Forced Marriages – A Shame on Some Sikhs
The issue of marriage is complex and has as many circumstances as there are combinations of people in the world. Recently, a langa(r)eader wrote:
Hi I as just wonderingif you are familiar at all with a sikh girl marrying a non sikh guy who is caucasian. Her parents banished her forever about 7 years ago and then finally contacted about 2 years ago but are still hung up on the fact. Just wondering what we can do to help them get over this faster. [received email]
Well I can’t make the parents ‘get over this faster’, but I can raise some observations and thoughts on marriage.
On the issue of interfaith or interracial marriages, I am pretty laissez-faire. I resent guys that believe they have ‘ownership’ of women from their community. Live and let live. Find who is best for you. The world is already complex enough. Find a partner that helps you grow emotionally, spiritually, physically, mentally, etc. I do believe that there are certain benefits of marrying another Sikh – especially in religious growth. However, each individual circumstance is different and your partner may help you grow in those other aspects. More power to you.
What I am completely against is so-called ‘forced marriages.’ The issue is hardly new, but a recent interview on BBC’s HARDtalk has recently brought the issue to prominence again in the UK. For those that are regular Langa(r)eaders, I have written about Jasvinder Sanghera before:
the founder of Karma Nirvana, “[an organization] with a view to create support project for women who experienced language & cultural barriers.” I have read Sanghera’s memoirs and although her particular story of her parents’ attempt to force her into a marriage and the consequences she experienced is more extreme than most cases, still it echoes the larger problems of “forced marriage” in our community and differences may only vary in degree.
Karma Nirvana, while focused on women, does offer support to men and even employs a man to head the men’s aid project, who himself was forced into a marriage.
Documenting her own story in her autobiography Shame, Jasvinder Sanghera has become a tireless advocate through her group Karma Nirvana to push for help against both men and women that are trapped in forced marriage situations.
The show’s host, at times, attempts to ask ‘hard’ questions that seemed really ridiculous. At times the old British v. Asian divide is exaggerated, as if many don’t have hybrid identities. Or the host’s line of questions that Sanghera’s work has the possibility of painting all South-Asian marriages in such a light. Although to be fair to the host, he may have just been following the logic of a common refrain by her detractors, still even if these are valid, it requires community self-reflection.
I always find it annoying when governments, some media groups, and institutions feign sensitivity to Sikhi or Islam, yet they support human rights violations and atrocities and often discrimination against Sikhs or Muslims. Also if Sikhs and Muslims claim they are offended by the wonderful work of brave individuals such as Jasvinder Sanghera, then I need to ask why we have such skewed standards when the brave seva of members of our own community is more offensive than the perpetrators of this violence.
As Sanghera mentions at the end of the conversation, I, too, hope that others groups in other lands – US, Canada, Punjab, India, and beyond – also take up the challenge to end the practice of ‘forced marriages.’
131 Responses to “Forced Marriages – A Shame on Some Sikhs”
I pity the SIKH BOYS .
30 % of the girls their parents Kill before she is born.
20 % run away with some one else.
They wil have to be really innovative to find a life partners for themselves.
Any suggestions ?
why u guys making your own community down. you know langar hall website is now one of the most visible portal of community???? and when you generalize it , makes the worse
I pity the SIKH BOYS .
30 % of the girls their parents Kill before she is born.
20 % run away with some one else.
They wil have to be really innovative to find a life partners for themselves.
Any suggestions ?
@Harinder, to add to your post:
– Too many Punjabi boys don't know how to treat punjabi girls well.
Sincerely,
Punjabi Boy
why u guys making your own community down. you know langar hall website is now one of the most visible portal of community???? and when you generalize it , makes the worse
@Harinder, to add to your post:
– Too many Punjabi boys don’t know how to treat punjabi girls well.
Sincerely,
Punjabi Boy
I seek brides for our boys ;
Any constructive suggestion will be welcomed.
I don’t know why thelangarhall.com has decided to allow this article on this site.
What does this have to do with Sikhism? Other than give us a black eye, pretty soon the article will be picked up by those punjabi Sikh bashing gianis at Sikhnet, then
the nationalistic Indian candirus will get a taste of it and go places where we wouldn’t expect.
If a spouse can want a divorce for feeling betrayed by their significant other for doing things out of character then parents who feel betrayed by their kids have a right to react.
Doesn’t matter what part of the world the parents are from or what religion they believe, if any at all.
What’s really sad is that articles like this create a rift between Sikh sisters and their brothers, and it seems to be written by someone that doesn’t even know what it is to be a
Sikh in the first place.
Way to go thelangarhall.
I don't understand why some readers are put off by this article in particular. Forced marriage is a pan-India syndrome. It speaks to the strength of our community to be able to put these issues on the table for discussion. We have discussed equally nefarious topics on this site that are concentrated problems of the Sikhs: female infanticide, foeticide, caste-ism, In some ways forced marriage seems small in comparison to the brides of NRIs waiting years and years for their husbands who they will never hear from, unless his parents come asking for more dowry.
The only way to strengthen our community is to discuss these issues and let voices be heard. If you're looking for a more sugar-coated world, there are other sites to find it on.
I don’t know why thelangarhall.com has decided to allow this article on this site.
