The INDIA Lobby and US Foreign Policy
In 2006, Professors John Mearsheimer (University of Chicago) and Stephen Walt (Harvard) published a book titled The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy. In the book, Mearsheimer and Walt raise the following point – that since 1967, America’s relationship with Israel has been the centerpiece of its Middle East foreign policy.
They then ask the question:
Why has the US been willing to set aside its own security and that of many of its allies in order to advance the interests of another state? One might assume that the bond between the two countries was based on shared strategic interests or compelling moral imperatives, but neither explanation can account for the remarkable level of material and diplomatic support that the US provides…. So if neither strategic nor moral arguments can account for America’s support for Israel, how are we to explain it?[link]
The answer:
The explanation is the unmatched power of the Israel Lobby. We use ‘the Lobby’ as shorthand for the loose coalition of individuals and organisations who actively work to steer US foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction. This is not meant to suggest that ‘the Lobby’ is a unified movement with a central leadership, or that individuals within it do not disagree on certain issues. Not all Jewish Americans are part of the Lobby, because Israel is not a salient issue for many of them. In a 2004 survey, for example, roughly 36 per cent of American Jews said they were either ‘not very’ or ‘not at all’ emotionally attached to Israel.[link]
While the Israeli Lobby remains one of the most powerful groups in Washington DC, there is a rising group in town – the India Lobby. Sometimes I am shocked by the naivety of Sikh-Americans that have NO understanding of the power of the Indian lobby. They are generally completely ignorant of the vast prestige and increasing power of this group. (Then of course, there is the other extreme that believe ‘agents’ lurk around every corner and never hesitate to call anyone that disagrees with them, a ‘sarkari agent.’)
In the past few weeks, the strength of this lobby and its powerful grip on the new Obama administration has been increasing revealed. Vijay Prasad has recently highlighted the powerful formation:
The Indian American Task Force will take their message to Congress and to the new administration, asking them to be much tougher on Pakistan. The impetus for this new combine and its lobbying is the Mumbai attacks of December 2008. But this is not just about justice for the victims of Mumbai. There is another dynamic involved, which is to walk the Jewish American road, to create an “India Lobby” that resembles the “Israel Lobby.”[link]
The primary group in the India Lobby is the US India Political Action Committee (USINPAC), a group that was formed after 9/11 with the close support and encouragement of the American Jewish Committee (AJCommittee) and the American Israel Political Action Committee (AIPAC).
The power of the India Lobby is extremely impressive. Congressman Frank Pallone, a Democrat from New Jersey, has been the primary architect of the India Caucus. In less than a decade almost 25% of the entire House is now part of the India Caucus. Generous donations from Indian-American community leaders and Indian Government channels have helped grease the wheels of support. The Lobby proved its first test of effectiveness by defeating Dan Burton’s annual bid to end US assistance to India. Dan Burton, who has always raised various Sikh issues in the Congress, stated that the India Lobby “beat me into the ground.” In 2002, Pallone was awarded by the Indian Government for his work and was presented the coveted Padma Bhushan, one of India’s highest civilian awards.
Still not convinced of the rising power of the India Lobby and its grip on the new Obama administration? Nothing could have been more evident than the formation of the new US envoy to South Asia. Foreign Policy magazine reports that
Richard Holbrooke, the veteran negotiator of the Dayton accords and sharp-elbowed foreign policy hand who has long advised Clinton, was officially named “special representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan” in what was meant to be one of the signature foreign policy acts of Obama’s first week in office.
But the omission of India from his title, and from Clinton’s official remarks introducing the new diplomatic push in the region was no accident — not to mention a sharp departure from Obama’s own previously stated approach of engaging India, as well as Pakistan and Afghanistan, in a regional dialogue. Multiple sources told The Cable that India vigorously — and successfully — lobbied the Obama transition team to make sure that neither India nor Kashmir was included in Holbrooke’s official brief.[link]
Although various groups have tried to justify reasons behind Obama’s decision, still:
Whatever the case, the evidence that India was able to successfully lobby the Obama transition in the weeks before it took office to ensure Holbrooke’s mission left them and Kashmir out is testament to both the sensitivity of the issue to India as well as the prowess and sophistication of its Washington political and lobbying operation.
