Sikh Family In Texas Victims Of Police Brutality

UPDATE: If you are outraged by this incident, please CALL THE HARRIS COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE (TEXAS) @ (713-755-6044) and let Harris County Sheriff Tommy Thomas know how you feel. These Officers need to be reprimanded and we as a community need to push the Sheriff’s Office to act.  You can also contact Houston Mayor Bill White at (832-393-1000) or [email protected]

The night before Thanksgiving you are robbed of your sense of security and $15,000 of your home belongings AND THEN you are robbed of your humanity by Sheriff’s Officers who promise to protect you.  All this happens in your own home …

The Tagore family in Texas were criminalized and terrorized because of their Sikh articles of faith after calling in to report a burglary in their home.

Ramandeep Singh Tagore says,

“That night we were actually robbed twice … Once by the actual burglars, who we don’t know who they were, and secondly by the Sheriff’s Department, who we knew who they were.”

Once the Sheriff’s Officers had arrived in their home they started focusing on Kawaljeet Kaur’s kirpan and told her: “You can’t wear that”, she felt like she was being treated “ … like a criminal in my own home … “.  Kawaljeet Kaur [Ramandeep Singh Tagore’s sister] told the Houston News that “I didn’t appreciate the way that I was treated that day …  I’m a human and I would have expected to be treated like a human.”  Kawaljeet verbalized her feelings and constitutional right to practice her faith to the Officers.  Their response was pushing her out of her house, having her sit in the middle of the street, and handcuffing her.

Ramandeep said to Harpreet Kaur of Sach Productions (watch the video below for more in-depth reporting)

“first we are calm and then the aggression … brutality type of thing … pushing and shoving is starting when the cops get here I mean their acting like thugs … if we are civilizingly dealing with them then why do you have to come push me and shove me when we’re trying to talk to you … is it because I look different or something.”

Manjit Kaur, Ramandeep’s mother, felt: “Dekhoo ik taan saade ghar robbery hoyi hai ..tusi lok saadi help karan aaye aan k saanu arrest karan aaye aan” (Look there has been a robbery in our house … have you people [Sheriff’s Officers] come to help us or arrest us?)

Soon after this conversation with the Sheriff’s officers, Ramandeep, his mother, sister, and cousin are handcuffed.

The officers put Ramandeep and his mother in separate patrol cars and driveaway, while his sister sits in the middle of the street handcuffed and his cousin is standing handcuffed in the middle of the driveway.

One of the things that upset Ramandeep the most is:

“ … I am a young guy, I can take it … I have bruises on my hand because of the handcuff and all that … I can take it … but for them to do that to my sister … to my mother who you know is in her 60s … I mean how far do you want to go … they are coming into our house and terrorizing now and using this kind of language …”

Ultimately, he asks: “What does religion have to do with the burglary that I have called in?”

It seems as though religion had everything to do with it.  He remembers one poignant moment when he saw the “face of racism” in its most hurtful and discriminatory form:

“ … I was sitting in the back of the patrol car and there is a cop standing outside of that and I could still hear them and they brought my sister in with handcuffs and they put her on the floor in the middle of the street … one of them asks her did you hear about the bombings in Bombay … wow this is how the mind-process of individuals who are doing this stuff works …”

Police brutality based on racial/religious profiling is unfortunately common police.  We know of horrible cases of police profiling Black men.  It also happens often with Punjabi and Latino males along with turbaned Sikh men.  A lot of these cases happen when they are pulled over when driving. But now we see it happening in Sikhs own homes where mothers and sisters are also being attacked for practicing Sikhi.

A new-blog has been created to document and take action against Police Brutality On Sikhs across the world.  Check it out and report incidents of these crimes.

The Sheriff’s Department needs to take action on this issue immediately.  An apology would just be the beginning. Honestly, how threatening can a 60-something year old Auntie be to Sheriff’s Officers that they need to handcuff her and put her in a SEPARATE patrol car.  It’s not her; it’s their perception of her family’s faith.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9143120838984511550

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128 Responses to “Sikh Family In Texas Victims Of Police Brutality”

  1. John Voxx says:

    The Sikh Centre,

    I haven't spoken a lie anywhere. Scroll back on page 1 and refer to my reply to a poster called Punjaban where she called me a Troll. I did explain her of my background. I am an American National as well besides being a German Citizen. I am of the Indian origin. Why are you freaking out? I do not hate anyone its your thinking that is playing tricks on you.