What does this have to do with Sikhism? Other than give us a black eye, pretty soon the article will be picked up by those punjabi Sikh bashing gianis at Sikhnet, then
the nationalistic Indian candirus will get a taste of it and go places where we wouldn’t expect.
If a spouse can want a divorce for feeling betrayed by their significant other for doing things out of character then parents who feel betrayed by their kids have a right to react.
Doesn’t matter what part of the world the parents are from or what religion they believe, if any at all.
What’s really sad is that articles like this create a rift between Sikh sisters and their brothers, and it seems to be written by someone that doesn’t even know what it is to be a
Sikh in the first place.
Way to go thelangarhall.
I don’t understand why some readers are put off by this article in particular. Forced marriage is a pan-India syndrome. It speaks to the strength of our community to be able to put these issues on the table for discussion. We have discussed equally nefarious topics on this site that are concentrated problems of the Sikhs: female infanticide, foeticide, caste-ism, In some ways forced marriage seems small in comparison to the brides of NRIs waiting years and years for their husbands who they will never hear from, unless his parents come asking for more dowry.
The only way to strengthen our community is to discuss these issues and let voices be heard. If you’re looking for a more sugar-coated world, there are other sites to find it on.
You want to discuss indian issues no problem.
Discuss the over 12 million cases of A.I.D.S in india, and the affects that they have on all indians, particularly the innocent house wives. That doesn’t take into account the tip of the iceberg for all the venereal diseases that are being spread amongst the most wealthy of indians.
Discuss all the children under 8 years of age that are employed doing hard labour, and then the little girls that are raped by the rich and wealthy in india. Forced into a life of prostitution, and stigmatized for their natural life.
Discuss all the next generation of indian kids, who have an education, and no longer believe in the hocus pocus of the past. Do you think keeping them ignorant with stories of how the low caste serves the high will still work?
Compare that to this article..Where kids are suprising the
parents with the lifestyle they’ve picked up.
If amar is getting it on with barbie who cares?
If anamika is getting it on with ken who cares?
If they are all in a love rectangle who cares?
The person who needs a talk show probably cares.
Do you even think these people care about Sikhism, if
they’ve already bypassed their parents?
I did not make the claim that I am interested in discussing Indian problems. You wrote that you are angered by a discussion of a problem that would be 'picked up' by other groups to further blacken the eye of the Sikh community. I simply pointed out that the problem extends beyond ours and that it is important to note that we at least are talking about it.
I'm unclear on how you think that not agreeing to a forced marriage is first 'bypassing' one's parents and secondly implicates a person to not care about Sikhism. A lot of parents would want their daughters to get rid of a baby if it is a girl. If the daughter disagrees, and 'bypasses' her parents, is she wrong? What is at stake in this situation in particular is that many individuals in our community believe that a Punjabi Sikh should marry a Punjabi Sikh (often of their parents' choosing), and force their children to follow the belief. This is what is up for discussion. The article also points to the insensitivity of the western media when attempting to be 'culturally appropriate.' Perhaps you could carefully read the article and then comment on it rather than lambasting the author for attempting to discuss problem that is prevalent in the community.
I did not make the claim that I am interested in discussing Indian problems. You wrote that you are angered by a discussion of a problem that would be ‘picked up’ by other groups to further blacken the eye of the Sikh community. I simply pointed out that the problem extends beyond ours and that it is important to note that we at least are talking about it.
I’m unclear on how you think that not agreeing to a forced marriage is first ‘bypassing’ one’s parents and secondly implicates a person to not care about Sikhism. A lot of parents would want their daughters to get rid of a baby if it is a girl. If the daughter disagrees, and ‘bypasses’ her parents, is she wrong? What is at stake in this situation in particular is that many individuals in our community believe that a Punjabi Sikh should marry a Punjabi Sikh (often of their parents’ choosing), and force their children to follow the belief. This is what is up for discussion. The article also points to the insensitivity of the western media when attempting to be ‘culturally appropriate.’ Perhaps you could carefully read the article and then comment on it rather than lambasting the author for attempting to discuss problem that is prevalent in the community.
Yes, it’s noted that you don’t want to discuss Indian problems in the same manner you want to sensationalize this issue, perhaps you cant bear the shame.
Neither you nor the author should be penning this problem on Sikhism. Parents, that are practicing feticide of female babies are not doing so with the blessing of Sikhism, in fact its specifically against Sikhism.
I’m sure you and the author realize that but only as a matter of inconvenience, as neither one of you pointed that out.
Sikhism points out that a Sikh should marry a Sikh. If you don’t want to marry a Sikh, then why keep calling this a Sikh issue? It’s a personal belief issue at that point between you and your family.
To date, I don’t know of anyone ever getting a ‘forced marriage’, I doubt too many others have either. Arranged marriage I’ve heard of, but that is a far cry from ‘forced marriage’.
Now sati, ‘forced wife burning’ I’ve heard of being practiced especially amongst upper caste hindus, the wife would be burned to death when the husband died.
That was the Real Shame.
Of course Sikhism was at the forefront to extinguish that practice because it harmed innocent women.
Sahnewal,
There is nothing wrong with letting your voices being heard. There is something wrong with telling your neighbors about your house hold issues through such a media, if they are even issues.
