. Is this religion really that insecure that it cannot tolerate someone they do not agree with? Some commenter on this site said somewhere that those who are turbaned Sikhs and don't go to gurdwaras should be taught a lesson. Say what? What of personal freedoms? Perhaps that person was born in a Sikh family and grew up wearing a turban but he decided to be a nirankari in his adulthood … is he to stop wearing a turban all of a sudden? He defines his identity with his turban. Is he to get rid of it just because his religious choice changed? Why can't Sikhs tolerate him as is? Why is he supposed to 'fall in line with the views' of fanatics who would otherwise kill him?
Sad. Terrible. These are days when I am ashamed to even admit that I am related to these people in any manner. Are we really headed the jehadi route? What is this that I read of sikh equivalents of madrassas being conducting in Southall gurdwara preaching hatred against India?
My goodness! Smarten up, kids !! See truth for what it is before your own hatred consumes you.
Basically it seems like this is the start of the end of so called DHARAM DE RAKHWALEY KHALISTANI’S….these Pakistani funded khalistanis are just hell bent on giving bad name to Sikhism now and again….what was Sant Bhindrawaley,he was just a human being and a preacher of Sikhism but the problem with khalistanis is that they think there was only one true preacher in Sikhism and that was Sant Bhindrawaley all others are just fakes….I respect Sant Bhindrawaley he was a great visionary a great leader but until he was influenced by American CIA and Pakistani ISI who had there own interest because Russia at that time had captured Afghanistan and Russian influence in the region was growing and India happened to be a great Russian Allie,on one side of Pakistan(a strong American Allie) was Russia with its mighty army and on the other side of pakistan was India.a small rise of tension could have been an attack on Pakistan from both ends and a blow for America to establish there hold on the region.
so American intelligence conceived the plan of taking Pakistan in confidence and given the fact Sant Bhindrawaley had a big following in Punjab and tensions were obviously rising america handed over the job to Pakistan ISI to take Sant Bhindrawaley in confidence that if you wage a rebellion against India for a separate nation Pakistan and America will back you.But indian intelligence was already aware of this and b4 any delay they decided to take control of the situation and without any warning operation blue star took place.I am not justifying operation blue star in any way because there were better ways of flushing out the militants inside and had indian army surrounded the premises of Harmandir sahib and left no escape route for militants to escape then they would have probably surrounded voluntarily after few weeks but that’s history and you can’t change it now.
but whats happening outside india today like the incident in vienna which i can guarantee is perpetrated by khalistanis is dangerous,the way khalistanis are taking control of gurudwaras around the world with the financial backing of Pakistan is dangerous for the whole Sikh community and for Punjab and for India.
In UK Canada and America kids are brain washed and taught that India is there biggest enemy….in UK khalistanis are taking control of gurudwaras one by one and brain washing kids on the name of religion that we want want freedom from India and India is our biggest enemy…..something Sikhs in Punjab do not even endorse slightly.
The Sikh community need to wake up and do not let fundamentalist extremists take Punjab into the dark ages it went in the 80’s
Its time to wake up for the entire Sikh community,plz for the sake of peaceful Punjab don’t support the fundamentalists.
its sad that sikh madrassas are set up around the world and kids as young as 5 are taught to wage jihad against India……sad…very sad indeed that we are not far from being talibanised by these minority of so called "sikhi re rakhwaley"
It is NOT because of caste. I have never seen Sikhs killing someone because of their ego or caste or anything. There is DEFINITELY a truth behind it. And, there are many babas like him who try to be “nice and pure” from above but are very corrupt and perform all kinds of crimes. Sikhs who cannot stand this crime take an action to uproot evil. People need to understand that there is a “just” cause behind it, i.e. to uproot evil.
Exactly!
I just skimmed through the posts above and what I see is that some people have so much hatred in their hearts that they tell Sikhs to give up kirpans and sikhs are corrput. The first thing is that they don't understand the meaning of kirpan…it is to defend someone. If someone was about to rape you or kill you and ur an innocent person would u not say "oh thanks lord i have this tool with me gifted by you that has helped me save humanity from these crooks." Yes, you would! And, Sikhism does not preach caste system which is very well known and yes there are few sikhs those think they are the highest, but they still don't go around killing others by telling them that im a "jatt" or "lebana" n im gonna kill u. NO they dont do that.
I'm not justifying the attacks, and some of u wont beleive this. It's like that "shoe matter." The reason was just, but their way of uprooting evil was wrong. But, then again no one else doing anything to uproot it. may be they were just tired of the crooks and could not bear it anymore. But, again that doesn't justify the act since its against our shabad Guru.