    I am writing about an incident about a Sikh family in US and I presumed that Langar Hall is also an American website dealing mainly with issues taking overseas (not India) – so, in here I spoke about my rights pertaining to the cyber territory I am in and also the rights I have as an American citizen – you can not hold anything that I have written as libelous and vexatious. Why would I flash my German rights here with you? All the western democracies have similar laws except when it comes to the capital crime – in US its way different than what we have here in Europe.

    Why are you getting exhausted when I am the one who is doing all the writing ? You do not like it, take a rest – do not read my posts.

    Accept my concerns and apology for speaking the truth.

  2. @ John Voxx
    Another presumption, my friend. I am not surprised. But the degree to which you seem deluded is apparent from your claims to "speaking the truth" while all you have done is assume and presume.

    If you are honest and seek truth, let us start the discussion again. Respond to the following:
    1. Second amendment allows bearing of arms.
    2. Has there ever been any incident where a person who called in the police to report a crime was arrested for carrying a weapon lest the criminal be around?
    3. If a follower of Judaism calls the police to report a robbery and is found to be wearing his yarmulke, which the police "confuse" with Muslim kufi and start treating the person as a terrorist. The person (already stressed for being a victim of a crime) starts to feel being victimized again by police, and tries to argue his case, which police take as unruly behaviour or "resisting orders", handcuff the person and take them to police station. The person files a complaint and at the same time the Jewish community is outraged and express it outrage to the authorities demanding investigation of whether the actions were deliberate anti-semitism; it also seeks education of all officers to prevent a similar thing happening in future. Would you agree with this course of action?

  3. @ John Voxx
    Another presumption, my friend. I am not surprised. But the degree to which you seem deluded is apparent from your claims to "speaking the truth" while all you have done is assume and presume.

    If you are honest and seek truth, let us start the discussion again. Respond to the following:
    1. Second amendment allows bearing of arms.
    2. Has there ever been any incident where a person who called in the police to report a crime was arrested for carrying a weapon lest the criminal be around?
    3. If a follower of Judaism calls the police to report a robbery and is found to be wearing his yarmulke, which the police "confuse" with Muslim kufi and start treating the person as a terrorist. The person (already stressed for being a victim of a crime) starts to feel being victimized again by police, and tries to argue his case, which police take as unruly behaviour or "resisting orders", handcuff the person and take them to police station. The person files a complaint and at the same time the Jewish community is outraged and express it outrage to the authorities demanding investigation of whether the actions were deliberate anti-semitism; it also seeks education of all officers to prevent a similar thing happening in future. Would you agree with this course of action?

  4. John Voxx says:

    The Sikh Centre,

    Good Morning to you – Its 0630 in the morning here in Germany and I am happy to see a reply from you that signals a freeze in Ad hominem from your side. Lets thrash it out. You are in for a long one as I am not a concise gifted writer.

    Right from your first post it is you who has been presuming yourself endlessly and accusing me of the same – it was you who presumed that I was either one of the cops or one their lawyers – How the hell did you assume such a preposterous thing – No white Texan and that too an officer of law would even dream to visit Langar hall that has nothing in common with whatever they do ? You have been assuming that I am not of the background I am claiming to be from – I have explicitly explained as to who I am and the background I have – you are presuming whatever suits you in order to discredit me ?
    As suggested by you, I agree to restart the discussion.

    You have asked me to respond on three points.

    1. Second amendment allows bearing of Arms.

    Agreed BUT there is a twist to it. Refer Miller Vs Texas and its verdict.

    In Miller v. Texas, 153 U.S. 535 (1894), Franklin Miller was convicted and sentenced to death for shooting a police officer to death using a handgun, in violation of Texas law.

    Miller sought to have his conviction overturned, claiming his Second Amendment rights were violated and that the Bill of Rights should be incorporated to state law. The Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment DID NOT APPLY TO STATE LAWS SUCH AS TEXAS OWN LAWS.

    Now lets see TEXAS state law pertaining to bearing the arms:

    According to the 1876 Texas Constitution: "Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the state; BUT THE LEGISLATURE SHALL HAVE THE POWER BY LAW TO REGULATE THE WEARING OF ARMS.