I would recommend reading "Things Fall Apart", very good reading for this topic, I would just like to leave by saying your mine and no ones cultural beliefs are the ultimate truth they are all equal in there own way. Because one disconnects and does not want to be part of their mother culture does not make their mother culture wrong, it just makes it wrong for them. The author states "Live and let live", which is a statement of individualism, which gives a sense that this person has adapted to Western culture and left their mother culture with does not practice individualism but rather holds strong ground on family values and a family oriented life style. When you get a broken arrow the whole family is effected not just one individual.
thank you
Yes, it’s noted that you don’t want to discuss Indian problems in the same manner you want to sensationalize this issue, perhaps you cant bear the shame.
Neither you nor the author should be penning this problem on Sikhism. Parents, that are practicing feticide of female babies are not doing so with the blessing of Sikhism, in fact its specifically against Sikhism.
I’m sure you and the author realize that but only as a matter of inconvenience, as neither one of you pointed that out.
Sikhism points out that a Sikh should marry a Sikh. If you don’t want to marry a Sikh, then why keep calling this a Sikh issue? It’s a personal belief issue at that point between you and your family.
To date, I don’t know of anyone ever getting a ‘forced marriage’, I doubt too many others have either. Arranged marriage I’ve heard of, but that is a far cry from ‘forced marriage’.
Now sati, ‘forced wife burning’ I’ve heard of being practiced especially amongst upper caste hindus, the wife would be burned to death when the husband died.
That was the Real Shame.
Of course Sikhism was at the forefront to extinguish that practice because it harmed innocent women.
Sahnewal,
There is nothing wrong with letting your voices being heard. There is something wrong with telling your neighbors about your house hold issues through such a media, if they are even issues.
I would recommend reading “Things Fall Apart”, very good reading for this topic, I would just like to leave by saying your mine and no ones cultural beliefs are the ultimate truth they are all equal in there own way. Because one disconnects and does not want to be part of their mother culture does not make their mother culture wrong, it just makes it wrong for them. The author states “Live and let live”, which is a statement of individualism, which gives a sense that this person has adapted to Western culture and left their mother culture with does not practice individualism but rather holds strong ground on family values and a family oriented life style. When you get a broken arrow the whole family is effected not just one individual.
thank you
Sikhs are experencing some thing new and that is what is disturbing them.
In a ancient Punjabi society everything was so well structured the jatts married jatts , ravidass married ravidass ,khatris married Khatris , Arora married aroras and Ramgarhia married Ramgarhia etc etc and life went on with out much hue and cry.
Now suddenly Sikhs began to encounter people which they had never seen before in their history like the whites ,africans.
In olden times their would have come as invaders and girls taken as booty by the winner of wars and changed our genetic make up.
Now times have changed and some ( ? many )of whites and africans have such desirable qualities like the whites innate brillance in science and technology and the africans physical traits would make some ( ? many ) of Sikhs girls attracted to them .
You cant deny merit if someone is good then he is naturally a source of attraction what ever the religion may say.
Also since our Gurujis preached the Universality of mankind the girls are further justified in their attraction.
Sikhs will so keep on evolving by this mechanism of genetic exchange and for the spriitual minded this is will of "WAHEGURU" as he is the Karta purakh.
This is not the end or road for the Sikhs .
Be prepared to meet some more exotic aliens from the many unvierses and dimensions ( 12 as per "M" theory" we live in to sprout out and offer our males further Biological challenges.
May Wahe Guru be ank dang sahi to our Khalsa to rise up to all challenges they will face in future.
Sikhs are experencing some thing new and that is what is disturbing them.
In a ancient Punjabi society everything was so well structured the jatts married jatts , ravidass married ravidass ,khatris married Khatris , Arora married aroras and Ramgarhia married Ramgarhia etc etc and life went on with out much hue and cry.
Now suddenly Sikhs began to encounter people which they had never seen before in their history like the whites ,africans.
In olden times their would have come as invaders and girls taken as booty by the winner of wars and changed our genetic make up.
Now times have changed and some ( ? many )of whites and africans have such desirable qualities like the whites innate brillance in science and technology and the africans physical traits would make some ( ? many ) of Sikhs girls attracted to them .
You cant deny merit if someone is good then he is naturally a source of attraction what ever the religion may say.
Also since our Gurujis preached the Universality of mankind the girls are further justified in their attraction.
Sikhs will so keep on evolving by this mechanism of genetic exchange and for the spriitual minded this is will of “WAHEGURU” as he is the Karta purakh.
This is not the end or road for the Sikhs .
Be prepared to meet some more exotic aliens from the many unvierses and dimensions ( 12 as per “M” theory” we live in to sprout out and offer our males further Biological challenges.
May Wahe Guru be ank dang sahi to our Khalsa to rise up to all challenges they will face in future.
Often parents undergo social pressure when daughters are not married by an age that is the social norm. Many parents consider marrying daughters a parental obligation in a traditional sense. Sometimes it leads to unwise actions like forced marriages. Some of these marriages end up in disasters for the girls' family (check the holiday bride problem). It is totally unfair for the girl, who is trapped between keeping parents happy and being happy herself.
