Does this look like 6,000 people?
You can repeat your lies….This one comes from the Times of India:
The organisers claimed a figure of 25,000, but the Scotland Yard put the number at 6,000. The ‘Remembrance March’ began at Hyde Park and concluded at Trafalgar Square.[link]
But the truth will get out and you will look all the more stupid for it. Does this look like 6,000? Seems much closer to the 25-35K that was claimed. Sikhs have not forgotten. Until there is justice, Sikhs will never forget.
We will strive for justice for the innocent, such as Professor Bhullar (Watch this powerful video from the WSO’s Annual Parliamentary Dinner; on Professor Bhullar cue to 23:40); we will strive for justice against the guilty.
We live in Bakersfield; we live in Brampton; we live in Birmingham. We still yearn for Bathinda. Our brothers and sisters in London showed it this weekend. Let our brothers and sisters in Punjab know that we are still connected; we will still raise our voices; we still remember.
In Toronto, Lions will roar. A Nation Never Forgets.
23 Responses to “Does this look like 6,000 people?”
Definitely a lot more than 6,000 people!
They doesn't know how to count..that;s why 27 years have been passed…….
This is the Indian Governments way to say only a handful of Sikhs are making a song and dance, when thousands and thousands are! Why are the millions of Sikhs in Panjab not doing the same?! are we in the west alone in the call for Khalistan???!
FATEH JI!
its a sad shame that although all the facts are in the open for all to see the truth for what it is some parties are still convincing themselves that they can brainwash all into believing the hogwash they claim to be the facts! its obvious from this picture that the march was attended by a greater number than a mere 6000..so who are they trying to fool?? ..waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh
Acknoledge it, apologize, provide justice, don't do it again, CORRECT IT. Thats it!!!
No need for these adolescent games "6000" WHY???? say you don't know Times of India -actually it doesnt even matter how many more or less people came out it doesn't make 84 more or less bad it was a terrible time for a lot of Sikhs -a lot of "Indians" 20 million of them___better yet join for humanity sake!!!
I was discussing this phenomenon with a friend that is a frequent commenter on this website. He concluded that in India, there are always disgruntled or disadvantaged groups that elite groups can turn against (usually minority) groups such as Muslims, Christians, and at one point, Sikhs with nationalist, chauvinist, etc ideologies as a safety valve to divert their frustration with their socioeconomic standing away from the state (he also pointed out that this has permeated politics in Punjab).
In India, looks like this strategy results in a lot of conspiracy, attribution of dissatisfaction to foreign elements (see the article's discussion of the ISI links), and occasional outbursts of violence. Look at the way India's independence movements progressed: they attempted to superimpose some sort of cultural and political unity on a space that is anything but diverse. This short term strategy of "strategic essentialism" and identity construction made for a good heart-warming story during the campaign for independence, but might have had effects on India's ability to tolerate meaningful diversity in my opinion.
Normally, you'd expect a free press to be able to challenge such outlandish speculation. In India, though, my friend noted, you have a politicized, but not a critical press (maybe partially a legacy of restrictions on the press that spoke up during times of crisis?). For the most part, the government's kool-aid will be consumed without meaningful dissent in the press. It's up to SOMEONE, whether they're in India or the diaspora, to create some sort of widely circulated publication or news report that is capable of objectively reporting such events, challenging assertions that aren't true, and giving those in Punjab the ability to make conclusions based on facts that mirror reality.
Sorry, I meant on a space that is anything but homogenous in the second paragraph
Sikhs have always been a disgruntled group,however they always managed to compromise in the past.i.e. during the misls Kapur Singh got nawabi and there was peace for a while,same with Jassa Singh Ahluwalia.Heck even the 10 guru compromised with Bahadur shah and got royal robes and a stipend.It is when they do not compromise they get trampled and then they start blaming others and never looking inwards.Blue star didnot start untill the sikh leadership political or otherwise gave ultimatum to a duly and legally elected govt.that they will stop the movement of grains,goods,services &other activities by force.They never wanted to compromise and never wanted to avoid armed conforontation,well they got what they wanted and a bloody nose.Even when 10th guru's kids & family was destroyed/uprooted he left room for talks,sikhs in 1984 went beyond their guru and got what was coming to them.Any man can fight for any concievable reason,it takes a states man to achieve and maintain peace,which that clown as u rightfully put it,had no concept of.I ought to know i was a member of last group of negotiators.
This is an incredibly strange analysis of how 1984 played out. I don't think I even need to comment on it for the flaws in your reasoning to become apparent.
what is even more disturbing is that Mohinder Singh claims to have been “a member of last group of negotiators”, for the GOI or the Sikhs, I wonder …….
[Admin Note: Please change your handle, and also don’t use multiple handles on the blog that’s grounds for being banned]
It's also just factually incorrect. The June Ghallughara had been planned over a year in advance the Indian Army had practiced on a replica in UP over 8 months in advance. My own grandfather, a decorated WWII soldier, was beat and had his pagh removed and used to tie his hands behind his back all by the same army he had once served. And this was far from the 'so-called incorrigibles' in Amritsar. This was at Gurdwara Dukhniwaran Sahib, Patiala and the same scene was repeated in some 37 other historic Gurdwaras throughout the Punjab.
