Sikhs and Dera SachKhand – Vienna and Jalandhar
As suggested by our readers (pagh salute: ambi and an indian Sikh), I am posting on the tragedy in Vienna. The facts are still coming in, so we have little perspective on what exactly occurred.
This much is known. In the Austrian capital of Vienna, six Sikh men carrying various weapons and a handgun entered a Dera [Some media are calling this a ‘Sikh temple’ or a ‘gurdwara’, but it seems to be a dera attached to the Sach Khand group]. The men proceeded to go towards the ‘preachers’ of the Dera and in the melee 16 people have been reported injured, including 6 seriously – two names have been reported amongst the injured – Niranjan Das and Sant Rama Nand – and the other 4 were the attackers (there are rumors that Sant Rama Nand may have been killed, but this has not yet been confirmed. Sant Rama Nand is one of the highest leaders of the SachaKhand Dera).
Some of the media is attempting to frame the dispute in terms of caste, asserting that the Dera is set up to honor Bhagat Ravi Das, whose own Bani can be found in the Guru Granth Sahib. Other reports for a cause have provided the following:
[the attackers] accused one or both of the preachers of being disrespectful of the Holy Book [Sri Guru Granth Sahib]. Indian news reports said the attackers were incensed that one of the preachers was given a ceremonial shawl considered a high Sikh honor. [link]
Still some of the local press has provided the following reason:
It was assumed by local media that the conflict between the temples like competing for worshipers might be the reason of this shooting incident. [link]
The story does not end there.
Seemingly sparked by the incident in Vienna, violence soon broke out in Jalandhar in Punjab.
As soon the news of firing on the Sant and his followers reached Jalandhar, hundreds of people belonging to dalit community came out of their houses and started pelting stones on the buses and other vehicles plying on Jalandhar-Nakodar, Jalandhar-Phagwara road. The mob set a truck on fire in Bootan Mandi and smashed the window panes of more one dozen buses. The mob blocked the traffic nearly on all roads leading to other cities and towns.
The protestors gave a call of Punjab Bandh on Monday and threatened that Bharat Bandh call would be given in case the assailants were not nabbed with in a day or two. Fearing damage to the petroleum out lets the pump owners closed their out lets. The police is facing hard times to control the situation. The whole city has been converted in to a police cantonment to avoid any type of untoward incident. The infuriated mob declined to lift dharna in Bootan Mandi chowk. [link]
A curfew has been declared in Jalandhar by the Punjab Government. This is not the first time there has been caste-related violence in Doaba.
I have checked Twitter as of 3:41pm PST and no eye-witnesses have added anything to the story. I have also checked some of the foreign presses and there is no extra information there.
So here I begin a reflection. Most posts will come to condemn the actions by these men. I agree with the sentiment. I don’t want to get too far ahead of myself, but as a person who has tried to actively engage with members of our community that are part of the Ravi Das Sabha in Roseville, Caruthers, and Pittsburgh, it is absolutely necessary for the greater Sikh community to make amends and move beyond the caste-conscious that continues to divide us as a community and as a Qaum. I have personally participated in the Nagar Kirtans and various functions at these Guru Ghars. Until we begin to heal these fractions and realize that caste is only a figment of our imagination that we have the power to let go, we will continued to be divided on the very basis that our Sikh Gurus initiated a revolution. Each individual that calls themselves a Sikh of the Guru needs to re-evaluate our own outlooks, whether it be in terms of friends, associates, marriage partners, or even the seemingly small (but actually malignant) jokes people tell.
Instead of knee-jerk accusations and knee-jerk counter-accusations, I hope that we can take a moment to reflect. I hope here in The Langar Hall, where the crusade against caste has always played a prominent role, I hope we can engage in introspection and begin to develop real solutions.
For the most recent updates, see this post.
152 Responses to “Sikhs and Dera SachKhand – Vienna and Jalandhar”
Why is it some people are only able to commit acts of violence. is it all they understand ? or is it misplaced bravery ? whatever it is, killing people in a gudwara can never be the right way to do anything.
Why is it some people are only able to commit acts of violence. is it all they understand ? or is it misplaced bravery ? whatever it is, killing people in a gudwara can never be the right way to do anything.
Equality was the fundamental principle upon which whole teaching of the Holy book stand. These attackers belong to the stone age. They don't even understand the tenets of the Holy book yet they become self-declared owners of it. It belongs to the entire humanity. Such fanatic idiots throw millions of people into the fire of hatred. Such perpetrators should never be allowed to go scot-free.
