Sikh Tradition in Translation
Over the past few years the website Sikhitothemax.com has become one of the premier tools for English-fluent Sikh youth to access their Guru Granth Sahib. While STTM has problems that can be addressed at another time, it is important to realize the effect that this tool has had. 
Many Gurdwaras throughout the world have added STTM translations as part of their regular programs and the projection system in the Gurdwara is fast becoming the norm.
But is it enough?
In a recent article in the Fresno Bee, reporter Vanessa Colon looks at the question of “losing tradition in translation.”
Colon interviews a number of Central Valley Sikhs and finds that the Sikh youth are often not engaged with their Gurdwara. Although there a number of reasons, she delves into the question of language first and foremost. Some local Fresno Sikhs blamed the Sikh youth for not learning enough Punjabi. However, I see that this approach has problematic for there are now a number of Punjabi/Khalsa schools in California and beyond. However, instruction one day a week for an hour will not ever provide a sufficient language base for one to understand Gurbani.
My favorite part about Colon’s article is that she uses the lens of a larger immigrant perspective. Colon does not fixate on the Sikh situation as something completely unique and she brings in perspectives from other immigrant groups in Fresno, namely the Armenians.
A certain similarity is striking:
“In the Armenian situation, the second generation of young Armenians did not know how to read and write in Armenian and resisted learning it,” she said.
Mirigian-Emerzian, 86, said her parents forced her to go to an Armenian school, and she attended Valley Armenian churches, where the services were in Armenian.
“My parents retained the custom and spoke the language well, but I was born and raised here. As a young kid, I didn’t want to learn Armenian, but as I grew up, I realized it was an advantage to learn another language,” she said. “I wanted to be American. I thought why should I speak something else?” [link]
A religious studies professor from UCSB, Rudy Busto, provides some analytical perspective:
“This is very typical of what happens in the second generation. The usual model … is the immigrant church or religious institution is tied to the old country,” Busto said. The younger generation is torn between their parents’ traditions and their own Americanized values.”[link]
However, the situation may not be all bleak. Few people I know would ever suggest that the Gurdwara should move to English-only. However, for the youth, I do believe that katha (exegesis) should be conducted in extremely basic Punjabi or at times even in English.
While continuing to call for the Sikh youth to engage with Punjabi is important (in fact on this blog, it has been discussed before), I do believe that within 1 to 2 generations (meaning your grandchildren), they will not speak Punjabi. You can already see the beginnings of this in Canada and England (in families that have been settled there for 2-4 generations), where there are longer immigrant histories. The depletion of new immigrants from Punjab due to immigration restrictions after 9/11 will result in the decrease of the traditional infusion of new Punjabi-language speakers.
Although so goes Punjabi, I know that we can maintain our Sikhi. I think we can learn much from other religious communities as well. Reformed Jews maintain Hebrew for all prayers, but English is used for exegesis. I do believe that Sikhs may have to follow suit, but we have a transitional stage where simplistic Punjabi may be preferable at this time. Other thoughts and suggestions?
[For reasons of full disclosure, I have previously mentioned that I have helped with the Jakara Movement organization in the past]
77 Responses to “Sikh Tradition in Translation”
What kind of problems have you found with STTM? What sorts of limitations are there which you are talking about? Would you care to acquaint us on the issue of opening bhangra schools in Gurudwaras, will this help the Sikh youth? This is suggested in the Fresno bee article by a representative of one of the Gurudwaras there.
What kind of problems have you found with STTM? What sorts of limitations are there which you are talking about? Would you care to acquaint us on the issue of opening bhangra schools in Gurudwaras, will this help the Sikh youth? This is suggested in the Fresno bee article by a representative of one of the Gurudwaras there.
I agree that there are limitations to interpretations. Firstly, as much as you read "Here, there, in every body. Only you, Only you, My Beloved." It will have an effect, but not as much as "Eethai oothai, ghat ghat, ghat ghat, thoohee thoohee mohinaa."
Gurbani is not Punjabi. Gurbani contains words from various different dialects of Punjabi, as well as Hindi, Braj bhasha, Sanskrit, Urdu, and more. It contains words common to Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and others. So the expanse of the language used in Gurbani, if you look outside of just the use of Gurmukhi script, is actually relevant to directly relevant to billions of people. In terms of metaphors, there are Asian metaphors but also general metaphors relevant to everyone everywhere. In terms of historical figures, Gurbani mentions a lot from the Ramayan and Mahabarat tradition, but also Islamic tradition, such as Ram Chandar, Sita, Krishna, Krishna's mother, the angel of death Azrael, Adam (Baba Adam), and others.
Basically my point is that if you learn Guru Granth Sahib Ji you will be exposed to spiritual knowledge using the languages, metaphors, historical figures, etc. directly relevant to the cultures and traditions of billions of people around the world. Meanwhile the general teachings remain universal. If you learn Dasam Granth Sahib, it will further expose you to even more divine knowledge about the realities of the world.
I think in our own limited knowledge of Gurbani we assume Gurbani is all about Punjab and Punjabi culture. This is not true.
Secondly, learning Punjabi is very important. However, as Gurbani is universal – the more important thing than learning the language, is learning the context, intention and spiritual wisdom in the message. For example, there is a shabad "Ahankareeaa nindkaa pitth day, NaamDeo mukh laaeiaa."