And, then I also heard someone saying science has reason so stop following religion. For them I would like to say that Sikh religion has all the science of the world that even scientists have not understood yet.
As said in out Guru Granth Sahib, there is no point in arguing with the fools and the ignorants, they'll learn the lesson one day, but don't stop following ur path because of them. Keep up your faith as God will test you until and unless you prove ur Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Khalsa.
Because, in the end as predicted by Guru Gobind Singh hundereds of years ago (he predicted a lot of things years ago):
Raaj Karega Khalsa Aaki Rahe Na Koe, Khwaar Hoye Sab Milenge Bache Sharan Jo Hoye. Bole So Nihaal Sat Sri Akal
It’s strange how when the collective consciousness of the Panth awakens to the fact that: “Anti-panthic deras are doing everything they can to dilute and destroy the Sikh Panth” — detractors point fingers at the Sikh faith in order to evade the subject. Having grown up in Adampur, Dist. Jallandhar, I have witnessed this first hand.
1) Babas and deras are a serious problem – they have thousands of followers becuause they prey on the weak and peope’s misfortunes and simple-mindedness. It is true that humans will even look to stones for faith, if the stone will provide an escape and solace from their worldy woes. There was a joke in my mamaji’s pind Shankar, Dist. Jallandhar, that when you pick up a rock, underneath it will come out a new baba. A MAJORITY of these babas defile the message of the Guru Sahibaan and teach contradictory teachings. They also incite violence to cause unrest and gain populist support. They manipulate the public and capitalise on the fact that Punjab’s demographics have changed rapidly (with the influx of UP migrants and the promotion of chamaars, as scheduled classes – quotas). These babas often provide a false sense of unity to these groups who have felt they have been marginalized by Jatt Sikhs.
3) I urge readers in the West to understand the situation is more complex than posters here are describing. In reality the same chamaar families that cleaned our vehras back in the day, are now producing doctors and engineers due to government MANDATED admissions in med schools and engineering colleges. Ideologically (i.e. Sikhi de mutabik) this is great! But the result? Lower castes gaining admittance over other more qualified people. Is this what fairness is all about? Do you want to be treated by a doctor who is competent and received high marks, or by a less-qualified doctor who gained admittance to med-school based on his “caste”? Issues like these are imbedded into Punjabi society, and are being dealt with on a daily basis. Many people resent this lack of meritocracy – but Sikhs outstide India cannot understand it because they want everything in the name of “Fairness”. The caste issue is more about day to day life and a meritorious society – than the Sikh religion.
2) Youth are not into Sikhi becuase MTV culture is stronger. Drugs and HIV are a problem – youth want to leave Punjab, they feel modernity lies in learning English and dispensing with their faith. Many Punjabi youth were brainwashed in the 90s to think that Sant Jarnail Singh was a terrorist – without knowing it was Indira Gandhi that brought him into the political fold as a counter-weight to the Akalis, and without knowing that Sikh itihaas and Sikh siyasaat have ALWAYS had a history of starting from our Gurdwaras. Similarly, Hindu goivenment/political agenda will lead you to believe that Guru Gobind Singh was a terrorist because he took up arms against invading armies. Applying the same logic and anti-Sikh agenda, Baba Deep Singh was a terrorist becuause he died defending Darbar Singh (like Jarnail Singh Bhindranwala). Bhagat Singh was a terrorist becuase he bombed the parliament (despite taking a principled stand against injustice and persecution).
Let me remind you that the Britishers, at one time, also regarded people like Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson as terrorists.
Dear Ibadat, I agree with you that the facts need to be established first. In this respect, what is your definition of right-wing Hindu organizations? Hindu organizations in Punjab are very diverse and same goes for Sikh organizations. One can not deny that Hinduism for over 5000 years in Punjab has captured the hearts of the believers in God and one can not deny that Sikhism has brought many Punjabi's to a firm and committed faith in the Almighty.
Your opinion is that other religions are diluting the Sikh Panth in Punjab, while above organizations might claim that they want to serve the spiritual needs of the people in Punjab. And we shouldn't forget that the Punjabi relaity is similar to Nepali reality where people practice the tenets of more than one faith.(Sikhism and Hinduism vs. Hinduism and Buddhism)
Both in Hinduism and Sikhish there are people who want to gain a powerful position in religious affairs based on their family and caste status. Though, both are not supported by the religious scriptures or words of the Guru's and Sants. No community is going to benefit from playing the caste card by attacking other religions. As long as the debate resolves around the caste card cronyism among one's faith community will never be eliminated.
Perhaps it is time to open the caste debate more open and prominent then before. Just say what you believe on your personal account, that's the only way we are going to solve this issue.