Indian Government representatives at Sikh Events
Guest blog by: Rocco
One of the highlights of fall in NYC is the Sikh Arts and Film Festival which showcases the story of our community via films and is being held November 2-3, 2012. Along with that is a Heritage Gala which is being held November 3, 2012 “to celebrate the rich heritage, culture and traditions of the Sikhs.” In the past dignitaries and business leaders have been selected as Chief Guest and Guest of Honors. Unfortunately, The Chief Guest this year is Nirupama Rao, India’s Ambassador to the United States and the Guest of Honors include Prabhu Dayal, Consul General India, New York and Hardeep Puri, India’s Permanent Representative to the United Nations.
For some, Sikhs having Indian Government representatives as honorees poses no conflict and should be encouraged. One may argue that the attack on Darbar Sahib and Genocide in 1984 are distant events that occurred twenty eight years ago and should be forgotten. One may argue that the civil war which ensued for ten years afterwards in Panjab and led to the death of the tens of thousands of Sikh youth were collateral damage and justifiable in order to preserve the unity of India. One may argue that that struggle for an independent Panjab has reached its nadir and it’s important to “re-Indianize” ourselves and take advantage of the current economic environment.
However the recent Rajoana hanging episode (his sentence was deferred but not commuted), continuing impunity for politicians involved in the 1984 Delhi Genocide, promotion of Sumedh Saini (“Panjab’s Dirty Harry”) to DGP of Panjab and electing former DSP Izhar Alam’s (Alam Sena) wife as an Akali Dal candidate points to recent attempts to stamp out any remnants of Sikh sovereignty as well as the continuing denial of accountability of human rights abuses committed by India.
After the Oak Creek Massacre, Sikhs in the US have united to make sure our rights are better protected, yet little attention is given to events in India over the past 28 years. Though a Film Festival may not be the ideal venue to bring up these issues, honoring officials of a country that has caused so much destruction to our community goes directly against the ethos of our rich heritage, culture and tradition which is based on justice, goodwill and helping those that cannot help themselves. Rather the invitation of the Indian officials smacks in the face these universal values and sends a message of impunity and lack of accountability. The recent US District Court’s summons for visiting Punjab Chief Minister Prakash Singh Badal on the charges of police custodial torture and shielding police officers may not have teeth but any time we can restrict the movement of Indian politicians in the West we put them on notice that they have to abide by the standards of international law. In my humble opinion, the Sikh Film Festival committee should not invite Indian dignitaries to their venue but rather urge them to bring about changes in India to help all suffering minorities including Muslims, Christians and Dalits.
64 Responses to “Indian Government representatives at Sikh Events”
With the recent controversy about building a memorial to 1984, I noticed there is organized anti Sikh propaganda, in the media and on the blogs. There are people trying to condemn the idea as encouraging separatists, without one word about rights abuses of Sikhs and govt sponsored mass killings. It appears like not many Sikhs are fighting back and responding to these attacks. I believe it is coming from supporters of cong leaders who are involved in the anti Sikh riots.
The congress Government is on back foot . To win the next elections they are back to, creating a false alam of Sikh Terrorists, they think all Hindus will vote for them if they start beating the Sikhs. Sikhs should be careful, this is difficult time again.
"false alarm of Sikh terrorists"? I don't think holocaust denial is helping the neo-fascists in pushing their perverse agenda. a similar denial of 15 years of terror in Punjab would not help anyone except those sitting across the border waiting to resume bleeding India through a thousands cuts.
In my opinion, those who have the well-being of Sikhi, and India, at heart should campaign for something like South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission.
Also, Dalit (really?) Singhji, going by your logic, Sikhs start beating Hindus (and other minority faiths) in Punjab to get Sikhs' votes. Is that correct? Is panth in danger once again?
