Latest Update on Sikhs and Dera SachKhand from the Punjab
My last post was about what we knew at that time. Since then, there are new updates.
After the attack in the Vienna temple (actually a dera of the Sach Khand group), there are news confirmations that Sant Rama Nand has passed away from his injuries, while the Dera head Niranjan Das is in stable condition.
There are also reports of violence in Punjab. IBN live reports the death of 2 people in the Doaba region and also one should note that it seems that the army has been called in to parts of Punjab.
One person was killed and four others were injured as Army jawans opened fire in Lambra village, 30 kms from Jalandhar. Another person was killed after the police opened fire on protesters at Jalandhar Cantonment railway station. [link]
In some ways I believe that this is a tragedy of the 80s and 90s.
Although caste consciousness has long plagued the community, despite the clarion call from our Gurus, those that ideologically joined the movement forged a true brotherhood (Singhs) and sisterhood (Kaurs) (for anecdotes, see Fighting for Faith and Nation) that went beyond caste.
However, there were still those vestiges in rural Sikh society that downplayed the heroic role of the Sikh Dalits (or as Guru Gobind Singh once said, Rangretas). The Indian State (represented by KPS Gill) completely tried to negate the role of the wider Sikh community and label the movement as only an intra-Jat Sikh affair. The reason for this is completely understandable on the side of the Indian State. The revolutionary potential of Sikh Dalits could shake all of South Asia. The Gurus understood this and thus channeled the rebellious spirit of the downtrodden into a Gurmat-based revolution. What is truly a travesty is that the Indian State’s story of downplaying the contributions of other groups within the Sikh Qaum has largely been bought by the Sikhs themselves. Many Sikhs even view the movement as some Jat movement, thus losing its revolutionary nature and becoming nothing more than a peasant uprising.
Since the 1990s, various Deras have been successful at dividing the Sikhs amongst castes. If Dera Sach Khand is successful, the Sikhs should not point the finger at none other than themselves. True, that others may play roles and others may have interests, but if I can borrow a term from another religious group – the “original sin” lies with us. Giani Dit Singh was a shining beacon of the Singh Sabha movement. The Singh Sabha’s success and in some way that of the Sikh Revolution, in general, lied in its ability to end caste-consciousness and forge a community of true brothers and sisters. In so many ways the Singh Sabha is attacked today by many different sides, but they are blind to its truly revolutionary nature. If Sikhs take up the call of equality again, then as a community we have a future. I strongly urge for Sikhs to join their brothers and sisters at Bhagat Ravi Das Sabhas, other “caste Gurdwaras”, etc. and begin the conversations for us all to begin a new revolutionary movement in Sikhi. If this conversation can begin in the face of this tragedy, then maybe as a Qaum we can all be better.
132 Responses to “Latest Update on Sikhs and Dera SachKhand from the Punjab”
Violence, in any form is bad.This is inhumanity. This shows how animal instincts has delved deep into the very genes of people.
I strongly condemn the acts of violence that is being unleashed in PUNJAB. Who is fighting with whom ? We are all brothers. I pray to Lord to bless all the people with sanity. Peace must prevail at all costs.
Having said that, I must ask, who started it all ? Those idiots who attacked in Vienna.. did they know what would be the repercussions?
And regarding, covert threat that jatt/Sikhs are planning a ‘robust defense’ I want to tell you that, that would be idiotic too. Any adverse action could be detrimental to the peace of the country which we desperately need. Dalit comprises more than 50% of India. This could be very dangerous, if situation goes out of hand especially outside Punjab.
Moreover,may I ask, where did your Mardanagi vanish, against the perpetrators of 1984 sikh violence. They are still at large. Where did your ‘robust defense’ go when Americans attack sikhs for Talibans ? Where do the jatt/sikh organisations go when European police enter Gurudwaras with their shoes on and beat people inside of the Gurudwaras.This is certainly not be-adbi to you. Has anybody dared to fight europeans or americans ?
When it comes to the helpless downtrodden, your selective ‘robust defense’ comes into being.
great.
Is all your Mardanagi for the dalits only ?
[…] Il commento più appropriato a questa desolante situazione ci sembra quello fatto da un giovane blogger sikh: «Credo che questa sia una tragedia degli anni ‘80 e ‘90, quando in Punjab c’era la guerra […]
First of all, since I advocated the plight of dalits, you called me names ! That speaks volumes of your intellect. Anyways, let me take it, for, jatt is as much a chamar. If you have some doubt about that, please read bani. That will probably open your eyes.
You did not explaine about your mardanagi which I asked of you. Okay, I can understand. When some one is short of arguments he becomes loud and abusive.
Your lack of history comes to fore. Why should someone blame you ? Dont you know you are a shudra ? Jatt is amongst the most backwarded castes of India.I am not sure, but I have been told that in many states they "enjoy" reservation. This is different matter that in North India, they prospered by virtue of lands. But that made them forget that Jatt is shudra as per brahminical system. Kindly go through the system again. That will help you.
Your forefathers being shudra were equally tortured. Dont worry for me. Grieve for them.
Again, you people in a fit of fury venture out to write like philosophers without even knowing the subject fully. You said positive discrimination ? Strange word. As far as I know, discrimination can only be negative. Dalits welcomed Symon Commission. They demanded a seperate home land. Dr. Ambedkar, who belonged to Mahar caste (Maharashtra, remember ?) championed the cause and strongly put up the case. The case was so strong that the English had to agree with him. He reasoned that since dalits were economically weaker, they would remain slaves to your slaves.That eventually proved true. This was decided on the famous 'Round Table Conference' of London. Gandhi having noticed this become very tense. He had been cherishing dream of become rashtarpita but that was well against his dream. He did what he was best at. He went on "hunger stike". When his health started deteriorating, dalits became targets again. Gandhi said he would shun his fast only if Dr Ambedkar would forgo his demand. Due to attacks on dalits, Dr Ambedkar with bleeding heart acceded to Gandhi's demand. But he was assured 10% reservation in return. This was nothing but he agreed. This was said to be Dr. Ambedkar's great blunder. Now people behave as if 10% reservation was a donation. It was not. It was a cost of Gandhi's life.
