Latest Update on Sikhs and Dera SachKhand from the Punjab
My last post was about what we knew at that time. Since then, there are new updates.
After the attack in the Vienna temple (actually a dera of the Sach Khand group), there are news confirmations that Sant Rama Nand has passed away from his injuries, while the Dera head Niranjan Das is in stable condition.
There are also reports of violence in Punjab. IBN live reports the death of 2 people in the Doaba region and also one should note that it seems that the army has been called in to parts of Punjab.
One person was killed and four others were injured as Army jawans opened fire in Lambra village, 30 kms from Jalandhar. Another person was killed after the police opened fire on protesters at Jalandhar Cantonment railway station. [link]
In some ways I believe that this is a tragedy of the 80s and 90s.
Although caste consciousness has long plagued the community, despite the clarion call from our Gurus, those that ideologically joined the movement forged a true brotherhood (Singhs) and sisterhood (Kaurs) (for anecdotes, see Fighting for Faith and Nation) that went beyond caste.
However, there were still those vestiges in rural Sikh society that downplayed the heroic role of the Sikh Dalits (or as Guru Gobind Singh once said, Rangretas). The Indian State (represented by KPS Gill) completely tried to negate the role of the wider Sikh community and label the movement as only an intra-Jat Sikh affair. The reason for this is completely understandable on the side of the Indian State. The revolutionary potential of Sikh Dalits could shake all of South Asia. The Gurus understood this and thus channeled the rebellious spirit of the downtrodden into a Gurmat-based revolution. What is truly a travesty is that the Indian State’s story of downplaying the contributions of other groups within the Sikh Qaum has largely been bought by the Sikhs themselves. Many Sikhs even view the movement as some Jat movement, thus losing its revolutionary nature and becoming nothing more than a peasant uprising.
Since the 1990s, various Deras have been successful at dividing the Sikhs amongst castes. If Dera Sach Khand is successful, the Sikhs should not point the finger at none other than themselves. True, that others may play roles and others may have interests, but if I can borrow a term from another religious group – the “original sin” lies with us. Giani Dit Singh was a shining beacon of the Singh Sabha movement. The Singh Sabha’s success and in some way that of the Sikh Revolution, in general, lied in its ability to end caste-consciousness and forge a community of true brothers and sisters. In so many ways the Singh Sabha is attacked today by many different sides, but they are blind to its truly revolutionary nature. If Sikhs take up the call of equality again, then as a community we have a future. I strongly urge for Sikhs to join their brothers and sisters at Bhagat Ravi Das Sabhas, other “caste Gurdwaras”, etc. and begin the conversations for us all to begin a new revolutionary movement in Sikhi. If this conversation can begin in the face of this tragedy, then maybe as a Qaum we can all be better.
132 Responses to “Latest Update on Sikhs and Dera SachKhand from the Punjab”
WJKK
WJKF
This is indeed a very unfortunate incident and should be condemned by everybody.
SGPC and Akal Takhat should be quick to respond on this and should condemn it whole-heartedly.
This rift between the Sikhs and Ravidasias is uncalled for and unfortunate. We sikhs bow to Sri Ravidas ji daily when we bow in front on Guru Granth Sahib. We have special heart-felt respect for each other.
This incident is a handy work of the people who hate the social setup and harmony of Punjab and want to dismantle the fabric of trust and respect woven by Gurus.
The so-called 'Upper Caste' people should at once shed their prejudices against so-called 'lower caste' and they should be welcomed into the fold of Khalsa with open arms.
SGPC should work hard to eradicate this rift between so-called 'Castes' and should work towards breaking these walls of hatred as envisioned by our great Gurus.
The voilence directed against innocent people should be aborted at once and the thinkful solution should be sorted.
Please don't let Punjab to be dragged into dark-ages once again.
Wake up Punjabis !!! Wake up Khalsa Ji !!!
WJKK
WJKF
WJKK
WJKF
This is indeed a very unfortunate incident and should be condemned by everybody.
SGPC and Akal Takhat should be quick to respond on this and should condemn it whole-heartedly.
This rift between the Sikhs and Ravidasias is uncalled for and unfortunate. We sikhs bow to Sri Ravidas ji daily when we bow in front on Guru Granth Sahib. We have special heart-felt respect for each other.
This incident is a handy work of the people who hate the social setup and harmony of Punjab and want to dismantle the fabric of trust and respect woven by Gurus.
The so-called ‘Upper Caste’ people should at once shed their prejudices against so-called ‘lower caste’ and they should be welcomed into the fold of Khalsa with open arms.
SGPC should work hard to eradicate this rift between so-called ‘Castes’ and should work towards breaking these walls of hatred as envisioned by our great Gurus.
The voilence directed against innocent people should be aborted at once and the thinkful solution should be sorted.
Please don’t let Punjab to be dragged into dark-ages once again.
Wake up Punjabis !!! Wake up Khalsa Ji !!!