Hindus voting for congress?? hindus themselves are fed up of congress.
i just came to this website. but i am disappointed by the content. it provides one sided narrative and also at times reeks of anti-india and anti-hinduism.
for 1984 , hindus are blamed instead of congress , as if it was the common hindu man and not congress party workers doing the killing.
since sikhs talk so much about 1984 , how do they forget 1989??
yep , kashmir 1989, 4 lakh hindus forced out of kashmir as the hands of muslims. 20,000 hindus killed brutally. so my sikh brothers , where is the justice for us??
i first came to understand this anti-hindu feeling of sikhs when i was in high school. i wasnt even born in 1984. but somehow , sikh kids in my class, whom i always saw as friend , never used to see me as an equal. i was a jatt to them , but i was a hindu jat u see?
i want to ask all those sikhs who dislike hindus , have u ever read guru granth sahib?
can u deny , 2000 references to ram and krishna in it ? can u deny chandi di vaar written by guru gobind singh ji??
can u deny maharaja ranjit singh doing ganga snaan?
can u deny that north indian hindu families wud raise their first son as a sikh under mughal oppression?
no u cant. no amount of khalistani propaganda can ever re-write guru granth sahib history
our faith and our history is one and same. em omkar. one intertwined existence.
no amount of hate and no bhindranwala can deny this.
anyways, i know its futile and perhaps my comment will even be deleted. but anyways…im out.
Peace,
ur hindu brother
@ Charanjit ji which blog you are referring to? There was one article by a prominent columnist Kanchan Gupta 'Who's stirring the Khalistani pot in Punjab?' but he clearly mentions "…Congress goons were out in the streets of Delhi (and other cities and towns) extracting a terrible, blood-curdling ‘revenge’: More than 3,000 Sikhs were massacred in Delhi alone."
http://www.mid-day.com/columnists/2012/oct/131012…
Get over your delusions sir, no one has got time to organise "anti-Sikh propaganda" . Hindus are much more mature than, unfortunately, Sikhs who elect communal coalition of Akalis-BJP with such sickening reguarity.
"Hindus are much more mature than, unfortunately, Sikhs who elect communal coalition of Akalis-BJP with such sickening reguarity…" that is the most absurd statement I have ever read….more mature? For continually voting in the Congress party who is hell bent on looting India (corruption case after corruption case), for having an 'Italian' running the country, for having 600m people who still defecate in the streets and no one thinks this is a problem, still believing in stones and idols, feeding milk to rats, drinking cow urine. Are you for real, Sher?
Meena, You may have some reasons which make you so bitter about everything Indian/Hindu.
As far as corruption by Indian politician is concerned, it is not specific to Congress. Have a look at what Akalis (along with their BJP friends) have been doing in Punjab. Badals assets valued at 1000s of crores. Amrinder Singh in Punjab Congress no better. Look at DMK in Tamil Nadu, Mayawati/SP in UP, Laloo Yadav in Bihar, etc. They are not Congress but still have weak moral fiber.
I seem to have touched some raw nerve by pointing out the voting patterns of the Punjab Sikhs (read Jats) who vote for communal coalition which has also made corruption into an art form. The same coalition is now busy stoking militancy once again to serve their heinous agenda.
As far as Italian running the country is concerned, Indians are used to the foreign rule so that is not an aberration 🙂 before you throw that cheap insult of '1000 saal di ghulami' on me let me caution you that such slights can be counterproductive.
600m people defecating in the open… well, it is a problem so what those people should do till some solution (more resources) is found? stop relieving themselves as meena finds it highly offensive?
still believing in stones and idols…
grow up Meena, beliefs are beliefs. If you ridicule someone "believing in stone and idols" others can find your search for spirituality by deifying pothis or 5 kakkars equally weird. feeding milk to rats is, in my opinion, as ridiculous as washing floors with mlik. cow urine… well, i have never gone down that path or have never come across anyone serving such bovine beverage.
Talking about stones and idols…help me in interpreting the following tukks (Adi Granth page 393, 5th Guru):
????????? ????? ???? ?
????????? ????? ???? ?