    Officers obtained an affidavit charged him with carrying weapons, cursing, and swearing. Regarding the weapons charge, he was arrested for violating a statute entitled, "An Act to Regulate the Keeping and Bearing of Deadly Weapons," which read in pertinent part:

    Any person carrying on or about his person any weapon for the purpose of offense or defense, unless he has reasonable grounds for fearing an unlawful attack on his person, and that such ground of attack shall be immediate and pressing . . . shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

    The net is full of this episode – check it out yourself . I am not from Texas but this region is special and one has to be very careful while assuming many things for granted once you live here. I am sure in there somewhere lies the answer to Tagore Ordeal.

    2. There have been many incidents where the criminals have reported the break in in order to claim their staged robbery or theft benefits from insurances. Also other crimes such as a mothers drowned her own infant and informed police that someone hijacked her car and baby too or a mother ate her own baby after killing her – http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2009/08/01/otty_

    Cops have to deal with all kinds of criminals and Tagore residence must have provoked them to think accordingly especially where the men masked their faces (all of them had turbans and facial hair) and women carried side arms in the presence of the Cops ! To answer your question – no, there are no cases I have heard where the caller is arrested for carrying the weapons and thats why I think that Tagores have done something collectively to flare up the situation and if you ask a non Sikh to look at the situation neutrally then my assumption is highly plausible.

    3. Red Herring ! The caller was not a Jew. Jews gallivant in their black robes and flowing beards and funny locks and knitted Yarmulke all across the United States and almost every one in the US knows what a Jew is and how he looks like. There are many senators at the capitol hill who wear yarmulke and can be seen daily on the news – while people wearing turbans and flowing beards who have been slitting throats of the US citizens ( Berg, Daniel pearl), bombing planes and 9/11 resemble Sikhs closely. I would like to repeat again – I am not saying that Sikhs are doing all those heinous crimes but they can be mistaken as terrorists or violent people – especially where even their women carry daggers that can kill?

  5. John Voxx says:

    The Sikh Centre,

    Good Morning to you – Its 0630 in the morning here in Germany and I am happy to see a reply from you that signals a freeze in Ad hominem from your side. Lets thrash it out. You are in for a long one as I am not a concise gifted writer.

    Right from your first post it is you who has been presuming yourself endlessly and accusing me of the same – it was you who presumed that I was either one of the cops or one their lawyers – How the hell did you assume such a preposterous thing – No white Texan and that too an officer of law would even dream to visit Langar hall that has nothing in common with whatever they do ? You have been assuming that I am not of the background I am claiming to be from – I have explicitly explained as to who I am and the background I have – you are presuming whatever suits you in order to discredit me ?
    As suggested by you, I agree to restart the discussion.

    You have asked me to respond on three points.

    1. Second amendment allows bearing of Arms.

    Agreed BUT there is a twist to it. Refer Miller Vs Texas and its verdict.

    In Miller v. Texas, 153 U.S. 535 (1894), Franklin Miller was convicted and sentenced to death for shooting a police officer to death using a handgun, in violation of Texas law.

    Miller sought to have his conviction overturned, claiming his Second Amendment rights were violated and that the Bill of Rights should be incorporated to state law. The Supreme Court ruled that the Second Amendment DID NOT APPLY TO STATE LAWS SUCH AS TEXAS OWN LAWS.

    Now lets see TEXAS state law pertaining to bearing the arms:

    According to the 1876 Texas Constitution: "Every citizen shall have the right to keep and bear arms in the lawful defense of himself or the state; BUT THE LEGISLATURE SHALL HAVE THE POWER BY LAW TO REGULATE THE WEARING OF ARMS.

    Officers obtained an affidavit charged him with carrying weapons, cursing, and swearing. Regarding the weapons charge, he was arrested for violating a statute entitled, "An Act to Regulate the Keeping and Bearing of Deadly Weapons," which read in pertinent part:

    Any person carrying on or about his person any weapon for the purpose of offense or defense, unless he has reasonable grounds for fearing an unlawful attack on his person, and that such ground of attack shall be immediate and pressing . . . shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

    The net is full of this episode – check it out yourself . I am not from Texas but this region is special and one has to be very careful while assuming many things for granted once you live here. I am sure in there somewhere lies the answer to Tagore Ordeal.