Mohinder Singh's claims are farcical at best – especially that the Sikh side would not compromise. Is there anything the Shiromani Akali Dal has not been willing to compromise for the past 60+ years.
Oh how the internet allows people to claim to be anyone. Fortunately (or unfortunately for Mohinder SIngh) their lack of knowledge that has been in the public record and corroborated by many gives them away.
@JSA – I think you nailed it – This short term strategy of "strategic essentialism" and identity construction made for a good heart-warming story during the campaign for independence, but might have had effects on India's ability to tolerate meaningful diversity in my opinion.
One is to merely parrot slogans of 'unity in diversity.' If you don't, you will be labeled an enemy of the state and the state will unleash its terror.
in some distant future there will be no borders – until we get there Khalistan is a must – just like in an ideal world there would be no restaurants – free food, fruit trees lining all the streets etc.(langar + ruhani food for soul – Gurbani) until we get there vegetarian restaurants are ok – so yes someday there will be no borders, but for now, while borders exist, we must have our Khalistan – with the correct borders – a sthan no one ever dare even think of messing with – it's the only solution -one that would finally bring some justice to our cause – whether this occurs in my lifetime or not, i don't care, but i know beyond the shadow of any possible doubt that Khalistan will become a reality sooner or later – a reality that will benefit all of humanity and indeed all of Nature: Khalistan Zindabad!!!
– anyone not in favour of Khalistan is a traitor and/or coward and has no right whatsoever to call themselves a Sikh.
On the night of 4th june at 2200 hrs,a car belonging to Raghunandan Lal Bhatia picked up Amrik Singh & H S Sandhu and took them to R L Bhatia's house.The negotiations went on till330am in the morning,after that they were dropped at the front of the golden temple.They were given time untill1700 hrs to placate JSB,later this time was extended to 1900 hrs.It is on the record and minutes of this can be found in homeministry archives,however when no answers were forthcoming and last attempts failed only then OP BLUESTAR commenced at 2230hrs and the rest is history.BTW RLBhatia was a very good aquaintence of JSB and HSSandhu,old election posters can still be found in amritsar declaring RLBhatia has support of JSBHINderanwala,and RLBhatia was old congressman and minister of state for indira gandhi.check ur facts and ur history before blaming the messanger.
That car ^ belonging to Raghunandan lal Bhatia must've been really big and really really fast because I take it also visited the 40 other historic gurdwaras attacked during operation bluestar on the night of 4th June 1984. No ??? Or perhaps the Indians though the Sikhs, being very sinister and clever at the same time, had perfected the art of human cloning and by evil scientific means had made 40 clones of Sant Bhindranwale and rather cleverly (and needless to say sinisterly) placed a Bhindranwale clone in each and every historic gurdwara in Punjab thus necessitating an attack on them also. No ???? And what of the quarter million Sikhs (according to human rights organisations) that were killed during operation Woodrose. Was that very evil and sinister deliberately come back alive as a ghost and hide in the bodies of those Sikhs ? Did Raghunandan Lal Bhatia, and his magic car, plead with him to depart from those bodies. He, being evil, refused and so India was left with no choice but to kill ? No ???? Whichever way you look at it, India and Indians are either extraordinarily evil or extraordinarily stupid. I happen to think they are both.
@Mohinder – It is one thing to 'blame the messenger', but the problem is that you are claiming to be someone that you are not.
First off, all eye-witness testimony says firing began on June 1. I am completely aware that backdoor channels would have existed, but the fact that two of the most highly visible members of the inner circle should leave at 11pm and no one report it? It is complete fancy.
Your claim about the minutes at the Home Ministry is just as laughable, because there is no way to access these records. I have had a friend that is a research scholar in Canada attempt to gain any access to this information (at that time over 26 years old) and they were told it was still highly sensitive and classified. Hence your claims are completely unsubstantiated.
The GOI would have played up this attempt at last-minute negotiations in their attempts to character assassinate Jarnail Singh, but they didn't. They attempted other means, but they largely fell on deaf ears for the vast majority of Sikhs.
Also you are completely changing your story now. First you said the reason was for the recalcitrance of Jarnail Singh on the issue of the Dharm Yudh Morcha. The Dharm Yudh Morcha was led by Longowal, NOT Jarnail Singh as you claim. Jarnail Singh affirmed Longowal's leadership even in late May. So as you claim to have been a 'negotiator' it shows that you are either completely dishonest (in claiming some sort of insider information that you were not privy to) or utterly incompetent (as you didn't know who to negotiate with).
You also make a farcical claim that the Akali Dal was attempting an illegal 'non-violent' protest against a 'duly and legally elected govt'. Only a complete sycophant of the Congress Party would ever make such a bold claim that the imposition of President's Rule in Punjab and the dismissal of the ruling party in order to bring the Congress to the fore was a 'legal and duly elected government'. Such doublespeak would make even Orwell cringe.