S?lgir?m ham?rai sev?.
Such is the Saalagraam, the stone idol, which I serve;
???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?
???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?
P?j? arc?? ban?an ?ev?. ||1|| rah??o.
such is my worship, flower-offerings and divine adoration as well. ||1||Pause||
???? ?? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?
???? ?? ?? ????? ??? ???? ?
G?ant? j? k? sun??ai c?ahu kunt.
His bell resounds to the four corners of the world.
???? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ?
???? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ?
?san j? k? sa?? baikun??.
His seat is forever in heaven
……
???? ???? ??? ????????? ?
???? ???? ??? ????????? ?
H?th c?a?i?o har s?lgir?m.
I hold in my hands the Saalagraam of the Lord.
??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????????
??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ?????????
Kaho N?nak gur k?no ??n. ||4||39||90||
Says Nanak, the Guru has given me this Gift. ||4||39||90||
Why Guru is showing such reverence for "stones and idols"? Do you know something which Guru didn't?
I am too confused as everywhere I look in Adi Granth, I find theology exactly the same as in sanatan dharam pothis. How do we separate these two so that you have a panth which is TOTALLY free from Saligrams, Baikunths, Haris…listening to the Vedas, Puraanas, and Shaastras?
I better go and get my fix of chilled cow urine 😉
@ Sher, I believe my comments were around you posting the following remark:
Hindus are much more mature than, unfortunately, Sikhs who elect communal coalition of Akalis-BJP with such sickening reguarity…"…..
Your response above demonstrates anything but maturity by the Hindus (and I am afraid by yourself ).
a) Your first two paragraphs are a rant against the Sikhs and for some reason the Jats. If you are arguing that corruption exists among all the political parties what does that say about your "mature Hindus" and their Hindu culture….I believe it is 85% of the population?
b) With regards to an Italian running India you say "Indians are used to the foreign rule so that is not an aberration" Seriously? Are you telling me that the 'mature Hindus' are unable to rule the country themselves. That having an outsider make your political, economics and social decisions are as nation is a sign of maturity? Are they unable to bred one competent person within 85% of a 1.3b population ( you do the math on that)?
c) Defecation is part of the normal human process. We all do it. However 'mature' nations especially those that have been around for more than 60 years work on providing basic sanitation and dignity to their citizens. Mature nations use the money collected through taxes and other endeavors to provide basic necessities (food, health, education) to its poor not turn a blind eye and then blame the Pakistanis, Chinese, Sikhs or aliens from outer space for their problems.
d) On the belief comment…yes, you've got me on that. Beliefs are beliefs but they do give an insight into the evolution of the people following them. Compare belief and worship of stones lungums, idols and rats to the worship of a spiritual diety who is all seeing and all knowing…does that give you an insight?
e) I believe Mohandas Gandhi and PM Desi both drank cow urine. In fact the latter was mentioned in a Time article. I am sure you can google it. Drinking cow urine has been touted quite recently as your 'mature' Hindus want to make it commercially available in a can.
f) With reference to the quote…No Guru showed reverence for 'stones and idols'. Your quotes are taken out of context and you are using them to further your propaganda.
g) We don't need to worry about separation of the Panth. The separation of Sikhi from Hindu practices is a fact however unfortunately some of our less well read and 'immature' Sikh brothers have forgotten and embraced the majority view in India.We just need to remind them.
h) I am not bitter about everything Hindu/ Indian. I believe you might be projecting your feelings on to me. Your posts are typically rants against Sikhs or the Khalistanis in particular (whatever that means).
"Your first two paragraphs are a rant against the Sikhs and for some reason the Jats. If you are arguing that corruption exists among all the political parties what does that say about your "mature Hindus" and their Hindu culture….I believe it is 85% of the population? "
Meena, seriously, you seem to be suffering from a victim complex 'you' accused me of.
The two paragraphs of my "rant against Sikhs" mentions Sikhs/Jats just once and the same line also includes their Hindu counterparts as i referred to the "communal coalition" BJP is integral part of.