    2. There have been many incidents where the criminals have reported the break in in order to claim their staged robbery or theft benefits from insurances. Also other crimes such as a mothers drowned her own infant and informed police that someone hijacked her car and baby too or a mother ate her own baby after killing her – http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2009/08/01/otty_

    Cops have to deal with all kinds of criminals and Tagore residence must have provoked them to think accordingly especially where the men masked their faces (all of them had turbans and facial hair) and women carried side arms in the presence of the Cops ! To answer your question – no, there are no cases I have heard where the caller is arrested for carrying the weapons and thats why I think that Tagores have done something collectively to flare up the situation and if you ask a non Sikh to look at the situation neutrally then my assumption is highly plausible.

    3. Red Herring ! The caller was not a Jew. Jews gallivant in their black robes and flowing beards and funny locks and knitted Yarmulke all across the United States and almost every one in the US knows what a Jew is and how he looks like. There are many senators at the capitol hill who wear yarmulke and can be seen daily on the news – while people wearing turbans and flowing beards who have been slitting throats of the US citizens ( Berg, Daniel pearl), bombing planes and 9/11 resemble Sikhs closely. I would like to repeat again – I am not saying that Sikhs are doing all those heinous crimes but they can be mistaken as terrorists or violent people – especially where even their women carry daggers that can kill?

  6. @ John Voxx
    "It is 5.33am in Dallas, and I have just woken up to your delusional droning."
    "It is 8.33pm in Osaka and I have just come home to your tiresome rants."
    "It is 12.33pm in "Germany" and I am looking at your piffle in my lunch time."

    You are so full of it.

  7. @ John Voxx
    "It is 5.33am in Dallas, and I have just woken up to your delusional droning."
    "It is 8.33pm in Osaka and I have just come home to your tiresome rants."
    "It is 12.33pm in "Germany" and I am looking at your piffle in my lunch time."

    You are so full of it.

  8. @ John Voxx
    1. If the second amendment has a "twist" it is not what you refer to — which just shows that you are talking of issues that you hardly understand. If you have heard of the fourteenth amendment then attention to this: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
    Now go to Cantwell v. Connecticut and the clarification that first amendment protected religious practitioners against restrictions at the state, local as well as federal levels. Get it? Which ever way you look at it, no amount of twisting of 1st 2nd or 14th amendments will justify any of your rants.

    2. You are so so pathetic. Although all your posts appeal to prejudice and biase of your own ilk, the second takes the mud cake. Now eat it.

    3. So you do agree that a Jew can never be mistaken for a Muslim because American public and Policemen know the difference between a yarmulke and a kufi from its visibility — from which may be concluded that there is a need to educate the police officers about the difference between a Sikh turban and one that bin Laden's ilk wear, in order to avoid the incident like one that involved the Tagores ever happening again :-) Q.E.D.

  9. @ John Voxx
    1. If the second amendment has a "twist" it is not what you refer to — which just shows that you are talking of issues that you hardly understand. If you have heard of the fourteenth amendment then attention to this: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
    Now go to Cantwell v. Connecticut and the clarification that first amendment protected religious practitioners against restrictions at the state, local as well as federal levels. Get it? Which ever way you look at it, no amount of twisting of 1st 2nd or 14th amendments will justify any of your rants.

    2. You are so so pathetic. Although all your posts appeal to prejudice and biase of your own ilk, the second takes the mud cake. Now eat it.

    3. So you do agree that a Jew can never be mistaken for a Muslim because American public and Policemen know the difference between a yarmulke and a kufi from its visibility — from which may be concluded that there is a need to educate the police officers about the difference between a Sikh turban and one that bin Laden's ilk wear, in order to avoid the incident like one that involved the Tagores ever happening again :-) Q.E.D.

  10. John Voxx says:

    continued ….

    Coming to the last part of your point 3 – I do agree that if these officers should be fired if the version Tagores have given is true but my question to you is what if Tagores are collectively lying ? Do you want to have the officers of law fired for being innocent?

    If so true is the incident as alleged then how come we have not seen any action or Internal affairs investigations? I am sure that District Attorney has dismissed the case as BS otherwise we would have heard of some more development on this from the media. By now we would have also seen Tagores pasting their victory if Tagores had succeeded !

    Are you aware that there were not one or two officers at Tagores residence once the commotion started – there were more than dozen deputies who had swarmed the Tagore residence http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/… ! All the officers of law must have seen Tagores belligerent threatening demeanor and the cache of weapons ( we have seen Sardarnis with Kirpans and Ramandeep with a Sabre ) that has sadly played against them.

