Sikh Family In Texas Victims Of Police Brutality
UPDATE: If you are outraged by this incident, please CALL THE HARRIS COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE (TEXAS) @ (713-755-6044) and let Harris County Sheriff Tommy Thomas know how you feel. These Officers need to be reprimanded and we as a community need to push the Sheriff’s Office to act. You can also contact Houston Mayor Bill White at (832-393-1000) or mayor@cityofhouston.net.
The night before Thanksgiving you are robbed of your sense of security and $15,000 of your home belongings AND THEN you are robbed of your humanity by Sheriff’s Officers who promise to protect you. All this happens in your own home …
The Tagore family in Texas were criminalized and terrorized because of their Sikh articles of faith after calling in to report a burglary in their home.
Ramandeep Singh Tagore says,
“That night we were actually robbed twice … Once by the actual burglars, who we don’t know who they were, and secondly by the Sheriff’s Department, who we knew who they were.”
Once the Sheriff’s Officers had arrived in their home they started focusing on Kawaljeet Kaur’s kirpan and told her: “You can’t wear that”, she felt like she was being treated “ … like a criminal in my own home … “. Kawaljeet Kaur [Ramandeep Singh Tagore’s sister] told the Houston News that “I didn’t appreciate the way that I was treated that day … I’m a human and I would have expected to be treated like a human.” Kawaljeet verbalized her feelings and constitutional right to practice her faith to the Officers. Their response was pushing her out of her house, having her sit in the middle of the street, and handcuffing her.
Ramandeep said to Harpreet Kaur of Sach Productions (watch the video below for more in-depth reporting)
“first we are calm and then the aggression … brutality type of thing … pushing and shoving is starting when the cops get here I mean their acting like thugs … if we are civilizingly dealing with them then why do you have to come push me and shove me when we’re trying to talk to you … is it because I look different or something.”
Manjit Kaur, Ramandeep’s mother, felt: “Dekhoo ik taan saade ghar robbery hoyi hai ..tusi lok saadi help karan aaye aan k saanu arrest karan aaye aan” (Look there has been a robbery in our house … have you people [Sheriff's Officers] come to help us or arrest us?)
Soon after this conversation with the Sheriff’s officers, Ramandeep, his mother, sister, and cousin are handcuffed.
The officers put Ramandeep and his mother in separate patrol cars and driveaway, while his sister sits in the middle of the street handcuffed and his cousin is standing handcuffed in the middle of the driveway.
One of the things that upset Ramandeep the most is:
“ … I am a young guy, I can take it … I have bruises on my hand because of the handcuff and all that … I can take it … but for them to do that to my sister … to my mother who you know is in her 60s … I mean how far do you want to go … they are coming into our house and terrorizing now and using this kind of language …”
Ultimately, he asks: “What does religion have to do with the burglary that I have called in?”
It seems as though religion had everything to do with it. He remembers one poignant moment when he saw the “face of racism” in its most hurtful and discriminatory form:
“ … I was sitting in the back of the patrol car and there is a cop standing outside of that and I could still hear them and they brought my sister in with handcuffs and they put her on the floor in the middle of the street … one of them asks her did you hear about the bombings in Bombay … wow this is how the mind-process of individuals who are doing this stuff works …”
Police brutality based on racial/religious profiling is unfortunately common police. We know of horrible cases of police profiling Black men. It also happens often with Punjabi and Latino males along with turbaned Sikh men. A lot of these cases happen when they are pulled over when driving. But now we see it happening in Sikhs own homes where mothers and sisters are also being attacked for practicing Sikhi.
A new-blog has been created to document and take action against Police Brutality On Sikhs across the world. Check it out and report incidents of these crimes.
The Sheriff’s Department needs to take action on this issue immediately. An apology would just be the beginning. Honestly, how threatening can a 60-something year old Auntie be to Sheriff’s Officers that they need to handcuff her and put her in a SEPARATE patrol car. It’s not her; it’s their perception of her family’s faith.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9143120838984511550
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has anything happened to the police officers that were involved in this?
Nice post. Thank you for the info. Keep it up.
Harnek,
I don’t know if anything happened to the Officers yet.
I do know that there is a push among concerned Sikhs for all of us to “Call The Cops” in Harris County (Texas) tomorrow morning (Monday). You will find below the message that was sent out.
Tim …
… we hope you continue to visit us!
Nothing has been done to reprimand these officers of their duty. I live in the Houston area and know the Tagore family very well.
As sad as it is to say – we as Sikhs need to come together and call the proper authorities in the Houston area so that justice is served. You can visit http://policebrutalityonsikhs.blogspot.com to get information as to what authorities need to be contacted.
I did get a call back from the Harris County Sheriff-elect, Adrian Garcia about an hour ago. He actually called me directly from his cell phone to apologize and insisted that his new administration will not tolerate behavior like this. Let’s see what happens – make sure you take some time out and call!
I tried calling and it seemed to go full circle. I called the number listed, but finally the person willing to respond was the Police Spokesman listed in the article – Lt. Legg – 713-755-3647. They assured me that the police would look into the matter. I attempted to call the mayor’s office and they said that it did not fall within their jurisdiction. However, from the merry-go-round of transferred calls they put me threw, few people in the various departments are even aware of the incident, which seems to indicate that the Sikh response has been fairly tepid.
[Was there really a point to your comment bdb? Deleted......Admin Singh]
Very distressing. My thoughts are with the Tagore family. Hopefully there will be a meaningful investigation of what occurred with real consequences for any wrongdoing. The more media attention that is given to the issue, the more pressure there will be on the police to conduct a thorough and fair inquiry into this matter, and the more likely it is that the Tagore’s grievances will be truly addressed.
Incidentally, I visited the police brutality blog, and noticed something interesting — specifically, Sach Productions’ use of the phrase “a leading Sikh media organization.” In addition, SALDEF usually leads its press releases with “the oldest and largest Sikh American civil rights and advocacy organization in the United States[.]” Is such boasting really necessary?
please educate US policemen and other law enforces ,by pictures and clips, about the difference between arabs/muslims and sikhs
Raveesh, I am am an Indian and I still have trouble segregating a Sikh from a Muslim as they look the same and dress in a similar fashion how can you expect a foreign cop being able to distinguish between them?
Can you tell a difference between a Chinese, Korean, Thai and a Japanese?
Yes, John I can! And if you spend time with them, you will be able to as well.
All peoples of the world are equal
The Guru Granth Sahib promotes the message of equality of all beings and at the same time state that Sikh believers "obtain the supreme status" (SSGS, Page 446). Discrimination of all types is strictly forbidden based on the Sikh tenet Fatherhood of God which states that no one should be reckoned low or high, stating that instead believers should –“reckon the entire mankind as One” (Akal Ustat, 15.85).
Sri Guru Granth Sahib promotes the concept of equality by highlighting the fact that we are made of the same flesh, blood and bone and we have the same light of God with us – Soul . Our building bricks are the same:—-
SGGS Page 272 Full Shabad
The God-conscious being is always unstained, like the sun, which gives its comfort and warmth to all.
The God-conscious being looks upon all alike, like the wind, which blows equally upon the king and the poor beggar
At the onset, I was also pained learning what Ramandeep and his family had to face but since I am a Punjabi myself (mona) and naturalized American citizen and now living in Germany, I decided to look in to the matter differently and finally had my own version and the answers to Ramandeep's ill treatment.