These cowards should be hanged in full public view. They show their "bravery" upon seeing a harmless person like those attacked. But have they ever had the guts to attack the strong opponent?
i think god is one but people don't understand. if you look at ek om akar, cross,om or aallhhaa in muslim. all of them mean is god is one. but fighting on this base i am higher or i am lower caste it seems like you are behaving like you are god. i will say only one word each person has his own views like dhanna bhagat who thought that god exists in a simple stone so he finally he found him in it. like shri gururavidas who showed people jneo which is wear by pandits. i just want to say that respect each person feelings if you can't do that then you don't respect god. because god says respect and love everything which is made by me so doesnot matter it's human, animal, believes or whatever. rest all of you know very well. i believe my god is one so wherever i go it doesnot make any difference for me it is shri guru granth sahib or it is shri guru ravidass jii or it is khuda , jesus, or om .
These people should not be forgiven. Those who met maharaj ji knew what a great person he was. Although they met millions of people in their life, they treated all of their followers with the utmost care. They always remembered your name and all of the major lifes ideas. I hope that those who killed maharaj ji will die a thousand deaths, and spend eternity in the pits of hell. We will always love you maharaj ji and will never forget.
Equality was the fundamental principle upon which whole teaching of the Holy book stand. These attackers belong to the stone age. They don’t even understand the tenets of the Holy book yet they become self-declared owners of it. It belongs to the entire humanity. Such fanatic idiots throw millions of people into the fire of hatred. Such perpetrators should never be allowed to go scot-free.
These cowards should be hanged in full public view. They show their “bravery” upon seeing a harmless person like those attacked. But have they ever had the guts to attack the strong opponent?
i think god is one but people don’t understand. if you look at ek om akar, cross,om or aallhhaa in muslim. all of them mean is god is one. but fighting on this base i am higher or i am lower caste it seems like you are behaving like you are god. i will say only one word each person has his own views like dhanna bhagat who thought that god exists in a simple stone so he finally he found him in it. like shri gururavidas who showed people jneo which is wear by pandits. i just want to say that respect each person feelings if you can’t do that then you don’t respect god. because god says respect and love everything which is made by me so doesnot matter it’s human, animal, believes or whatever. rest all of you know very well. i believe my god is one so wherever i go it doesnot make any difference for me it is shri guru granth sahib or it is shri guru ravidass jii or it is khuda , jesus, or om .
These people should not be forgiven. Those who met maharaj ji knew what a great person he was. Although they met millions of people in their life, they treated all of their followers with the utmost care. They always remembered your name and all of the major lifes ideas. I hope that those who killed maharaj ji will die a thousand deaths, and spend eternity in the pits of hell. We will always love you maharaj ji and will never forget.
I request to all foreign goverment to against this to rapid action on all those comuninty which disturbed my punjab,, Evevryone know that this is those comuunity which was made big violence in punjab.. like please we request to all police force nd comuunity in foreighn please cleane this all militant sikh comunity babar khalsa and other etc.
Nobody in the world takes so much pride in their "caste" or "creed" as our sikhs take in showing themselves as "Jatts". They believe that "jatt" is an upper caste ! In this pursuit, they left everybody behind even the originators of this caste system, the brahmins ! They dont know that according to the caste system "jatts" are shudras also ! Throughout India, they are regarded as one of the most backward classes. Exception is Punjab and Haryana, where, by virtue of the lands they possess they have become materially rich. But then, Kambojs and Sainis also do well in these regions (oh !is it a diff matter altogether ?? ). The caste system has delved deep into their genes. Now a days, you will find thousands of Pandits with an open & broad mind but you will not find a single upper caste (jatt) who does not look down to those who belong to the lower strata of the society. What a pathetic situation.
Names of todays sikhs are :
D.S. Gill
B.S. Dhillon, S.S. Bhatia (you may never know whether he is Shyam Sunder Bhatia )…. the list is endless !
Sri Guru Harmandir Sahib has four main gates. They symbolises that they are for everyone including "dalits". Infact, sikh religion was formed "for" the downtroddens. Guru Nanak Sahib sided with dalit bhai Lalo and said…neechai andar neech jaat… Nanak tin ke sang saath wadeyan seu kya reece"
His companion was a dalit. Guru tried hard to break these "brahminical" fetters.