And as @blighty singh rightly pointed out, Jarnail Singh was NOT at the other Gurdwaras. My grandfather, a decorated Indian Army officer, was in Patiala, and told me the story. The Indian army had stationed soldiers around the Gurdwara complex. Many were smoking bidis and cigarettes. They flung them on the gurdwara premises challenging the Sikhs to respond. For the most part people were upset, but tried to act as if it wasn't happening. 4-5 young school boys started throwing rocks at the army. A few army soldiers opened fire sending chills down everyone's spine. Locals attempted to start a dialogue about what occurred and they were rebuked. More Sikhs from the local area began coming to the Gurdwara grounds. The soldiers started harassing especially the local youth. Some more Sikhs started throwing rocks. This time the army opened fire and moved in. The slaughter began….
@ Mohinder – yes the internet breeds anonymity and it can be a great thing sometimes as a release for opinions, but there is an issue where people such as yourself are claiming some sort of authority and legitimacy when they have none nor deserve any. If you have such records as you claim, upload them online for all to see. Otherwise, stop your dishonesty.
@Jodha president's rule is completely legal under article356 of the indian constitution,as well as as the fact that govt. in new delhi was duly elected & legal.The deal that was being negotiated was that JSB & his supporters would give up/not surrender,he was to be taken to the temp army hqs.There was to be no arrest of him,however the pending cases against his followers would proceed.Since there were cases pending cases against Amrik Singh & HS Sandhu there vested interests were one obstacle,with all due respect to the hurt feelings later one thing everyone forgets is there was no criminal case pending against JSB.There were two cases 1 against JSB &1 against Longowal for inticement/communal and they were guarenteed to be withdrawn.Whether I have any legitimacy or not I am not worried about it,but think like I have said before any body can fight for any reason it takes a statesman/woman to negotiate & achieve peace.After 27 yrs all parties involved got what they wanted,but as some of the blogs suggest there is no peace,may Sikhs should start looking for the players who resisted these efforts instead of waalowing in anger & self pity.
@Mohinder – Yes sir, legal, but not very democratic. In Egypt's constitution, President Mubarak had emergency powers (since 1967!!). Very legal indeed!
Yes you have no legitimacy or credibility. I am glad we have established that.
It does indeed take a statesman/woman to achieve peace. Indira Gandhi and her sycophants were definitely not statesmen/stateswomen.
After 27 years, who got what they wanted? Is Chandigarh Punjab's capital? Is Punjab in control of its own river waters? Have any of the state officials that orchestrated the genocide in the streets of Delhi been brought to justice? Have the army officials and police officers that committed extra-judicial killings been brought to justice? etc. etc. The list goes on.
A new generation is not interested in wallowing or self-pity. They are fired up for freedom and justice.
Again I believe you are a farce with a poor knowledge of even the basic facts. Very easy to prove your identity Mohinder Singh – since the government allows you to act as a mouthpiece on Sikh blogs, upload the documents you claim to have.
This concludes my discussion with this imposter.
@Jodha the emotional outbursts do not change the facts.Ur friend in canada is right all the papers regarding talks etc leading upto OPBS r sealed under Official secrets act,they will not be released untill the Govt of the day decides it is appropriate in future.As for chandigarh it was never part of trifurcated punjab,it was part of punjab before 1966 and u have akalis to thank for losing it.Sutlej waters were part of punjab before 1966,after that sutlej does not originate or end in punjab,it just passes thru it.Waters given to haryana are the residual waters after creating/carving the states of haryana & himachal pardesh.Again u will have to thank the akalis.Before doing any damage in punjab during monsoon,it wrecks havock in HP so they have the first claim as per distorted riparian rights,espoused by certain sections of sikhs.As for younger generation they are fed bunch of myths & lies,it takes coldheartedness to make public policy rather than inticing a section of public with religious emotional outbursts.I donot know when did Sikh public became so attached to violence,intolerance or gullible.This ends the discussion.
I don't think you guys have been to enough demonstrations. At most that is 10,000 people. Certainly not 25,000. I would agree with the police if they said 6,000 people as I was at an anti-racism rally last November in London and that was of a similar size on the photographs and was said to be 5,000 people.
I was also present at the anti-cuts demo in London.
From your comments, it also seems you have a vested interest to downplay the numbers. Crowd guestimation is always hazy at best. A single picture doesn't capture everyone and the multitudes disappear in the horizon in this one. Most of the people that were there put the number far larger. Your certitude of a lower figure, at a demonstration that you did not attend, suggests someone far more interested in ideology.
^ The next demonstration you attend Jags should, I suggest, be the ones calling for greater 'numeracy' and 'literacy' skills in the UK. If you possessed these skills you would have seen that the Police said it was 25,000……..but India magically got rid of 20,000 from the police estimate and gave Indians a figure of 6000 people. You also might wanna read some books on photography, followed by books on real life. It has been said,…..although I don't know whether its true or not……that when you look at things on a photograph there are actually objects in existence to the north, west, east and south of the photograph that didn't make it onto the photograph. Indeed if you could fit everything onto one photograph it ceases being a photograph and becomes an aerial shot from a satellite in space.
You may well want to consider subscribing to the 'Times of India' . They specialise in catering for people like you.