As far as your bravery is concerned, tell me : How many Sikh surmas were Jatts ? By the way, did you know the history of Jatts?
I doubt.
We hear of some jatts in the time of 10th Master viz Ralla, Dalla Brar etc. Every body knows they ran away from the battlefield leaving the Master alone. When Master enquired about them, Pir Budhu Shah replied," Maharaj, na Dalla, na Ralla; Reh gaya Guru kalla". To which Maharaj replied smilingly,"Pir ji. Guru Kade na Kalla, Guru Nal Sada hi Allah!"
Great Sikh wariors like Hari Singh Nalwa, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, Jassa Singh Ramgaria.. . etc, No one was jatt. Where were the jatts when Head and body of Guru Teg Bahadur sahib was to be had ?
How many jats came forward when guru asked of "heads" on that famous Baisakhi ? Guru Gobind Singh ji was and still is Guru of dalits. You came from nowhere !
When some one like you asked the Guru why he had so many dalits with him. All form lower castes. Guru said : If someone is to see how to do service, just look at these people. And I win wars because of their parshad (Sev kari inhi ki bhawat; Yudh jite inhi ke parsad)
Bhai Sahab Nand Lal Goya, upon seeing his dalit love, uttered :
Kadir-e-Harqar Guru Gobind Singh;
Be-kasan-ra yaar Guru Gobind Singh.
[Dostam = Daljit Singh = the number of different handles you have used. Sock-puppeting is STRICTLY prohibited in The Langar Hall. Stick to Dostam now. If you switch again, you will be banned. Admin Singh]
What is the point of me replying to your farcical nonsense when the replies just get deleted?
Suffice to say your surface didn't need to be scratched too deeply for your true colours to show through, you ask now from the safety of your computer screen where is the bravery of the Jats? Be-sharam ki aulad…
@Manjit Singh, you are completely right. You have to be a human being first before you can even think about being a true representative of Sikhi. Amazingly, when people identify themselves as caste members they seem to forget this is not found in any religious text. The simple reason that the majority of Indians is nowadays from families of lower caste status is the small families from the economic successfull higher caste families. So if people like Gurcharn Nagra think that caste divisions will be in favour of Jatt Sikhs, think again. The future will see an increasing number of families of lower caste status in all religions and a decreasing number of people from families of higher caste status.
Higher caste families can not expect to follow western lifestyle of luxury, small families and comfort and at the same time hold all positions of power within religious affairs.
Common boy. Behave !
Perhaps, that's not your fault. This is a matter of sanskars ! That's how you have been braught up. Its fine.
Please dont vitiate the atmosphere with your loud mouthedness !
If you have something constructive. Go ahead. If not better to keep it shut.
Jatts are a race, not a caste…
[Gurcharn and Dostum, it seems both of you are thoughtful individuals. Let us not resort to name-calling or bringing up 19th century discredited social darwinism. Are we able to find points of understanding and connection, or will we be limited to bickering and further division? We are allowing you to continue conversing, so long as both of you mind, the ad-hominem attacks. We are interested in conversation and dialogue in The Langar Hall, NOT debating….Admin Singh]
To Miss Kaur,
Been reading your posts, and you seem to an intelligent,educated,progressive person.
Your comments – "They use Guru Granth Sahib Ji, they choose to follow parts of Bani that is written by a particular person hence making caste divisions etc. The Maryada of Guru Maharaj is affected, most of these cultist places do not keep Maharaj correctly eg performing Praksah at Amritvela and Sukhasan at night. "
From your knowledge, do you think ALL the banis of 50 or so BHagats is in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, or only selections that the Gurus thought to be relevant ? I believe Not all of Kabirs sayings are in the Guru Granth Sahib. Wont these communities complain to us of the same things that you are complaining about ?
Should we permit others to take the sayings of our Gurus and come up with their own versions ?
I feel overanalysis is a fruitless direction to go into, but that is the path of education and reasoning that you seem to advocate.
@admin
This is Daljit Singh Cheema.
'Dostum' is my takhallus which means "my friend"
I like this a lot. This will be used forthwith.
Thanks.
There is no race except human race.
"Manas ki jaat sabhai ekai pehchanbo"
"Ek Pita, Ekas ke hum barik"
This is the spirit of Sikhi. But then, what you people have to do with sikhi ?
There is no point telling you about that.
For someone who grew up in Bombay, all sikhs seemed the same to me, until I came to California, went to a gurdwara because the langar is quite tasty and was reminded that sikhs like not to be referred to as an extension of hindus. So someone please explain this dalit vs non dalit sikhs to the rest of us. What's the big deal? wasn't sikhism formed to take the best of hinduism and islam and other religions? Me thinks, all sikhs are an enigma, jovial, progressive at one time and irrational zealots at other times, even after dating a few. Most sikhs I have known are dying to get rid of their turbans and come out. Why doesn't one of the current religious heads just say all sikhs are equal, no caste based religion is tolerated in sikhism ( or any religion in India). I think scientific research now indicates that caste is not genetic based. But the decree must come from the so called upper caste sikhs and hindus. It is time. On a lighter note we need more of you guys not less to man our armies, more sikh jokes and spread the good looks by inter-mixing, so stop killing one another.
First of all, since I advocated the plight of dalits, you called me names ! That speaks volumes of your intellect. Anyways, let me take it, for, jatt is as much a chamar. If you have some doubt about that, please read bani. That will probably open your eyes.
You did not explaine about your mardanagi which I asked of you. Okay, I can understand. When some one is short of arguments he becomes loud and abusive.
Your lack of history comes to fore. Why should someone blame you ? Dont you know you are a shudra ? Jatt is amongst the most backwarded castes of India.I am not sure, but I have been told that in many states they “enjoy” reservation. This is different matter that in North India, they prospered by virtue of lands. But that made them forget that Jatt is shudra as per brahminical system. Kindly go through the system again. That will help you.
Your forefathers being shudra were equally tortured. Dont worry for me. Grieve for them.