WJKK
WJKF
WJKK
WJKF
Jatinder Pal Singhji.. before condemning the attacks you need to know what was the cause for the attack.. If the so called Gurus have attacke dSikh integrity and defamed The GURU GRANTH SAHEBJI or meant disrespect in any way.. I PRAISE THE ATTACK AND CONGRATULATE THE SIKHS WORLDWIDE… The end of the Dehdharis Guru who have meant dsrepsect to Guru Granthg Sahebji has started…. As its rightly said" When all other means fail righteousness it is to draw the sword" We are a loser if we do nitnem everyday but can't fight against any disrespect to Guru Granth Sahebji..
Raj Karega Khalsa… Aakhi (Hungry and poor) Rahe na Koi..
[deleted by admin- no posts in all caps are allowed, singh]
WJKK
WJKF
Jatinder Pal Singhji.. before condemning the attacks you need to know what was the cause for the attack.. If the so called Gurus have attacke dSikh integrity and defamed The GURU GRANTH SAHEBJI or meant disrespect in any way.. I PRAISE THE ATTACK AND CONGRATULATE THE SIKHS WORLDWIDE… The end of the Dehdharis Guru who have meant dsrepsect to Guru Granthg Sahebji has started…. As its rightly said” When all other means fail righteousness it is to draw the sword” We are a loser if we do nitnem everyday but can’t fight against any disrespect to Guru Granth Sahebji..
Raj Karega Khalsa… Aakhi (Hungry and poor) Rahe na Koi..
[deleted by admin- no posts in all caps are allowed, singh]
This is indeed funniest thing on part of the Sikh organisations that on one hand they treat some people (read dalits ) as if they were born of a lesser God… and on the other hand they want them to believe what they believe in ! How funny ! Dalits will go where they are treated at par with others. Where they are loved (and certainly not despised ). Read the history. Nobody has been able to enslave other beings for long.The day of reckoning comes one day, sooner or later. The great day of Resurrection
Decorative words like “insidious” “evangelicals” have nothing to do with the dalit movement. Since they are an outcastes of Sikhism, they moved away. Sikhism is now a Jattism.The Great Great Sikh religion that was for the downtrodden dalits no longer exists. It is as simple as that.
Before finding fault with other, first set your own house in order.
PS @ above
You use such abusive language to Guru Ravidass, whose bani is there in Sri Guru Granth Sahib and still you can call yourself a sikh !!!
And it is needless to remind you that No Guru was amritdhari before the Tenth Guru. Guru Ravidass was contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev
Here's the first article in the mainstream press, today's New York Times, that actually refers to the individual killed as the "leader of a Sikh sect" rather than a "Sikh Guru" and looks at the some of the issues behind the violence.
This is indeed funniest thing on part of the Sikh organisations that on one hand they treat some people (read dalits ) as if they were born of a lesser God… and on the other hand they want them to believe what they believe in ! How funny ! Dalits will go where they are treated at par with others. Where they are loved (and certainly not despised ). Read the history. Nobody has been able to enslave other beings for long.The day of reckoning comes one day, sooner or later. The great day of Resurrection
Decorative words like “insidious” “evangelicals” have nothing to do with the dalit movement. Since they are an outcastes of Sikhism, they moved away. Sikhism is now a Jattism.The Great Great Sikh religion that was for the downtrodden dalits no longer exists. It is as simple as that.
Before finding fault with other, first set your own house in order.
PS @ above
You use such abusive language to Guru Ravidass, whose bani is there in Sri Guru Granth Sahib and still you can call yourself a sikh !!!
And it is needless to remind you that No Guru was amritdhari before the Tenth Guru. Guru Ravidass was contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev
Violence in any place of worship is wrong.. especially when young children are present. No matter how wrong the sect leaders were killing them is not right.
Not tring to justify the violence but these Dera's need to realize that they're constant abuse of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is upsetting a lot of Sikhs.
Here’s the first article in the mainstream press, today’s New York Times, that actually refers to the individual killed as the “leader of a Sikh sect” rather than a “Sikh Guru” and looks at the some of the issues behind the violence.
Violence in any place of worship is wrong.. especially when young children are present. No matter how wrong the sect leaders were killing them is not right.
Not tring to justify the violence but these Dera’s need to realize that they’re constant abuse of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji is upsetting a lot of Sikhs.
Bole So Nihal, Sat Sri Akaal. Dera Sacha Sauda Ram Rahim should watch his back
Bole So Nihal, Sat Sri Akaal. Dera Sacha Sauda Ram Rahim should watch his back
The administrator should immediately remove this vile, despicable and profane comments by fanatic idiots like Canadian Jutt.
These are the very people who are inspiration behind the killing of this Dera Baba.