    Another thing that plays against Tagores here is that they were all born in India and came to Texas only 20 years ago – they have spent their formation years in India – it means they are equipped of being crafty to cook up such a scenario and seek sympathies from everyone.

    In my eyes, we should have seen more to this case then one weblink here another there as if nothing has happened at all. Tagores got robbed, police came and Tagores saw the inside of a jail house and Sikh community is flared up ! What happened to the friendly Super cop Garcia who took over as friendly Sheriff and promised to investigate? I saw also his video where he was invited by the Sikh community to a Gurdwara and heard everything patiently and despite of being anti previous Sheriff and friendly to the SIkh community we have not heard anything from him ? Care to find it out please? Why has there been almost no news on it if this is such a big case of miscarriage of justice?

  11. John Voxx says:

    continued ….

    Coming to the last part of your point 3 – I do agree that if these officers should be fired if the version Tagores have given is true but my question to you is what if Tagores are collectively lying ? Do you want to have the officers of law fired for being innocent?

    If so true is the incident as alleged then how come we have not seen any action or Internal affairs investigations? I am sure that District Attorney has dismissed the case as BS otherwise we would have heard of some more development on this from the media. By now we would have also seen Tagores pasting their victory if Tagores had succeeded !

    Are you aware that there were not one or two officers at Tagores residence once the commotion started – there were more than dozen deputies who had swarmed the Tagore residence http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/… ! All the officers of law must have seen Tagores belligerent threatening demeanor and the cache of weapons ( we have seen Sardarnis with Kirpans and Ramandeep with a Sabre ) that has sadly played against them.

    Another thing that plays against Tagores here is that they were all born in India and came to Texas only 20 years ago – they have spent their formation years in India – it means they are equipped of being crafty to cook up such a scenario and seek sympathies from everyone.

    In my eyes, we should have seen more to this case then one weblink here another there as if nothing has happened at all. Tagores got robbed, police came and Tagores saw the inside of a jail house and Sikh community is flared up ! What happened to the friendly Super cop Garcia who took over as friendly Sheriff and promised to investigate? I saw also his video where he was invited by the Sikh community to a Gurdwara and heard everything patiently and despite of being anti previous Sheriff and friendly to the SIkh community we have not heard anything from him ? Care to find it out please? Why has there been almost no news on it if this is such a big case of miscarriage of justice?

  12. John Voxx says:

    The Sikh Centre,

    Right from your first post you have been busy calling me Deluded and labeling my postal contents as piffle along with terming me as a pathetic individual full with prejudice and bias. It signals only one thing – that, you are shaken up with the facts I have presented and they do make sense or you wouldn't have stuck on to this issue for so long and especially considering that you have never posted any other post under this name on this forum? You are someone who is directly affected by this Tagore episode and have vested interest in its outcome. You are basically indicating from the cyber name you have chosen that you are not one individual but a collective voice of the Sikh community and want to endorse your views unopposed as you happen to be in The Langar Hall where only Sikhs write.

    Signalling the end of discussion from your side ( Quod Erat Demonstrandum) is at best laughable and I will not rub it in your face to shame you but pay attention to the following points to rethink as what you and your ilk thinks is of no consequence as these issues are now in the US and will be dealt within the framework of its law.

    I will make my closing statement to you since you have ceased to continue.

    Pay attention to the following important points.

    a) During an interview with Lindsay Wise of Houston Chronicle Ramandeep mentioned Quote "It just looked like he didn't want to be there," he said. "I sensed a little uneasiness from him." Unquote http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/

    This is an important fact as it is his own statement – the Deputy was uneasy as he saw things that made him Damn Uneasy and (watch this) "HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE THERE" ? If he Didn't want to be there then how come he stayed back and not only stayed back but pointed a taser gun and Kawaljeet's head and called for a backup? Why would he bundle up an unkempt man handcuffed in the back of his car who could have unpleasant body odor especially when he simply Didn't want to be there? This Deputy could have lost it but by the time all Tagores were bundled up to a Jail house it was an act of not a lone crazed gung-ho deputy but a posse of over dozen officers!

    2) Why was senior Tagore not taken to the Jail house ? Why was he left out ? Has anyone asked that? It was his frail old mother who saw the inside of a jail house just because officers hated her for being old and a foreign born? Ramandeep's father was excluded from this round up and there is a reason for it – find that out.