It is for this very reason that the holy Langar pratha was started. Just to imbibe the feeling of equality amongst the followers !
Guru Granth Sahib is a living example of human equality.
Guru Sahiban said : Bahman khatri sud vais, updes chau warno ko sanjha;
"Ek Pita Ekas Ke Ham Barik"
"Manas ki jaat sabhai eko pehchanbo"
And those who perpetrate violence in the name of religion, Guru has clarified : Sach kaho sun leho sabhai , jin prem kiyo tin hi prabh payo"
Our Tenth Guru ended the debate on caste system saying : Name of the Sikh will end with "Singh" and that of a bibi with "kaur"
But we are so facinated with "tails" that we forgot the Hukm of the Lord personified.
The attack on the religious guru of Guru Ravidass Sabha signifies the extent to which many of our sikh people have fallen.
Very Well said, it is only when we step away from this micro- thinking we can see that we are all one Sikh community.
It is high time that Sikhs give up their Kirpan. Religions have to evolve and there is no point holding onto dumb dogmas which was the whole point behind the evolution of the Sikh religion anyways. The Kirpan culture is dangerous given that most of the overseas Gurudwaras celebrate terrorists as martyrs.
I request to all foreign goverment to against this to rapid action on all those comuninty which disturbed my punjab,, Evevryone know that this is those comuunity which was made big violence in punjab.. like please we request to all police force nd comuunity in foreighn please cleane this all militant sikh comunity babar khalsa and other etc.
This is on the front page of yahoo.com right now and could be up there for the next few hours.
Hello dear Dalits, if you think that by following sikh rituals, or by following sikh way of worship you become the sikhs equal to Jatt sikhs, you are totally ignorant. Sikh religion has failed to undo the caste system. It has miserably failed to defeat the caste system. Actually caste system has defeated the sikhism miserably. Can any body tell how many Jatt granthis, members of gurdwara prabandhak commettees and religious leaders married their sons and daughters with those of dalits?. Sikh religion is very week in the face of Hinduism who created caste system. I appeal all dalits to shun sikhism and become secular. Don't be fooled by the feeling that sikhism can get you respect from those who exploited you. Shun any religion that does not have enough power to force its followers to respect dalits with dignity. Over a long period of 500 years, the sikh religion has failed to undo the caste system and will continue to fail. If the virtue of a religion cannot be translated into practice, it is just a hollow drum being beaten by those who just want to look good without being actually good.
Nobody in the world takes so much pride in their “caste” or “creed” as our sikhs take in showing themselves as “Jatts”. They believe that “jatt” is an upper caste ! In this pursuit, they left everybody behind even the originators of this caste system, the brahmins ! They dont know that according to the caste system “jatts” are shudras also ! Throughout India, they are regarded as one of the most backward classes. Exception is Punjab and Haryana, where, by virtue of the lands they possess they have become materially rich. But then, Kambojs and Sainis also do well in these regions (oh !is it a diff matter altogether ?? ). The caste system has delved deep into their genes. Now a days, you will find thousands of Pandits with an open & broad mind but you will not find a single upper caste (jatt) who does not look down to those who belong to the lower strata of the society. What a pathetic situation.
Names of todays sikhs are :
D.S. Gill
B.S. Dhillon, S.S. Bhatia (you may never know whether he is Shyam Sunder Bhatia )…. the list is endless !
Sri Guru Harmandir Sahib has four main gates. They symbolises that they are for everyone including “dalits”. Infact, sikh religion was formed “for” the downtroddens. Guru Nanak Sahib sided with dalit bhai Lalo and said…neechai andar neech jaat… Nanak tin ke sang saath wadeyan seu kya reece”
His companion was a dalit. Guru tried hard to break these “brahminical” fetters.
It is for this very reason that the holy Langar pratha was started. Just to imbibe the feeling of equality amongst the followers !
Guru Granth Sahib is a living example of human equality.
Guru Sahiban said : Bahman khatri sud vais, updes chau warno ko sanjha;
“Ek Pita Ekas Ke Ham Barik”
“Manas ki jaat sabhai eko pehchanbo”
And those who perpetrate violence in the name of religion, Guru has clarified : Sach kaho sun leho sabhai , jin prem kiyo tin hi prabh payo”
Our Tenth Guru ended the debate on caste system saying : Name of the Sikh will end with “Singh” and that of a bibi with “kaur”
But we are so facinated with “tails” that we forgot the Hukm of the Lord personified.