The other situation where the girl has found someone, and parents want to force her into marriage – sounds more like a personal problem of the parents with that guy! Meanwhile the boy in the arranged marriage finds himself in a mess.
Often parents undergo social pressure when daughters are not married by an age that is the social norm. Many parents consider marrying daughters a parental obligation in a traditional sense. Sometimes it leads to unwise actions like forced marriages. Some of these marriages end up in disasters for the girls’ family (check the holiday bride problem). It is totally unfair for the girl, who is trapped between keeping parents happy and being happy herself.
The other situation where the girl has found someone, and parents want to force her into marriage – sounds more like a personal problem of the parents with that guy! Meanwhile the boy in the arranged marriage finds himself in a mess.
Harinder- it's comical and illustrative of how little voice women in our community have that you "pity the Sikh boys." In most cases of abusive relationships, it's the women who are abused. Both men and women may be unhappy in unwanted marriages, but women don't tend to physically abuse their spouses as a result. Unfortunately, most public discussions that take place in our community do so in your male-centric framework rather than one that is gender neutral or inclusive of all genders.
Tajinder-
(emphasis added)
Who one marries is a personal issue if the potential spouses have a choice in the matter. If they choose their spouse according to a sense of duty to their family, community, cultural beliefs, that's totally respectable and laudable, as long as they actually had a choice in the matter.
But if or when people are forced into relationships that are abusive, and if this occurs systematically, then this becomes an issue for the entire community. I'm all for traditionalism except where traditions lead to abuse. Where traditions create risks of danger or harm members of the community, the value of the tradition is less than the value of the health and lives of large #s of people who are harmed, in my opinion.
It's an issue for the Sikh community, as Sikhs, because Sikhi demands that women and men live as equals. If we aren't doing this, then we're not living up to our Gurus' teachings.
The problem doesn't cease to exist just because you refuse to see it.
Harinder- it’s comical and illustrative of how little voice women in our community have that you “pity the Sikh boys.” In most cases of abusive relationships, it’s the women who are abused. Both men and women may be unhappy in unwanted marriages, but women don’t tend to physically abuse their spouses as a result. Unfortunately, most public discussions that take place in our community do so in your male-centric framework rather than one that is gender neutral or inclusive of all genders.
Tajinder-
(emphasis added)
Who one marries is a personal issue if the potential spouses have a choice in the matter. If they choose their spouse according to a sense of duty to their family, community, cultural beliefs, that’s totally respectable and laudable, as long as they actually had a choice in the matter.
But if or when people are forced into relationships that are abusive, and if this occurs systematically, then this becomes an issue for the entire community. I’m all for traditionalism except where traditions lead to abuse. Where traditions create risks of danger or harm members of the community, the value of the tradition is less than the value of the health and lives of large #s of people who are harmed, in my opinion.
It’s an issue for the Sikh community, as Sikhs, because Sikhi demands that women and men live as equals. If we aren’t doing this, then we’re not living up to our Gurus’ teachings.
The problem doesn’t cease to exist just because you refuse to see it.
Harinder,
It’s not that whites, blacks, or the moghuls have/had good S.A.T scores. Punjabis have no less physical prowess, intelligence, beauty, or ego.
If Punjabis could be represented by the dirt in a glass of water in regards to their purity, we would all be drinking mud.
In fact a Punjabi being racist should be unheard of, unfortunately its not because somehow a Punjabi will associate him/her self with some far off germanic tribe, but skin color and tone should always tell them the equation is incomplete unless they include their darker ancestors as well.
As we know Sikhism is not just for punjabi people, it is for those who desire to follow the Guru (10 Guru’s and Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji).
What will be horrible is that as the rest of the World and Universe starts to embrace Sikhism and call it their own, Punjabis will be considered the most ignorant people everywhere in the cosmos because they actually started out with this Faith and still decided to get lost.
Hopefully with the Guru’s Blessing even if that happens we will serve as the rustic example of what not to do.
Harinder,
It’s not that whites, blacks, or the moghuls have/had good S.A.T scores. Punjabis have no less physical prowess, intelligence, beauty, or ego.
If Punjabis could be represented by the dirt in a glass of water in regards to their purity, we would all be drinking mud.
In fact a Punjabi being racist should be unheard of, unfortunately its not because somehow a Punjabi will associate him/her self with some far off germanic tribe, but skin color and tone should always tell them the equation is incomplete unless they include their darker ancestors as well.
As we know Sikhism is not just for punjabi people, it is for those who desire to follow the Guru (10 Guru’s and Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji).
What will be horrible is that as the rest of the World and Universe starts to embrace Sikhism and call it their own, Punjabis will be considered the most ignorant people everywhere in the cosmos because they actually started out with this Faith and still decided to get lost.
Hopefully with the Guru’s Blessing even if that happens we will serve as the rustic example of what not to do.
that you “pity the Sikh boys____Unfortunately, most public discussions that take place in our community do so in your male-centric .” (Reema reply) :-
I am being inclusive by agreeing with the girls who decides to marry out side the community.As for marriages all Sikhs dont have violence in their married life. As for violence against the females is concerned then it is some thing biolgical.You want woman to thrash men to prove woman are equal. I dont think it happens in any society including the matriachal ones.