Now pay attention to my following points:
a) When Sheriff entered Ramandeep's premises, he found a masked man ( with Ramandeeps 80% face hidden behind his huge Paggadi, turban, and facial hair) greetings him so he asked Raman to furnish his ID. Raman was incensed with this demand as he was mentally still living in India and that too in Punjab where being a Sikh is a way of life. In the eyes of the Sheriff who was on the crime scene it was a hostile scene to start with as he was in Texas and in his country people who looked or wore attire like Ramandeep, were terrorists ( Osama and a Sikh can be easily confused – only, Osama looks sedated and less aggressive). Ramandeep tauntingly asked him if he wanted to stay out or considering coming inside where his ID papers were? This was the beginning of the relationship which got further aggravated when Raman's sister appeared.
b) Kawaljeet Kaur might have been a perfect normal sardarni if she was in Punjab, India but in Texas she was looking like a Muslim suicide bomber armed with a dagger ! Kawaljeet was rebuked immediately by the cop who told her that she couldn't be wearing a dagger to which she retorted that it was her religion she was practicing and she needed that for justice?? Hello???? What Justice? She needed Police help for catching the cop and not brandishing the knife, even when it was holstered, to demand justice? She got in to argument over the issue and refused to relinquish her knife. It became an issue for the cop and when you are in the US the last thing you do is to take on a cop on duty ! Now entered Ramandeep's father and mother wearing their cute Kirpans and to this the office called for a back up by releasing code 20 (officer needs back up call ) and his aides arrived. The whole affair snowballed to landing of Tagores behind bars.
This is a perfect case of Indians who do not let go their idiosyncrasies that are offensive to foreign people and who insist on living their own way of life in the west. Tagores knew very well that Kirpan in the west means a weapon and brandishing in the presence of a cop could be misrepresenting the motives.
I think Ramandeep should fold tents on this issue and make sure he doesn't run in to similar problem ever again and it is the country of that Sheriff for which he has shed blood (Sheriff was a decorated war hero) and Raman still thinks he is dealing with a Jalianwalla baug issue and is busy gathering sympathies.
John = classic example of a troll.
No you're an idiot and don't actually sit there and tell me you are a sikh punjabi because if you were then you'd understand the importance that a kirpan has for an amritari person, you'd actually know about your religion and history. The kirpan is just as important to a sikh as the cross is to a catholic or the star of david is to a jew. You honestly just sound like a whitewash confused desi whose more interested in assimilating with the white society of america because you are so ashamed of your own people. You can't even segregate sikhs from muslims, are you for real?
SSA Desi,
I am not a Sikh and I have cleared it right in the beginning – I am a MONA Punjabi. Some 300 years ago Sri Gobind Singh ji started 5 Ks concept for Sikhs and it was mainly the wake of Mughal excesses. Sikhs have been following the concept of 5 Ks religiously since then but this is Texas and no Mughals here. I have seen thousands and thousands of Sikhs who have given up wearing long hair on the head and face as well and have adapted to their new domicile. Even in India many do not keep long hair and beard in order to get widely accepted. It is not a secret that a clean shaved Sikh gets more mileage from his stay abroad than someone looking like the way Ramandeep does. Its him and his sister's arrogant way that landed up their parents in Jail and now they are yelling excesses? To tell you the truth – I have never seen any case like Ramandeep's where upon being robbed the police sends the victim behind bars. Something has gone wrong and you all like cavemen are discussing sense in something that was as obvious as your fat belly. Ramandeep, to me looked a decent guy as I could see him as a cute pup as my eyes can photoshop a man without his turban and facial hair but I ain't sheriff and its the Sheriff and his men who count on this scene. I think I also saw Ramandeep wearing a yellow T Shirt that had TEXAS printed on it and it was just like he wearing a mini skirt and wearing a panama hat with pink carnation studded on it ! The moment you wear a turban and facial hair, there is no need to wear a suit or western outfits as all and everything gets nullified. Thats how powerful the influence is on others and this you can learn only when you graduate to being whitewashed and learned. Sheriff entered Ramandeep's house and he saw Ramandeep in his Pajama styled ill fitted polyester trousers and all the hair do and works and first thing that crossed his mind was " What the F is this thing – where does he think he is living …. He sure is looking for trouble" ! And then Ramandeep smart mouthed him by taunting him if he would like to hang around in his compound of consider coming in! Die was cast and Kawaljeet sealed their fate and all of them were locked in. Its been more than a year now and nothing has happened to Sheriff only you all have made fool of Raman and his family by making a website out of this unfortunate incident. Its time you all woke up and took a reality check. Once abroad, keep your religion, idiosyncrasies zipped up or you all are walking bully-eye. If you have to insist on your way of life then remain in the premisis of the place where this religion was born and people understand the importance of it. Do not expect others to learn your way of life its you who needs leaning as you are in their school not vice versa. Did Guru Gobind Singh ji asked you all to speak in English? Why are you speaking and communicating in it? Why was Kawaljeet and Ramandeep not speaking in Punjabi and expected Sheriff and his men to understand it as it was his fcukin fault? Its because you all know that speaking his language would have landed all of them in a mental institution so Tagores (what kind of Bangali Surname is being used by these guys?) were partly whitewashed too. The only problem is that they want to be little bit pregnant and it just can not happen – either you are pregnant or you are not. Either you are a normal guy or you are a Sikh – its that simple.
And, stop calling me an idiot – try and get my point as I am on your side and on the side of Ramandeep and his family. Ramandeep speaks good English and has a good home to live in. He has a good looking sister and decent loving parents too and its time he used his EQ to negotiate his daily life in Texas and not make a "tamasha" of his misfortune and seek sympathies.
Wow and now you honestly think that Raman is trying to generate sympathy for himself after to being brutalized by the police and watching his 60 year old mother be harrassed and arrested for doing absolutely nothing wrong. But i guess those kinds of dumb comments are expected from completely whitewashed people like yourself because you just consider yourself "white" and therefore rascism against those who express their religious beliefs is welcome and with people like you, its even appaulded. Hell, you're probably right, they should have just shut up, not stood up for their constitutional rights and never expresed their faith even in the comfort of their own home. They should have just assimilated themselves to white culture just like you.
We all have a head and an ass and both are meant for different functions and you guys not being able to differentiate these organs do your thinking from ass and spit shit from your mouths. If you had not insisted your way of life way back in early 1900s, we Punjabis (mona and Sikhs) would have been a part of accepted Caucasian race like Spanish, Italians and Greeks. Thats what we were categorized as in the beginning when the migrations to US started. You and your your types carried 5 Ks with you all the way from Amritsar to the coasts of America and alarmed the American authorities and even their Supreme Court. In a decision branding us all slaves, the title of being Caucasians was snatched from us and were also put in the herds of other colored lot . Do refer this web link to get educated – http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5076/ !
Bhagat Singh Thind was the reason now every one of us needs Visa to enter the US – before this incident in 1923 our community was exempted from all these requirements.
One more thing I have to ask you? Why not practice Sikhi in Privacy? Even in the olden days, Sikhs were not responsible of routing out Moghuls? We have only read the great sacrifices Sikh Gurus had to make but didn't see any desired results from the Jihad you all started. Besides creating more divisions in the Indian society? All the Kripans, Swords growing hair were not able to route out Mughals? So why do we have to put up with the quest you all started 300 years ago for a different reason? We are not your enemies nor there are any Mughals left in India as British simply wiped them out after the rebellion in 1857. When you agree not to gallivant like a copy book Nihang (wearing knee length Blue robe) and not speak in Punjabi then why not also alter some of the things that might land you up in a lock up or get shot http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1550037.stm !
Instead of going on about how they should have just "let go of their idiosyncrasies" and "stop insisting on living their own way of life in the west", you should have been talking about how people in texas have very little knowledge about the different types of indian cultures and how the people there, especially the police, need to be educated about cultural differences. But i guess you're just as narrowed minded as them. And please don't act like they can't be educated, they just don't want to be educated. I live in Canada and here everyone knows (yes, even the white people) that the kirpan is an artcle of sikh faith and not a weapon. And yes it is allowed in public-schools, courts, modes of transportation. That's just the law and if you are restricted from wearing it then it is automatically considered discrimination. You know what, I don't think that just the police in texas needed to be educated, I think you need a little reeducating as well so you can tone down your weird post-9/11 paranoia. This was nothing but a clear act of racism and how don't know how you gathered sympathy for the police instaed of the tagore family. Basically your comment was stupidity and nothing more.