I would repeat, your victimhood is based on false premises as Punjab is a virtual Sikh theocratic state controlled by Jats. It is not a co-incidence that after the re-organisation of Punjab in 1966, 17 governments have been formed in Punjab and ALL 17 of those governments were headed by a Sikh. It is not a co-incidence that almost all 17 of the Chief Ministers (except one – G Zail Singh) were Jats (PS Badal five times).
You seem to have serious problems with political maturity of India's so-called Hindu populace. What can i say, I do not think you have much idea about the world outside the political boundaries of Punjab or, most likely, your hatred for Hindus is stopping you from giving the credit where it is due.
The Hindu majority states of Bengal and Kerala are testimonies of Hindus eschewing communal politics as practiced by Sikhs/Jats.
Before M Banerjee became CM of W Bengal, communists were in power for 34 years! Communists governments are a regular occurrence in Kerala. I could be wrong on this but Bengal are Kerala have been the only communists governments in the democratic world.
The only Hindu 'kingdom' in the world (Nepal) has also opted for communism. Good for them and good for Congress electing an Italian Catholic-born as its President. If you find the idea of an Italian leading India then you should also ask all those Sikhs/Indian contesting elections in North America, UK to curtail their aspirations.
On one hand you celebrate a Khalsa elected to North American parliament and on the other hand you find an Italian heading a political party a sign of slavery! What shall i say about YOUR maturity? Or is it hypocrisy?
c) Defecation is part of the normal human process. We all do it. However 'mature' nations..
Not many "mature" sociologists and economists would include defecation as a standard of a mature democracy's progress. You better change this revolting prism too.
If Indians move away from providing basic necessities (food, health, education), then it would be a serious problem but to give priority to provide western style toilets in a country where people are dieing of starvation would be criminal to say the least.
There is a, in my humble opinion, basic flaw in your argument. You tend to compare India with "mature economies" like US or EU or with 'haveliwale sardars'. I think the apt comparison would be with the former members of the Indian union i.e. Pakistan, Bangladesh or other countries ANYWHERE in the world with the similar per capita income.
Blaming Sikhs! once again, your victim complex is in overdrive. What made you think India blames Sikhs for any problem?
As far as Indian economy (or governance) is concerned, the reins are in the hands of two sikhs (Planning Commission headed by PM MM Singh, Deputy Montek S Ahluwalia). If you think India should focus more on naked bums lining up in the morning, and not overall poverty alleviation, talk to the two gentlemen.
Drinking cow urine … please Meena, why you have to stoop so low to denigrate a faith (and people) with which Gurus were so inextricably associated?
Guru did not show reverence for stones and idols… I asked for your help to interpret the quoted tukks, Go ahead please give the 'correct' context but then there are 100s (if not 1000s) of such other tukks with interpretation by Sikh Gyanis. Be ready to give YOUR correct interpretation for those too.
Two points here, I do not think anyone in the world has given irrevocable evidence that worshiping 'stones and idols' is 'unscientific' or incorrect spiritually speaking. Secondly, what makes you think ALL Hindus believe in "stones and idols" or 33 crore devi devtas, 84 lakh yonis, karma, holy cow, holy tree, etc which find mention in Adi Granth too?
As far as Sanatan Hindu dharm (associated with idol worship) is concerned, you would have to ask Nihangs and taksals (inc Damdami) to throw out Dasam Granth, Sarbloh Granth, Ugradanti and so many other Sikh 'holy' scriptures as they are nothing but pure Sanatani text books. Same with the so many 'Granths' written after 1699 Khalsa sirjana as even today Tat Khalsa forces like SGPC are busy 'editing' them (!!!) to expunge references about Hindu faiths.
If you want to stick to Adi Granth, Khalsas would have serious problem as there is NO sanction for five kakkars in it. In fact, few tukks ridicule those who grow unshorn hair!