Again, you people in a fit of fury venture out to write like philosophers without even knowing the subject fully. You said positive discrimination ? Strange word. As far as I know, discrimination can only be negative. Dalits welcomed Symon Commission. They demanded a seperate home land. Dr. Ambedkar, who belonged to Mahar caste (Maharashtra, remember ?) championed the cause and strongly put up the case. The case was so strong that the English had to agree with him. He reasoned that since dalits were economically weaker, they would remain slaves to your slaves.That eventually proved true. This was decided on the famous ‘Round Table Conference’ of London. Gandhi having noticed this become very tense. He had been cherishing dream of become rashtarpita but that was well against his dream. He did what he was best at. He went on “hunger stike”. When his health started deteriorating, dalits became targets again. Gandhi said he would shun his fast only if Dr Ambedkar would forgo his demand. Due to attacks on dalits, Dr Ambedkar with bleeding heart acceded to Gandhi’s demand. But he was assured 10% reservation in return. This was nothing but he agreed. This was said to be Dr. Ambedkar’s great blunder. Now people behave as if 10% reservation was a donation. It was not. It was a cost of Gandhi’s life.
As far as your bravery is concerned, tell me : How many Sikh surmas were Jatts ? By the way, did you know the history of Jatts?
I doubt.
We hear of some jatts in the time of 10th Master viz Ralla, Dalla Brar etc. Every body knows they ran away from the battlefield leaving the Master alone. When Master enquired about them, Pir Budhu Shah replied,” Maharaj, na Dalla, na Ralla; Reh gaya Guru kalla”. To which Maharaj replied smilingly,”Pir ji. Guru Kade na Kalla, Guru Nal Sada hi Allah!”
Great Sikh wariors like Hari Singh Nalwa, Jassa Singh Ahluwalia, Jassa Singh Ramgaria.. . etc, No one was jatt. Where were the jatts when Head and body of Guru Teg Bahadur sahib was to be had ?
How many jats came forward when guru asked of “heads” on that famous Baisakhi ? Guru Gobind Singh ji was and still is Guru of dalits. You came from nowhere !
When some one like you asked the Guru why he had so many dalits with him. All form lower castes. Guru said : If someone is to see how to do service, just look at these people. And I win wars because of their parshad (Sev kari inhi ki bhawat; Yudh jite inhi ke parsad)
Bhai Sahab Nand Lal Goya, upon seeing his dalit love, uttered :
Kadir-e-Harqar Guru Gobind Singh;
Be-kasan-ra yaar Guru Gobind Singh.
[Dostam = Daljit Singh = the number of different handles you have used. Sock-puppeting is STRICTLY prohibited in The Langar Hall. Stick to Dostam now. If you switch again, you will be banned. Admin Singh]
What is the point of me replying to your farcical nonsense when the replies just get deleted?
Suffice to say your surface didn’t need to be scratched too deeply for your true colours to show through, you ask now from the safety of your computer screen where is the bravery of the Jats? Be-sharam ki aulad…
Gurcharn and Dostum, it seems both of you are thoughtful individuals. Let us not resort to name-calling or bringing up 19th century discredited social darwinism. Are we able to find points of understanding and connection, or will we be limited to bickering and further division? We are allowing you to continue conversing, so long as both of you mind, the ad-hominem attacks. We are interested in conversation and dialogue in The Langar Hall, NOT debating….Admin Singh
@Manjit Singh, you are completely right. You have to be a human being first before you can even think about being a true representative of Sikhi. Amazingly, when people identify themselves as caste members they seem to forget this is not found in any religious text. The simple reason that the majority of Indians is nowadays from families of lower caste status is the small families from the economic successfull higher caste families. So if people like Gurcharn Nagra think that caste divisions will be in favour of Jatt Sikhs, think again. The future will see an increasing number of families of lower caste status in all religions and a decreasing number of people from families of higher caste status.
Higher caste families can not expect to follow western lifestyle of luxury, small families and comfort and at the same time hold all positions of power within religious affairs.
Common boy. Behave !
Perhaps, that’s not your fault. This is a matter of sanskars ! That’s how you have been braught up. Its fine.
Please dont vitiate the atmosphere with your loud mouthedness !
If you have something constructive. Go ahead. If not better to keep it shut.
Jatts are a race, not a caste…
[Gurcharn and Dostum, it seems both of you are thoughtful individuals. Let us not resort to name-calling or bringing up 19th century discredited social darwinism. Are we able to find points of understanding and connection, or will we be limited to bickering and further division? We are allowing you to continue conversing, so long as both of you mind, the ad-hominem attacks. We are interested in conversation and dialogue in The Langar Hall, NOT debating….Admin Singh]
To Miss Kaur,
Been reading your posts, and you seem to an intelligent,educated,progressive person.
Your comments – “They use Guru Granth Sahib Ji, they choose to follow parts of Bani that is written by a particular person hence making caste divisions etc. The Maryada of Guru Maharaj is affected, most of these cultist places do not keep Maharaj correctly eg performing Praksah at Amritvela and Sukhasan at night. ”
From your knowledge, do you think ALL the banis of 50 or so BHagats is in Guru Granth Sahib Ji, or only selections that the Gurus thought to be relevant ? I believe Not all of Kabirs sayings are in the Guru Granth Sahib. Wont these communities complain to us of the same things that you are complaining about ?
Should we permit others to take the sayings of our Gurus and come up with their own versions ?
I feel overanalysis is a fruitless direction to go into, but that is the path of education and reasoning that you seem to advocate.
@admin
This is Daljit Singh Cheema.
‘Dostum’ is my takhallus which means “my friend”
I like this a lot. This will be used forthwith.
Thanks.
There is no race except human race.
“Manas ki jaat sabhai ekai pehchanbo”
“Ek Pita, Ekas ke hum barik”
This is the spirit of Sikhi. But then, what you people have to do with sikhi ?
There is no point telling you about that.