In order to understand this shabad you need to know who Bhagat NaamDev jee was, what the sakhi was, who Pandits were, and then in that context what does this mean for a spiritual person. All of this can be explained in any language. So the extrapolation, interpretation, discourse about Gurbani can take place in any language… and this is one of the things we are failing with, because we don't have adequate English-speaking parcharaks. There are some. However, often some people are native English speakers born to Punjabi Sikh families and they ASSUME they have a God-given right to preach, whereas they know little about Gurbani. This is a delusion. On the other hand there are some who know about Gurbani, but they don't know how to speak English and no English speaking youth is willing to come learn from them and share their knowledge further with the youth. So the solution is for native English speakers to learn, meditate on and practice Gurbani, and then share it; and for knowledgeable Punjabi-speaking Gurbani practitioners to learn English, or at least teach bilingual youth so that they can further spread the message.
I agree that there are limitations to interpretations. Firstly, as much as you read “Here, there, in every body. Only you, Only you, My Beloved.” It will have an effect, but not as much as “Eethai oothai, ghat ghat, ghat ghat, thoohee thoohee mohinaa.”
Gurbani is not Punjabi. Gurbani contains words from various different dialects of Punjabi, as well as Hindi, Braj bhasha, Sanskrit, Urdu, and more. It contains words common to Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, and others. So the expanse of the language used in Gurbani, if you look outside of just the use of Gurmukhi script, is actually relevant to directly relevant to billions of people. In terms of metaphors, there are Asian metaphors but also general metaphors relevant to everyone everywhere. In terms of historical figures, Gurbani mentions a lot from the Ramayan and Mahabarat tradition, but also Islamic tradition, such as Ram Chandar, Sita, Krishna, Krishna’s mother, the angel of death Azrael, Adam (Baba Adam), and others.
Basically my point is that if you learn Guru Granth Sahib Ji you will be exposed to spiritual knowledge using the languages, metaphors, historical figures, etc. directly relevant to the cultures and traditions of billions of people around the world. Meanwhile the general teachings remain universal. If you learn Dasam Granth Sahib, it will further expose you to even more divine knowledge about the realities of the world.
I think in our own limited knowledge of Gurbani we assume Gurbani is all about Punjab and Punjabi culture. This is not true.
Secondly, learning Punjabi is very important. However, as Gurbani is universal – the more important thing than learning the language, is learning the context, intention and spiritual wisdom in the message. For example, there is a shabad “Ahankareeaa nindkaa pitth day, NaamDeo mukh laaeiaa.”
In order to understand this shabad you need to know who Bhagat NaamDev jee was, what the sakhi was, who Pandits were, and then in that context what does this mean for a spiritual person. All of this can be explained in any language. So the extrapolation, interpretation, discourse about Gurbani can take place in any language… and this is one of the things we are failing with, because we don’t have adequate English-speaking parcharaks. There are some. However, often some people are native English speakers born to Punjabi Sikh families and they ASSUME they have a God-given right to preach, whereas they know little about Gurbani. This is a delusion. On the other hand there are some who know about Gurbani, but they don’t know how to speak English and no English speaking youth is willing to come learn from them and share their knowledge further with the youth. So the solution is for native English speakers to learn, meditate on and practice Gurbani, and then share it; and for knowledgeable Punjabi-speaking Gurbani practitioners to learn English, or at least teach bilingual youth so that they can further spread the message.
This is so true. There are layers of meaning and references that are lost when translated to English (partially because of the inherent nature of translations).
But in addition to the nature of translating from an original language, STTM translations are hard to connect with because they add a layer of patriarchal and Abrahamic, Christian vocabulary (Lord?? Master?? Him?? "Command" is so different from "hukam," … etc).
It destroys the poetry for me.
Jodha,
Your wrote:
There is no dearth of immigrants from the Punjab entering Canada. I don't know on what basis you made that statement. Secondly, in Canada, anyone can learn Punjabi as a second language elective at public schools in British Columbia. Colleges and Universities in British Columbia also teach Punjabi, which is where I learned to read and write the language.
Before you make generalizations, which you seem wont to do, you should do some research and back it up.
Mr. Singh's response seems well thought out and I would put forth that you ask him or someone else who knows something about Gurbani and Sikh Dharm to contribute posts to this blog site in place of Jodha. Thank you Mr. Singh for your comment, I found it uplifting and spot on.
best regards,
Kaptaan
This is so true. There are layers of meaning and references that are lost when translated to English (partially because of the inherent nature of translations).
But in addition to the nature of translating from an original language, STTM translations are hard to connect with because they add a layer of patriarchal and Abrahamic, Christian vocabulary (Lord?? Master?? Him?? “Command” is so different from “hukam,” … etc).
It destroys the poetry for me.
Jodha,
Your wrote:
There is no dearth of immigrants from the Punjab entering Canada. I don’t know on what basis you made that statement. Secondly, in Canada, anyone can learn Punjabi as a second language elective at public schools in British Columbia. Colleges and Universities in British Columbia also teach Punjabi, which is where I learned to read and write the language.
Before you make generalizations, which you seem wont to do, you should do some research and back it up.