——————————————————————
Reply to
Punjabis will be considered the most ignorant people9by sham article) :—
Early christian are not leading the christianity today .
The baton at some point gets passed on; as it has passed onto the africans.
Though if u ask my personel choice I would like people of Punjab to be the torch bearers with out sounding racist.
It is a kind of "Mitti Punjab the" bond.
But then Waheguru does not consult me in his scheme of things of life.
that you “pity the Sikh boys____Unfortunately, most public discussions that take place in our community do so in your male-centric .” (Reema reply) :-
I am being inclusive by agreeing with the girls who decides to marry out side the community.As for marriages all Sikhs dont have violence in their married life. As for violence against the females is concerned then it is some thing biolgical.You want woman to thrash men to prove woman are equal. I dont think it happens in any society including the matriachal ones.
——————————————————————
Reply to
Punjabis will be considered the most ignorant people9by sham article) :—
Early christian are not leading the christianity today .
The baton at some point gets passed on; as it has passed onto the africans.
Though if u ask my personel choice I would like people of Punjab to be the torch bearers with out sounding racist.
It is a kind of “Mitti Punjab the” bond.
But then Waheguru does not consult me in his scheme of things of life.
Thanks Reema,
This is an oddly male-centric discussion, and let's face it, it's women in the Sikh community who almost always face abuse. And just to say, this is a Sikh discussion group, and supposedly progressive at that, so where else are these matters going to be discussed and brought into the open? I'm always deeply offended by the defense that raising such questions brings shame on the community. Shame on those who say it, because they're using their trumped-up indignation to defend families who would abort girl fetuses, condone forced marriages, and turn a blind eye to domestic violence.
I've watched, over several decades, the impact of forced marriages in my own family, on the girls and boys who were made to marry, and also on the children of those marriages, and it has been heartbreaking. Marriage is not an easy endeavor, especially in this modern and globalized world, and Sikhs face the additional hurdle of often being a minority within a minority, but this should not prevent us from speaking about these questions openly. It's about time we stopped crying "Shame!" and faced the very real problems and challenges in the community.
Thanks Reema,
This is an oddly male-centric discussion, and let’s face it, it’s women in the Sikh community who almost always face abuse. And just to say, this is a Sikh discussion group, and supposedly progressive at that, so where else are these matters going to be discussed and brought into the open? I’m always deeply offended by the defense that raising such questions brings shame on the community. Shame on those who say it, because they’re using their trumped-up indignation to defend families who would abort girl fetuses, condone forced marriages, and turn a blind eye to domestic violence.
I’ve watched, over several decades, the impact of forced marriages in my own family, on the girls and boys who were made to marry, and also on the children of those marriages, and it has been heartbreaking. Marriage is not an easy endeavor, especially in this modern and globalized world, and Sikhs face the additional hurdle of often being a minority within a minority, but this should not prevent us from speaking about these questions openly. It’s about time we stopped crying “Shame!” and faced the very real problems and challenges in the community.
Ranbir you can make yourself the prime voice of women on this discussion, but unless you look at Sikh History, you cannot call yourself the prime voice of Sikh women.
You and Jodha seem to be purposely attacking Sikhism out of sheer ignorance, or
without any care to the damage you needlessly inflict to a Faith that has instructed
women to rise.
What rules or laws in Sikhism are you referring to that allow for the mistreatment of women?
Hindus particularly Brahmins immediately called for the killing of a widow, Sikhism not only forbid that, but suggested that a widow could be remarried as well.
http://sikhiwiki.com/index.php/Sikh_Gurus_and_wom…
Some forms of Islam have women to cover their faces as a part of their belief system, Sikhism expressly tells women you are not to cover your face or hide it for any reason related to religion. Were you or Jodha aware of that?
http://www.sikhism101.com/node/273
Sikh women fought in battles, as they were encouraged with men to take Amrit.
Sikh women called into question the behavior of their own husbands (40 Mukhtias) and would not take them back when they abandoned Guru Gobind Singh Ji. The men realizing their mistake went back giving up their lives, and asked the Guru to forgive their mistake, which the Guru did.
In the late 1740’s-1753, Sikh women were given the choice in Mir Maanu’s prison, convert to Islam and your children will be spared, or watch the children being butchered for not converting. The Sikh women chose to watch the children being butchered, so they could watch them die as Free Sikhs. Their incredible sacrifice is still remembered.
http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/sikh-martyrs/khalsa-…
Sikhism is the Faith women turned to as they survived life.
Trying to understand the violence sikh woman face from a past persepective :-
Khalsa, the saviors of the innocent
Abdali returned from Delhi in March 1761 with lots of gold and more than 2,000 beautiful, young girls as prisoners. The Sikhs decided to save these innocent girls. Jassa Singh formulated a strategy. When Abdali was crossing the river Beas, the Sikhs swiftly fell upon them. They freed the women prisoners and escorted them back to their homes. The people felt that the Sikhs deserved to be the rulers of the Punjab. They alone could protect the people and their honor from the invaders.
http://www.searchsikhism.com/ahluwalia.html
Can we also interpret it as that sikhs have always guarded there woman folks.