For someone who grew up in Bombay, all sikhs seemed the same to me, until I came to California, went to a gurdwara because the langar is quite tasty and was reminded that sikhs like not to be referred to as an extension of hindus. So someone please explain this dalit vs non dalit sikhs to the rest of us. What’s the big deal? wasn’t sikhism formed to take the best of hinduism and islam and other religions? Me thinks, all sikhs are an enigma, jovial, progressive at one time and irrational zealots at other times, even after dating a few. Most sikhs I have known are dying to get rid of their turbans and come out. Why doesn’t one of the current religious heads just say all sikhs are equal, no caste based religion is tolerated in sikhism ( or any religion in India). I think scientific research now indicates that caste is not genetic based. But the decree must come from the so called upper caste sikhs and hindus. It is time. On a lighter note we need more of you guys not less to man our armies, more sikh jokes and spread the good looks by inter-mixing, so stop killing one another.
Gurcharn and Dostum, it seems both of you are thoughtful individuals. Let us not resort to name-calling or bringing up 19th century discredited social darwinism. Are we able to find points of understanding and connection, or will we be limited to bickering and further division? We are allowing you to continue conversing, so long as both of you mind, the ad-hominem attacks. We are interested in conversation and dialogue in The Langar Hall, NOT debating….Admin Singh
There's a lot of speculation about what provoked the incident. I heard that there only used to be one Gurdwara that everyone used to go to, then a Ravidasia Gurdwara was opened and took with it much of the congregation. Speaking as a Jatt Sikh, what do you think the committee of the established Gurdwara were thinking? Over the years, Chamaar's have prospered and can stand on their own two feet, and rightly so. What type of life is it when a son or daughter, right from birth are given a status that implies, this is your place, your lot in life, accept it, better had not step over the mark?
Just like many Sikhs feel that they wont get a fair say from Hindus, perhaps Chamaars feel the same relating to Jatts. I think they got a case.
If the Raviadasia devotees touch their Baba's feet in the presence of the Guru Granth Sahib, I feel that is blasphamous. But like many of these non-orthodox organizations they have their own rituals etc. To attempt to ban such gestures such as feet-touching is futile.
Hardline Hindu organizations are always complaining about Christian Missonaries converting low-caste Hindus. Thousands have converted to Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, over the years. In Panjab there is a strong Christian presence and a growing Buddhist one. Do we want a alienate a people that consitute one third of the population of Panjab so much that they can be potentially tempted by ever eager Missonaries?
One of the biggest faults we Sikhs have is that we lack vision and often act on impulse thats why we have been often mulipulated in the past by hostile forces as we are so preditable. We have such poor leadership, a people who lack vision have a bleak future ahead.
We need unity and to follow Guru Nanaks teachings and eracticate this caste nonsense once and for all, theres no place for it in authetic Sikhi.
People who attacked and killed one soul and injured a number of more people,WHO gave them authority,order or inspiration to do so,certainly Not GURU GRANTH SAHIB,SIKH TEACHINGS DO NOT PREACH HATERD OR VIOLENCE.This is thier ignorance that they think they will prove themselves to be better sikhs by committing this action.Instead now they will rot in jail for long time it does'nt work this way in today's world.Why now substancial number of people who left sikhi and joined other sectors probably sikh leaders, sikhism,sikh teachings LACK something.They should win people's heart with love,harmony,respect and inspire them to stay sticked to sikhism not by threatening with swords and guns, try to understand and provide them with what they are missing in sikhi and they try to find outside.
There’s a lot of speculation about what provoked the incident. I heard that there only used to be one Gurdwara that everyone used to go to, then a Ravidasia Gurdwara was opened and took with it much of the congregation. Speaking as a Jatt Sikh, what do you think the committee of the established Gurdwara were thinking? Over the years, Chamaar’s have prospered and can stand on their own two feet, and rightly so. What type of life is it when a son or daughter, right from birth are given a status that implies, this is your place, your lot in life, accept it, better had not step over the mark?
Just like many Sikhs feel that they wont get a fair say from Hindus, perhaps Chamaars feel the same relating to Jatts. I think they got a case.
If the Raviadasia devotees touch their Baba’s feet in the presence of the Guru Granth Sahib, I feel that is blasphamous. But like many of these non-orthodox organizations they have their own rituals etc. To attempt to ban such gestures such as feet-touching is futile.
Hardline Hindu organizations are always complaining about Christian Missonaries converting low-caste Hindus. Thousands have converted to Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, over the years. In Panjab there is a strong Christian presence and a growing Buddhist one. Do we want a alienate a people that consitute one third of the population of Panjab so much that they can be potentially tempted by ever eager Missonaries?
One of the biggest faults we Sikhs have is that we lack vision and often act on impulse thats why we have been often mulipulated in the past by hostile forces as we are so preditable. We have such poor leadership, a people who lack vision have a bleak future ahead.
We need unity and to follow Guru Nanaks teachings and eracticate this caste nonsense once and for all, theres no place for it in authetic Sikhi.
I skimmed through but its insecure and sad if some here are comments defending MURDER.
1. CASTE is not genetic. Science has proved that. sorry mr Jatt. Theres not wrong in being a Jatt, but to use caste to gain an advantage or as a criteria for marriage while claiming to being a gursikh is hypocrisy.
2. SIKHI is without caste PERIOD.
3. I really dont care if any these dera guys or [insert your cult of choice] make up there own crazy rituals. They will pay in the court of the Creator when the time comes.
4. Just as we have seen people who are put on the earth to lead the people to the right path, do you not think there are those are also put on this earth to simply lead people astray?