We as a commmunity must grow up and know how to take offense without resorting to violence. I still fail to understand what was so offensive that provked these zealots to start attacking with knives, kirpans, pistols. Given that this dera has been in Punjab for so long and existed with maintstream Sikhs without any recent history of friction between them, the sudden ourbrust of violence is perplexing. Some of the comments are showering praise on the attackers for defending the dignity of Sikh faith. I submit these violent attacks would us nowhere and would tarnish the whole image of Sikhs and their articles of faith, kirpan and turban. Just look how the how the Christianity is sometimes rediculed and lampooned in west and yet we only hear about Christians doing the protest and writting petitions. That is only way forward for living in democratic setup.
Do you think that the Dalits have been deliberately ignored by the sikh leadership who are mainly jatts? because if the dalits were openly welcomed into the sikh community than the predominently jatt leadership would lose their influence because there are way more dalits than jatts. The reason I ask is because caste is unfortunately still prevelant within the commmunity. Here in canada, there are smaller gurdwara’s that specific castes only go to. Do you think that caste politics is an issue?, do you think that people in gurdwara committee’s usually vote for people from their own caste? It is sad that there is so much division
Hey guys. Umm don't know how start this, but like my family is like really really close with one of the dera followers (we aint one of them). They invited us to Akhand Paath,they got their temple on steeles in Toronto,and there was a mona (haircut guy) doing paath (on the Roal), there Jaikara is different (Bole So Nirbay Ravidaas Maharaj Kee Jay), and they weren't going to read Anand Sahib before Aardas, but the Dadhi forced them and did it. I am just telling you guys of some of the differences, I am not supporting the killing of their Baba. Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji told the Singhs to ignore these type of things, in that, Guru Sahib is making them do it and they will punish them of any misdeads; this doesn't mean we should tolerate Beadbi, like how some peopl damage saroops. Me family met saw that baba once, they (the followers) just kept bowing their head to him nothing else…
This whole issue of cults and sects stems from people insecurities. The fact that most not all of these cult followers are un-educated they are unable to find a spiritual path for themselves. They follow these so called baba's and sants to lead the way. These so called sants exploite these people by making them fell part of the panth etc. there is no need as Guru Maharaj is the perfect Guru and guide. The quicker Sikhs understand this the better.
The Bani of Bhai Ravidas Ji cannot be judged or disrespected in any way shape or form.
The administrator should immediately remove this vile, despicable and profane comments by fanatic idiots like Canadian Jutt.
These are the very people who are inspiration behind the killing of this Dera Baba.
We as a commmunity must grow up and know how to take offense without resorting to violence. I still fail to understand what was so offensive that provked these zealots to start attacking with knives, kirpans, pistols. Given that this dera has been in Punjab for so long and existed with maintstream Sikhs without any recent history of friction between them, the sudden ourbrust of violence is perplexing. Some of the comments are showering praise on the attackers for defending the dignity of Sikh faith. I submit these violent attacks would us nowhere and would tarnish the whole image of Sikhs and their articles of faith, kirpan and turban. Just look how the how the Christianity is sometimes rediculed and lampooned in west and yet we only hear about Christians doing the protest and writting petitions. That is only way forward for living in democratic setup.
Do you think that the Dalits have been deliberately ignored by the sikh leadership who are mainly jatts? because if the dalits were openly welcomed into the sikh community than the predominently jatt leadership would lose their influence because there are way more dalits than jatts. The reason I ask is because caste is unfortunately still prevelant within the commmunity. Here in canada, there are smaller gurdwara’s that specific castes only go to. Do you think that caste politics is an issue?, do you think that people in gurdwara committee’s usually vote for people from their own caste? It is sad that there is so much division
Hey guys. Umm don’t know how start this, but like my family is like really really close with one of the dera followers (we aint one of them). They invited us to Akhand Paath,they got their temple on steeles in Toronto,and there was a mona (haircut guy) doing paath (on the Roal), there Jaikara is different (Bole So Nirbay Ravidaas Maharaj Kee Jay), and they weren’t going to read Anand Sahib before Aardas, but the Dadhi forced them and did it. I am just telling you guys of some of the differences, I am not supporting the killing of their Baba. Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji told the Singhs to ignore these type of things, in that, Guru Sahib is making them do it and they will punish them of any misdeads; this doesn’t mean we should tolerate Beadbi, like how some peopl damage saroops. Me family met saw that baba once, they (the followers) just kept bowing their head to him nothing else…
This whole issue of cults and sects stems from people insecurities. The fact that most not all of these cult followers are un-educated they are unable to find a spiritual path for themselves. They follow these so called baba’s and sants to lead the way. These so called sants exploite these people by making them fell part of the panth etc. there is no need as Guru Maharaj is the perfect Guru and guide. The quicker Sikhs understand this the better.
The Bani of Bhai Ravidas Ji cannot be judged or disrespected in any way shape or form.