Learn from Parsis. The Parsi immigrants arrived by boat on the Gujarat coast and were granted permission to stay by the local ruler Jadi Rana on the condition that they adopt the local language (Gujarati), that their women adopt local dress (the sari) and that they henceforth cease to bear arms . The refugees accepted the conditions and founded the settlement of Sanjan, which is said to have been named after the city of their origin (Sanjan, near Merv, in present-day Turkmenistan).(Hodivala 1920, p. 88) It is also said that when the refugees were asked how they would settle in the area, they replied: "Just as sugar dissolves in milk, we will assimilate into your culture."
Parsis still have their own culture and practice their own way of life live in privacy and command maximum respect from Indians non Indians alike.
You sound like a damn arrogant guy and calling me stupid on more than two occasions in your three posts but I am only trying to wake you up so that you can remove the bully eye you are wearing and not get shot like Sodhi.
John hay we meet again nice seeing you at this site after long time.
First dont worry about SODHIS getting shot.
Since time imemorial SIKHS have been shot by diferent set of peoples for paractising their faith and all have later patched up with SIKHS.
Incidentally SODHIS kins were guest at the White house recently.
As for Parsis SIKHS must never follow there model as they are dying race .
Rather Parsis must follow SIKHS to flourish on this planet.
SSA Harinder !
I do not remember been here before but it is quite possible that we both have exchanged posts on Topix. Good to meet you again !
You said QUOTE "As for Parsis SIKHS must never follow there model as they are dying race" UNQUOTE .
Parsis are way ahead in being affluent than Sikhs as a community in total. There wont be a Parsi doing lowly job of a Tarkhan, Bus driver, Guard or even taking a free ride on a social security of foreign government – they are a community to learn something from. Sophistication drops from everything they do and are one damn polite race. After they arrived in India some hundreds of years ago, they looked around and realised they didn't want to become like the people they were amongst and stayed within their own community. They would rather get wiped out than spawn Indian mixed generations.
Sikhs on the other hand have kept their membership open – anyone can become a Sikh but in reality you all should have kept your membership shut – only original Punjabis should have been SIkhs. I do remember my Grandmom used to tell me " Bachche, Sardar kalle nhi hinde – Kale Sardar da matlab – Chor Daku" ( Son, there are no dark sikhs and if there are it means they are mainly thieves and robbers ) – During the British India, thieves from mainland India – UP or MP escaped to Punjab in order to avoid the British police and remain hidden they grew hair and learned Punjabi and adapted the Sikh way of living. In our Punjabis there are no low castes to start with but in Sikhs you have sects and also Dalit Sikhs ? Tell me – do you really want to increase members at the cost of dividing your own race ? http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/26/world/asia/26in...
Rather Parsis must follow SIKHS to flourish on this planet.
Realisticlly its brahmins and muslims that look alike, in fact brahmins look more muslim than the average middle eastern muslim, although brahmins lack heart.
Muslims have more heart than brahmins and brahmins have never been able to defeat muslims. Since brahmins are very girly, male brahmins time and time again try to make themselves worthy of getting raped in order to avoid sacrificing their life.
As the police start harassing brahmins in the U.S, the brahmins will just get use to being pushed around. It’ll be interesting when it’s a black cop giving them hell. The brahmins will be thinking ‘I’m closer to brahma than you are black man’, and the cop will just shove the brahmins face into cold hard concrete, the brahmin will automatically start acting girly. That’s when the cop will realize he doesn’t have a terrorist muslim in custody but an unholy, fake girly, acting brahmin.
Once the brahmin gets to jail, he will change his name to mata hari. The brahmin will promise that he can be impregnated with a son by the biggest baddest gangster (one in a series of lies that he cant deliver), for this the Brahmin will bet stabbed to death and someone will need a refund on a carton of cigarettes.
Living a life in juxtaposition and waiting for Lucky oye Lucky so that some day drilling machine might arrive from Golden mosque where the sparrow goes underdog like fashion Ramchander Kishanechader saree store in Krol bagh ajmal Khan road. Its scenes like in Lajpatnagar or Hoboken near NJ and Turnpike dimmag lagee lakdee ukhad ke ghum do …aaja aajja mey hoon pyar tera is what the song best for growing kids. What do you say?
I think John Voxx's post speaks volumes about how some practicing Sikhs deal with police, and even their fellow Americans. Voxx's post is a reflection of a certain type of immigrant mentality where etiquette, communication and courtesy take a back seat to a sense of self-entitlement.
Here's a hypo: My gori neighbor knocks on my door on Sunday morning. Having woken up 20 mins prior, and polished off a prantha with lassi – I make the decision not to greet her in my kurta pyjama, smelling like alloo wale pranthey, with my joora and dhaari going in all different directions. Needless to say, it will scare the hell out of her and she'll probably never come back. However, some practicing Sikh may see differently and actually open the door in the above described state – (not thinking about the consequences of his behavior). This type of mentality is what Voxx's post alluded to. How the hell does this break barriers of ignorance and bigotry and foster understanding of our Sikh faith to people we interact with on a daily basis? Instead it breeds bad PR, and furthers ignorance.
SSA Ji,
In one of my posts I have given a link http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5076/ so that you can see how our fate was sealed with when Bhagat Singh Thind insisted on his rights and religious freedom. Before this guy, Thind, some of the communities from British India were well included as Caucasians and were allowed to migrate to the US without any other qualifications. U.S. law allowed only free whites to become naturalized citizens and these selected Indians were accepted as Whites. I agree that our whites are different but they are white enough to blend in equally well as Italians, Greeks, Portuguese in the US. All was set and doing well then the shit happened – our brothers from Punjab carried their way of life to the US and started rubbing right on the American faces. They saw different whites getting off the boats and suddenly our Sardarjis were getting off in their Nihang clothing – sometimes deep indigo colored with yellow turban armed with Kirpan to swords and the other paraphernalia – made the immigration officials take note of these people and discussed it amongst themselves if they should ever allow such a freak show on their land? Fast forward few years and they found a way out to refuse us the entry to the US on the basis of that we were not FREE whites ! They did agree that we were the Caucasian lot but not free hence, not eligible for the immigration to the US. Not only the Passport of Thind revoked but thousands of Sikhs and other Indians met the same fate as they were not Free from being the slaves of British.
I am only insisting that take a reality check – adapt, improvise and overcome and move on ! A post-er named Desi above have quoted " I live in Canada and here everyone knows (yes, even the white people) that the kirpan is an artcle of sikh faith and not a weapon. And yes it is allowed in public-schools, courts, modes of transportation" – I only smiled and wanted to have a face to face talk with him but then passed the urge. I can dig out hundreds of articles on this issue where Sikh kids were discriminated in schools and even banned http://www.sikhnet.com/news/kirpan-banned-finchle... and then we have a case of Gurbaj Multani http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/kirpan/ in Canada where the generous whites did allow Kirpan under some restrictions but did the Sikhs really win this one? Nope ! The authorities and the White Canadians do know that amongst us do exist certain crazy people who are beasts – grow facials hair and carry primitive weapons. A logical educated mind would always wonder as to WHY a DAGGER (you may call it a Kirpan or even a Rose but it doesn't change the fact that it is an object that can not be allowed on an Aircraft today due to the danger of violence of hijack) – Even going by the tenets of Sri Gru Gobind Singh ji, Kirpan was not given to a SIkh to peel Potatoes or chop onions – it was a weapon for protection – means, when attacked , use it and cause mayhem. In theory it looks cool and justified but Guru lost his sons to cruel oppressors 300 years ago and he was living in a different world. He was justified and did make his point and we do have Sikhi today – flourishing and being respected in the land where it originated. Desi says that Kirpan is allowed in different modes of transportations – well, yeah .. if these modes are riding a bike or sitting in a car or using a Segaway but it will be frowned upon if you walk in to a train being used by subway systems or crowded buses and certainly not allowed on an airplane or even airports. He knew it very well but the ego prevented him to specify the modes of transportations that matter. You can not travel out of Canada without using a plane unless you are just entering the bordering states in the US but still most people would need planes and Kirpans would not be allowed.