The attack on the religious guru of Guru Ravidass Sabha signifies the extent to which many of our sikh people have fallen.
Very Well said, it is only when we step away from this micro- thinking we can see that we are all one Sikh community.
Why blame the caste system on Hindus? It is human nature. Which religion in the world does not have class or caste structure? Sikhs are human too…
It is better to understand one's limitations and to live within it.
As a sikh (belongs to Lower casts) I'm happy that they attacked so called gurus or saints (belongs to lower casts) but they deserved this cause they condemn the Sikh's Holy book Shri Guru Granth Sahin ji which is our God. They were trying to introduce new Holy book which include only Guru ravidas Ji's teachings and neglecting other sikh Gurs while Guru Granth Sahib ji gave equal space for all the Gurus, Saints and Bhagats including Guru Ravidas Ji but I would like to say this is because of castism culture in India and Punjab also, its really unfortunate that we are not able to under stand what is the God
WJKK WJKF, dear brothers and sisters,
as someone who converted (I use the term "inspired by" instead) to Sikhism I made the experience that there is one big fault in our view of those situations and esp. in the view of Non-Sikhs: There's a HUGE difference between Sikhism and Punjabi Culture! Those are and should be two different and SEPARATE entities! It is a sad fact and I hate to say this but instead of concentrating to create differences between us we have to concentrate on what unites us and makes us strong: The believe in One Eternal Formless Supreme Being and reading and listening to Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj.
Everything else is useless folklore going wrong. It is wrong to judge and I pray to Guru Jee for forgiveness but: Whoever commit this wrong and despicable acts in the name of Sikhism shouldn't call themselves Sikhs because they are not.
It is high time that Sikhs give up their Kirpan. Religions have to evolve and there is no point holding onto dumb dogmas which was the whole point behind the evolution of the Sikh religion anyways. The Kirpan culture is dangerous given that most of the overseas Gurudwaras celebrate terrorists as martyrs.
Wow, this horribly misses the point. The Kirpan is not something to be given up, nor does it represent any of the themes you project in your post. Oversimplifying the issue and blaming a core facet of Sikh religious philosophy is oversimplifies and misidentifies the problematic issues underlying this horrible event.
To those who say they are happy these men murdered another, I am truly saddened. Resistance to a philosophy or ideal does not justify the use of offensive force, particularly not in a place of worship (even if that place of worship is not a gurdwara by our formulation, and even if it is not a place of worship for Sikhs).
Perhaps an important underlying question is how we have promoted these kinds of divisions within a community that has tried unsuccessfully to be whole due to caste divisions.
This is on the front page of yahoo.com right now and could be up there for the next few hours.
Hello dear Dalits, if you think that by following sikh rituals, or by following sikh way of worship you become the sikhs equal to Jatt sikhs, you are totally ignorant. Sikh religion has failed to undo the caste system. It has miserably failed to defeat the caste system. Actually caste system has defeated the sikhism miserably. Can any body tell how many Jatt granthis, members of gurdwara prabandhak commettees and religious leaders married their sons and daughters with those of dalits?. Sikh religion is very week in the face of Hinduism who created caste system. I appeal all dalits to shun sikhism and become secular. Don’t be fooled by the feeling that sikhism can get you respect from those who exploited you. Shun any religion that does not have enough power to force its followers to respect dalits with dignity. Over a long period of 500 years, the sikh religion has failed to undo the caste system and will continue to fail. If the virtue of a religion cannot be translated into practice, it is just a hollow drum being beaten by those who just want to look good without being actually good.
Sikh Gurus clearly showed that every human has to answer to the Universal God regardless of his/her origins. There is no place for false pride in sikhism. Having said that, sociologically, caste is a support group and Organizational System. Millions of People are born into that, and use it for support and comfort. I dont see why both views cannot co-exist. Eradication of caste system is not important, as much as eradication of False Pride and Ignorance. In the eyes of the Guru all castes are equal, as much as being Austrian, American or Indian…
Why blame the caste system on Hindus? It is human nature. Which religion in the world does not have class or caste structure? Sikhs are human too…
It is better to understand one’s limitations and to live within it.