A journalist once said: "Hinduism is the boa-constrictor of the Indian jungle." It will usurp any philosophy that challenges the power and stronghold of Bahmanism in India. The way it does this is through insidious means, i.e. by claiming "Sikhism is a form of Hinduism", or under the guise of "Indian nationalism", or by supporting the establishment of anti-panthic deras. All these methods are subtly designed to weaken the Sikh Panth, and blur the distinct ideological differences between hinduism and Sikhi.
While people's interpretation of "secularism" might be a person calling themselves a "buddhist AND hindu", in Sikhism you cannot be BOTH Sikh and hindu. We respect all faiths, however you cannot belong to more than one. Sure we can respect and learn from other philosophies – but a Sikh cannot be a Hindu or a Buddhist at the same time. If the Gurus wanted us to remain Hindus they would not have gifted us the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and provided us a distinct spiritual identity. In addition, our Guru has unequivocally warned us NOT to follow the ways of the Brahmins: "Jab Lag Khalsa Rahe Niara, Tab Lag Tej Dioon Mein Sara Jab Eh Gaye Bipran Ki Reet, Mein Na Karoon In Ki Parteet."
With regard an earlier comment: "Instead Sikhs should work to build one community which accept differences" — THERE IS ONLY ONE COMMUNITY IN SIKHISM DELINEATED BY THE 10TH GURU, AND IT'S CALLED THE KHALSA PANTH, PERIOD. This type of comment is another example of starting a version of the Sikh faith that suits one's own personal world-view. Let us try an understand and live the tenets of Sikhi, before we try and "improve" it.
@ ibadat singh gill,
sure go ahead and blame Hinduism for the faults within the sikh community itself, that just shows that you are a insecure pathetic little cry baby. Despite everything you sikhs say it is obvious that caste differences still excist in the Sikh community so instead of blaming others start fixing your own house. People living in glass houses (like you) should not throw rocks at others.
A journalist once said: “Hinduism is the boa-constrictor of the Indian jungle.” It will usurp any philosophy that challenges the power and stronghold of Bahmanism in India. The way it does this is through insidious means, i.e. by claiming “Sikhism is a form of Hinduism”, or under the guise of “Indian nationalism”, or by supporting the establishment of anti-panthic deras. All these methods are subtly designed to weaken the Sikh Panth, and blur the distinct ideological differences between hinduism and Sikhi.
While people’s interpretation of “secularism” might be a person calling themselves a “buddhist AND hindu”, in Sikhism you cannot be BOTH Sikh and hindu. We respect all faiths, however you cannot belong to more than one. Sure we can respect and learn from other philosophies – but a Sikh cannot be a Hindu or a Buddhist at the same time. If the Gurus wanted us to remain Hindus they would not have gifted us the Guru Granth Sahib Ji, and provided us a distinct spiritual identity. In addition, our Guru has unequivocally warned us NOT to follow the ways of the Brahmins: “Jab Lag Khalsa Rahe Niara, Tab Lag Tej Dioon Mein Sara Jab Eh Gaye Bipran Ki Reet, Mein Na Karoon In Ki Parteet.”
With regard an earlier comment: “Instead Sikhs should work to build one community which accept differences” — THERE IS ONLY ONE COMMUNITY IN SIKHISM DELINEATED BY THE 10TH GURU, AND IT’S CALLED THE KHALSA PANTH, PERIOD. This type of comment is another example of starting a version of the Sikh faith that suits one’s own personal world-view. Let us try an understand and live the tenets of Sikhi, before we try and “improve” it.
[you show you're real class atheist = atheist behen da = jeet singh khalsa. those that have to resort to the dishonesty of sock-puppeting illustrate their bankruptcy in thought….admin singh. you are now banned]
Blaming this incident on Hinduism is preposterous and just allows Sikhs to wallow in conspiracy theories.
The fact is that Sikh society is ridden with hateful caste divisions.
The fact is that some people in the Sikh diaspora are extremists and violent.
I think some people are driven to acts like this partly because of the ATMOSPHERICS created by people who create a siege-mentality and death-cult atmosphere in which differences are settled through murder and blood curdling death threats.
In my personal opinion, the future of the Sikh religion in the diaspora is bleak, especially in the UK. Murderous fanatics exist inside the Sikh community, who seek power and want to assert violence over those they think need to be 'cleansed' from Sikhism. I can see more violence carried out by Sikhs on other Sikhs. It is a horrific scenario I see playing out, but that is what my insight tells me.
@ ibadat singh gill,
sure go ahead and blame Hinduism for the faults within the sikh community itself, that just shows that you are a insecure pathetic little cry baby. Despite everything you sikhs say it is obvious that caste differences still excist in the Sikh community so instead of blaming others start fixing your own house. People living in glass houses (like you) should not throw rocks at others.
[you show you’re real class atheist = atheist behen da = jeet singh khalsa. those that have to resort to the dishonesty of sock-puppeting illustrate their bankruptcy in thought….admin singh. you are now banned]
Blaming this incident on Hinduism is preposterous and just allows Sikhs to wallow in conspiracy theories.