    3) When you all invite people to your Gurdwaras, may he be a state head or some VIP, you expect him to follow your rituals or you get pissed. Ramandeep should have understood that he was in Texas, a home to those cops as they were the natives, and he should have respected their ways of life first.

    4) What was the charge being read to Tagores before they were handcuffed and booked? Why are you not looking in to this aspect? This is the key to the whole issue as it literally exonerates the cops of any wrong doing and puts the blames on lucky-to-be-free Tagores.

    5) Why the new Super cop Garcia , the new Sheriff, has not supported Tagores in their quest to seek an apology from the cops and fire the guilty ones? He did say that it was too early for him as he was only a Sheriff elect but he would investigate ! Where is the accountability of this? I am sure that elders from concerned Sikh community must have met Garcia many times after he was invited to the Gurdwara and coxed to take punitive actions – what is the outcome? Why is there a lull on that issue? Garcia could have initiated Internal Affairs especially there was an alleged constitutional rights violation if he was so concerned about Tagores? I am sure Garcia was also convinced that Tagores were lying or masking the crucial information that led to them in a jail house.

    continued ……….

  13. John Voxx says:

    The Sikh Centre,

    Right from your first post you have been busy calling me Deluded and labeling my postal contents as piffle along with terming me as a pathetic individual full with prejudice and bias. It signals only one thing – that, you are shaken up with the facts I have presented and they do make sense or you wouldn't have stuck on to this issue for so long and especially considering that you have never posted any other post under this name on this forum? You are someone who is directly affected by this Tagore episode and have vested interest in its outcome. You are basically indicating from the cyber name you have chosen that you are not one individual but a collective voice of the Sikh community and want to endorse your views unopposed as you happen to be in The Langar Hall where only Sikhs write.

    Signalling the end of discussion from your side ( Quod Erat Demonstrandum) is at best laughable and I will not rub it in your face to shame you but pay attention to the following points to rethink as what you and your ilk thinks is of no consequence as these issues are now in the US and will be dealt within the framework of its law.

    I will make my closing statement to you since you have ceased to continue.

    Pay attention to the following important points.

    a) During an interview with Lindsay Wise of Houston Chronicle Ramandeep mentioned Quote "It just looked like he didn't want to be there," he said. "I sensed a little uneasiness from him." Unquote http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/

    This is an important fact as it is his own statement – the Deputy was uneasy as he saw things that made him Damn Uneasy and (watch this) "HE DIDN'T WANT TO BE THERE" ? If he Didn't want to be there then how come he stayed back and not only stayed back but pointed a taser gun and Kawaljeet's head and called for a backup? Why would he bundle up an unkempt man handcuffed in the back of his car who could have unpleasant body odor especially when he simply Didn't want to be there? This Deputy could have lost it but by the time all Tagores were bundled up to a Jail house it was an act of not a lone crazed gung-ho deputy but a posse of over dozen officers!

    2) Why was senior Tagore not taken to the Jail house ? Why was he left out ? Has anyone asked that? It was his frail old mother who saw the inside of a jail house just because officers hated her for being old and a foreign born? Ramandeep's father was excluded from this round up and there is a reason for it – find that out.

    3) When you all invite people to your Gurdwaras, may he be a state head or some VIP, you expect him to follow your rituals or you get pissed. Ramandeep should have understood that he was in Texas, a home to those cops as they were the natives, and he should have respected their ways of life first.

    4) What was the charge being read to Tagores before they were handcuffed and booked? Why are you not looking in to this aspect? This is the key to the whole issue as it literally exonerates the cops of any wrong doing and puts the blames on lucky-to-be-free Tagores.

    5) Why the new Super cop Garcia , the new Sheriff, has not supported Tagores in their quest to seek an apology from the cops and fire the guilty ones? He did say that it was too early for him as he was only a Sheriff elect but he would investigate ! Where is the accountability of this? I am sure that elders from concerned Sikh community must have met Garcia many times after he was invited to the Gurdwara and coxed to take punitive actions – what is the outcome? Why is there a lull on that issue? Garcia could have initiated Internal Affairs especially there was an alleged constitutional rights violation if he was so concerned about Tagores? I am sure Garcia was also convinced that Tagores were lying or masking the crucial information that led to them in a jail house.

    continued ……….