Sikhi leadership today, mostly Jatts, is not representative of all sikhs and probably out of touch with reality. I don't believe for a second that all Jatts are the same. This is true of any race/caste. Each race/caste has some enlightened ones, some misguided ones and rest are the majority comprised of ordinary people with ordinary intellects. I too belong to that category with ordinary intellect. I don't think orders from SGPC, Akaal Takht, current sikh leadership are in my best interest. Today Sikhism is 180 degrees away from where it was when 10 enlightened ones were around. Sikhism today sanctioned by sikh leadership and establishment is nothing more than "Jattism". I don't wish to ask why? Corruption in religion is nothing new and inevitable. It's not the last time either. Killing of an individual just becase he has a following and does things little differently is not justifiable. Our Gurus never preached hatred even when they were tortured and killed. Their message was that of forgiveness and compassion. Sikhs at that time also were smart enough not to resort to violence. I don't understand this "disrespect" to Guru Granth Sahib concept discussed above? Sikhs today are more concerned with symbols and protocols of Sikhism than the actual teachings present in "The Book." We get violent when we see someone wearing a Kalgi while preaching. When did Guru Gobind Singh ban use of Kalgi by anyone else? Why would a symbol even matter? Today Sikhism is "Jattism" and someday it will be "Chamaarism" no disresct to anybody and then some other "ism" some other day. It's sad to see where we Sikhs are today. I don't think today's Sikh establishment would accept a re-incarnated Guru Gobind Singh, should he ever chose to do so. Whether we like it or not, Sikhism is a derivative of Hinduism and Sufism. Each religion evolves with time and new branches are formed. Sikhism is bound to go down that road. People become dis-enchanted for their own reasons and start new religions. No religion can stay static forever. This is what happened with Guru Nanak. Hinduism at the time, no offense to Hindus, did not suit Guru Nanak's taste. Lucky for us, the system allowed a new religion to come into existense. We need to do the same. Joint families break, birds leave parents house after maturing, new organization and countries are formed because that's the way it goes. There is nothing wrong with many versions of Sikhism. Focus on what we have in common than our differences. Guru Nanak said "Na Koi Hindu, Na Koi Mussulmaan." Life is too short for love, where do people find time to hate?
People who attacked and killed one soul and injured a number of more people,WHO gave them authority,order or inspiration to do so,certainly Not GURU GRANTH SAHIB,SIKH TEACHINGS DO NOT PREACH HATERD OR VIOLENCE.This is thier ignorance that they think they will prove themselves to be better sikhs by committing this action.Instead now they will rot in jail for long time it does’nt work this way in today’s world.Why now substancial number of people who left sikhi and joined other sectors probably sikh leaders, sikhism,sikh teachings LACK something.They should win people’s heart with love,harmony,respect and inspire them to stay sticked to sikhism not by threatening with swords and guns, try to understand and provide them with what they are missing in sikhi and they try to find outside.
Why are you trying to pin the blame on Hindus. Sikhism teaches equality and was formed to get rid of the caste system. Whose fault is it that jatt sikhs continue to discriminate towards lower caste sikhs? – SIKHS. Whos fault is it that the teachings of the gurus about not believing in castes and differences between people are not being followed – SIKHS.
STOP BLAMING HINDUS, if we want to have a caste system, let us. We are not sikh and we dont have to succumb to not believing in the caste system. Our religion is the oldest in the world, ever stop to think why? Obviously there is something about it that kept alive so long. Obviously there is some truth in it for it to have survived almost 6000 years.
Bottomline: If you feel you are a sikh, then dont blame the caste system or Hinduism for it. Instead, dont follow the caste system, accept chamaars as your own, treat them with equality, so that they dont go off and make join cults or deras because they feel discriminated. Be a real sikh!
Sikhism isn't a fusion of Hinduism and Sufism. When Guru Nanak Ji dissapeared for days and received enlightenment, what was revealed to him formed the basis of the Japji Sahib, the fundamental Sikh text. Without the importance of this event is similar to saying that Mohammed never met the angel Gabrial in a cave, or Moses never received the ten commandments direct from Jehovah or Buddha never sat under the Bodhi tree and became enlightened. Truth is universal so of course there is concepts and beliefs shared amongst faiths, dosent mean one was taken by another!
I live in Canada,a gurduara goer and dedicated sikh…if we go back in sikh history in canada sikhs have both kind of images in canadian govt.records ONE is,sikhs are hard working,progressive,intelligent and helping community and at the same time,they are short tempered,religiously fanatic,drug dealers, NOW JUST GO BACK about 100 yrs.in canada,SHOOTING IN gurduara in GURU GARANTH SAHIB'S presence,killers were sikhs,victims were sikhs and since then TILL NOW sikh are fighting in gurduaras,pulling each other,s beards,dropping their turbans,stabbing and shooting each other.AND SAME THING is happening in 21 century.What sikhs are giving to their canadian born children ??? IN OVER 100 YEARS SIKHS HAVEN'T LEARN ANY THING ???
@simran
Sikhism is a fusion of both Hinduism and Islam, it was influenced by both. Try to hide away from the truth all you want, everyone knows it. No one doubts Guru Nanak didnt have his revelation at the river, but think again, what were the two most predominant religions at the time…Hinduism and Islam. What was Guru Nanak? He was a Hindu. Hinduism influenced Sikhism along with Islam, and thats that.
Sikhism derives and presents in a new way a lot of ideas borrowed from Hinduism and Sufism. There's nothing wrong with it. Our attitude towards Hinduism and Sufism needs to change. We also need to give up this superiority complex about Sikhism in that it has nothing to do with Hinduism and Sufism. There's no need to elaborate solidarity and brotherhood among Hindus, Sikhs, and Muslims preached by Gurus. Texts are filled with examples. This notion that we're better than Muslims and especially Hindus is one major cause of the problem. I don't think we should condemn other people's spiritual practices. If someone wants to touch someone else's feet, more power to them. We don't have to police each and every Dera to make sure protocols are adhered to? We need to let go of this judgemental attitude towards others. "Kabira Teri Jhompdi Gal Katiyan Ke Pass. Jo Karange So Bharange, Tu Kyun Bhayo Udaas." Judge others and we shall be judged!
I skimmed through but its insecure and sad if some here are comments defending MURDER.
1. CASTE is not genetic. Science has proved that. sorry mr Jatt. Theres not wrong in being a Jatt, but to use caste to gain an advantage or as a criteria for marriage while claiming to being a gursikh is hypocrisy.
2. SIKHI is without caste PERIOD.
3. I really dont care if any these dera guys or [insert your cult of choice] make up there own crazy rituals. They will pay in the court of the Creator when the time comes.
4. Just as we have seen people who are put on the earth to lead the people to the right path, do you not think there are those are also put on this earth to simply lead people astray?