I smiled on your Paratha and Lassi and that too within 20 minutes of waking up was amusing
! But I did appreciate you not opening the door to your Gori neighbor ! Its called taking a reality check – check your state, check Joora check Dhaari and THINK !
Thank you.
I'm truly hoping that John is a troll as I just stumbled upon this issue and am absolutely horrified by what is happening to Sardars in the US. There is ABSOLUTELY no reason whatsoever that this family should have any issues practicing their religion and living however they want to live in their OWN HOME. I don't care what your beliefs are. The reality is that these people were minding their own business in their own house and no law enforcement official should be able to ask them any questions about anything that they are wearing unless she was brandishing her kirpan while drooling and shouting. There was no need for this family to be re-victimized.
Furthermore, you talk about "westernization" and learning to speak English. Exactly what part of the Sikh religion mandates that its members not educate themselves…oh wait….NONE! DUH!
If you think that it is OK for human beings to be judged based on their physical appearance then there is no way you are a person of colour and you are probably a neo-Nazi who should go back and post on your own forums as you are definitely not going to recruit any dimwitted, isolated, teenagers here my friend.
SSA ji,
Troll would be someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion. Going by this definition, you can brand me as Troll and many would support you in this endeavor as it would give you that satisfaction of shutting me off by using a fancy slang being used on the net !
In order to counter you I could use words like Primitive, Outdated, Medieval for you end it but thats not the objective here.
Ludhiana has maximum of flashy foreign cars and Sikhs are the only race in India that ends up marrying whites – mainly Sikh with a Gori – and you know why? Because Punjabis are the only race that almost equals the westerners in almost all aspects. The place they lack in being total equals is that they carry their Sikhi with them and make a public display of it and wants others to respect it. Now think of it if I asked you to respect "Rollomami" you would ask me as to what the f- – - is that? If I explained you that Rollomami is something very very scared to me and it is locked in a secured strong room in my house where only I can access it then you would wonder why the hell am I tell you that for? If it is locked in to my house in a secured state then why even mention it here and ask me to respect it? Thats what is Sikhi is also about. You have faith in it and you have your way of life so practice it in privacy if you happen to be living in a foreign country where you do not even count being even full point one percent of the population. Even in India, Sikhs amount to just being about 2% but Indian climate is different that accepts anything and everything. If Sikhi was like Rollomami then it is not under attack or any blasphemy so we do not have any Ramandeep Situations anymore.
Why was Ramandeep not wearing a Kirpan and his sister was wearing one? Both are Sikhs and follow the same religion and rituals but Raman was without a Kirpan? Tagore family was not practicing the religion in privacy but they had a Paratha and lassi (heck Jogan's post above to see the relevance) situation and they should have taken a reality check and should have disarmed themselves as Cops were coming in ! It was no more a private affair as Ramandeep did invite the cop in to his house ! Naturally when there is a robbery, cops would come in and have a look at the crime scene – it was the jurisdiction beyond Tagores influence until Sheriff gave a green signal. Just because it is your house, you can not run illegal activities in there. We do not know the version of Police as to why the officers of law would drag an old woman and man to jail without any reason? We do know that Officers were invited in there by Raman and they just didnt drop in from choppers and ascended from armored cars and pounced on Tagores for carrying a Kirpan and practicing Sikhi ! Ramandeep is using his religion to gain your sympathies and it is unfair that we listen to only his side and the version of his sister to form an opinion? Americans are known for their versions of Operation Blue Star Golden temple if you just read the Waco Texas siege http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_Siege and would realize that you just can not keep weapons and practice your religion in your own way !
I am not a neo-Nazi as I am a 34 year old Punjabi (not a Sikh) from Delhi having lived 32 years in US and Germany. So, I do have the maturity to deliver my understanding of the events here so that I can share my two cents with you all. I agree that on the face of it you would get angry but where am I insulting Sikhi here? Or even calling Tagores as Rats ?
Writing thoughts freely to convey experiences is what this forum is about. Raman felt betrayed by the system and he wants you to help him avenge his insults and I am here to make him aware that instead he should get in to the process of healing and move on. There are no Ramandeeps happening in Texas – its an isolated happening and Tagores themselves are to be blamed for it – not getting robbed but for getting arrested for being robbed? Why is Raman not screaming about the Miranda rights not being read to him? Upon being arrested he was explained as to why is he being arrested and why his mom, dad and sister were taken to the jail? He and his family is conveniently masking the essentials and mechanics of an arrest where the person being arrested is clearly told as to why he is being handcuffed!
Did you even bother about this aspect? Or just because he happens to be a Sikh, you would side with him blindly ?
Try and see my point being made here. My points are very valid and nothing is off-topic that you are branding me as troll.
All peoples of the world are equal :–
The Guru Granth Sahib promotes the message of equality of all beings and at the same time state that Sikh believers "obtain the supreme status" (SSGS, Page 446). Discrimination of all types is strictly forbidden based on the Sikh tenet Fatherhood of God which states that no one should be reckoned low or high, stating that instead believers should –“reckon the entire mankind as One” (Akal Ustat, 15.85).
Sri Guru Granth Sahib promotes the concept of equality by highlighting the fact that we are made of the same flesh, blood and bone and we have the same light of God with us – Soul . Our building bricks are the same:
SGGS Page 272 Full Shabad
The God-conscious being is always unstained, like the sun, which gives its comfort and warmth to all.
The God-conscious being looks upon all alike, like the wind, which blows equally upon the king and the poor beggar.
John
America belonged to Red Indians .Did Europeans adopted their ways?
Hey KDS,
Why are you not living in the land of these Red (cherookee) Indians – Mexico, Peru and many other lands still can be called as their land ? Its all about evolution. Europeans found the new world and found very very primitive people still living the cave age (1492) and practicing their own way of life that was non productive. In fact they were danger to their own survival. Europeans carved a nation out of this piece of land and gave them a better life. It has become the most powerful nation on the face of earth – whats your complaint about?
Ranveer,
And now Latin Americans and other immigrant groups are about to retake this land. Its all about evolution.
This means that “Waheguru” loves and is merciful to all his childrens :–
Hindus/muslims/chrisitans/Jews/buddhist/Sikhs/Jains/Shias/Sunnis/Catholics/Protestants/Brahmins/Shudra/Blacks/Whites/Browns/Africans/Normans/Slavs/Welsh/jatts/Ramgarhias/Rajputs/Dravadians/bedouins/gorkhas/mongols/celetics/vikings/Normans/red Indians /plants/animals/ bacterias/viruses/fungus/matter/ energy/Vaccum and of course aliens which we shall encounter in future etc etc
Punjaban commented above:
"If you think that it is OK for human beings to be judged based on their physical appearance then there is no way you are a person of colour and you are probably a neo-Nazi who should go back and post on your own forums as you are definitely not going to recruit any dimwitted, isolated, teenagers here my friend. "
Don't know what planet ot state you live in – but it's a known reality that "image" is everything in corporate America. Bottom lines are based on those marketing, selling, and branding certain products. Even in the workplace, there are rules aginst beards etc. While it may not be ok for human beings to be judged according to their appearance – in the US, it is fundamental that the aesthetic demeanor of practicing Sikhs be confident, smart, and dignified.
E x a c t l y my thought !