Harinder Ji;
Your post was very nice and informative, thanks for sharing! It raised a question in my mind.
Nowadays do the majority of sikh women turn to sikh men as easily?
Or have the poorer habits of Punjabiism overrode it all via abuse of alcolhol, drugs, women?
Very few Punjabis stand up for women today as your post highlights. I wonder how we got here, and when so many approaches to help, especially a sikh female by a sikh gentleman, in any form, its met with suspicion. This often shows a change in perception. Where did it come from?
How did so many of the protectors of women give into treating them like objects, to be bought, used, abused, aborted and traded like baseball cards?
What do Sikh men do today for the plight of women? I ask with the thought that while it's important to know our past, we are not making a future, by taking action today. So much around Sikh belief is turning into keyboard/weekend warriorism.
It's easy to say, hard to do, Guru Nanak may have had a point when he said "Truth is high.. higher still is truthful living."
Ranbir you can make yourself the prime voice of women on this discussion, but unless you look at Sikh History, you cannot call yourself the prime voice of Sikh women.
You and Jodha seem to be purposely attacking Sikhism out of sheer ignorance, or
without any care to the damage you needlessly inflict to a Faith that has instructed
women to rise.
What rules or laws in Sikhism are you referring to that allow for the mistreatment of women?
Hindus particularly Brahmins immediately called for the killing of a widow, Sikhism not only forbid that, but suggested that a widow could be remarried as well.
http://sikhiwiki.com/index.php/Sikh_Gurus_and_women
Some forms of Islam have women to cover their faces as a part of their belief system, Sikhism expressly tells women you are not to cover your face or hide it for any reason related to religion. Were you or Jodha aware of that?
http://www.sikhism101.com/node/273
Sikh women fought in battles, as they were encouraged with men to take Amrit.
Sikh women called into question the behavior of their own husbands (40 Mukhtias) and would not take them back when they abandoned Guru Gobind Singh Ji. The men realizing their mistake went back giving up their lives, and asked the Guru to forgive their mistake, which the Guru did.
In the late 1740’s-1753, Sikh women were given the choice in Mir Maanu’s prison, convert to Islam and your children will be spared, or watch the children being butchered for not converting. The Sikh women chose to watch the children being butchered, so they could watch them die as Free Sikhs. Their incredible sacrifice is still remembered.
http://www.allaboutsikhs.com/sikh-martyrs/khalsa-women.html
Sikhism is the Faith women turned to as they survived life.
Trying to understand the violence sikh woman face from a past persepective :-
Khalsa, the saviors of the innocent
Abdali returned from Delhi in March 1761 with lots of gold and more than 2,000 beautiful, young girls as prisoners. The Sikhs decided to save these innocent girls. Jassa Singh formulated a strategy. When Abdali was crossing the river Beas, the Sikhs swiftly fell upon them. They freed the women prisoners and escorted them back to their homes. The people felt that the Sikhs deserved to be the rulers of the Punjab. They alone could protect the people and their honor from the invaders.
http://www.searchsikhism.com/ahluwalia.html
Can we also interpret it as that sikhs have always guarded there woman folks.
Harinder Ji;
Your post was very nice and informative, thanks for sharing! It raised a question in my mind.
Nowadays do the majority of sikh women turn to sikh men as easily?
Or have the poorer habits of Punjabiism overrode it all via abuse of alcolhol, drugs, women?
Very few Punjabis stand up for women today as your post highlights. I wonder how we got here, and when so many approaches to help, especially a sikh female by a sikh gentleman, in any form, its met with suspicion. This often shows a change in perception. Where did it come from?
How did so many of the protectors of women give into treating them like objects, to be bought, used, abused, aborted and traded like baseball cards?
What do Sikh men do today for the plight of women? I ask with the thought that while it’s important to know our past, we are not making a future, by taking action today. So much around Sikh belief is turning into keyboard/weekend warriorism.
It’s easy to say, hard to do, Guru Nanak may have had a point when he said “Truth is high.. higher still is truthful living.”
Justasikh,
If someone could actually list down some examples of whats taking place instead of creating a rift between all Sikh men, Sikh women and society.
You called other people keyboard weekend warriors.
However you or the writers of this article have not provided any specific incidents.
Was there any research done for this article? This should not be a he said/ she said article.
This article and your post comes across as gossip, ineundo, and propaganda. Learn to matter.
Justasikh,
If someone could actually list down some examples of whats taking place instead of creating a rift between all Sikh men, Sikh women and society.
You called other people keyboard weekend warriors.
However you or the writers of this article have not provided any specific incidents.
Was there any research done for this article? This should not be a he said/ she said article.
This article and your post comes across as gossip, ineundo, and propaganda. Learn to matter.
"This is an oddly male-centric discussion, and let’s face it, it’s women in the Sikh community who almost always face abuse. And just to say, this is a Sikh discussion group, and supposedly progressive at that, so where else are these matters going to be discussed and brought into the open?"