Once Holbrooke’s name was floated, the Indian lobbying campaign became even more intense. “The Indians do not like Holbrooke because he has been very good on Pakistan… and has a very good feel for the place” said one former U.S. official on condition of anonymity. “The Indians have this town down.“[link]
The budget and power of the rising India Lobby is tremendous. The report gives some notion of the India Lobby’s resources:
Other sources said India’s hired lobbyists were deployed to shape the contours of the U.S. diplomatic mission. According to lobbying records filed with the Department of Justice, since 2005, the government of India has paid BGR about $2.5 million…In addition, the Indian embassy in Washington has paid lobbying firm Patton Boggs $291,665 under a six-month contract that took effect Aug. 18, according to lobbying records.[link]
With such vast resources, on issues where the India Lobby (read: Indian Government) and Sikh issues diverge, expect an even further uphill battle. Whether you agree or disagree with the Khalistani projects, stalwarts such as Gurmit Aulakh, Ajrawat, and Amarjit Singh did a remarkable seva to have a Sikh voice heard, when there was nothing, in Washington DC during the 1980s and 90s. However it is time for bold thinking and a new project. It is in the interest of all Punjabis to keep Punjab nuclear-free and to make sure that humans rights abuses are noted and have consequences. I hope Sikhs play a role, but also invite like-minded Muslims, Hindus, Christians, etc. to create a Punjab-PAC to remain vigilant on such issues that effect the people of Punjab.
The new India Lobby seems to be close to the most right-wing of Indian politicians. They will continue to beat wardrums against Pakistan. This is not in the interest of the Punjab, as greater economic exchanges and religious tourism, is for the benefit of the people of Punjab. All interested parties would do well to begin contemplating the ramifications of the new and improved India Lobby and its seat at Obama’s table.
110 Responses to “The INDIA Lobby and US Foreign Policy”
why are you wasting your time you [edited by admin]..don't come to our holy land if you don't want to..but there is no answer to your [edited]..you are all [edited]..you are not worty of calling the followers of Guru Gobind singh..just watch out now you lot are the next on agenda in US..dont say you were not warned you [edited]
[keep talking like this and you'll be banned next time. -admin]
why are you wasting your time you [edited by admin]..don’t come to our holy land if you don’t want to..but there is no answer to your [edited]..you are all [edited]..you are not worty of calling the followers of Guru Gobind singh..just watch out now you lot are the next on agenda in US..dont say you were not warned you [edited]
[keep talking like this and you’ll be banned next time. -admin]
IF India thinks that Messrs. Holbrook/Obama will give Pakistan no satisfaction on the Kashmir conundrum, think again. Why? Because:
1- The Taliban are NOT going away.
2- The U.S. needs Pakistan now and ever (going back 50+ years)
3- Pakistan's full and unmitigated cooperation may not be forthcoming without such resolution.
During Obama's term, Kashmir will be solved. Too bad we had a GOLDEN opportunity during our courageous Musharraf, but all we got was more and more CBM's.
IF India thinks that Messrs. Holbrook/Obama will give Pakistan no satisfaction on the Kashmir conundrum, think again. Why? Because:
1- The Taliban are NOT going away.
2- The U.S. needs Pakistan now and ever (going back 50+ years)
3- Pakistan’s full and unmitigated cooperation may not be forthcoming without such resolution.
During Obama’s term, Kashmir will be solved. Too bad we had a GOLDEN opportunity during our courageous Musharraf, but all we got was more and more CBM’s.
This is ibviously a biased and propagandist piece meant to alarm and thus motivate the anti-India crowd. It should be ignored oher than to note the fact that the anti-India, pro-Pak crowd is now mobilizing and needs to be countered.
This is ibviously a biased and propagandist piece meant to alarm and thus motivate the anti-India crowd. It should be ignored oher than to note the fact that the anti-India, pro-Pak crowd is now mobilizing and needs to be countered.
Bhai Jodha,
A. I think a nuclear free south asia /world is a better bet. How exactly do you keep punjab nuclear free (assuming you are including west punjab in this nuclear free zone) if rest of india/Pakistan are nuke-armed?. There is nothing like a unified punjab. Also, do you mean nuke-free or nuclear free. Are you against nuclear power plants as well? {incidently, I have often wondered: would the putative state of Khalistan have included pakistani punjab as well? never got a clear answer}.