Coming back to the original topic of Ramandeep and his sister Kawaljeet – Yesterday I did mention about "Miranda Rights" and this is now a key point in this issue. Nowhere Ramandeep or his family has mentioned that they were not read their Miranda Rights – according to the constitution of America a person being taken in the custody must be informed of the crime for which he is charged and about his right to remain silent and about his right to consult an attorney. Looks like Ramandeep has been read his rights before being handcuffed and the reason being given couldn't have been that he is a Sikh or the way he is dressed up or the way he looks ! They must have been told of the reasons of their arrest – resisting arrest or not assisting in police investigation or threatening an officer on duty or similar charges !
He is conveniently brining his race and religion in front so that he can get maximum support from his community and he also did get that support – Am I right or what? Ramandeep has conveniently masked the charges that were read to him and is telling you the things according to his own reasons as to why he and his family got arrested?
I am sure you will all understand that Tagores are misusing your support by bringing the hatred for the hosts in your mind. Its time he gave the truth out so that he and the Sikh community can heal and move on.
John Voxx, your comments are pretty lame, and for this the police should read your mother her miranda rights for breaking all sorts of laws, legal and natural. First on that list is for having sex with a bandaar (monkey), then for actually being able to have the baby of a bandaar. Then they should arrest your half rhesus monkey/ half kutha(dog) father, for not registering as a kutha and for running away from the circus without a dog tag. Finally the cops should arrest you for that youga pose you do, where you stick both your big toes up your yayo. But with this economy and lack of jail space for twisted offenders the three of you will be back on the streets in no time, calling attention to yourself.
@ Kraven for a Haven: Thanks for your support and you are right its his mother that needs to get arrested for having sex with bandaar. maybe his sister should get raped too for insulting our religion and our feelings collectively. Blody idiot of first degree.
Dear Readers,
Kraven for a Haven or Kraven the misbehavin has never appeared under this name on this forum but he happens to be someone who does read this thread regularly and does comment regularly under different name/s. My post about Miranda rights is an eye opener for you all here and am sure that you do see this episode differently now. I am sure you all can also guess as to who could have so much of vested interest in this thread that he gets hurt on my posts and analysis and so angry he can get that he mentions my mother and father abusing them and wants them to be arrested exactly on the lines as senior Tagores got arrested ! This poster, Kraven, has no exchange of posts with me or we have ever communicated before but he is damn upset with my Miranda post in particular. Think, WHY?
@ Kraven: No matter what you do or scream, Sikh community will see this case differently and you are deeply upset and very hurt because of this – Cat is out of the bag now. Power of pen has found its worth and the readers can go through the healing process knowing that Tagores may not have been arrested without a valid reason after all !
This forum is all about exchanging ideas on different issues affecting us and all I have done here is given my way of looking at things and have informed the worthy Sikh community as to what could have transacted ?
I haven't insulted anyone here but have stated the facts and if the moderator wipes my posts off then this would affect the quality of fairness "The Langar Hall" wants to maintain as they definitely do not need post-ers like you over here.
Question: Guess the background of this mysterious Mr. Voxx?
My Guess: Unlike some prediction by fellow posters who think Mr. Voxx is Punjabi, I myself do not think so. He/She is probably a middle aged, scarred, afraid, person working in some sort of academic institution and learning about Sikhism not because of self-interest but rather because of self-protection. You know…If history has wronged you and you plan to wrong others in retaliation and your greedy self-interests, you are bound to be wronged again by history…This will all make sense to old' John if my prediction about who he/she is correct. If my prediction is wrong, simply ignore.
John Voxx, all your posts are based on assumptions — that is why they are so offensive. Here are some assumptions of my own:
1. You are one of the policemen involved in this incident or one of their lawyers (whose been reading up on Sikhs to formulate a defense).
2. You fear that the groundswell of support for your (or your client's) misdeeds will force the authorities to launch an investigation which, if nothing else, will tarnish your (or your client's) service record.
3. To pre-empt this you introduce the red herrings of Ramandeep's assumed behaviour on opening the door and his sister's assumed behaviour on entering the room. At some stage during investigations (court case) you are going to refer to these postings and any lack of rebuttal as evidence that you (or your client) are telling the truth about what happened.
4. You also introduce the red herring of Miranda Rights — for you are not interested in the truth but in testing what will and will not work in front of a jury.
5. You are also testing the arguments that can effectively rebut your creation of a scenario based on assumptions — assumptions which require a degree of factual knowledge not available in media/web reports of this incident.
I think you should accept your mistake (or advise the same to your client, if you are the lawyer) and apologize
[My apologies for the grammatical mistakes in the previous posting. Hopefully I have corrected these below :-]
John Voxx, all your posts are based on assumptions — that is why they are so offensive. Here are some assumptions of my own:
1. You are one of the policemen involved in this incident or one of their lawyers (who has been reading up on Sikhs to formulate a defense).
2. You fear that the groundswell of support for the victim of your (or your client's) misdeeds will force the authorities to launch an investigation which, if nothing else, will tarnish your (or your client's) service record.
3. To pre-empt this you introduce the red herrings of Ramandeep's assumed behaviour on opening the door and his sister's assumed behaviour on entering the room. At some stage during investigations (court case) you are going to refer to these postings and any lack of rebuttal as evidence that you (or your client) are telling the truth about what happened.
4. You also introduce the red herring of Miranda Rights — for you are not interested in the truth but in testing what will and will not work in front of a jury. This is important as whether Miranda Rights were read or not will rest on Policemen's word against Tagore Family's word.
5. You are also testing the arguments that can effectively rebut your creation of a scenario based on assumptions — assumptions which require a degree of factual knowledge not available in media/web reports of this incident.
I think you should accept your mistake (or advise the same to your client, if you are the lawyer) and apologize
The Sikh Centre,
Your post is funny and made me laugh out loud. No, I am not a lawyer or a cop but am a blogger from Germany writing on issues of importance and am quite controversial if you read my other blogs.
Please tell me if you have succeeded so far in activating the IA (Internal Affairs) division that investigates on Police corruption or miscarriage of justice? I doubt that very much as nothing has happened besides few Sikhs writing a blog here or one blog there. based on Tagore's crooked testimony.
The way Ramandeep and his family yelled and made hue & cry, even I was shaken up – it looked convincing but then I watched the video many times over and realized that Khushwant Singh's article did make sense after all http://www.expressindia.com/news/fullstory.php?ne...
and this one http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20050827/saturda...
Sikhs are able bodied good looking community and probably the most affluent in India and among the Indians living abroad – Not withstanding is Mona Punjabis, Sindhis & maybe Gujratis. You guys make the most trouble out of nothing and not only drag your own community in trouble waters but also drag the the word "Indian" with it.
Tagores of the past have always brought bad news for the Sikh community by their delinquencies and stupid ego – may it be Komagata Maru incident http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komagata_Maru_incide... or Bhagat Singh Thind http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5076/ or Jallianwalla Baug or Caxton hall shooting http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Udham_Singh_-...
My point here is that all we know as to what the plaintiff is alleging and we do not see any defendant here and the only option left to us is assume. Even you are assuming as it gives you the desired answers – by assuming that I could be a cop or a lawyer, you are further getting in to the mess Ramandeep has created. He has brought in ill feelings for the whole Sikh community in his personal mess. He has turned this in to a religious matter and now you guys are with him supporting him just because he happens to wear a "Pug" ?
You all have to live amongst the Whites and here you are planning to mess with them for no fault of theirs? Where do you think this is going to take you? All the incidents I have mentioned above have not ended good for Sikh community and have made them a subject for further persecution and also now this is what is happening.