The fact is that Sikh society is ridden with hateful caste divisions.
The fact is that some people in the Sikh diaspora are extremists and violent.
I think some people are driven to acts like this partly because of the ATMOSPHERICS created by people who create a siege-mentality and death-cult atmosphere in which differences are settled through murder and blood curdling death threats.
In my personal opinion, the future of the Sikh religion in the diaspora is bleak, especially in the UK. Murderous fanatics exist inside the Sikh community, who seek power and want to assert violence over those they think need to be ‘cleansed’ from Sikhism. I can see more violence carried out by Sikhs on other Sikhs. It is a horrific scenario I see playing out, but that is what my insight tells me.
[…] Il commento più appropriato a questa desolante situazione ci sembra quello fatto da un giovane blogger sikh: «Credo che questa sia una tragedia degli anni ‘80 e ‘90, quando in Punjab c’era […]
It is very easy to call oneself and pose as a sikh, but very difficult to be a good one. Hypocrisy is older than religion itself. Despite our limitations we need to continue on this journey to be better. Helping the weak, and not harrassing them. Not being self serving, but sacrificing for others is what makes this a Great and Unique Religion.
People admire sikhism and sometimes use it to suit their own needs. Guru Nanaks Langar, and "Tera, Tera Tol" continues…It is easier to be an ungrateful recipient of the Langar and other gifts of sikhism, but diffiult to be a good sikh. This is how its always been. You need a big heart to be a sikh.
The victims and suspect of this terrible crime were of different caste. The motive for the crime was not caste but religious intolerance and differences.The Sikh guru was not killed because he was a certain caste, but the way he practiced his religion
It is very easy to call oneself and pose as a sikh, but very difficult to be a good one. Hypocrisy is older than religion itself. Despite our limitations we need to continue on this journey to be better. Helping the weak, and not harrassing them. Not being self serving, but sacrificing for others is what makes this a Great and Unique Religion.
People admire sikhism and sometimes use it to suit their own needs. Guru Nanaks Langar, and “Tera, Tera Tol” continues…It is easier to be an ungrateful recipient of the Langar and other gifts of sikhism, but diffiult to be a good sikh. This is how its always been. You need a big heart to be a sikh.
The victims and suspect of this terrible crime were of different caste. The motive for the crime was not caste but religious intolerance and differences.The Sikh guru was not killed because he was a certain caste, but the way he practiced his religion
Hey Ms kaur !
How you people reach to the conclusions that people following some cults or deras are illiterates describes the intellectual level you possess. On the contrary, those who blindly follows dogmas are. idiots. All intelligent people like Sardar Bhagat Singh, Lala Hardayal and the likes laughed at you idiots.
If you are literate enough, you must have been well versed with the figures of academic achievements of dalits. The other day, this Chairman of UPSC was showering praise on the dalit students of India. He said that they outscore so called general category in every respect. Their percentage is as high as that of general cetagory if not higher.
There was no difference in merit in academic qualifications during recruitment of teachers. Candidates belonging to SC category possessed same percentage as that of so called general category, in spite of their limited resources. This surely is enough for you to digest.
[Please use only one name on the blog, switching names will get you banned. Admin]
I fail to understand as to why there is a pain in your abdomen if there are deras, cults or anything like that. Mind your own business rather than poking your nose here and there. How the maryada of Guru Granth Sahib is offended by a deh-dhari guru ? They never say anything against the Holy book. Infact, as fara as I know, they hold Guru Granth Sahib in a very high esteem.Before mindlessly attacking people, one should know that bani was recited by the deh-dhari gurus at that point of time. It did not came from heaven in the "printed form". Gurus took human birth to bless people with banis.
Moreover, no deh-dhari guru of any dera is connected with Sikhism. Then why do you have pain is difficult to understand.They have their own system in place. Infact, this is a matter of jealous. This is hard to digest for many.
Moreover,everybody has a free will and fundamental right to go where ever he/she likes. Who are you to force yourself on others?
Before advising others set your own house in order first.
[Last warning, if you switch names again you will be banned. Admin]
@ Admin.
you are very quick to respond. Verifying the credentials is a good practice. Thanks.
True goal for a human being is to reach to the God by becoming a good human first (a central teaching of all religions).
We admire all saints, gurus and all other bold ones who could dare to ask questions about their own beliefs and then recommended improvements from time to time.
Whatever we see today is compete insanity towards religions and their teachings. Come on guys, learn how to behave like gentlemen first.
Hey Ms kaur !
How you people reach to the conclusions that people following some cults or deras are illiterates describes the intellectual level you possess. On the contrary, those who blindly follows dogmas are. idiots. All intelligent people like Sardar Bhagat Singh, Lala Hardayal and the likes laughed at you idiots.
If you are literate enough, you must have been well versed with the figures of academic achievements of dalits. The other day, this Chairman of UPSC was showering praise on the dalit students of India. He said that they outscore so called general category in every respect. Their percentage is as high as that of general cetagory if not higher.