Thanks, Ranbir, for trying to focus the discussion on this thread. In general, readers get caught up on the title of posts and fail to understand the concept of the content. Yes, Sikhs are culpable of inequality and yes, it does go against what our Gurus attempted to teach us. However, we need to accept the reality of our community. People in the community (like commenters on this thread) become distracted from the real issue and focus on defending Sikhi against blame. The only real defense is for us to take action and stop these things from happening. Unfortunately, useful conversations always seem to get distracted from the real issues…
“This is an oddly male-centric discussion, and let’s face it, it’s women in the Sikh community who almost always face abuse. And just to say, this is a Sikh discussion group, and supposedly progressive at that, so where else are these matters going to be discussed and brought into the open?”
Thanks, Ranbir, for trying to focus the discussion on this thread. In general, readers get caught up on the title of posts and fail to understand the concept of the content. Yes, Sikhs are culpable of inequality and yes, it does go against what our Gurus attempted to teach us. However, we need to accept the reality of our community. People in the community (like commenters on this thread) become distracted from the real issue and focus on defending Sikhi against blame. The only real defense is for us to take action and stop these things from happening. Unfortunately, useful conversations always seem to get distracted from the real issues…
This is all very interesting.
I live in the UK and I am christian and np.
I work/live in a multi-cultural area and meet many folks with turbans, having recently moved from Scotland, where there were none.
Is there still a problem in the UK with arranged marriages?
There is much help available here for women who are abused and all they need do is ask, not the police, but any ss department.
I know from my own experience it does take a little time (2-3 months) of actual hell and form filling (another hell) but there is a light and you will get there.
This is all very interesting.
I live in the UK and I am christian and np.
I work/live in a multi-cultural area and meet many folks with turbans, having recently moved from Scotland, where there were none.
Is there still a problem in the UK with arranged marriages?
There is much help available here for women who are abused and all they need do is ask, not the police, but any ss department.
I know from my own experience it does take a little time (2-3 months) of actual hell and form filling (another hell) but there is a light and you will get there.
I dont know what kind of freedom sikh woman are asking from sikh men.
Violence against woman till 80's was heard and well known amongst sikhs especailly over dowry which lead to a tragic bride burning cases.
This all has stopped since 1990 due to several reasons Iisted below.
Since 1990's sikhs girls have had advantage over there men due to following reasons
1) Sikh girls got equal education and became financally independent and self confident.
2) The skewed sex ratio went in their favour due to scarcity of girls.
3) As sikhs emigrated into sexually permissive societies lot of taboos became redundant.
The only remaining freedom that sikh woman can today ask for is
1) Sexual freedom
2) Freedom to smoke and drink
3) Freedom to not bother about family which includes children and parents.
All this would negate the core values of SIKHISM and marriage as a institution.
So I see this article more as a propoganda to incite woman to revolt.
The question is against whom ?
??SELF.
I dont know what kind of freedom sikh woman are asking from sikh men.
Violence against woman till 80’s was heard and well known amongst sikhs especailly over dowry which lead to a tragic bride burning cases.
This all has stopped since 1990 due to several reasons Iisted below.
Since 1990’s sikhs girls have had advantage over there men due to following reasons
1) Sikh girls got equal education and became financally independent and self confident.
2) The skewed sex ratio went in their favour due to scarcity of girls.
3) As sikhs emigrated into sexually permissive societies lot of taboos became redundant.
The only remaining freedom that sikh woman can today ask for is
1) Sexual freedom
2) Freedom to smoke and drink
3) Freedom to not bother about family which includes children and parents.
All this would negate the core values of SIKHISM and marriage as a institution.
So I see this article more as a propoganda to incite woman to revolt.
The question is against whom ?
??SELF.
Harinder,
You and others in the comments have spoken that this article– which seems rather a straightforward piece about the prevalence in some limited way of forced marriage for some individuals in the Sikh community — is somehow causing a rift between men and women and an incitement to a women's revolution? Could you please explain how exactly this is going to happen and where in the article the incitement to revolution is to be found?
It sounds as if you're saying that any woman who complains of unfair treatment or abuse should be silenced because she is inciting revolution. Is that your argument here? I thought Sikhs were bound to speak up in the face of injustice, not muzzle the oppressed.
And oh yes, "2) The skewed sex ratio went in their favour due to scarcity of girls." Excuse me??? You say this is a reason women have "the advantage over men" — because they are ABORTED at a disproportionate rate!??? What planet do you live on?
I will tell u that no statistcs are quoted to support the claim that this issue is a major problem confronting SIKHS.
My personel opinion is that "SIKH GIRLS" are doing what ever they feel like these days much to the helplessnes of sikh men.
That scarcity creates demand is a well known fact by all so the skewed sex ratio goes in favour of Sikh girls in latter life is easy to understand .
Having said that I do abhor this practise of "female infaticide" amongst the cowards in our our community and I hope we are able to overcome this problem as soon as possible.
Harinder,
You and others in the comments have spoken that this article– which seems rather a straightforward piece about the prevalence in some limited way of forced marriage for some individuals in the Sikh community — is somehow causing a rift between men and women and an incitement to a women’s revolution? Could you please explain how exactly this is going to happen and where in the article the incitement to revolution is to be found?
It sounds as if you’re saying that any woman who complains of unfair treatment or abuse should be silenced because she is inciting revolution. Is that your argument here? I thought Sikhs were bound to speak up in the face of injustice, not muzzle the oppressed.