Miranda Rights is a key issue here as this will let you have the reasons as to why Tagores were ushered to a jail house handcuffed – No way the cops would have told him that " You are being arrested for looking the way you look and practicing the un American religion on the land of Caucasians" – Why is not anyone questioning Ramandeep " Puttar hun bol wee de tu onannu ki kya hei ki tennu fadd ke laigaine" – You guys are presuming that Ramandeep has been picked up the way he looks? Thats how he perceives himself – maybe he is a misfit and gets strange stares wherever he goes (except Gurudwara) and this time he doesn't want to lose the opportunity to get even with the Texan Hillbillies !
In my opinion, as I am neither a Sikh nor a White, when in Rome, do as the Romans do ! Back off now and close this issue and ask Tagores to pack off and leave for a more Sikh friendly country – maybe Canada or Southall UK !
Bottom line ? I do not see any racism here but I suspect Bonnie and Clyde like attitude from Raman and Kawaljeet that has brought all this mess on them.
@ John Voxx,
Now you are showing your true colours …and I find little amusement in it for it smells of the same kind of thinking that resulted in death of six million Jews. I won't be surprised if you are a Punjabi Hindu aligned with RSS who is still trying to shake off the sense of shame at the history of subjugation. That is why you see all instances of assertion of rights by Sikhs (Komagata Maru, Bhagat Singh Thind, Jallianwala Bagh, and numerous others) as something undesirable.
Or are you simply a chameleon who takes on the colour that makes you feel safe?! Lion on the other hand does not need to change colour or shave off his mane to feel safe
Here is another assumption…you see "being controversial" as something that you were forced to do in order to fit in — something similar to Nirad C Choudhary perhaps! Your assumptions in Tagore family incident are so offensive (as opposed to controversial) because you are more interested in providing a justification to the Policemen involved rather than see how similar incident can be prevented in future. Your logic in fact seems to argue that merely on suspicion cops should be justified to act before asking questions. You of course will justify the shooting to death of the African-American groom and his friends in a New York car park — "for their whole face looked black, as if they were wearing a mask". You my friend are not controversial — just pathetic.
The Sikh Centre,
So, you have one more assumption that I am now a RSS HIndu ! Let me correct you on that one too – I am not. In fact I have even become an atheist and have even distanced myself from Hinduism. There are enough articles on net to prove that I am in fact an anti -RSS man and I have been on record decrying the massacre of Sikhs (I would even term this as Pogrom) in 1984 – So, Pipe down.
Why don't you for a moment see sense in what I am proposing? I am proposing that Ramandeep and Kawaljeet have smart mouthed law officers and have rubbed them in the wrong way. Kawaljeet has even confirmed that she was carrying a Kirpan ( in the eyes of a non Indian who has no idea about these idiosyncrasies it is just like being armed with a weapon that can kill) and officer/s were put off for she refusing to disarm! Its plain and simple – the whole episode has developed from the weapons these people kept at their homes (a La David Koresh of Waco, Texas that shook up the entire nation http://www.toptenz.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/08... ) . If you see the video clip embedded on this thread, fast forward to 03:08/11:19, Ramandeep is no more carrying a Kirpan – he is carrying a fckin Sabre (A Talwar) while enacting to search for a robber at home for Sach productions ! It clearly shows that Macho Tagores were not only in possession of cute Kirpans but very offensive looking sword/s that might have alarmed the cop/s ! You do know by now that cops disn't come to Ramandeep's house uninvited to make a robbery report and they didn't have any other agenda or one cop would't have showed up to meet Raman – he would have been with a force to start with if their agenda was to harass these Sikhs? You are overlooking the visuals here and are blinded by the religious fundamentalism that Ramandeep and Sister were violated for being Sikhs ? Why can't you see them as two belligerent delinquents who were given a reality check by the restrained cops or worst could have ensued – Raman getting shot in his butt or some sort of violent outcome – a la Waco tragedy!
My Mom follows Guru Granth Sahib and we even have the Granth at home with all the required paraphernalia – as a child I have even joined my mother and aunts on "Prabhat feris" before Gurpurab (Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Birthday) so I also know that religion can be followed without making an overt show (or showoff) of it.
The trouble is with you guys is that most of yous do not see yourselves as Human beings and associate your entities with a Lion – many of you even have ferocious expressions of a lion and face hairdos to look like Man lions and speak in a heavy voice and to top it call yourselves as a "Singh" – depicting that you are Lions personified and hence you literally behave like beasts without realizing as to how odd it looks to a person who has not been in to this kind of upbringing ! You subconsciously end up behaving like a beast in order to fit the picture of a lion without realizing that it is not only primitive but has no place in the modern world we live in.
And don't give me this crap of Lion not being able to shave or change color as you are now totally crooked in your perception and are imagining Lion with a Gillette shaving kit resisting to go clean shave – even monkeys do not shave their manes or change colors as we are looking at three different types of life forms here – A Human Being, a Mammal and a Reptile ! I know that there are thousands of Sikhs who have shaved of their beards and cut hair to assimilate or blend in to avoid being a subject of ridicule – many did it in the wake of anti Taliban violence within US and many did it during or after 1984 Sikh Massacres.
If you are so hooked up on looking like a lion then why not wear a lion suit and a tail and walk on four limbs to complete the look of a lion and remove doubts from the mind of the person who looks at you ? I am sure you do not want to get locked up for psychiatric evaluations hence, desist such a temptation ! So, man lion after all is not a lion as he can exercise what is good for him and what not so he will do same things differently depending on circumstances to suit his ass – he is after all not a lion but a Human being.
The Sikh Centre,
I don't know what Nirad Chaudhary you are talking about as I couldn't find one with relevance on the net. My assumption in Tagore family incident might be offensive to the people who are deluded but it would make perfect sense to a person who has an open mind. You are right that I am providing justifications for the actions of the policemen as I am looking at it from a Birds eyes view without being a part of your closed society which thinks that it is blasphemous to think anything different than being fed by fellow Sikhs. Blacks have been persecuted since their births ( as far as we know in the recorded history) so Afro males getting shot in New York car park can be termed as a sporadic unfortunate incident but not Tagores ! Tagore incident could have been avoided if Tagores took a reality check and concealed their weapons before the cops arrived. A Black man can not conceal his skin color even if he puts a white paint on his face – he will be called a Black man with a paint on is face whereas A Sikh without a weapon will not be called a Sikh with a concealed weapon !
Besides, this happens to be a forum where we all can speak about the subjects concerning us and I am aided by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution that empowers me to do what I am doing here. Tagores are also free and not locked up for being Sikhs and its also because of the First Amendment of the US Constitution.
I am sorry to have caused you any unintentional hurt but there were not any other suitable effective ways to deliver my message.
@John Voxx
Man you are bitter, bitter, bitter … and it saddens me. Try re-reading what you write as if I (or some one else who represents what you hate) wrote it. You might be able to see how you look in the mirror when you are not wearing the glasses of self-hate. You should read Dr Jaideep Singh's following article to know where you took the wrong turn (assuming of course that you are writing truth about your background which keeps changing).
http://www.sikhfoundation.org/2009/sikh-punjabi-l...
I am a little confused by your "exercising First Amendment" in Germany … is there no German law that you could refer to? Or is "Germany" also the place where you stay in your mind?! Your reference to First Amendment in fact provides the perfect argument against your piffle — go to the Second Amendment
Now try to find any cases where the police might have come to a scene of reported robbery (or any other crime), found the residents carrying fire-arms and went on to arrest them.
Take a rest man…and try to disabuse yourself of the notion that you are "controversial"… you are simply losing it. A pity for the whole point was to make the police officers accountable and have the incident probed — you however turned it into a platform to espouse hatred of the practising Sikhs. You are simply reflecting your self-hate onto any target you can get.
I will say it again — take a rest man.
The Sikh Centre,
I haven't spoken a lie anywhere. Scroll back on page 1 and refer to my reply to a poster called Punjaban where she called me a Troll. I did explain her of my background. I am an American National as well besides being a German Citizen. I am of the Indian origin. Why are you freaking out? I do not hate anyone its your thinking that is playing tricks on you.