As a sikh (belongs to Lower casts) I’m happy that they attacked so called gurus or saints (belongs to lower casts) but they deserved this cause they condemn the Sikh’s Holy book Shri Guru Granth Sahin ji which is our God. They were trying to introduce new Holy book which include only Guru ravidas Ji’s teachings and neglecting other sikh Gurs while Guru Granth Sahib ji gave equal space for all the Gurus, Saints and Bhagats including Guru Ravidas Ji but I would like to say this is because of castism culture in India and Punjab also, its really unfortunate that we are not able to under stand what is the God
WJKK WJKF, dear brothers and sisters,
as someone who converted (I use the term “inspired by” instead) to Sikhism I made the experience that there is one big fault in our view of those situations and esp. in the view of Non-Sikhs: There’s a HUGE difference between Sikhism and Punjabi Culture! Those are and should be two different and SEPARATE entities! It is a sad fact and I hate to say this but instead of concentrating to create differences between us we have to concentrate on what unites us and makes us strong: The believe in One Eternal Formless Supreme Being and reading and listening to Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj.
Everything else is useless folklore going wrong. It is wrong to judge and I pray to Guru Jee for forgiveness but: Whoever commit this wrong and despicable acts in the name of Sikhism shouldn’t call themselves Sikhs because they are not.
attack on the sant baba rama nand ji was very herted for dera premis of punjab this is very miseable matter i tell ton all of dera premis make situation better of punjab i hope all of dera premis under stand about thought of me
Wow, this horribly misses the point. The Kirpan is not something to be given up, nor does it represent any of the themes you project in your post. Oversimplifying the issue and blaming a core facet of Sikh religious philosophy is oversimplifies and misidentifies the problematic issues underlying this horrible event.
To those who say they are happy these men murdered another, I am truly saddened. Resistance to a philosophy or ideal does not justify the use of offensive force, particularly not in a place of worship (even if that place of worship is not a gurdwara by our formulation, and even if it is not a place of worship for Sikhs).
Perhaps an important underlying question is how we have promoted these kinds of divisions within a community that has tried unsuccessfully to be whole due to caste divisions.
WHY DONT SIKHS GIVE UP THEIR KIRPANS ?
Gurfateh Ji 1
Someone called a HINDU has written that the Sikhs should give up their Kirpans. In 1984 when the Hindu mobs came to drag and burn alive the Sikh families across India the indian police failed to protect them. If every Sikh family had 3 foot kirpans or other modern weapons then there would have been a different story.
The indian police will take side with anybody who is out there to attack the Gurus Sikhi.Its about time we go back to our teachings and live with kirpans at our side , we the Sikhs are on our own in India !!
We the Sikhs are not on our own! We have Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji always present with us. We have teachings and bani of Sri Guru Garanth Sahib ji with us. We are not alone. We only have to believe in almighty and do Ardass for the chardi kala of the sikh quam. Long live khalsa…..
A very sad and shocking incident.
~~~~~~~~~~***~~~~~~~~~~
Jab Tun Aaya Jagat Mein, Log Hanse Tu Roye
Aise Karni Na Kari, Pache Hanse Sab Koye
~ Sant Kabir
~~~~~~~~~~***~~~~~~~~~~
When you came into this world, the world smiled while you cried. Do not leave this world with everybody laughing at the thought of your death!
TO ALL THE HOLLOW AND FAKE SANT/BABA FOLLOWERS:
" Agya bhai Akal ki tabhi chalayo Panth Sabh Sikhan ko hukam hai Guru manyo Granth Guru Granth……."
Treat anybody other than the Guru Granth Sahib Ji as Guru then you no longer are a Sikh so take off the turban and stop the deception.I pray and hope the brave Singhs remain in Chardi Kalan !!
attack on the sant baba rama nand ji was very herted for dera premis of punjab this is very miseable matter i tell ton all of dera premis make situation better of punjab i hope all of dera premis under stand about thought of me
As i Always feel about the world as I'm actualy in "The
matrix" and finding myself in the middle "where I'm" Is
the ? ?s .
this is true that upper n lower casts had differences
being from lower cast I actualy can tell how it feels wen
someone unwillingly hurt my feelings…….
bt these saint or gurus are not acceptable in
the sikhism.
these are jst like bussiness of more intelligent ppl.
rich polticians are quite cause they dont care abt it are
worried of their votes..
we sikhs know only one God whc is the truth
Shri Guru
Granth Sahib Ji
we should avoid these ppl.. . .
i can't believe this event is as a result of caste. i still believe that the truth is yet to surface…whether the 'Baba' challeneged the Tenets of Gurmat of did beadbi of Guroo Granth Sahib Jee, i don't know…lets wait
its ridiculous that some members are saying we need to get rid of our kirpans, when it is a gift blessed to us by our Guroo Sahib.