Mr. Singh’s response seems well thought out and I would put forth that you ask him or someone else who knows something about Gurbani and Sikh Dharm to contribute posts to this blog site in place of Jodha. Thank you Mr. Singh for your comment, I found it uplifting and spot on.
best regards,
Kaptaan
There is no dearth of immigrants from the Punjab entering Canada. I don’t know on what basis you made that statement. Secondly, in Canada, anyone can learn Punjabi as a second language elective at public schools in British Columbia. Colleges and Universities in British Columbia also teach Punjabi, which is where I learned to read and write the language.
Kaptaan is right there is no shortage of immigrants coming from Canada to Punjab. Almost all of them move to the Toronto or Vancouver area. Alot of the immigrant that come are from the villages of the Punjab and not very educated. Also the sad thing is that some of them are marrying there own cousins or paying somebody money to marry them just get a Canadian passport.
I've noticed on this website and other punjabi/sikh related website the topic of the young people not speaking the language or understanding comes up alot.
Yet there is another issue of the older generation among the new immigrants who can't speak English and have very little understanding of the country they live is not the same as the villages of the Punjab. For some reason even bringing up this topic makes alot of people feel uncomfortable.
There is no dearth of immigrants from the Punjab entering Canada. I don’t know on what basis you made that statement. Secondly, in Canada, anyone can learn Punjabi as a second language elective at public schools in British Columbia. Colleges and Universities in British Columbia also teach Punjabi, which is where I learned to read and write the language.
Kaptaan is right there is no shortage of immigrants coming from Canada to Punjab. Almost all of them move to the Toronto or Vancouver area. Alot of the immigrant that come are from the villages of the Punjab and not very educated. Also the sad thing is that some of them are marrying there own cousins or paying somebody money to marry them just get a Canadian passport.
I’ve noticed on this website and other punjabi/sikh related website the topic of the young people not speaking the language or understanding comes up alot.
Yet there is another issue of the older generation among the new immigrants who can’t speak English and have very little understanding of the country they live is not the same as the villages of the Punjab. For some reason even bringing up this topic makes alot of people feel uncomfortable.
Perhaps it's not so much discomfort, but annoyance at your incessant need to state immigrants from Punjab are generally uneducated (implying some sort of lower status to them due to their lack of education), and that the elderly are bad citizens for not being able to speak English.
Canada will survive if our elderly do not all learn to speak English.
Morever, your comment that these individuals do not understand that Canada is different than the villages in Punjab, is utterly stupid. Are you sure you're not spending most of your time with the mentally infirm? Outside of the mentally infirm, I've yet to meet a Punjabi immigrant who was mistaking Canada for a village in the Punjab.
I'm guessing your frustration stems primarily from the lack of assimilation of these immigrants. News flash: these immigrants have no obligation to assimilate to some imaginary concept of Canadian culture that you seem to think exists, and have placed on some grand pedestal.
Your comments regarding your own people serve well to reflect what can only be a sad lack of self-esteem. Spend some time with these "uneducated" and non-English speaking elders – you may learn something and maybe even develop a little bit of pride in your own religion, culture and traditions.
Yes, this is true. There are many instances where Gurbani is referring to the Abrahamic tradition (kateb, kuran, Azraeel, Adam), and also instances where Gurbani is referring to God in a male metaphor (pitha / baap, pir / kanth). However, that is not a license to use patriarchal or Abrahamic language as a default.
Many times Gurbani refers to non-Islamic metaphors and female metaphors, but they are translated in the Abrahamic Christian or male translation. This is because of the shadow of Imperialism on our translators, who are mostly university educated expatriate Indians trying to normalize their Gurbani experience with the English Orientalist academia. In other words, they try to suck up to the man by changing the meaning of the Word of God.
Kaptaan,
In the meantime you will be merely responding to me. Re-read the paragraph. I am talking in the future tense. Now continue your diatribe.
——————
With regards to my statement, by no means was I trying to suggest that immigration to Canada is decreasing at this time.
I wrote that you can see the decrease in Punjabi-language knowledge in THOSE PARTICULAR Canadian families that have been in Canada longer.
Decreasing immigration numbers from Punjab post-9/11 is occurring in the United States. The effects will not be seen for a generation.
Even those that do learn Punjabi language in schools and even in college, I have seen their abilities. In California a few universities teach Punjabi. However, most of the graduates learn to read (although they may not have developed a vocabulary to understand what they are reading), write (little more than basic sentences, not compositions), and speak (about the same as they normally do). Despite the limitations of language instruction (and Punjabi has hardly attained the critical level of language pedagogy as seen in Spanish, English, French, etc.) it is a worthwhile endeavor and Punjabi Sikhs should continue to promote the Punjabi language.
However, Sikhs SHOULD NOT make learning Punjabi the key pursuit in their children learning about Sikhi. They should do exegesis in French, English, Swahili or any language that is most easily understood by their youth.
Perhaps it’s not so much discomfort, but annoyance at your incessant need to state immigrants from Punjab are generally uneducated (implying some sort of lower status to them due to their lack of education), and that the elderly are bad citizens for not being able to speak English.
Canada will survive if our elderly do not all learn to speak English.
Morever, your comment that these individuals do not understand that Canada is different than the villages in Punjab, is utterly stupid. Are you sure you’re not spending most of your time with the mentally infirm? Outside of the mentally infirm, I’ve yet to meet a Punjabi immigrant who was mistaking Canada for a village in the Punjab.