I am writing about an incident about a Sikh family in US and I presumed that Langar Hall is also an American website dealing mainly with issues taking overseas (not India) – so, in here I spoke about my rights pertaining to the cyber territory I am in and also the rights I have as an American citizen – you can not hold anything that I have written as libelous and vexatious. Why would I flash my German rights here with you? All the western democracies have similar laws except when it comes to the capital crime – in US its way different than what we have here in Europe.
Why are you getting exhausted when I am the one who is doing all the writing ? You do not like it, take a rest – do not read my posts.
Accept my concerns and apology for speaking the truth.
@ John Voxx
Another presumption, my friend. I am not surprised. But the degree to which you seem deluded is apparent from your claims to "speaking the truth" while all you have done is assume and presume.
If you are honest and seek truth, let us start the discussion again. Respond to the following:
1. Second amendment allows bearing of arms.
2. Has there ever been any incident where a person who called in the police to report a crime was arrested for carrying a weapon lest the criminal be around?
3. If a follower of Judaism calls the police to report a robbery and is found to be wearing his yarmulke, which the police "confuse" with Muslim kufi and start treating the person as a terrorist. The person (already stressed for being a victim of a crime) starts to feel being victimized again by police, and tries to argue his case, which police take as unruly behaviour or "resisting orders", handcuff the person and take them to police station. The person files a complaint and at the same time the Jewish community is outraged and express it outrage to the authorities demanding investigation of whether the actions were deliberate anti-semitism; it also seeks education of all officers to prevent a similar thing happening in future. Would you agree with this course of action?
The Sikh Centre,
Good Morning to you – Its 0630 in the morning here in Germany and I am happy to see a reply from you that signals a freeze in Ad hominem from your side. Lets thrash it out. You are in for a long one as I am not a concise gifted writer.
Right from your first post it is you who has been presuming yourself endlessly and accusing me of the same – it was you who presumed that I was either one of the cops or one their lawyers – How the hell did you assume such a preposterous thing – No white Texan and that too an officer of law would even dream to visit Langar hall that has nothing in common with whatever they do ? You have been assuming that I am not of the background I am claiming to be from – I have explicitly explained as to who I am and the background I have – you are presuming whatever suits you in order to discredit me ?
As suggested by you, I agree to restart the discussion.
You have asked me to respond on three points.
1. Second amendment allows bearing of Arms.
Agreed BUT there is a twist to it. Refer Miller Vs Texas and its verdict.
In Miller v. Texas, 153 U.S. 535 (1894), Franklin Miller was convicted and sentenced to death for shooting a police officer to death using a handgun, in violation of Texas law.
Miller sought to have his conviction overturned, claiming his Second Amendment rights were violated and that the Bill of Rights should be incorporated to state law. The Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment DID NOT APPLY TO STATE LAWS SUCH AS TEXAS OWN LAWS.
Now lets see TEXAS state law pertaining to bearing the arms:
According to the 1876 Texas Constitution: "Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the state; BUT THE LEGISLATURE SHALL HAVE THE POWER BY LAW TO REGULATE THE WEARING OF ARMS.
Officers obtained an affidavit charged him with carrying weapons, cursing, and swearing. Regarding the weapons charge, he was arrested for violating a statute entitled, "An Act to Regulate the Keeping and Bearing of Deadly Weapons," which read in pertinent part:
Any person carrying on or about his person any weapon for the purpose of offense or defense, unless he has reasonable grounds for fearing an unlawful attack on his person, and that such ground of attack shall be immediate and pressing . . . shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.
The net is full of this episode – check it out yourself . I am not from Texas but this region is special and one has to be very careful while assuming many things for granted once you live here. I am sure in there somewhere lies the answer to Tagore Ordeal.
2. There have been many incidents where the criminals have reported the break in in order to claim their staged robbery or theft benefits from insurances. Also other crimes such as a mothers drowned her own infant and informed police that someone hijacked her car and baby too or a mother ate her own baby after killing her – http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2009/08/01/otty_...
Cops have to deal with all kinds of criminals and Tagore residence must have provoked them to think accordingly especially where the men masked their faces (all of them had turbans and facial hair) and women carried side arms in the presence of the Cops ! To answer your question – no, there are no cases I have heard where the caller is arrested for carrying the weapons and thats why I think that Tagores have done something collectively to flare up the situation and if you ask a non Sikh to look at the situation neutrally then my assumption is highly plausible.
3. Red Herring ! The caller was not a Jew. Jews gallivant in their black robes and flowing beards and funny locks and knitted Yarmulke all across the United States and almost every one in the US knows what a Jew is and how he looks like. There are many senators at the capitol hill who wear yarmulke and can be seen daily on the news – while people wearing turbans and flowing beards who have been slitting throats of the US citizens ( Berg, Daniel pearl), bombing planes and 9/11 resemble Sikhs closely. I would like to repeat again – I am not saying that Sikhs are doing all those heinous crimes but they can be mistaken as terrorists or violent people – especially where even their women carry daggers that can kill?
@ John Voxx
"It is 5.33am in Dallas, and I have just woken up to your delusional droning."
"It is 8.33pm in Osaka and I have just come home to your tiresome rants."
"It is 12.33pm in "Germany" and I am looking at your piffle in my lunch time."
You are so full of it.
@ John Voxx
1. If the second amendment has a "twist" it is not what you refer to — which just shows that you are talking of issues that you hardly understand. If you have heard of the fourteenth amendment then attention to this: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
Now go to Cantwell v. Connecticut and the clarification that first amendment protected religious practitioners against restrictions at the state, local as well as federal levels. Get it? Which ever way you look at it, no amount of twisting of 1st 2nd or 14th amendments will justify any of your rants.
2. You are so so pathetic. Although all your posts appeal to prejudice and biase of your own ilk, the second takes the mud cake. Now eat it.
3. So you do agree that a Jew can never be mistaken for a Muslim because American public and Policemen know the difference between a yarmulke and a kufi from its visibility — from which may be concluded that there is a need to educate the police officers about the difference between a Sikh turban and one that bin Laden's ilk wear, in order to avoid the incident like one that involved the Tagores ever happening again
Q.E.D.
continued ….
Coming to the last part of your point 3 – I do agree that if these officers should be fired if the version Tagores have given is true but my question to you is what if Tagores are collectively lying ? Do you want to have the officers of law fired for being innocent?
If so true is the incident as alleged then how come we have not seen any action or Internal affairs investigations? I am sure that District Attorney has dismissed the case as BS otherwise we would have heard of some more development on this from the media. By now we would have also seen Tagores pasting their victory if Tagores had succeeded !
Are you aware that there were not one or two officers at Tagores residence once the commotion started – there were more than dozen deputies who had swarmed the Tagore residence http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/... ! All the officers of law must have seen Tagores belligerent threatening demeanor and the cache of weapons ( we have seen Sardarnis with Kirpans and Ramandeep with a Sabre ) that has sadly played against them.
Another thing that plays against Tagores here is that they were all born in India and came to Texas only 20 years ago – they have spent their formation years in India – it means they are equipped of being crafty to cook up such a scenario and seek sympathies from everyone.
In my eyes, we should have seen more to this case then one weblink here another there as if nothing has happened at all. Tagores got robbed, police came and Tagores saw the inside of a jail house and Sikh community is flared up ! What happened to the friendly Super cop Garcia who took over as friendly Sheriff and promised to investigate? I saw also his video where he was invited by the Sikh community to a Gurdwara and heard everything patiently and despite of being anti previous Sheriff and friendly to the SIkh community we have not heard anything from him ? Care to find it out please? Why has there been almost no news on it if this is such a big case of miscarriage of justice?