There was no difference in merit in academic qualifications during recruitment of teachers. Candidates belonging to SC category possessed same percentage as that of so called general category, in spite of their limited resources. This surely is enough for you to digest.
[Please use only one name on the blog, switching names will get you banned. Admin]
For those asking whats the big deal about Deras, they are big a deal. Many of them started after 1984, the particular Dera in the past giving alot of trouble was Dera Sucha Sauda, the leader Ram Raheem Insaan(Insane).
He is not only wanted by Sikhs, but by the CBI and a judge has issued an order for his arrest, and also for at least several cases of murder, and with 25 rapes of women attending the dera he operates. His bodyguard shot and murdered a Sikh. Also murders attributed to him are those of a newspaper reporter, the driver, the treasurer of his organization (who was tortured), and another member of his dera who was working with the previous leader of the dera.
No one has arrested him, siting back log of cases for the judiciary.
I fail to understand as to why there is a pain in your abdomen if there are deras, cults or anything like that. Mind your own business rather than poking your nose here and there. How the maryada of Guru Granth Sahib is offended by a deh-dhari guru ? They never say anything against the Holy book. Infact, as fara as I know, they hold Guru Granth Sahib in a very high esteem.Before mindlessly attacking people, one should know that bani was recited by the deh-dhari gurus at that point of time. It did not came from heaven in the “printed form”. Gurus took human birth to bless people with banis.
Moreover, no deh-dhari guru of any dera is connected with Sikhism. Then why do you have pain is difficult to understand.They have their own system in place. Infact, this is a matter of jealous. This is hard to digest for many.
Moreover,everybody has a free will and fundamental right to go where ever he/she likes. Who are you to force yourself on others?
Before advising others set your own house in order first.
[Last warning, if you switch names again you will be banned. Admin]
@ Admin.
you are very quick to respond. Verifying the credentials is a good practice. Thanks.
True goal for a human being is to reach to the God by becoming a good human first (a central teaching of all religions).
We admire all saints, gurus and all other bold ones who could dare to ask questions about their own beliefs and then recommended improvements from time to time.
Whatever we see today is compete insanity towards religions and their teachings. Come on guys, learn how to behave like gentlemen first.
There is differnece between a guru and a satguru. A guru can be true or false, but a satguru is always 'sat' i.e. true. No dehdhari satguru never disrespect any other dehdhari satguru or any scripture. There were dehdhari satgurus, there are dehdhari satgurus, and there will be dehdhari satgurus. The ten guru sahibans were dehdhari satgurus, and they never disrespected any scripture or any dehdhari satguru of their times. Satguru Shri Guru Gobing Singh Ji accumulated 'bani' of all satgurus in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. But Satguru Shri Guru Gobing Singh Ji never said that no dehdhari satguru will ever come to this world or you should disrespect dehdhari satgurus. Then why we disrespect dehdhari satgurus? If our satguru never disrespected any dehdhari satguru, then are we above our satguru when we disrespect dehdhari satgurus?
For those asking whats the big deal about Deras, they are big a deal. Many of them started after 1984, the particular Dera in the past giving alot of trouble was Dera Sucha Sauda, the leader Ram Raheem Insaan(Insane).
He is not only wanted by Sikhs, but by the CBI and a judge has issued an order for his arrest, and also for at least several cases of murder, and with 25 rapes of women attending the dera he operates. His bodyguard shot and murdered a Sikh. Also murders attributed to him are those of a newspaper reporter, the driver, the treasurer of his organization (who was tortured), and another member of his dera who was working with the previous leader of the dera.
No one has arrested him, siting back log of cases for the judiciary.
I have been watching the English electronic media and reading some of the English dailies. I am based in Bangalore and am getting the complete spectrum of the coverage today.
Here is my take –
1> TimesNow (Electronic News Channel) –
As usual no clue. Claims this is "sectarian violence. However, the only reports they have is of people attacking public property – this is not two groups of people clashing – which would be the definition of sectarian violence.
2> NDTV (Electronic News Channel) –
Despite being told categprically by two eminent panelists that this not a "dalit" vs "Jat" issue – they insist on looking at the incident through the yellow lens of caste and run a poll on Deras and caste.
NDTV took the cake – by asking panelists why the Dera chief has not called for peace. She was told by the panel that both leaders were victims of the Austrian attack. One passed away the other is seriously injured. She changed the topic promptly to Dera Sacha Sauda.
3> CNN IBN – Could not understand any of the barking by Rajdeep.
Print –
4> The Hindu – Had a neutral coverage in this mornings paper. There was no "speculation". They stuck largely to the facts of the matter. In fact, they reported on an attempted attack at an orphange (which nobody else covered). There was no attempt to sensationalize this. Sober journalism.
They were the only ones to prominently report the "joint" call by the Shiromani Akali Dal and Dera Sach Kand to protest the killing.