I’m guessing your frustration stems primarily from the lack of assimilation of these immigrants. News flash: these immigrants have no obligation to assimilate to some imaginary concept of Canadian culture that you seem to think exists, and have placed on some grand pedestal.
Your comments regarding your own people serve well to reflect what can only be a sad lack of self-esteem. Spend some time with these “uneducated” and non-English speaking elders – you may learn something and maybe even develop a little bit of pride in your own religion, culture and traditions.
Yes, this is true. There are many instances where Gurbani is referring to the Abrahamic tradition (kateb, kuran, Azraeel, Adam), and also instances where Gurbani is referring to God in a male metaphor (pitha / baap, pir / kanth). However, that is not a license to use patriarchal or Abrahamic language as a default.
Many times Gurbani refers to non-Islamic metaphors and female metaphors, but they are translated in the Abrahamic Christian or male translation. This is because of the shadow of Imperialism on our translators, who are mostly university educated expatriate Indians trying to normalize their Gurbani experience with the English Orientalist academia. In other words, they try to suck up to the man by changing the meaning of the Word of God.
Kaptaan,
In the meantime you will be merely responding to me. Re-read the paragraph. I am talking in the future tense. Now continue your diatribe.
——————
With regards to my statement, by no means was I trying to suggest that immigration to Canada is decreasing at this time.
I wrote that you can see the decrease in Punjabi-language knowledge in THOSE PARTICULAR Canadian families that have been in Canada longer.
Decreasing immigration numbers from Punjab post-9/11 is occurring in the United States. The effects will not be seen for a generation.
Even those that do learn Punjabi language in schools and even in college, I have seen their abilities. In California a few universities teach Punjabi. However, most of the graduates learn to read (although they may not have developed a vocabulary to understand what they are reading), write (little more than basic sentences, not compositions), and speak (about the same as they normally do). Despite the limitations of language instruction (and Punjabi has hardly attained the critical level of language pedagogy as seen in Spanish, English, French, etc.) it is a worthwhile endeavor and Punjabi Sikhs should continue to promote the Punjabi language.
However, Sikhs SHOULD NOT make learning Punjabi the key pursuit in their children learning about Sikhi. They should do exegesis in French, English, Swahili or any language that is most easily understood by their youth.
Suki, we've covered language barriers (Punjabi –> English) several times in the past. Please feel free to browse through the archives.
For those who've read works in translation and in the original, it's clear that there's often a huge difference in meaning, context, and interpretation. I think the folks at STTM have done an admirable job in trying to provide a literal translation (albeit clunky at times), but beyond understanding Punjabi, it becomes important to understand the context in which it's used. It's not uncommon for faith traditions to ask their adherents to learn the language of Scripture — this is true for Jews who participate in the bar/bat mitzvah in reading Hebrew, but perhaps more clear is the experience of Muslims who seek to understand Koranic Arabic. I think the move towards English translation comes from the desire for non-Punjabi speaking Sikhs to understand Gurbani (if you don't understand Punjabi and are just repeating words, isn't this similar to mindless repetition or chanting?). I think a more useful and helpful initiative would be more widespread and focused Punjabi language courses through religious centers. It's difficult because most congregations lack formal instructors, time, support, and attendance to teach more active classes, but I've certainly seen this pop up organically. I think English translations are fine (although not ideal) so long as it's understood that they're not a substitute for learning Punjabi.
Suki, we’ve covered language barriers (Punjabi –> English) several times in the past. Please feel free to browse through the archives.
For those who’ve read works in translation and in the original, it’s clear that there’s often a huge difference in meaning, context, and interpretation. I think the folks at STTM have done an admirable job in trying to provide a literal translation (albeit clunky at times), but beyond understanding Punjabi, it becomes important to understand the context in which it’s used. It’s not uncommon for faith traditions to ask their adherents to learn the language of Scripture — this is true for Jews who participate in the bar/bat mitzvah in reading Hebrew, but perhaps more clear is the experience of Muslims who seek to understand Koranic Arabic. I think the move towards English translation comes from the desire for non-Punjabi speaking Sikhs to understand Gurbani (if you don’t understand Punjabi and are just repeating words, isn’t this similar to mindless repetition or chanting?). I think a more useful and helpful initiative would be more widespread and focused Punjabi language courses through religious centers. It’s difficult because most congregations lack formal instructors, time, support, and attendance to teach more active classes, but I’ve certainly seen this pop up organically. I think English translations are fine (although not ideal) so long as it’s understood that they’re not a substitute for learning Punjabi.
[quote comment="3264"]What kind of problems have you found with STTM? Would you care to acquaint us on the issue of opening bhangra schools in Gurudwaras, will this help the Sikh youth? This is suggested in the Fresno bee article by a representative of one of the Gurudwaras there.[/quote]
Har, can you please quote that part of the article? I am having a hard time finding it.
[quote comment=”3264″]What kind of problems have you found with STTM? Would you care to acquaint us on the issue of opening bhangra schools in Gurudwaras, will this help the Sikh youth? This is suggested in the Fresno bee article by a representative of one of the Gurudwaras there.[/quote]
Har, can you please quote that part of the article? I am having a hard time finding it.