  14. @John Voxx
    Back to your assuming and presuming self I see :-)
    QED — it signals my point being demonstrated by your argument. Literally, "which was to be demonstrated". It does not mean that I have signalled an end to responding to any further piffle from your end 😉

    Here is another demonstration of your delusional rants. You write, and I quote:
    "1. You are someone who is directly affected by this Tagore episode and have vested interest in its outcome.
    "2. You are basically indicating from the cyber name you have chosen that you are not one individual but a collective voice of the Sikh community and want to endorse your views unopposed as you happen to be in The Langar Hall where only Sikhs write."

    In brief my response is — [email protected]#ll s$%t. In detail:
    1. You only had to click on my name to go to the blog and know that I do not even live in USA and I am pretty sure that going through the blog content you would know that I cannot have anything to do with the Tagores on a personal level.
    2. The name is self-explanatory if you visit the blog.

    There you go Mr Presumptuous — take the falsity of your assumptions as an indication of how far you are from reality.

    I am assuming that the "continued…….." at the end of your piffle means you will be dealing with the 1st, 2nd and 14th amendments as well as your self-defeating response to my yarmulke and kufi analogy (remember QED?!). But of course, my assumption may be completely wrong and you might come back with from piffle from the vast deposit you carry :-)

  15. @John Voxx
    Back to your assuming and presuming self I see :-)
    QED — it signals my point being demonstrated by your argument. Literally, "which was to be demonstrated". It does not mean that I have signalled an end to responding to any further piffle from your end 😉

    Here is another demonstration of your delusional rants. You write, and I quote:
    "1. You are someone who is directly affected by this Tagore episode and have vested interest in its outcome.
    "2. You are basically indicating from the cyber name you have chosen that you are not one individual but a collective voice of the Sikh community and want to endorse your views unopposed as you happen to be in The Langar Hall where only Sikhs write."

    In brief my response is — [email protected]#ll s$%t. In detail:
    1. You only had to click on my name to go to the blog and know that I do not even live in USA and I am pretty sure that going through the blog content you would know that I cannot have anything to do with the Tagores on a personal level.
    2. The name is self-explanatory if you visit the blog.

    There you go Mr Presumptuous — take the falsity of your assumptions as an indication of how far you are from reality.

    I am assuming that the "continued…….." at the end of your piffle means you will be dealing with the 1st, 2nd and 14th amendments as well as your self-defeating response to my yarmulke and kufi analogy (remember QED?!). But of course, my assumption may be completely wrong and you might come back with from piffle from the vast deposit you carry :-)

  16. John Voxx says:

    There is a new thread on the Langar Hall – ( http://thelangarhall.com/general/enjoy-the-show-b… ) and its titled Enjoy The Show But Leave Your Kirpan At Home !

    Irony is that show would start with the requisite dharmak songs,and singer Gurdas Maan’s tribute to Guru Gobind Singh and his contributions to Sikhi – Amritdharis would have a problem with leaving the Kirpans home if they want to attend this show.

    When the Organizers of Gurdas Man concert are SIkhs, Gurdas as well, then how can we expect Sheriff from refraining Kawaljeet to wear a Kirpan ? Tagores invited Cops in to their home and it was a crime scene – Now its the prerogative of the Police to call the shots and Tagores should have understood this.

  17. John Voxx says:

    There is a new thread on the Langar Hall – ( http://thelangarhall.com/general/enjoy-the-show-b… ) and its titled Enjoy The Show But Leave Your Kirpan At Home !

    Irony is that show would start with the requisite dharmak songs,and singer Gurdas Maan’s tribute to Guru Gobind Singh and his contributions to Sikhi – Amritdharis would have a problem with leaving the Kirpans home if they want to attend this show.

    When the Organizers of Gurdas Man concert are SIkhs, Gurdas as well, then how can we expect Sheriff from refraining Kawaljeet to wear a Kirpan ? Tagores invited Cops in to their home and it was a crime scene – Now its the prerogative of the Police to call the shots and Tagores should have understood this.

  18. Harinder says:

    He needs an answer Mr Sikh Centre ! LOL might give you a comfort here but looks like that you have been sequestered but to us you are looking embarrassed and defeated!