B. N. Javed sahab: Pakistanis, after 9/11 had the same dream- since the US needs us, we will force them to force the indians to solve kashmir to our satisfaction- didn't happen. what makes you think that US has that kind of extraordinary leverage to make us give up, what most of us, rightly (or in your view, wrongly) consider a part of india (I am NOT discussing the morality, just the facts on the ground). Try to think logically. See, historically, countries have given up territories when they have been defeated comprehensively (e.g. arabs at the hands of israel in 1968) or are in such dire economic straits that they can be forced by outside powers (e.g. indonesians and e.timor). You, OTOH,have fought multiple wars with india over Kashmir, never won, lost half of your country in the process and the jihadis created by your establishement to kill hindus are killing you. Why will Kashmir be solved to your satisfaction? and why should it be? What you couldn't win in the war, will certainly not be handed to you in peace. And what will Obama do to force India…nuke us? send NATO troops? organize global boycott of india? How exactly will you be provided 'satisfaction". do enlighten us?
thanks!
Bhai Jodha,
A. I think a nuclear free south asia /world is a better bet. How exactly do you keep punjab nuclear free (assuming you are including west punjab in this nuclear free zone) if rest of india/Pakistan are nuke-armed?. There is nothing like a unified punjab. Also, do you mean nuke-free or nuclear free. Are you against nuclear power plants as well? {incidently, I have often wondered: would the putative state of Khalistan have included pakistani punjab as well? never got a clear answer}.
B. N. Javed sahab: Pakistanis, after 9/11 had the same dream- since the US needs us, we will force them to force the indians to solve kashmir to our satisfaction- didn’t happen. what makes you think that US has that kind of extraordinary leverage to make us give up, what most of us, rightly (or in your view, wrongly) consider a part of india (I am NOT discussing the morality, just the facts on the ground). Try to think logically. See, historically, countries have given up territories when they have been defeated comprehensively (e.g. arabs at the hands of israel in 1968) or are in such dire economic straits that they can be forced by outside powers (e.g. indonesians and e.timor). You, OTOH,have fought multiple wars with india over Kashmir, never won, lost half of your country in the process and the jihadis created by your establishement to kill hindus are killing you. Why will Kashmir be solved to your satisfaction? and why should it be? What you couldn’t win in the war, will certainly not be handed to you in peace. And what will Obama do to force India…nuke us? send NATO troops? organize global boycott of india? How exactly will you be provided ‘satisfaction”. do enlighten us?
thanks!
Easy answers Sargam,
You made an incorrect assumption. I am only referring to East Punjab. Keep nuclear weapons out of East Punjab. I'll root for a similar movement to occur in West Punjab.
Next question:
I have absolutely no clue what the relevance of this question is, but it seems that the locals in the Patiala district oppose, where a suggested nuclear plant facility was being considered. Even some of the main political personalities in Punjab seem rather ambiguous too, so thanks for asking.
Final question:
Here is your clear answer – No
Easy answers Sargam,
You made an incorrect assumption. I am only referring to East Punjab. Keep nuclear weapons out of East Punjab. I’ll root for a similar movement to occur in West Punjab.
Next question:
I have absolutely no clue what the relevance of this question is, but it seems that the locals in the Patiala district oppose, where a suggested nuclear plant facility was being considered. Even some of the main political personalities in Punjab seem rather ambiguous too, so thanks for asking.
Final question:
Here is your clear answer – No
Jodha,
Thanks for the answers. Much appreciated. now, here is one more:
1. A Punjab PAC will do what? Increase support for a nuclear-weapons free East Punjab among US lawmakers? thats a fair objective. And how will that pressurize GOI? You will have the usual suspects, the triumvirate of rohrabacher, burton and the guy from NY doing their non-productive,india-bashing stunts, destroying any hopes of a broad based coalition of people who genuinely care for a nukes free-south asia. Don't you think a mass-movement based in Punjab will be able to achieve more? There is only so much that can be done by 'x' number of people. Also, this is an issue for all punjabis and therefore unless the coalition includes both communities, hindus and sikhs, will be destined to sadly degenerate into a sectarian issue.
thanks,
Jodha,
Thanks for the answers. Much appreciated. now, here is one more:
1. A Punjab PAC will do what? Increase support for a nuclear-weapons free East Punjab among US lawmakers? thats a fair objective. And how will that pressurize GOI? You will have the usual suspects, the triumvirate of rohrabacher, burton and the guy from NY doing their non-productive,india-bashing stunts, destroying any hopes of a broad based coalition of people who genuinely care for a nukes free-south asia. Don’t you think a mass-movement based in Punjab will be able to achieve more? There is only so much that can be done by ‘x’ number of people. Also, this is an issue for all punjabis and therefore unless the coalition includes both communities, hindus and sikhs, will be destined to sadly degenerate into a sectarian issue.
thanks,
Good to hear something like this, however, Sikh youth activities in the US lack any serious engagement with the issues and are childish as compared to the activists from Punjab, what do you suggest?