Morever, your comment that these individuals do not understand that Canada is different than the villages in Punjab, is utterly stupid. Are you sure you’re not spending most of your time with the mentally infirm? Outside of the mentally infirm, I’ve yet to meet a Punjabi immigrant who was mistaking Canada for a village in the Punjab.
It's good to see P.Singh that any time that you don't agree with anyone that you have to go on a personal attack. There are many in our community who still live with 1950 values in our community when it comes to the treatment of women among other things and stupid things like family honor.
I’m guessing your frustration stems primarily from the lack of assimilation of these immigrants. News flash: these immigrants have no obligation to assimilate to some imaginary concept of Canadian culture that you seem to think exists, and have placed on some grand pedestal.
So these immigrants have no reason to adapt to there new home, and keep there old way of thinking.Funny the same thing is happening in Europe and the backlash has started there over immigrants not intergrated into the culture of there new homeland. And you saying that Canada has no culture is very racist, cause of somebody said that punjab has no culture I have feeling that you would be very upset.
Decreasing immigration numbers from Punjab post-9/11 is occurring in the United States. The effects will not be seen for a generation.
On many other south asians websites I have seen stories about how the south asian/ Indo-American population has grown very much this decade. The thing is that United States has a different immigration policy then Canada or England and its a little harder for punjabi immigrants to come to the US then the other 2 countries.
Suki, we’ve covered language barriers (Punjabi –> English) several times in the past. Please feel free to browse through the archives.
Camille I'm sorry if I'm going offtopic but im my younger days it would drive me crazy when some older punjabi person in the USA/Canada would badmouth my parents for saying they spoke English to me and my siblings and did a bad job as parents. Yet at the same time these people couldn't speak English and if said that people would get mad at me.I also have a daughter and I speak to her English and get I'm just tired of other people telling me to speak to her in Punjabi.
Morever, your comment that these individuals do not understand that Canada is different than the villages in Punjab, is utterly stupid. Are you sure you’re not spending most of your time with the mentally infirm? Outside of the mentally infirm, I’ve yet to meet a Punjabi immigrant who was mistaking Canada for a village in the Punjab.
It’s good to see P.Singh that any time that you don’t agree with anyone that you have to go on a personal attack. There are many in our community who still live with 1950 values in our community when it comes to the treatment of women among other things and stupid things like family honor.
I’m guessing your frustration stems primarily from the lack of assimilation of these immigrants. News flash: these immigrants have no obligation to assimilate to some imaginary concept of Canadian culture that you seem to think exists, and have placed on some grand pedestal.
So these immigrants have no reason to adapt to there new home, and keep there old way of thinking.Funny the same thing is happening in Europe and the backlash has started there over immigrants not intergrated into the culture of there new homeland. And you saying that Canada has no culture is very racist, cause of somebody said that punjab has no culture I have feeling that you would be very upset.
Decreasing immigration numbers from Punjab post-9/11 is occurring in the United States. The effects will not be seen for a generation.
On many other south asians websites I have seen stories about how the south asian/ Indo-American population has grown very much this decade. The thing is that United States has a different immigration policy then Canada or England and its a little harder for punjabi immigrants to come to the US then the other 2 countries.
Suki, we’ve covered language barriers (Punjabi –> English) several times in the past. Please feel free to browse through the archives.
Camille I’m sorry if I’m going offtopic but im my younger days it would drive me crazy when some older punjabi person in the USA/Canada would badmouth my parents for saying they spoke English to me and my siblings and did a bad job as parents. Yet at the same time these people couldn’t speak English and if said that people would get mad at me.I also have a daughter and I speak to her English and get I’m just tired of other people telling me to speak to her in Punjabi.
i have a daughter and I speak to her in Punjabi and English and Spanish (whatever tootti bhajji spanish i know that is). She soaks it up. Wants to know more about punjabi without being told. I read her english language books to her in Punjabi she loves it. Is somehow proud that she can speak two languages and the other kids at her pre-school only know one-and she is only four.
The reason I do it is because I know she will learn english easily just by living and going to school here in the US. But I would be sad if she couldn't understand the theth punjabi that my wife and I speak to each other or to our parents. I would be sad if I couldnt atleast pass a tiny bit of a thousand year old culture to her. I would be sad if she heard a boli and didnt get it. Or if a punjabi speaking person asked her for help and she couldn't understand him/her. If she didnt get the mindless practice of religion I wouldn't care so much, but if she didnt get the spirit of Sikhism-I would be sad.
i have a daughter and I speak to her in Punjabi and English and Spanish (whatever tootti bhajji spanish i know that is). She soaks it up. Wants to know more about punjabi without being told. I read her english language books to her in Punjabi she loves it. Is somehow proud that she can speak two languages and the other kids at her pre-school only know one-and she is only four.
The reason I do it is because I know she will learn english easily just by living and going to school here in the US. But I would be sad if she couldn’t understand the theth punjabi that my wife and I speak to each other or to our parents. I would be sad if I couldnt atleast pass a tiny bit of a thousand year old culture to her. I would be sad if she heard a boli and didnt get it. Or if a punjabi speaking person asked her for help and she couldn’t understand him/her. If she didnt get the mindless practice of religion I wouldn’t care so much, but if she didnt get the spirit of Sikhism-I would be sad.
Not calling you stupid – I'm calling your assertion that elderly Punjabis mistake Canada for another village in India stupid; do not assume their lack of English is somehow indicative of a lack of intelligence in general.