What do you want to remind 'immature' Sikhs of? Please mention few of such gems here.
You ridicule Indians/Hindus in every post (rats..shivlings, cow urine..stone idols..defecation) but accuse ME of rants against Sikhs. Amusing. While I have absolutely nothing against Sikhs and Jats (number of my young relations married into that caste); I would ALWAYS oppose diabolic Khalistanis who represent nothing but distortion of sikhi as taught by Baba Nanak and other Gurus in Adi Granth.
Before I am accused of blasphemy (by pointing out that unshorn, long hair have no Adi Granth sanction); here goes the tukk I mentioned in my previous post:
???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ?
???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ?
Kab?r par?? ik si?o k??e ?n ?ubi??? j??e.
Kabeer, when you are in love with the One Lord, duality and alienation depart.
???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????
???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????
B??vai l??be kes kar b??vai g?arar mud??e. ||25||
You may have long hair, or you may shave your head bald. ||25||
???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?
???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?
Kab?r jag k?jal k? ko??r? an?? pare ?is m?hi.
Kabeer, the world is a room filled with black soot; the blind fall into its trap.
Sher, I may not agree with absolutely 100% of what you say, but you seem to show clear communal neutrality. keep it up!
Thanks American 🙂
http://sikhchic.com/article-detail.php?cat=33&…
Rocco, Sikhchic is run as T.Sher Singh's personal fiefdom (The way they even sensor educated comments and opinions). I take a lot of what he writes with a grain of salt. Not trying to be rude, just expressing my view about that excuse of a 'Sikh' website.
Must just be your American that he censors because other people have no problems posting. Perhaps he knows that your posts are decidedly anti-Sikh and serve no real purpose or add to a debate other than negativity and stereotypes.
Julie, just because I think that the bogey of "Indian Agents" and "Agencies" is over exaggeration, doesn't make me anti-Sikh. It just makes me a realist.
Sardar Sher Singh and his buddies seem to believe that any little thing uttered by a person of Indian descent, that could even loosely be interpreted as "anti-Sikh" has some sort of Hindu/Indian conspiracy behind it. I mean these are the same people who tried to make a huge issue over something like THIS: http://sikhchic.com/article-detail.php?id=1822&am….
Also, as an editor, he has the power to sensor absolutely anything on that site. Yet, have you ever noticed the amount of Hindu-bashing comments allowed? It's really a big shame that Sikhs would display such views about another faith or allow them to be displayed in the first place.
Excellent realism American, congrats. Since I come from THE "another faith" , I am used to such bashing, ridicule (sample in one of Meena's post on this thread), distortion of theology & history and good old negation. The Bhindran brand of undiluted vituperation has, unfortunately, pushed sarb sanjhi Gurbani aside and come to be accepted as the true ethos of Sikhi.
But, again, I could be so wrong.
Sher, you need to get over the ‘victim complex’ as no one is bashing you.. I noticed that alot of Hindus suffer from this. 70+years of independence, national rule with a majority of 85% and the mass murder of Sikhs (84), Muslims (2002) and Christians (2009) has still failed to raise yourself esteem. But wasn’t that the objective a la Hindutva brigade?
If some disagrees with your comments or highlights the flaws that is not ‘bashing’. Meena has just challenged you….where is the bashing? And why bring Bhindranwale into this? Really, the man has been dead 28 years. Your vitroil is barely masked……….
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"false alarm of Sikh terrorists"? I don't think holocaust denial is helping the neo-fascists in pushing their perverse agenda. a similar denial of 15 years of terror in Punjab would not help anyone except those sitting across the border waiting to resume bleeding India through a thousands cuts.
Victim complex!! To quote Siri’s latest avatar, you are kidding, right? Or is it a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Everywhere I look, I find many Sikhs who thrive selling victimhood. My comment on “Hindu bashing” was not about the HB on this thread (if we decide to overlook Meena behaving like…Meena in one of the posts) but in general. I am not sure about a lot of Hindus suffering from ‘victim complex’. Yes, they do suffer from the guilt of ‘suffering minorities’ and go out of their way to make amends for an injury real or imaginary.