Sikhi leadership today, mostly Jatts, is not representative of all sikhs and probably out of touch with reality. I don’t believe for a second that all Jatts are the same. This is true of any race/caste. Each race/caste has some enlightened ones, some misguided ones and rest are the majority comprised of ordinary people with ordinary intellects. I too belong to that category with ordinary intellect. I don’t think orders from SGPC, Akaal Takht, current sikh leadership are in my best interest. Today Sikhism is 180 degrees away from where it was when 10 enlightened ones were around. Sikhism today sanctioned by sikh leadership and establishment is nothing more than “Jattism”. I don’t wish to ask why? Corruption in religion is nothing new and inevitable. It’s not the last time either. Killing of an individual just becase he has a following and does things little differently is not justifiable. Our Gurus never preached hatred even when they were tortured and killed. Their message was that of forgiveness and compassion. Sikhs at that time also were smart enough not to resort to violence. I don’t understand this “disrespect” to Guru Granth Sahib concept discussed above? Sikhs today are more concerned with symbols and protocols of Sikhism than the actual teachings present in “The Book.” We get violent when we see someone wearing a Kalgi while preaching. When did Guru Gobind Singh ban use of Kalgi by anyone else? Why would a symbol even matter? Today Sikhism is “Jattism” and someday it will be “Chamaarism” no disresct to anybody and then some other “ism” some other day. It’s sad to see where we Sikhs are today. I don’t think today’s Sikh establishment would accept a re-incarnated Guru Gobind Singh, should he ever chose to do so. Whether we like it or not, Sikhism is a derivative of Hinduism and Sufism. Each religion evolves with time and new branches are formed. Sikhism is bound to go down that road. People become dis-enchanted for their own reasons and start new religions. No religion can stay static forever. This is what happened with Guru Nanak. Hinduism at the time, no offense to Hindus, did not suit Guru Nanak’s taste. Lucky for us, the system allowed a new religion to come into existense. We need to do the same. Joint families break, birds leave parents house after maturing, new organization and countries are formed because that’s the way it goes. There is nothing wrong with many versions of Sikhism. Focus on what we have in common than our differences. Guru Nanak said “Na Koi Hindu, Na Koi Mussulmaan.” Life is too short for love, where do people find time to hate?
Why are you trying to pin the blame on Hindus. Sikhism teaches equality and was formed to get rid of the caste system. Whose fault is it that jatt sikhs continue to discriminate towards lower caste sikhs? – SIKHS. Whos fault is it that the teachings of the gurus about not believing in castes and differences between people are not being followed – SIKHS.
STOP BLAMING HINDUS, if we want to have a caste system, let us. We are not sikh and we dont have to succumb to not believing in the caste system. Our religion is the oldest in the world, ever stop to think why? Obviously there is something about it that kept alive so long. Obviously there is some truth in it for it to have survived almost 6000 years.
Bottomline: If you feel you are a sikh, then dont blame the caste system or Hinduism for it. Instead, dont follow the caste system, accept chamaars as your own, treat them with equality, so that they dont go off and make join cults or deras because they feel discriminated. Be a real sikh!
Sikhism isn’t a fusion of Hinduism and Sufism. When Guru Nanak Ji dissapeared for days and received enlightenment, what was revealed to him formed the basis of the Japji Sahib, the fundamental Sikh text. Without the importance of this event is similar to saying that Mohammed never met the angel Gabrial in a cave, or Moses never received the ten commandments direct from Jehovah or Buddha never sat under the Bodhi tree and became enlightened. Truth is universal so of course there is concepts and beliefs shared amongst faiths, dosent mean one was taken by another!
I live in Canada,a gurduara goer and dedicated sikh…if we go back in sikh history in canada sikhs have both kind of images in canadian govt.records ONE is,sikhs are hard working,progressive,intelligent and helping community and at the same time,they are short tempered,religiously fanatic,drug dealers, NOW JUST GO BACK about 100 yrs.in canada,SHOOTING IN gurduara in GURU GARANTH SAHIB’S presence,killers were sikhs,victims were sikhs and since then TILL NOW sikh are fighting in gurduaras,pulling each other,s beards,dropping their turbans,stabbing and shooting each other.AND SAME THING is happening in 21 century.What sikhs are giving to their canadian born children ??? IN OVER 100 YEARS SIKHS HAVEN’T LEARN ANY THING ???
@simran
Sikhism is a fusion of both Hinduism and Islam, it was influenced by both. Try to hide away from the truth all you want, everyone knows it. No one doubts Guru Nanak didnt have his revelation at the river, but think again, what were the two most predominant religions at the time…Hinduism and Islam. What was Guru Nanak? He was a Hindu. Hinduism influenced Sikhism along with Islam, and thats that.
Sikhs (and sorry to say, mostly jatt sikhs) arent the only ones that feel their religion is superior to Hinduism and Islam. I know for a fact many Hindus think their religion is superior to both Islam and Sikhism and many Muslims think their own religion is superior to the two others. As long as our India is going to be a place of "religious tolerance" and be composed of all three religions, we're going to have to set aside our differences and co-operate, or else every so often a 1984 attack will occur.
The main problem is that all 3 of these religions are so similar and OPENLY challenge the other 2 religions with respect to views of God(s), rituals, etc.
I say, let those who want to pray different, be allowed to. If the dalits think that the way they can achieve God is through sants and babas, let them. Im sure many jatt sikhs think this is disrespect to their religion as it is being molded and shaped to represent something different, but in the end, you're going to have to allow it.
For example, look at Christianity. It is a molded version of Judaism, and what could the Romans or Jews do to stop their religion from being shaped and changed – NOTHING. Instead, the religion gained support since it was being banned and discriminated against. The same is going to happen with sikhism, it WILL change to suit the needs of dalits. This movement will gain even more support now since it has been brought into the limelight. Let it happen, continue to believe in what YOU think is religion. Besides, in the end, the one that will decide what is right or wrong is God himself.