I think you'll find concepts of 'family honor' and mistreatment of women are found amongst English-speaking Punjabis to more-or-less the same extent as amongst those who speak only Punjabi.
Integration is a far cry different than assimilation in my books. I have not met many immigrant families who refuse to integrate into their new homeland. This does not mean these new immigrants must shed everything from their native land to truly become Canadian.
We've discussed Canadian culture in previous threads, and I fail to see how my comment is racist – which race I am demeaning? Is there a Canadian race? While you're at it, go ahead and explain Canadian culture to me as well – I'm interested in hearing how Anglo-Saxon I have to be in order to be considered Canadian.
Not calling you stupid – I’m calling your assertion that elderly Punjabis mistake Canada for another village in India stupid; do not assume their lack of English is somehow indicative of a lack of intelligence in general.
I think you’ll find concepts of ‘family honor’ and mistreatment of women are found amongst English-speaking Punjabis to more-or-less the same extent as amongst those who speak only Punjabi.
Suki et al.,
Studies show that people who learn more than one language as children have greater brain activity and find learning new languages easier than people who grow up unilingual.
I believe that it's a disservice to one's child if you only speak to the child in English in Canada. A child will learn english regardless from watching cartoons and/ or going to school.
In Canada, a punjabi speaking child has the opportunity to be trilingual, by learning Punjabi, English and French. You are setting your child up for greater success by teaching the child Punjabi.
The people who told your parents to speak to you in Punjabi were trying to do YOU a favour.
What I've seen often is immigrant parents speaking to their child in accented broken english when they could easily speak to them in Punjabi. I find it kind of funny in a "who's kidding who" kind of way. Many times I believe these people are trying 'ape' english speakers from India and appear 'more refined'… (and that type of behaviour is called 'aping' for a reason)
I tend to regard those people as foolish because that's how they appear in public and, according to the linked article above, the latest empirical evidence.
Maybe I'm just being judgmental.
regards,
Kaptaan
Integration is a far cry different than assimilation in my books. I have not met many immigrant families who refuse to integrate into their new homeland. This does not mean these new immigrants must shed everything from their native land to truly become Canadian.
We’ve discussed Canadian culture in previous threads, and I fail to see how my comment is racist – which race I am demeaning? Is there a Canadian race? While you’re at it, go ahead and explain Canadian culture to me as well – I’m interested in hearing how Anglo-Saxon I have to be in order to be considered Canadian.
Suki et al.,
Studies show that people who learn more than one language as children have greater brain activity and find learning new languages easier than people who grow up unilingual.
I believe that it’s a disservice to one’s child if you only speak to the child in English in Canada. A child will learn english regardless from watching cartoons and/ or going to school.
In Canada, a punjabi speaking child has the opportunity to be trilingual, by learning Punjabi, English and French. You are setting your child up for greater success by teaching the child Punjabi.
The people who told your parents to speak to you in Punjabi were trying to do YOU a favour.
What I’ve seen often is immigrant parents speaking to their child in accented broken english when they could easily speak to them in Punjabi. I find it kind of funny in a “who’s kidding who” kind of way. Many times I believe these people are trying ‘ape’ english speakers from India and appear ‘more refined’… (and that type of behaviour is called ‘aping’ for a reason)
I tend to regard those people as foolish because that’s how they appear in public and, according to the linked article above, the latest empirical evidence.
Maybe I’m just being judgmental.
regards,
Kaptaan
Maybe I’m just being judgmental.
Kaptaan I respect your views and the right to disagree unlike someone else there.
My point is that if people tell me that I should speak punjabi, then I have the same right to say that they should speak English, without world war 3 breaking out cause people get upset with me.
I have a white friend who used to work in the hostipal in Surrey, BC and she used to get very frustrated with dealing with patients that could not speak English, almost all of them were punjabi. I guess my friend is a racist cause she things people in Canada should learn English. Then that would make most in Canada racist, cause I bet many feel that way.
Maybe I’m just being judgmental.
Kaptaan I respect your views and the right to disagree unlike someone else there.
My point is that if people tell me that I should speak punjabi, then I have the same right to say that they should speak English, without world war 3 breaking out cause people get upset with me.
I have a white friend who used to work in the hostipal in Surrey, BC and she used to get very frustrated with dealing with patients that could not speak English, almost all of them were punjabi. I guess my friend is a racist cause she things people in Canada should learn English. Then that would make most in Canada racist, cause I bet many feel that way.
Suki,
Thanks for the comments.
I don't disagree that people who have to interact with non-punjabi speakers should learn enough english to get by. It's a matter of their own safety and others if they ever have to give any information to emergency or healthcare workers, and economics if their job is involved. How people react when you tell them to learn English, well, I would suggest that if you do it diplomatically and take the high ground they might not be so put off. But it shouldn't be a cause for confrontation.
The issue that I have with Surrey, is that despite the large immigrant Punjabi population, the mayor, city council, and other public institutions like hospitals haven't begun to reflect the demographic shift nor make decisions that reflect the requirements of that immigrant group. I find it interesting how Sikhs were denied the zoning to build a punjabi language daycare in a neighbourhood despite addressing parking and other issues. That's one example and there are many others that I'd rather not get into here.