Your assertion about “Sikhs (84), Muslims (2002) and Christians (2009)” is erroneous as you cannot classify Sikhs (84) along with the other two deplorable events as Nov 1984 killings by Cong goons (pls note, not ‘Hindus’) were totally one-sided while one third of the victims in 2002 and 2009 came from among the Hindus.
I find your line about raising of my self-esteem by mass killings really appalling. Do you listen to Bhindranwale’s degrading speeches to raise your self-esteem or read about saka Kanishka to uplift your sagging spirits?
Whether 2002 and/or 2009 were Hindutva Brigade’s objectives or not I am not really sure as I am not here as their apologist. Unfortunately, there is one common factor in all three of these mass violence events – members of minorities firing the first shot.
For me Bhindranwala represents everything which is wrong with the radical Khalsa movement.
Besides being grotesquely violent, Khalistani terror movement represented misinformation, treachery, distortion, mis-interpretation of scriptures, negation, rapine, gender bias, racism….
Whatever negationists like you do, you cannot wipe off the blood of innocents from Bhindranwale’s holster
American, I am a regular on that site and I have never witnessed any Hindu-bashing comments. There are articles posted from third party publications which highlight the different perspectives on India and Hindus. Some of these offer a different perspective from the 'India shining' and "Hindus as tolerant' propaganda, but reality is reality even when it comes to India and the behavior of Hindus.
You know American, the even shame in all this is that Hindus would allow the mass murder of innocents as witnessed during the Nov 1984 pogroms and not one word has been raised in protest against this even after 28 year. That my friend is the true shame and demonstrates their complicity and their true colors.
A
Oh, I see the article….just anti Dr. Desai comments, no Hindu-bashing. Perhaps you are too sensitive, American
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Why is Sikh Coalition, United Sikhs and SALDEF all partners in this event, where friends of killers will be honored. That too during the November week of the 1984 Genocide
The information on their website is outdated. I don't believe the Sikh organizations are currently partners of the event.
"One may argue that the civil war which ensued for ten years afterwards in Panjab and led to the death of the tens of thousands of Sikh youth were collateral damage and justifiable in order to preserve the unity of India"
Why radical khalsas always stop at "Sikh youth"? Why they feel it inappropriate to seek justice for EVERY (innocent) civilian who died in the Punjab violence? Is it because such a demand would mean questioning the highly-revered persona of Bhindranwale, Amrik Singh, Talwinder S parmar and 100s of terrorists who massacred Punjabis in the name of the flawed concept of Khalistan?
@Sher: you forget that the government, police, paramilitary and the military should be held at a higher standard then so-called 'militants'. The scale of murder, the use of state machinery including the law as well as the impunity with which it was done outweighs any other issues. These are not 'apples for apples' but two different issues.
Meena, I don't understand why you want to give total impunity to the terrorists but want the government forces (responsible for defending the civilians) to fight with one hand tied behind back?
While denouncing the extra-judicial killings once again, i would like to know from YOU how to control such a violent campaign which is not only tearing at the social fabric but is also responsible for the deaths of 10s of thousands of civilians?
"10s of thousands of civilians?"
You mean the ones killed by the government right?
Killed by both the sides and the 'collateral'. The terror victims definitely higher than those who died in the state actions.
Sher – would those killed by the state's action not be terror victims? And would those who died as a result of anti Sikh pogroms not be terror victims? But if you're trying to say that Khalistani nationalist killed more civilians than the state of India, i completely disagree. Thats one of the reasons there's no will in the GOI to setup a 'truth' commission as done in other situations where there's a genuine effort to 'heal' from a conflict. The existence of GOI's death squads that killed innocent Hindus in Punjab would be exposed.
25k civillians murdered by the state as verified by Ensaaf.