    • @ Harinder
      If you are saying Mr John Voxx "needs an answer" then my friend you need to ask him to answer my questions asked in response to what he has been writing. My laughter is in response to his response to my response :-) It was laughable (at least to me) that rather than discuss what the US constitution might say (if tested in a court of law) about the Sikhs' (like Tagores) rights, Mr Voxx goes at a tangent (yet again) and introduces "another thread" into this discussion — to do what? To take the discussion on rights of an individual to the silly "debate" between practising and non-practicing Sikhs about "who is more committed to walking Guru's path".
      I am happy to discuss that in the thread to which Mr Voxx refers — but I won't do that to prove a point that is not even mine :-)
      Regarding "embarrassment" and "defeat" — if that is how I sound to you I have no problem with that. However, the issue still remains that Mr Voxx has characterized the practising section of the Sikh community ( (including historical personages and incidents concerning their fight for equal rights) in all possible negative shades without any logical or supporting evidence. Unless he can do that whatever he writes will elicit only laughter :-)

  19. Harinder says:

    He needs an answer Mr Sikh Centre ! LOL might give you a comfort here but looks like that you have been sequestered but to us you are looking embarrassed and defeated!

    • @ Harinder
      If you are saying Mr John Voxx "needs an answer" then my friend you need to ask him to answer my questions asked in response to what he has been writing. My laughter is in response to his response to my response :-) It was laughable (at least to me) that rather than discuss what the US constitution might say (if tested in a court of law) about the Sikhs' (like Tagores) rights, Mr Voxx goes at a tangent (yet again) and introduces "another thread" into this discussion — to do what? To take the discussion on rights of an individual to the silly "debate" between practising and non-practicing Sikhs about "who is more committed to walking Guru's path".
      I am happy to discuss that in the thread to which Mr Voxx refers — but I won't do that to prove a point that is not even mine :-)
      Regarding "embarrassment" and "defeat" — if that is how I sound to you I have no problem with that. However, the issue still remains that Mr Voxx has characterized the practising section of the Sikh community ( (including historical personages and incidents concerning their fight for equal rights) in all possible negative shades without any logical or supporting evidence. Unless he can do that whatever he writes will elicit only laughter :-)

  20. You Know Who says:

    Sikh Centre,

    I just realized that show was in April in 2009 – still, the issue and relevance is same and we are talking about Kirpan not being allowed in function organized by Sikhs, of Sikhs and for Sikhs !

    For reasons known to the management of this forum, some high powered material in my posts meant for my second part of the previous long post is not being allowed to appear or it would have been a slam dunk case for all involved in Tagore episode, including you.

    I have realized that constitutional discussion is way beyond your level so I have made it easy for you understand my response – literally making it like C -A -T- Cat means Billi D – O -G – Dog Means Kutta !

  21. You Know Who says:

    Sikh Centre,

    I just realized that show was in April in 2009 – still, the issue and relevance is same and we are talking about Kirpan not being allowed in function organized by Sikhs, of Sikhs and for Sikhs !

    For reasons known to the management of this forum, some high powered material in my posts meant for my second part of the previous long post is not being allowed to appear or it would have been a slam dunk case for all involved in Tagore episode, including you.

    I have realized that constitutional discussion is way beyond your level so I have made it easy for you understand my response – literally making it like C -A -T- Cat means Billi D – O -G – Dog Means Kutta !

  22. @ John Voxx a.k.a. "You Know Who" [a.k.a. Harinder??]
    N-A-Z-I means Jews either "assimilate", give up their Jewishness or wear Star of David and die horrible deaths in gas chambers.
    V-H-P/R-S-S means Sikhs either "assimilate", give up signs of their distinct identity or be maligned as terrorists and die in "false encounters" or now-a-days be treated as less than human.

    For further simplification, an extremist is one who seeks to limit others' choices and tries to foist one's own worldview on those who may look different or think differently or speak different language.

  23. @ John Voxx a.k.a. "You Know Who" [a.k.a. Harinder??]
    N-A-Z-I means Jews either "assimilate", give up their Jewishness or wear Star of David and die horrible deaths in gas chambers.
    V-H-P/R-S-S means Sikhs either "assimilate", give up signs of their distinct identity or be maligned as terrorists and die in "false encounters" or now-a-days be treated as less than human.

    For further simplification, an extremist is one who seeks to limit others' choices and tries to foist one's own worldview on those who may look different or think differently or speak different language.