Sikhism derives and presents in a new way a lot of ideas borrowed from Hinduism and Sufism. There’s nothing wrong with it. Our attitude towards Hinduism and Sufism needs to change. We also need to give up this superiority complex about Sikhism in that it has nothing to do with Hinduism and Sufism. There’s no need to elaborate solidarity and brotherhood among Hindus, Sikhs, and Muslims preached by Gurus. Texts are filled with examples. This notion that we’re better than Muslims and especially Hindus is one major cause of the problem. I don’t think we should condemn other people’s spiritual practices. If someone wants to touch someone else’s feet, more power to them. We don’t have to police each and every Dera to make sure protocols are adhered to? We need to let go of this judgemental attitude towards others. “Kabira Teri Jhompdi Gal Katiyan Ke Pass. Jo Karange So Bharange, Tu Kyun Bhayo Udaas.” Judge others and we shall be judged!
why dont people understand Guru Ravidass Ji believed in god, the same as we do. Sant ramanad ji and sant naranjan dass ji teached us about guru ravidass ji bani and u dont realize how much they done for our community why dont u read about it and u will see, how many schools, and eye hospitals, hospitals and temples they opened for the poor people, if they wanted money they wouldnt done all this. Guru Ravidass ji wasnt seen as an equal because of his caste but with his bravery he started praying to god and the same with us 2day with guru Ravidass bani. GURU means teacher and guru Ravidass ji is ours, do u know what baghat means? it means gods slave in hindi, Guru ravidass ji never thought they where higher than anyone else they where equal to everyone and saw everyone as equal, its all man made. we are Ravidassia, we respect the guru granth sahib and the gurus. answer me one thing dont sikh have sants ofcourse they do read it up and u will see. another thing dont people touch there elders to get blessing of them, its the same thing with us, its getting blessing from them and look in the guru granth shaib bani about sants and how the gurus repected them. dont u think when the gurus where alive people didnt touch there feet to get blessings ofcourse they did. How guru ravidass wasnt accepted to be equal than,its the same thats whats happening 2day, we r not seen as equal and r Ravidassia that follow guru ravidass ji bani. Sant Ramanad ji and Sant Naranjan ji where never againist anyone, they told us to repect everyone and it was ur own choice to follow the path u want to.They lived a simple life in the dera ive seen it myself. they helped the poor by building schools, hospital, eye hositals, temples for the community not for themselves, all we want is our community to be equal and thats it and thats our right, everyone has there own religon path, at the end of the day the path at the end will be the same for everyone. What happend to Sant Ramanad is very upsetting for our community thats why the roits r happening, they are not hurting anyone, they are just anger to what happend,anyone would react the same or even worsee if it happend to a family member. so some people need to think before they say any bad things bout sant Ramanand ji and Naranjan dassji because they dont know anything about them, get the knowledge and facts before u write anything.
Sant Ramanad ji and Sant Naranjan ji where never againist anyone, they told us to "respect" everyone and it was ur own choice to follow the path u want to. sorry, before i spelt respect wrong.
[Please use only one name on this blog, switching names again will get you banned –Admin]
Sikhs (and sorry to say, mostly jatt sikhs) arent the only ones that feel their religion is superior to Hinduism and Islam. I know for a fact many Hindus think their religion is superior to both Islam and Sikhism and many Muslims think their own religion is superior to the two others. As long as our India is going to be a place of “religious tolerance” and be composed of all three religions, we’re going to have to set aside our differences and co-operate, or else every so often a 1984 attack will occur.
The main problem is that all 3 of these religions are so similar and OPENLY challenge the other 2 religions with respect to views of God(s), rituals, etc.
I say, let those who want to pray different, be allowed to. If the dalits think that the way they can achieve God is through sants and babas, let them. Im sure many jatt sikhs think this is disrespect to their religion as it is being molded and shaped to represent something different, but in the end, you’re going to have to allow it.
For example, look at Christianity. It is a molded version of Judaism, and what could the Romans or Jews do to stop their religion from being shaped and changed – NOTHING. Instead, the religion gained support since it was being banned and discriminated against. The same is going to happen with sikhism, it WILL change to suit the needs of dalits. This movement will gain even more support now since it has been brought into the limelight. Let it happen, continue to believe in what YOU think is religion. Besides, in the end, the one that will decide what is right or wrong is God himself.
why dont people understand Guru Ravidass Ji believed in god, the same as we do. Sant ramanad ji and sant naranjan dass ji teached us about guru ravidass ji bani and u dont realize how much they done for our community why dont u read about it and u will see, how many schools, and eye hospitals, hospitals and temples they opened for the poor people, if they wanted money they wouldnt done all this. Guru Ravidass ji wasnt seen as an equal because of his caste but with his bravery he started praying to god and the same with us 2day with guru Ravidass bani. GURU means teacher and guru Ravidass ji is ours, do u know what baghat means? it means gods slave in hindi, Guru ravidass ji never thought they where higher than anyone else they where equal to everyone and saw everyone as equal, its all man made. we are Ravidassia, we respect the guru granth sahib and the gurus. answer me one thing dont sikh have sants ofcourse they do read it up and u will see. another thing dont people touch there elders to get blessing of them, its the same thing with us, its getting blessing from them and look in the guru granth shaib bani about sants and how the gurus repected them. dont u think when the gurus where alive people didnt touch there feet to get blessings ofcourse they did. How guru ravidass wasnt accepted to be equal than,its the same thats whats happening 2day, we r not seen as equal and r Ravidassia that follow guru ravidass ji bani. Sant Ramanad ji and Sant Naranjan ji where never againist anyone, they told us to repect everyone and it was ur own choice to follow the path u want to.They lived a simple life in the dera ive seen it myself. they helped the poor by building schools, hospital, eye hositals, temples for the community not for themselves, all we want is our community to be equal and thats it and thats our right, everyone has there own religon path, at the end of the day the path at the end will be the same for everyone. What happend to Sant Ramanad is very upsetting for our community thats why the roits r happening, they are not hurting anyone, they are just anger to what happend,anyone would react the same or even worsee if it happend to a family member. so some people need to think before they say any bad things bout sant Ramanand ji and Naranjan dassji because they dont know anything about them, get the knowledge and facts before u write anything.
Sant Ramanad ji and Sant Naranjan ji where never againist anyone, they told us to “respect” everyone and it was ur own choice to follow the path u want to. sorry, before i spelt respect wrong.
[Please use only one name on this blog, switching names again will get you banned –Admin]
The problem with the sikhs is that they are very insecure. Anything happens in any place in the world and they are threatened! Grow up plz.They have such a fragile ego that keeps on getting damaged every now and then, and still they claim to be in "Chardi Kala". Chardi kala means "positive attitude". Show me any Sikh with that. The are full of negativity.