Good to hear something like this, however, Sikh youth activities in the US lack any serious engagement with the issues and are childish as compared to the activists from Punjab, what do you suggest?
The Hindu Lobby will fight hard to justify its racial and ethnic brutality over Sikhs in the West. The main purpose of Hindu lobby will be to justify Dominance.
The Hindu Lobby will fight hard to justify its racial and ethnic brutality over Sikhs in the West. The main purpose of Hindu lobby will be to justify Dominance.
Sargam,
Thanks for the response. I don't think a Punjab-PAC in advocating a nuclear-weapons-free Punjab and promoting greater channels of economic and religious tourism across the Punjab borders could not garner wide-spread support. The US has enormous influence upon India and a Punjab-PAC would be a meeting point for like-minded interests. No one needs to engage in "India-bashing" – those are the days of old. A Punjab-PAC can still engage in bringing notice about human rights abuses in Punjab or wherever they should occur in South Asia. Such conversation need not be construed as "bashing." Where there are points of congruence the Punjab-PAC can work with the India Lobby and where there are points of divergence, they will part ways. We need not a zero-sum game.a
You ask:
Things need not be either/or. Both can occur and the diasporic communities have usually been on the forefront of such issues. Let it start in the diaspora as that is where both of us are and then let us create networks and channels for it to become a mass-movemenet in Punjab as well. Punjabis in the US and Punjabis in East Punjab need not be 'x' limited. Let both groups open up the ranks.
You ask:
In the post, I attempted to address this issue by writing:
Prabhsharandeep, you ask:
I think it is an important question. There are two things at play.
Let us first take on the question of Sikh youth activities in the US – we are only in the first generation in the US-diaspora. As the first wave of immigration (post-1965) only began arriving in the 1970s, for a person to be born here, at most an activist would be in their 30s right now. For this very first wave, born in 1970-1975 in the US, there were few Gurdwaras (probably at each one another's houses randomly or monthly visits that required long travels) and support networks at their time and they were the first few that began creating Sikh camps. Some have a strong Sikh-conscious formation and others don't. However subsequent age-group, those born 1976-1982 spent their formative years in the height of the post-1984 politics and especially the Khalistani movement that was almost unanimously supported in the US until the early 1990s. It was their parents that were most engaged in these issues and they spent their youth hearing those sounds and seeing those pictures. Just a reminder, here I am still only focusing on US-born Sikhs. It is amongst this same age network that we have seen a coming-out in terms of "religio-cultural" programs. It is this group that has started the 4 conferences in the 4 corners of the US — Surat (NY), Jaago (FL), Jakara Movement (CA), and Seattle Sikh Retreat (WA). These are innovative and reflect the Sikh experience in the US.
Amongst generation 1.5, we have seen the growth in the US of a number of wonderful institutions. It is from this group that were born in Punjab/India that often experienced the violence of 1984 and then came to the US that allowed opportunities for them to create effective organizations. SALDEF, Sikh Coalition, SRI, and US-components of United Sikhs to name just a few. These groups, although often started by generation 1.5, are becoming more and more staffed by those Sikhs born in America.
Give the generation in America more time. Don't be so impatient. 2009 has many more avenues to engage Sikhs than there were in 1979 or even 1989. Communities evolve in generations, not in a few years/months/days.
Finally with regards to activists in Punjab, they have a much longer history and channels to develop in. While there are all streams of activists in Punjab doing amazing seva, they still have not figured out how to defeat the patrimonial dynasty that is the Badals. Without even first attempting to retake the SGPC most efforts will be fruitless. Many promising activists fall into becoming clients of Badal. With Kaka Badal, Punjab's coronated son, the future of Punjab looks bleak and activists in Punjab have much to tackle.
Also one should not paint too rosy of a picture in Punjab. In some aspects activists in Punjab have largely failed. In fact, many recent immigrants to the US from Punjab, from my experience, often decry that there is much more Sikhi in the US and comment on how "backward" we are here in that people care here about Sikhi.