The Sikh Centre,
Right from your first post you have been busy calling me Deluded and labeling my postal contents as piffle along with terming me as a pathetic individual full with prejudice and bias. It signals only one thing – that, you are shaken up with the facts I have presented and they do make sense or you wouldn't have stuck on to this issue for so long and especially considering that you have never posted any other post under this name on this forum? You are someone who is directly affected by this Tagore episode and have vested interest in its outcome. You are basically indicating from the cyber name you have chosen that you are not one individual but a collective voice of the Sikh community and want to endorse your views unopposed as you happen to be in The Langar Hall where only Sikhs write.
Signalling the end of discussion from your side ( Quod Erat Demonstrandum) is at best laughable and I will not rub it in your face to shame you but pay attention to the following points to rethink as what you and your ilk thinks is of no consequence as these issues are now in the US and will be dealt within the framework of its law.
I will make my closing statement to you since you have ceased to continue.
Pay attention to the following important points.
a) During an interview with Lindsay Wise of Houston Chronicle Ramandeep mentioned Quote "It just looked like he didn't want to be there," he said. "I sensed a little uneasiness from him." Unquote http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/...
This is an important fact as it is his own statement – the Deputy was uneasy as he saw things that made him Damn Uneasy and (watch this) "HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE THERE" ? If he Didn't want to be there then how come he stayed back and not only stayed back but pointed a taser gun and Kawaljeet's head and called for a backup? Why would he bundle up an unkempt man handcuffed in the back of his car who could have unpleasant body odor especially when he simply Didn't want to be there? This Deputy could have lost it but by the time all Tagores were bundled up to a Jail house it was an act of not a lone crazed gung-ho deputy but a posse of over dozen officers!
2) Why was senior Tagore not taken to the Jail house ? Why was he left out ? Has anyone asked that? It was his frail old mother who saw the inside of a jail house just because officers hated her for being old and a foreign born? Ramandeep's father was excluded from this round up and there is a reason for it – find that out.
3) When you all invite people to your Gurdwaras, may he be a state head or some VIP, you expect him to follow your rituals or you get pissed. Ramandeep should have understood that he was in Texas, a home to those cops as they were the natives, and he should have respected their ways of life first.
4) What was the charge being read to Tagores before they were handcuffed and booked? Why are you not looking in to this aspect? This is the key to the whole issue as it literally exonerates the cops of any wrong doing and puts the blames on lucky-to-be-free Tagores.
5) Why the new Super cop Garcia , the new Sheriff, has not supported Tagores in their quest to seek an apology from the cops and fire the guilty ones? He did say that it was too early for him as he was only a Sheriff elect but he would investigate ! Where is the accountability of this? I am sure that elders from concerned Sikh community must have met Garcia many times after he was invited to the Gurdwara and coxed to take punitive actions – what is the outcome? Why is there a lull on that issue? Garcia could have initiated Internal Affairs especially there was an alleged constitutional rights violation if he was so concerned about Tagores? I am sure Garcia was also convinced that Tagores were lying or masking the crucial information that led to them in a jail house.
continued ……….
@John Voxx
Back to your assuming and presuming self I see
QED — it signals my point being demonstrated by your argument. Literally, "which was to be demonstrated". It does not mean that I have signalled an end to responding to any further piffle from your end
Here is another demonstration of your delusional rants. You write, and I quote:
"1. You are someone who is directly affected by this Tagore episode and have vested interest in its outcome.
"2. You are basically indicating from the cyber name you have chosen that you are not one individual but a collective voice of the Sikh community and want to endorse your views unopposed as you happen to be in The Langar Hall where only Sikhs write."
In brief my response is — b@#ll s$%t. In detail:
1. You only had to click on my name to go to the blog and know that I do not even live in USA and I am pretty sure that going through the blog content you would know that I cannot have anything to do with the Tagores on a personal level.
2. The name is self-explanatory if you visit the blog.
There you go Mr Presumptuous — take the falsity of your assumptions as an indication of how far you are from reality.
I am assuming that the "continued…….." at the end of your piffle means you will be dealing with the 1st, 2nd and 14th amendments as well as your self-defeating response to my yarmulke and kufi analogy (remember QED?!). But of course, my assumption may be completely wrong and you might come back with from piffle from the vast deposit you carry
There is a new thread on the Langar Hall – ( http://thelangarhall.com/general/enjoy-the-show-b... ) and its titled Enjoy The Show But Leave Your Kirpan At Home !
Irony is that show would start with the requisite dharmak songs,and singer Gurdas Maan’s tribute to Guru Gobind Singh and his contributions to Sikhi – Amritdharis would have a problem with leaving the Kirpans home if they want to attend this show.
When the Organizers of Gurdas Man concert are SIkhs, Gurdas as well, then how can we expect Sheriff from refraining Kawaljeet to wear a Kirpan ? Tagores invited Cops in to their home and it was a crime scene – Now its the prerogative of the Police to call the shots and Tagores should have understood this.
@ John Voxx
LOL
He needs an answer Mr Sikh Centre ! LOL might give you a comfort here but looks like that you have been sequestered but to us you are looking embarrassed and defeated!
@ Harinder
It was laughable (at least to me) that rather than discuss what the US constitution might say (if tested in a court of law) about the Sikhs' (like Tagores) rights, Mr Voxx goes at a tangent (yet again) and introduces "another thread" into this discussion — to do what? To take the discussion on rights of an individual to the silly "debate" between practising and non-practicing Sikhs about "who is more committed to walking Guru's path".
If you are saying Mr John Voxx "needs an answer" then my friend you need to ask him to answer my questions asked in response to what he has been writing. My laughter is in response to his response to my response
I am happy to discuss that in the thread to which Mr Voxx refers — but I won't do that to prove a point that is not even mine
Regarding "embarrassment" and "defeat" — if that is how I sound to you I have no problem with that. However, the issue still remains that Mr Voxx has characterized the practising section of the Sikh community ( (including historical personages and incidents concerning their fight for equal rights) in all possible negative shades without any logical or supporting evidence. Unless he can do that whatever he writes will elicit only laughter
Sikh Centre,
I just realized that show was in April in 2009 – still, the issue and relevance is same and we are talking about Kirpan not being allowed in function organized by Sikhs, of Sikhs and for Sikhs !
For reasons known to the management of this forum, some high powered material in my posts meant for my second part of the previous long post is not being allowed to appear or it would have been a slam dunk case for all involved in Tagore episode, including you.
I have realized that constitutional discussion is way beyond your level so I have made it easy for you understand my response – literally making it like C -A -T- Cat means Billi D – O -G – Dog Means Kutta !
@ John Voxx a.k.a. "You Know Who" [a.k.a. Harinder??]
N-A-Z-I means Jews either "assimilate", give up their Jewishness or wear Star of David and die horrible deaths in gas chambers.
V-H-P/R-S-S means Sikhs either "assimilate", give up signs of their distinct identity or be maligned as terrorists and die in "false encounters" or now-a-days be treated as less than human.
For further simplification, an extremist is one who seeks to limit others' choices and tries to foist one's own worldview on those who may look different or think differently or speak different language.
Voxx ,
SIKHISM may have started admist the Punjabis but its message is for all the species in this universe.
Waheguru loves all his childrens :–
'Hindus/muslims/chrisitans/Jews/buddhist/Sikhs/Jains/Shias/Sunnis/Catholics/Protestants/Parsis/Brahmins/Shudra/Blacks/Whites/Browns/Africans/Normans/Slavs/jatts/Ramgarhias/Rajputs/Dravadians/bedouins/gorkhas/mongols/celetics/vikings/Normans/red Indians /plants/animals/ bacterias/viruses/fungus/matter/ energy/Vaccum and of course aliens which we shall encounter in future etc etc
"Nanak Nam chadi Kal tere bane sarvatt tha bhalla"
by the way what is your name your parents gave you ?
I am named as Ranveer.