Show me the "terror victims"
Please post the link.
Hah, and you implicitly claim to understand militancy in Punjab.
http://www.ensaaf.org/publications/reports/descri…
Just curious, you don't know how to use google to find Ensaaf's data?
also I'm looking for you to respond to this:
"25k civillians murdered by the state as verified by Ensaaf. "
Show me the "terror victims"
I did post reports from South Asia Terrorism Portal (SATP) earlier, I have no idea why I cannot see them here. I would try once again. This report (backgrounder) mentions "Between 1981 and 1993, a total of 21,469 people died in the conflict, including 8,009 terrorists".
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/publication/faultli…
I have gone through the ENSAF report 'Violent deaths and enforced disappearances' in a hurried way (would study in detail whenever I get first opportunity) and have noticed few peculiar things. There is not even one mention of the words 'Hindu, Nirankari or Bhindranwale; there is not even one mention of a terrorist attack!
So, like this report, are you denying that Khalistani terrorists never killed anyone? What is your take on Khali terrorism anyway?
Also, does Ensaaf categorically states anywhere in the report that the state killed 25k civilians? If yes, please either quote the page number or the exact phrase.
The Ensaaf report I am reading talks about "lethal violence" again and again. LV by whom?
"This documentation collectively identifies and documents 2,059 “illegal cremations” acknowledged by the NHRC, approximately 2,196
victims of reported enforced disappearances and extrajudicial
executions documented by CCDP and PCHR, 17,582 victims of lethal violence reported by The Tribune, and 1,484 records from the municipal
cremation grounds."
The report has quoted NHRC for 2,059 which is a well known fact but then mentions 2,196 victims of " extrajudicial executions" and 1,484 records from cremation grounds. How many of the victims were counted thrice, how we would find that out? Out of 17,582 victims of "lethal violence"
According to this commissioned report, the total number of suspected/alleged/real militants killed were around 8,000 (page 22) in 1988-95 period. who killed other 9,000 civilians?
While i have never denied extrajudicial killings happened, you are in total denial that Sikh militants ever killed a single innocent civilian.
Anyway, to cut the story short: here goes a Human Rights Watch report 1991, it does not include imp data from the following two years but gives you a good perspective on the Punjab in 1980-1991 period.
http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/IN…
The SATP publication cites its in-house data sheet on Punjab (whose perspective might be slanted, as they host the writings of KPS GILL) has this methodology listed:
“Source: Figures are compiled from news reports and are provisional.”
That does not help me, assess the validity of what they are looking at and what constitutes their criteria of data selection.
For someone who seemingly has a vested interest in the Punjab, I’m quite surprised that you are unaware of the Ensaaf report, its been out for some time.
As for the questions of methodology and "counting thrice", youve read the document to quickly. Its more carefully prepared than that.
To cut the story short, I am not in total denial: Sikh militants killed innocent civilians who did not deserve to die and that is a shame.
Now, show me where the did. Specifically. In detail.
First, I do not have ANY vested interest in Punjab other than my concern for my state and my people.
While you refuse to accept SATP's stats on Punjab as they "might be slanted" you cite Ensaaf report which is definitely slanted and use the same source of information as SATP i.e. news reports!
what do you have to say about Human Rights Watch report? slanted too?
Anyway, here goes an "incomplete" list
http://iref.homestead.com/Khalistan.html
Let me know if you consider this list as "slanted" too so that I could find news reports about these gory events which charred the social fabric of Punjab for, i fear, all times to come.
Your first sentence makes no sense at all.
SATP clearly identifies itself as agreeing with excessive state violence. ENSAAF's charter is about human rights and is allied with reputable human rights organizations that would not stand for bias.
I just downloaded the Human Rights Watch report. Thank you for providing what I asked. Im reading it now. It gives more detailed and thought out analysis of the innocent people that Sikh terrorists killed. As for IREF I am not going to blindly trust their list, especially given the language that they use in their analysis. You should be fearful though, because in the circuits that I run in, the only people that care about the Punjab outside of it are the Sikhs.