5> New Indian Express –
Carried a provocative blurb that says
" Leaders at the Vienna Gurudwara, which opened in 2005 have campaigned against the caste system. Their stance has angered other Sikhs in Austria."
There is nothing to back this rather speculative statement.
Many people in the media have been to quick to jump to the conclusion that this could lead to something sinister in Punjab. None of them looked very closely at the fact that Ravidasis were not Sikhs although they held the Sikh texts in high regard (Rabi Das Ji's work is part of the Gru Granth Sahib – just like Kabir's)
Overall – the media has shown in itself in a poor light and as grossly insensitive to the cultural and religious complexities that underline this particular incident.
PLEASE DO NOT INTERRELATE DIFFERENT GURU'S AND DERA'S EVERYONE HAVE DIFFRENT THINKING AND VALUES.THERE IS NO POSSIBILTY OF DISSRESPECTING ANY GURU OR GURU GRANTH SAHIB BY SACHKHAND BALLAH BECAUSE IT ALSO INCLUDES BANI OF OUR LORD SHRI GURU RAVI DASS GI
[Please don't use all CAPS, this will get you banned next time. –Admin]
There is differnece between a guru and a satguru. A guru can be true or false, but a satguru is always ‘sat’ i.e. true. No dehdhari satguru never disrespect any other dehdhari satguru or any scripture. There were dehdhari satgurus, there are dehdhari satgurus, and there will be dehdhari satgurus. The ten guru sahibans were dehdhari satgurus, and they never disrespected any scripture or any dehdhari satguru of their times. Satguru Shri Guru Gobing Singh Ji accumulated ‘bani’ of all satgurus in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. But Satguru Shri Guru Gobing Singh Ji never said that no dehdhari satguru will ever come to this world or you should disrespect dehdhari satgurus. Then why we disrespect dehdhari satgurus? If our satguru never disrespected any dehdhari satguru, then are we above our satguru when we disrespect dehdhari satgurus?
I have been watching the English electronic media and reading some of the English dailies. I am based in Bangalore and am getting the complete spectrum of the coverage today.
Here is my take –
1> TimesNow (Electronic News Channel) –
As usual no clue. Claims this is “sectarian violence. However, the only reports they have is of people attacking public property – this is not two groups of people clashing – which would be the definition of sectarian violence.
2> NDTV (Electronic News Channel) –
Despite being told categprically by two eminent panelists that this not a “dalit” vs “Jat” issue – they insist on looking at the incident through the yellow lens of caste and run a poll on Deras and caste.
NDTV took the cake – by asking panelists why the Dera chief has not called for peace. She was told by the panel that both leaders were victims of the Austrian attack. One passed away the other is seriously injured. She changed the topic promptly to Dera Sacha Sauda.
3> CNN IBN – Could not understand any of the barking by Rajdeep.
Print –
4> The Hindu – Had a neutral coverage in this mornings paper. There was no “speculation”. They stuck largely to the facts of the matter. In fact, they reported on an attempted attack at an orphange (which nobody else covered). There was no attempt to sensationalize this. Sober journalism.
They were the only ones to prominently report the “joint” call by the Shiromani Akali Dal and Dera Sach Kand to protest the killing.
5> New Indian Express –
Carried a provocative blurb that says
” Leaders at the Vienna Gurudwara, which opened in 2005 have campaigned against the caste system. Their stance has angered other Sikhs in Austria.”
There is nothing to back this rather speculative statement.
Many people in the media have been to quick to jump to the conclusion that this could lead to something sinister in Punjab. None of them looked very closely at the fact that Ravidasis were not Sikhs although they held the Sikh texts in high regard (Rabi Das Ji’s work is part of the Gru Granth Sahib – just like Kabir’s)
Overall – the media has shown in itself in a poor light and as grossly insensitive to the cultural and religious complexities that underline this particular incident.
PLEASE DO NOT INTERRELATE DIFFERENT GURU’S AND DERA’S EVERYONE HAVE DIFFRENT THINKING AND VALUES.THERE IS NO POSSIBILTY OF DISSRESPECTING ANY GURU OR GURU GRANTH SAHIB BY SACHKHAND BALLAH BECAUSE IT ALSO INCLUDES BANI OF OUR LORD SHRI GURU RAVI DASS GI
[Please don’t use all CAPS, this will get you banned next time. –Admin]
Bole So Nihal, Sat Sri Akaal, I have been to Panjab and all I saw were Jats and Dalits being like brothers, my parents have told me that our mutual relationship goes back many centuries, what we see here are the posturing of our so called leaders.
Two things
1, No-one has the right to make changes in our religion or to ridicule it, you will do so at your peril.
2, If you consider yourselves Sikhs then you will also know that creation of false Gurus is forbidden.
I a person wishes to become a living Guru then let him do so with his own religion, this has nothing to do with Caste, this is to do with respect.