But suffice to say, that I understand your position re: people needing to learn some English (if only for survival reasons). If you want my unsolicited advice, any child would be better off knowing a subcontinental language and Punjabi is as good or better to know than any other. More to the point, I firmly believe that learning Punjabi and having a moral and spiritual grounding in Sikh dharm is a good base for a child (Punjabi as a foundation can help in understanding words in Gurbani, at least that's been my experience).
Suki,
Thanks for the comments.
I don’t disagree that people who have to interact with non-punjabi speakers should learn enough english to get by. It’s a matter of their own safety and others if they ever have to give any information to emergency or healthcare workers, and economics if their job is involved. How people react when you tell them to learn English, well, I would suggest that if you do it diplomatically and take the high ground they might not be so put off. But it shouldn’t be a cause for confrontation.
The issue that I have with Surrey, is that despite the large immigrant Punjabi population, the mayor, city council, and other public institutions like hospitals haven’t begun to reflect the demographic shift nor make decisions that reflect the requirements of that immigrant group. I find it interesting how Sikhs were denied the zoning to build a punjabi language daycare in a neighbourhood despite addressing parking and other issues. That’s one example and there are many others that I’d rather not get into here.
But suffice to say, that I understand your position re: people needing to learn some English (if only for survival reasons). If you want my unsolicited advice, any child would be better off knowing a subcontinental language and Punjabi is as good or better to know than any other. More to the point, I firmly believe that learning Punjabi and having a moral and spiritual grounding in Sikh dharm is a good base for a child (Punjabi as a foundation can help in understanding words in Gurbani, at least that’s been my experience).
Suki,
I have a friend who is doing clinical rotation in Surrey at this moment. She loves her elderly Punjabi patients (especially those who do not speak English). She thinks they are quiet healthy (heart diseases, diabetes) compared to her patients here in the U.S.
In my own experience, especially in Boston the immigrant patients with very limited English proficiency usually took more responsibility in taking care of their health (despite language barriers) compared to patients from local area who spoke English.
Suki,
I have a friend who is doing clinical rotation in Surrey at this moment. She loves her elderly Punjabi patients (especially those who do not speak English). She thinks they are quiet healthy (heart diseases, diabetes) compared to her patients here in the U.S.
In my own experience, especially in Boston the immigrant patients with very limited English proficiency usually took more responsibility in taking care of their health (despite language barriers) compared to patients from local area who spoke English.
I used to volunteer my time at Surrey Memorial Hospital as an interpreter in the Emergency Room. While there were many nurses who were caring and gentle with all patients, regardless of language skills, there were some nurses who were incredibly callous and inconsiderate with Punjabi patients, especially elderly Punjabi patients.
These self-righteous nurses would act as if it was a huge burden on them to provide care to these elderly Punjabis, would talk down to them, and in more then one case, yell at them….as if yelling would better their comprehension of English. Lack of English or not, these Punjabi 'buzargs' knew they were being treated as second-class citizens, knew they were being demeaned, and were hurt by it.
I could not stand these pompous, idiot nurses, and from what you've said of your nurse friend – she may be of the same ilk.
Many of our elderly did not have an opportunity to receive English instruction in India and circumstances may not have allowed them even a basic education in Punjabi. This does not mean they are sub-human or not deserving of the same respect we afford to those who learned English.
That a nurse working in a predominantly Punjabi city, would become "very frustrated" at her patients' lack of English skills, indicates the nurse does not understand the demographics at play. I would hope that her frustration did not result in the type of unprofessional behaviour I mentioned above or other discourtesy to those lacking English language skills.
That a nurse working in a predominantly Punjabi city, would become “very frustrated” at her patients’ lack of English skills, indicates the nurse does not understand the demographics at play. I would hope that her frustration did not result in the type of unprofessional behaviour I mentioned above or other discourtesy to those lacking English language skills.
Surrey has a big punjabi community but is still around 20% of the population.
I could not stand these pompous, idiot nurses, and from what you’ve said of your nurse friend – she may be of the same ilk.
P.Singh so these nurses who idiots and my friend must be like them too, even though you don't know her.
Many of our elderly did not have an opportunity to receive English instruction in India and circumstances may not have allowed them even a basic education in Punjabi. This does not mean they are sub-human or not deserving of the same respect we afford to those who learned English.
When I have said these people are sub-human. I just saying Canadians of other background get frustrated when they have to deal with people who don't speak English in country where English is the language you need to survive with.
I used to volunteer my time at Surrey Memorial Hospital as an interpreter in the Emergency Room. While there were many nurses who were caring and gentle with all patients, regardless of language skills, there were some nurses who were incredibly callous and inconsiderate with Punjabi patients, especially elderly Punjabi patients.
These self-righteous nurses would act as if it was a huge burden on them to provide care to these elderly Punjabis, would talk down to them, and in more then one case, yell at them….as if yelling would better their comprehension of English. Lack of English or not, these Punjabi ‘buzargs’ knew they were being treated as second-class citizens, knew they were being demeaned, and were hurt by it.
I could not stand these pompous, idiot nurses, and from what you’ve said of your nurse friend – she may be of the same ilk.
Many of our elderly did not have an opportunity to receive English instruction in India and circumstances may not have allowed them even a basic education in Punjabi. This does not mean they are sub-human or not deserving of the same respect we afford to those who learned English.