You may want to think more about this assumption, it seems pretty key to the way alot of people think about problems in Punjab. The idea seems to be something like, Sikhs almost exclusively care for punjab. There is a reason that Sikhs, hindus, and Muslims split along language and Sikhs came to claim punjabi while Urdu and hindi were signifiers for the other two communities. And it's not because Sikhs remained heroic sons of their motherland while Hindus betrayed their maboli, or is it? Maybe you need more Hindu veeray in your circuits?
Weird, why my simple sentence does not make any sense to you? Either point out my "vested interest" or just …
HRW report is just one of the many such reports, books and news articles. Even some Sikh intellectuals (Tavleen Singh, Khushwant Singh, Amarjit kaur, JS Grewal, etc) have condemned Bhindranwale & co for their diabolical agendas.
For Sher – "his people" = Hindu Khatris of Punjab
Although he'll emphasize the Hindu part and not the Khatri part, unless there are Dalits in the room, as part of the RSS agenda.
Jai Hind!
Admin, my links to SATP article and Human Rights Watch (!!) have disappeared again. Am I violating some norm by quoting these oft-quoted sources?
[Admin: There are no pending comments for modifications; not sure about your link]
@Admin….any way are my comments the only ones being moderated? Again?????
[Admin: Please stick to one handle on the site, or you'll be blocked again]
And how am I getting away from the handle on the site? My replies are in response to other posts…its called a 'dialogue'. Why are you not threatening to block the others?
And where is my comment in response to Sher's lament quoting Gurbani. I wrote a lengthy response refuting what he said and I would like to see it posted.
There are about 9 different handles from the same IP. (Please stick to one, otherwise don't troll)
I didnt say anything of my own Meenaji, just quoted few tukks from Gurbani. I hope we get to read your response. Regards
Are Julie and Meena the same person using different handles? Hah..
No, we are room mates…2 people….living together.Thank for your interest.
Hah, nice try !! The admin mentioned that you've posted using nine different handles… You must have a lot of room mates that are interested in the same topic and share your opinions….. do you have conversations with the other eight voices in your head?
🙂
[…] week, on the blog The Langar Hall, guest blogger Rocco writes: After the Oak Creek Massacre, Sikhs in the US have united to make sure our rights are better […]
Why is Sikh Coalition, United Sikhs and saldef all partners in this event, where friends of killers will be honored.
With the recent controversy about building a memorial to 1984, I noticed there is organized anti Sikh propaganda, in the media and on the blogs.
With the recent controversy about building a memorial to 1984, I noticed there is organized anti Sikh propaganda, in the media and on the blogs.
The scale of murder, the use of state machinery including the law as well as the impunity with which it was done outweighs any other issues. These are not 'apples for apples' but two different issues.
s it because such a demand would mean questioning the highly-revered persona of Bhindranwale, Amrik Singh, Talwinder S parmar and 100s of terrorists who massacred Punjabis in the name of the flawed concept of Khalistan? http://learn-kurdish.com/
. I believe it is coming from supporters of cong leaders who are involved in the anti Sikh riots. https://learngerman100.de/course/
To win the next elections they are back to, creating a false alam of Sikh Terrorists, they think all Hindus will vote for them if they start beating the Sikhs. Sikhs should be careful, this is difficult time again. https://ciyaye-kurmenc.com/
With the recent controversy about building a memorial to 1984, I noticed there is organized anti Sikh propaganda, in the media and on the blogs.
The scale of murder, the use of state machinery including the law as well as the impunity with which it was done outweighs any other issues. These are not 'apples for apples' but two different issues.
Why is Sikh Coalition, United Sikhs and SALDEF all partners in this event, where friends of killers will be honored. That too during the November week of the 1984 Genocide
I think it is coming from the supporters of the Kung Fu leaders who are taking part in the riots against the Sikhs.