WHY DONT SIKHS GIVE UP THEIR KIRPANS ?
Gurfateh Ji 1
Someone called a HINDU has written that the Sikhs should give up their Kirpans. In 1984 when the Hindu mobs came to drag and burn alive the Sikh families across India the indian police failed to protect them. If every Sikh family had 3 foot kirpans or other modern weapons then there would have been a different story.
The indian police will take side with anybody who is out there to attack the Gurus Sikhi.Its about time we go back to our teachings and live with kirpans at our side , we the Sikhs are on our own in India !!
All are equal in front of His Eyes,there is no hindu no muslim no sikh no jew in his court.We are no different from animals if we are fighting each other.If someone will offened our gurus or throw a stone at our temples,gurudwaras,mosques or our holy scriptures we go on a killing spree.These churches,temples,gurudwaras,holy books which are made by a human have more value than the life of innocent humans which are made by God Himself.These speaks how hypocrite we are.
We the Sikhs are not on our own! We have Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji always present with us. We have teachings and bani of Sri Guru Garanth Sahib ji with us. We are not alone. We only have to believe in almighty and do Ardass for the chardi kala of the sikh quam. Long live khalsa…..
A very sad and shocking incident.
~~~~~~~~~~***~~~~~~~~~~
Jab Tun Aaya Jagat Mein, Log Hanse Tu Roye
Aise Karni Na Kari, Pache Hanse Sab Koye
~ Sant Kabir
~~~~~~~~~~***~~~~~~~~~~
When you came into this world, the world smiled while you cried. Do not leave this world with everybody laughing at the thought of your death!
TO ALL THE HOLLOW AND FAKE SANT/BABA FOLLOWERS:
” Agya bhai Akal ki tabhi chalayo Panth Sabh Sikhan ko hukam hai Guru manyo Granth Guru Granth…….”
Treat anybody other than the Guru Granth Sahib Ji as Guru then you no longer are a Sikh so take off the turban and stop the deception.I pray and hope the brave Singhs remain in Chardi Kalan !!
I pray and hope the brave Singhs remain in Chardi Kalan !!
Ravi Singh
It is nevertheless wrong to just kill. There was no means of defense, no means of attack.
There's no just cause for creating mayhem and killing humans beings, no matter what we think of their opinions.
Yes Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj is our Living Guru and nothing, NOTHING can change that. Trying to make people believe by violent means is wrong and against Guru Jee Maharajs' Teachings.
There's no justification for this cowardly and un-Sikh act.
Again: There was no physical threat, no means of defense and violence.
Those who always advertise our martial heritage with Teachings of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee should read ALL his bani in which they will see that Guru Jee proclaimes violence for defensive actions only when ALL PEACEFUL MEANS failed.
Read and understand. Don't act out of ego and self-justification! It will hurt the panth.
As i Always feel about the world as I’m actualy in “The
matrix” and finding myself in the middle “where I’m” Is
the ? ?s .
this is true that upper n lower casts had differences
being from lower cast I actualy can tell how it feels wen
someone unwillingly hurt my feelings…….
bt these saint or gurus are not acceptable in
the sikhism.
these are jst like bussiness of more intelligent ppl.
rich polticians are quite cause they dont care abt it are
worried of their votes..
we sikhs know only one God whc is the truth
Shri Guru
Granth Sahib Ji
we should avoid these ppl.. . .
i can’t believe this event is as a result of caste. i still believe that the truth is yet to surface…whether the ‘Baba’ challeneged the Tenets of Gurmat of did beadbi of Guroo Granth Sahib Jee, i don’t know…lets wait
its ridiculous that some members are saying we need to get rid of our kirpans, when it is a gift blessed to us by our Guroo Sahib.
All are equal in front of His Eyes,there is no hindu no muslim no sikh no jew in his court.We are no different from animals if we are fighting each other.If someone will offened our gurus or throw a stone at our temples,gurudwaras,mosques or our holy scriptures we go on a killing spree.These churches,temples,gurudwaras,holy books which are made by a human have more value than the life of innocent humans which are made by God Himself.These speaks how hypocrite we are.