There is nothing wrong in deh-dhari gurus for non-sikhs. Infact, they are needed for non-sikhs. Who told you to go to them ?
Sikhs need not to panic. They should mind their own business rather than jumping up and down in excitement.
A terrorist has no religion. He is a damned soul. After dying like dogs on earth, he is condemed to suffer for eternity in the pits of kumbhi-nark. When did Waheguru delegate His powers to these terrorists to take lives ? And plz dont confuse sikh martyres with terrorists.Give them a clear message that they have no place in Sikh religion.
GOD , GUNS and GUTS , all meant for JATTS.
The problem with the sikhs is that they are very insecure. Anything happens in any place in the world and they are threatened! Grow up plz.They have such a fragile ego that keeps on getting damaged every now and then, and still they claim to be in “Chardi Kala”. Chardi kala means “positive attitude”. Show me any Sikh with that. The are full of negativity.
There is nothing wrong in deh-dhari gurus for non-sikhs. Infact, they are needed for non-sikhs. Who told you to go to them ?
Sikhs need not to panic. They should mind their own business rather than jumping up and down in excitement.
A terrorist has no religion. He is a damned soul. After dying like dogs on earth, he is condemed to suffer for eternity in the pits of kumbhi-nark. When did Waheguru delegate His powers to these terrorists to take lives ? And plz dont confuse sikh martyres with terrorists.Give them a clear message that they have no place in Sikh religion.
Lol if you think that Sikhi is a fusion of Hinduism and Islam that's your opinion, vichar baazi. I'm telling you different and that's my opinion. What an absurb notion that claims Guru Nanak collected ideas here and there, like an author and began a new faith lol Guru Ji from birth was very spiritual, so naturally he interacted with many spiritual people – he felt that both Islam and Hinduism, were not doing anything for the people that their rituals were often merely symbolic and meaningless, often exploiting the masses, just like Buddha who was also disillusined by Hinduism, Guru Ji kept on striving for enlightenment and it occured on the auspicious morning he went to do ishnaan. This fusion theory is on it's last legs, come on my friend I prey for you to come out of denial.
Mr mauji jatts !
Where did you show that Guts?
Outside your huts (read Punjab)?
You never showed it in America
or Europ…
Did you fear for your butts ?
Mindless violence is nothing..
but nutts….
We desperately need enlightened Sikhs
not anpadh jatts
Without any iffs and buts..
GOD , GUNS and GUTS , all meant for JATTS.
There has been a dumbing down of
Intellect within the Sikh masses. We face a lot of challenges, but one of our greatest strengths is that we know that know one shall look out for us, other than our own – hence our strong identity and self-reliance. We had to fight for everything we have. Hindusim and Islam have done us no favours but often been a hindrance to our aspirations. If we trusted them, Sikhi would have gone done the same route as Buddhism went in it's own country of origin, the only difference is that we weilded the Sword to fend of those with evil designs on us.
Lol if you think that Sikhi is a fusion of Hinduism and Islam that’s your opinion, vichar baazi. I’m telling you different and that’s my opinion. What an absurb notion that claims Guru Nanak collected ideas here and there, like an author and began a new faith lol Guru Ji from birth was very spiritual, so naturally he interacted with many spiritual people – he felt that both Islam and Hinduism, were not doing anything for the people that their rituals were often merely symbolic and meaningless, often exploiting the masses, just like Buddha who was also disillusined by Hinduism, Guru Ji kept on striving for enlightenment and it occured on the auspicious morning he went to do ishnaan. This fusion theory is on it’s last legs, come on my friend I prey for you to come out of denial.
Mr mauji jatts !
Where did you show that Guts?
Outside your huts (read Punjab)?
You never showed it in America
or Europ…
Did you fear for your butts ?
Mindless violence is nothing..
but nutts….
We desperately need enlightened Sikhs
not anpadh jatts
Without any iffs and buts..
There has been a dumbing down of
Intellect within the Sikh masses. We face a lot of challenges, but one of our greatest strengths is that we know that know one shall look out for us, other than our own – hence our strong identity and self-reliance. We had to fight for everything we have. Hindusim and Islam have done us no favours but often been a hindrance to our aspirations. If we trusted them, Sikhi would have gone done the same route as Buddhism went in it’s own country of origin, the only difference is that we weilded the Sword to fend of those with evil designs on us.
[your jatt pride speech is tiring. -Admin]
[your jatt pride speech is tiring. -Admin]
Somewhat decent debate going on here. Instead of wasting time and saying bad things blabbering nonsense about other religions, would not get Sikhi too far or I should say it won't take us anywhere. So let's introspect ourselves and try to find out what went wrong with us and why we are in this mess. Some question are really staring at our faces today.
1. Why has so many Deras come up in Punjab alone?
2. Why these Deras have following among lower strata of Sikh people?
3. What is SGPC doing in eradicating the caste divisions among Sikhs which have come in early 20th century?
Guru Granth sahib tells us "Hamri jaat paat sab gur-satgur hum behjey sir satgur ko" then why we Sikhs have failed to follow our Guru Sahib?
Instead of blaming others let's start a campaign how to eradicate the caste system ,let's us pledge that we the present generation of Sikhs will put the things back on track and bring the glory back to the Khalsa.
Somewhat decent debate going on here. Instead of wasting time and saying bad things blabbering nonsense about other religions, would not get Sikhi too far or I should say it won’t take us anywhere. So let’s introspect ourselves and try to find out what went wrong with us and why we are in this mess. Some question are really staring at our faces today.
1. Why has so many Deras come up in Punjab alone?
2. Why these Deras have following among lower strata of Sikh people?
3. What is SGPC doing in eradicating the caste divisions among Sikhs which have come in early 20th century?
Guru Granth sahib tells us “Hamri jaat paat sab gur-satgur hum behjey sir satgur ko” then why we Sikhs have failed to follow our Guru Sahib?
Instead of blaming others let’s start a campaign how to eradicate the caste system ,let’s us pledge that we the present generation of Sikhs will put the things back on track and bring the glory back to the Khalsa.