That a nurse working in a predominantly Punjabi city, would become “very frustrated” at her patients’ lack of English skills, indicates the nurse does not understand the demographics at play. I would hope that her frustration did not result in the type of unprofessional behaviour I mentioned above or other discourtesy to those lacking English language skills.
That a nurse working in a predominantly Punjabi city, would become “very frustrated” at her patients’ lack of English skills, indicates the nurse does not understand the demographics at play. I would hope that her frustration did not result in the type of unprofessional behaviour I mentioned above or other discourtesy to those lacking English language skills.
Surrey has a big punjabi community but is still around 20% of the population.
I could not stand these pompous, idiot nurses, and from what you’ve said of your nurse friend – she may be of the same ilk.
P.Singh so these nurses who idiots and my friend must be like them too, even though you don’t know her.
Many of our elderly did not have an opportunity to receive English instruction in India and circumstances may not have allowed them even a basic education in Punjabi. This does not mean they are sub-human or not deserving of the same respect we afford to those who learned English.
When I have said these people are sub-human. I just saying Canadians of other background get frustrated when they have to deal with people who don’t speak English in country where English is the language you need to survive with.
[quote comment="3410"]That a nurse working in a predominantly Punjabi city, would become “very frustrated” at her patients’ lack of English skills, indicates the nurse does not understand the demographics at play. I would hope that her frustration did not result in the type of unprofessional behaviour I mentioned above or other discourtesy to those lacking English language skills.
Surrey has a big punjabi community but is still around 20% of the population.[/quote]
Regardless, a nurse or any other professional employed in Surrey should be well-aware of the language issues existing in that area. For a nurse in Surrey to become "very frustrated" because patients could not converse in English, is akin to me opening up a shop in Chinatown and then getting angry because many of the elderly speak only Cantonese or Mandarin.
[quote comment="3411"]I could not stand these pompous, idiot nurses, and from what you’ve said of your nurse friend – she may be of the same ilk.
P.Singh so these nurses who idiots and my friend must be like them too, even though you don't know her.[/quote]
Your friend becoming "very frustrated" at the lack of English, paralleled many of the same justifications/excuses spouted by the 'idiot nurses' I confronted from time to time, when I was volunteering.
If your friend can remain "very frustrated" and still remain pleasant and courteous to those who are causing her to be "very frustrated" – then that is terrific – I'd buy her a sundae for her remarkable restraint, and recommend counselling to help with her frustration.
[quote comment=”3410″]That a nurse working in a predominantly Punjabi city, would become “very frustrated” at her patients’ lack of English skills, indicates the nurse does not understand the demographics at play. I would hope that her frustration did not result in the type of unprofessional behaviour I mentioned above or other discourtesy to those lacking English language skills.
Surrey has a big punjabi community but is still around 20% of the population.[/quote]
Regardless, a nurse or any other professional employed in Surrey should be well-aware of the language issues existing in that area. For a nurse in Surrey to become “very frustrated” because patients could not converse in English, is akin to me opening up a shop in Chinatown and then getting angry because many of the elderly speak only Cantonese or Mandarin.
[quote comment=”3411″]I could not stand these pompous, idiot nurses, and from what you’ve said of your nurse friend – she may be of the same ilk.
P.Singh so these nurses who idiots and my friend must be like them too, even though you don’t know her.[/quote]
Your friend becoming “very frustrated” at the lack of English, paralleled many of the same justifications/excuses spouted by the ‘idiot nurses’ I confronted from time to time, when I was volunteering.
If your friend can remain “very frustrated” and still remain pleasant and courteous to those who are causing her to be “very frustrated” – then that is terrific – I’d buy her a sundae for her remarkable restraint, and recommend counselling to help with her frustration.
Regardless, a nurse or any other professional employed in Surrey should be well-aware of the language issues existing in that area. For a nurse in Surrey to become “very frustrated” because patients could not converse in English, is akin to me opening up a shop in Chinatown and then getting angry because many of the elderly speak only Cantonese or Mandarin.
Working in hostipal is not the same as opening a shop in ethinic part of town. I guess this could be like a punjabi immigrant moving to english speaking country and getting angry that most people don't speak punjabi. And for the last time alot more people in Surrey still speak English then punjabi.
Your friend becoming “very frustrated” at the lack of English, paralleled many of the same justifications/excuses spouted by the ‘idiot nurses’ I confronted from time to time, when I was volunteering.
Can you still explain to me why these nurses are idiots, and I have feeling that you don't have the guts to tell that them to there face.
Regardless, a nurse or any other professional employed in Surrey should be well-aware of the language issues existing in that area. For a nurse in Surrey to become “very frustrated” because patients could not converse in English, is akin to me opening up a shop in Chinatown and then getting angry because many of the elderly speak only Cantonese or Mandarin.
Working in hostipal is not the same as opening a shop in ethinic part of town. I guess this could be like a punjabi immigrant moving to english speaking country and getting angry that most people don’t speak punjabi. And for the last time alot more people in Surrey still speak English then punjabi.
Your friend becoming “very frustrated” at the lack of English, paralleled many of the same justifications/excuses spouted by the ‘idiot nurses’ I confronted from time to time, when I was volunteering.
Can you still explain to me why these nurses are idiots, and I have feeling that you don’t have the guts to tell that them to there face.