Bole So Nihal, Sat Sri Akaal, I have been to Panjab and all I saw were Jats and Dalits being like brothers, my parents have told me that our mutual relationship goes back many centuries, what we see here are the posturing of our so called leaders.
Two things
1, No-one has the right to make changes in our religion or to ridicule it, you will do so at your peril.
2, If you consider yourselves Sikhs then you will also know that creation of false Gurus is forbidden.
I a person wishes to become a living Guru then let him do so with his own religion, this has nothing to do with Caste, this is to do with respect.
Its abt disrespect of Guru Granth Sahib ji not abt caste.And this was going on in vienna for abt 2-3 years now, they were continuously disrespecting Guru Granth Sahib ji.They brought on it themselves.
All Bani in Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is equal; the author of the Bani in all cases was a very spiritually attuned person.
The problem that Sikhs have with these Deras and cults is simple. They use Guru Granth Sahib Ji, they choose to follow parts of Bani that is written by a particular person hence making caste divisions etc. The Maryada of Guru Maharaj is affected, most of these cultist places do not keep Maharaj correctly eg performing Praksah at Amritvela and Sukhasan at night.
So before you start to tarnish all Sikhs as being caught up in the caste system etc. you should look to see how much it hurts to see your Father being mistreated and misused and disrespected.
The point I made about the cults and sects having illiterate followers stands corrected if these people are as educated as pointed out, then they must be stupid to feel the need to run around after dehdari babas when they already have a Perfect Guru.
Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj!!!
Its abt disrespect of Guru Granth Sahib ji not abt caste.And this was going on in vienna for abt 2-3 years now, they were continuously disrespecting Guru Granth Sahib ji.They brought on it themselves.
Violence should be condemned. Freedom to form your own religion and philosophy should be upheld. However, messsing up an existing religion to create a distorted copy-cat by making fake-living-gurus is malafide in intent. Peaceful ways should be acceptable to question the latter.
This is not about caste as rpeorted by most of the media. Also this is not about intra-sikh rivalry again as reported by media. This is about someone taking to wrong means (violence) to question the right issue (malafide intent to distort the faith).
I am perfectly ok if Ravidasis form a new religion called XYZ which is distinct from sikhism and do not include the Holy Granth in their places of worship as that is often not used as per expected respect there (meaning alongside idols and portraits)
All Bani in Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is equal; the author of the Bani in all cases was a very spiritually attuned person.
The problem that Sikhs have with these Deras and cults is simple. They use Guru Granth Sahib Ji, they choose to follow parts of Bani that is written by a particular person hence making caste divisions etc. The Maryada of Guru Maharaj is affected, most of these cultist places do not keep Maharaj correctly eg performing Praksah at Amritvela and Sukhasan at night.
So before you start to tarnish all Sikhs as being caught up in the caste system etc. you should look to see how much it hurts to see your Father being mistreated and misused and disrespected.
The point I made about the cults and sects having illiterate followers stands corrected if these people are as educated as pointed out, then they must be stupid to feel the need to run around after dehdari babas when they already have a Perfect Guru.
Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj!!!
Violence should be condemned. Freedom to form your own religion and philosophy should be upheld. However, messsing up an existing religion to create a distorted copy-cat by making fake-living-gurus is malafide in intent. Peaceful ways should be acceptable to question the latter.
This is not about caste as rpeorted by most of the media. Also this is not about intra-sikh rivalry again as reported by media. This is about someone taking to wrong means (violence) to question the right issue (malafide intent to distort the faith).
I am perfectly ok if Ravidasis form a new religion called XYZ which is distinct from sikhism and do not include the Holy Granth in their places of worship as that is often not used as per expected respect there (meaning alongside idols and portraits)
Violence, in any form is bad.This is inhumanity. This shows how animal instincts has delved deep into the very genes of people.
I strongly condemn the acts of violence that is being unleashed in PUNJAB. Who is fighting with whom ? We are all brothers. I pray to Lord to bless all the people with sanity. Peace must prevail at all costs.
Having said that, I must ask, who started it all ? Those idiots who attacked in Vienna.. did they know what would be the repercussions?
And regarding, covert threat that jatt/Sikhs are planning a 'robust defense' I want to tell you that, that would be idiotic too. Any adverse action could be detrimental to the peace of the country which we desperately need. Dalit comprises more than 50% of India. This could be very dangerous, if situation goes out of hand especially outside Punjab.
Moreover,may I ask, where did your Mardanagi vanish, against the perpetrators of 1984 sikh violence. They are still at large. Where did your 'robust defense' go when Americans attack sikhs for Talibans ? Where do the jatt/sikh organisations go when European police enter Gurudwaras with their shoes on and beat people inside of the Gurudwaras.This is certainly not be-adbi to you. Has anybody dared to fight europeans or americans ?
When it comes to the helpless downtrodden, your selective 'robust defense' comes into being.
great.
Is all your Mardanagi for the dalits only ?