And oh yes, “2) The skewed sex ratio went in their favour due to scarcity of girls.” Excuse me??? You say this is a reason women have “the advantage over men” — because they are ABORTED at a disproportionate rate!??? What planet do you live on?
I will tell u that no statistcs are quoted to support the claim that this issue is a major problem confronting SIKHS.
My personel opinion is that “SIKH GIRLS” are doing what ever they feel like these days much to the helplessnes of sikh men.
That scarcity creates demand is a well known fact by all so the skewed sex ratio goes in favour of Sikh girls in latter life is easy to understand .
Having said that I do abhor this practise of “female infaticide” amongst the cowards in our our community and I hope we are able to overcome this problem as soon as possible.
Harinder,
How about no one thrashes anyone?! That, dear sir, is what I had in mind.
Your perversity makes my head spin.
Reema,
Once again, you did no relevant research, your examples are about other women in other communities being abused by men whose religion you cannot affirm but they are not Sikh males.
But some how Sikh men are grouped in with that group, of course Sikh men should be used to this by now.
Since it happens to Sikh men when we are grouped in as muslims and hindus in the rest of society, at airports, restaurants, work, why not from the likes of you.
I guess a few of you females at thelangarhall.com figured you could lay this at the door step of Sikh men in any kind of way.
Sikh men can't take this one though, because you are pitting us against Sikh women.
And you accused Harinder of perversity because he doesnt want Sikh women to fight with Sikh men?????
Like I said, I do not believe these articles are being written by Sikh women, these articles are written by punjabi women, who are more than willing to cut themselves off from Sikhism in more ways than one, but it seems thats not enough, they want to cut up all of Sikhism.
Harinder,
How about no one thrashes anyone?! That, dear sir, is what I had in mind.
Your perversity makes my head spin.
Hey Sham – learn to read: I said no one should fight anyone. Let's just all get along, ok?
You don't like the fact that we talk about issues you don't think exist. We have personal experiences confirming that these issues do exist.
Don't start saying that we're out to euthanize all the elderly and make death panels now, ok? Thanks.
You're not comfortable with changing the status quo of silence. Sorry. Get over it.
Reema,
Once again, you did no relevant research, your examples are about other women in other communities being abused by men whose religion you cannot affirm but they are not Sikh males.
But some how Sikh men are grouped in with that group, of course Sikh men should be used to this by now.
Since it happens to Sikh men when we are grouped in as muslims and hindus in the rest of society, at airports, restaurants, work, why not from the likes of you.
I guess a few of you females at thelangarhall.com figured you could lay this at the door step of Sikh men in any kind of way.
Sikh men can’t take this one though, because you are pitting us against Sikh women.
And you accused Harinder of perversity because he doesnt want Sikh women to fight with Sikh men?????
Like I said, I do not believe these articles are being written by Sikh women, these articles are written by punjabi women, who are more than willing to cut themselves off from Sikhism in more ways than one, but it seems thats not enough, they want to cut up all of Sikhism.
Hey Sham – learn to read: I said no one should fight anyone. Let’s just all get along, ok?
You don’t like the fact that we talk about issues you don’t think exist. We have personal experiences confirming that these issues do exist.
Don’t start saying that we’re out to euthanize all the elderly and make death panels now, ok? Thanks.
You’re not comfortable with changing the status quo of silence. Sorry. Get over it.
Reema,
Read what you wrote about Harinder, you said he was perverse for writing "You want woman to thrash men to prove woman are equal."
Abuse of women does exist, however you have no stories of abuse of Sikh women by Sikh men highlighted in your article, nor does Jodha.
However, if you know of personal situations where it has happened, then discreetly state what happened, highlight what needs to take place so Sikhs can act in preventing this.
While this is happening to Sikh women, ironically, it will be Sikh women that will still need to remember to protect the image of Sikh men. The person who should not be getting lynched in the media or by anyone else are their innocent Sikh brothers, uncles, and father.
Just as Sikh men should realize that protecting Sikh women at all times should be our top priority in our hearts, mind, and soul.
here is an example that jodha highlighted – in fact a whole book – but i assume in not reading the article, you probably missed it.
No one needs to discreetly do anything. Many silently suffer. Make noise! Jasvinder Sanghera is doing that! The Langarhall is doing that! Hope all continue.
Reema,
Read what you wrote about Harinder, you said he was perverse for writing “You want woman to thrash men to prove woman are equal.”
Abuse of women does exist, however you have no stories of abuse of Sikh women by Sikh men highlighted in your article, nor does Jodha.
However, if you know of personal situations where it has happened, then discreetly state what happened, highlight what needs to take place so Sikhs can act in preventing this.
While this is happening to Sikh women, ironically, it will be Sikh women that will still need to remember to protect the image of Sikh men. The person who should not be getting lynched in the media or by anyone else are their innocent Sikh brothers, uncles, and father.
Just as Sikh men should realize that protecting Sikh women at all times should be our top priority in our hearts, mind, and soul.
here is an example that jodha highlighted – in fact a whole book – but i assume in not reading the article, you probably missed it.
No one needs to discreetly do anything. Many silently suffer. Make noise! Jasvinder Sanghera is doing that! The Langarhall is doing that! Hope all continue.