The core problem is religion itself, the opium of the masses. Until people get it into their heads that their is no proof for the existence of god then don't believe. Does anbody here believe in unicorns? No I think not. People in India and the rest of the word need to shun belief and follow science and reason.
The argument against wearing the Kirpan in public logically.
Kirpan – A blade
Blade – Can stab people
People who get stabbed die. Nevermind what Kirpan represents, in the wrong hands it can KILL PEOPLE. No people regardless of their religion should be above the law of the lands.
nffc86,
You stated:
So let me see, if I can follow the argument
also – never mind that the death was caused by gunshot wounds, but I guess we will exclude data that doesn't fit our hypothesis
Scissors = a blade
Blade = can stab people
People who get stabbed die. Therefore, ban ALL public access to scissors. No people regardless of their [their need to cut paper] should be above the law of the lands.
I pray and hope the brave Singhs remain in Chardi Kalan !!
Ravi Singh
It is nevertheless wrong to just kill. There was no means of defense, no means of attack.
There’s no just cause for creating mayhem and killing humans beings, no matter what we think of their opinions.
Yes Guru Granth Sahib Jee Maharaj is our Living Guru and nothing, NOTHING can change that. Trying to make people believe by violent means is wrong and against Guru Jee Maharajs’ Teachings.
There’s no justification for this cowardly and un-Sikh act.
Again: There was no physical threat, no means of defense and violence.
Those who always advertise our martial heritage with Teachings of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee should read ALL his bani in which they will see that Guru Jee proclaimes violence for defensive actions only when ALL PEACEFUL MEANS failed.
Read and understand. Don’t act out of ego and self-justification! It will hurt the panth.
To those who are trying to set punjab on fire without even knowing the reality about all this.Is there even a single person who knows what exactly happened and why? When u come to know what has actually happened and you have a reason to set public property on fire then go for it, but the way people are reacting right now they are trying to prove how barbarian they are.Dont wanna say anything else but at least give it a second thought what u actually doing right now.
The core problem is religion itself, the opium of the masses. Until people get it into their heads that their is no proof for the existence of god then don’t believe. Does anbody here believe in unicorns? No I think not. People in India and the rest of the word need to shun belief and follow science and reason.
The argument against wearing the Kirpan in public logically.
Kirpan – A blade
Blade – Can stab people
People who get stabbed die. Nevermind what Kirpan represents, in the wrong hands it can KILL PEOPLE. No people regardless of their religion should be above the law of the lands.
My first thoughts on this are quite passionate and filled with disgust, anger and pain.
So I'll allow time to compose myself before speaking on it most directly, and how this links into what I see and hear in the Sikh community in Britain, where this kind of violence has been brewing for a long time now.
I will just say this though.
This is major news across Europe and people who have never heard of, or hardly knew anything about Sikhs before have been listening to their radio, reading their newspaper and watching TV news over this incident. And this could severely damage the campaign to protect the right to wear kirpan in Europe.
One last thing .. I am only surprised it happened in Austria. I have been expecting murderous violence inside a Gurudwara to occur in England for the last few years.
nffc86,
You stated:
So let me see, if I can follow the argument
also – never mind that the death was caused by gunshot wounds, but I guess we will exclude data that doesn’t fit our hypothesis
Scissors = a blade
Blade = can stab people
People who get stabbed die. Therefore, ban ALL public access to scissors. No people regardless of their [their need to cut paper] should be above the law of the lands.
WARNING TO ALL:
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all the killings fighting and arguments for what?on the name of god.i sometime wish that there was no GOD.if there is GOD he must weeping looking at things people are perpetrating on his name.
It wil be interesting to see the names and origin of the perpetrators. By all accounts they were all apprehended by the sangat and some of them are in a serious condition in hospital.
Either way they failed to escape, and we will know who they are and where they come from. As a British Sikh I would be interested to know if any of them are from England.
To those who are trying to set punjab on fire without even knowing the reality about all this.Is there even a single person who knows what exactly happened and why? When u come to know what has actually happened and you have a reason to set public property on fire then go for it, but the way people are reacting right now they are trying to prove how barbarian they are.Dont wanna say anything else but at least give it a second thought what u actually doing right now.
watch my words.
unfortunately this sort of violence is going to take place in Gurudwaras in United Kingdom soon.
sarbhat da bhala kyon nai mangdey assi