Sargam,
Thanks for the response. I don’t think a Punjab-PAC in advocating a nuclear-weapons-free Punjab and promoting greater channels of economic and religious tourism across the Punjab borders could not garner wide-spread support. The US has enormous influence upon India and a Punjab-PAC would be a meeting point for like-minded interests. No one needs to engage in “India-bashing” – those are the days of old. A Punjab-PAC can still engage in bringing notice about human rights abuses in Punjab or wherever they should occur in South Asia. Such conversation need not be construed as “bashing.” Where there are points of congruence the Punjab-PAC can work with the India Lobby and where there are points of divergence, they will part ways. We need not a zero-sum game.a
You ask:
Things need not be either/or. Both can occur and the diasporic communities have usually been on the forefront of such issues. Let it start in the diaspora as that is where both of us are and then let us create networks and channels for it to become a mass-movemenet in Punjab as well. Punjabis in the US and Punjabis in East Punjab need not be ‘x’ limited. Let both groups open up the ranks.
You ask:
In the post, I attempted to address this issue by writing:
Prabhsharandeep, you ask:
I think it is an important question. There are two things at play.
Let us first take on the question of Sikh youth activities in the US – we are only in the first generation in the US-diaspora. As the first wave of immigration (post-1965) only began arriving in the 1970s, for a person to be born here, at most an activist would be in their 30s right now. For this very first wave, born in 1970-1975 in the US, there were few Gurdwaras (probably at each one another’s houses randomly or monthly visits that required long travels) and support networks at their time and they were the first few that began creating Sikh camps. Some have a strong Sikh-conscious formation and others don’t. However subsequent age-group, those born 1976-1982 spent their formative years in the height of the post-1984 politics and especially the Khalistani movement that was almost unanimously supported in the US until the early 1990s. It was their parents that were most engaged in these issues and they spent their youth hearing those sounds and seeing those pictures. Just a reminder, here I am still only focusing on US-born Sikhs. It is amongst this same age network that we have seen a coming-out in terms of “religio-cultural” programs. It is this group that has started the 4 conferences in the 4 corners of the US — Surat (NY), Jaago (FL), Jakara Movement (CA), and Seattle Sikh Retreat (WA). These are innovative and reflect the Sikh experience in the US.
Amongst generation 1.5, we have seen the growth in the US of a number of wonderful institutions. It is from this group that were born in Punjab/India that often experienced the violence of 1984 and then came to the US that allowed opportunities for them to create effective organizations. SALDEF, Sikh Coalition, SRI, and US-components of United Sikhs to name just a few. These groups, although often started by generation 1.5, are becoming more and more staffed by those Sikhs born in America.
Give the generation in America more time. Don’t be so impatient. 2009 has many more avenues to engage Sikhs than there were in 1979 or even 1989. Communities evolve in generations, not in a few years/months/days.
Finally with regards to activists in Punjab, they have a much longer history and channels to develop in. While there are all streams of activists in Punjab doing amazing seva, they still have not figured out how to defeat the patrimonial dynasty that is the Badals. Without even first attempting to retake the SGPC most efforts will be fruitless. Many promising activists fall into becoming clients of Badal. With Kaka Badal, Punjab’s coronated son, the future of Punjab looks bleak and activists in Punjab have much to tackle.
Also one should not paint too rosy of a picture in Punjab. In some aspects activists in Punjab have largely failed. In fact, many recent immigrants to the US from Punjab, from my experience, often decry that there is much more Sikhi in the US and comment on how “backward” we are here in that people care here about Sikhi.
Prabhsharandeep—
Wouldn't it better to positively attempt to engage and inspire the sikh youth of America whom you perceive to be so out of touch with the experience of Punjab, rather than working tirelessly on forming a intellectual cabal meant to promote a self-stylized perception of Sikh academia and in doing so completely alienate, antagonize and put down anyone and everyone who you deem to be in opposition to your grand social visions.
Prabhsharandeep—
Wouldn’t it better to positively attempt to engage and inspire the sikh youth of America whom you perceive to be so out of touch with the experience of Punjab, rather than working tirelessly on forming a intellectual cabal meant to promote a self-stylized perception of Sikh academia and in doing so completely alienate, antagonize and put down anyone and everyone who you deem to be in opposition to your grand social visions.
somebody posing as me left a message.
somebody posing as me left a message.
[I am glad you learned the Control-C function Sumit, now don't ever use it here…Admin Singh]
[I am glad you learned the Control-C function Sumit, now don’t ever use it here…Admin Singh]
I just want to say that Dr.Aulakh did alot for the Quam in the 80's-90's. I feel this article is not alarmist and we need to step up to the plate and develop a platform since our needs and views are different that the pan Indian-right wing Hindu view.
I just want to say that Dr.Aulakh did alot for the Quam in the 80’s-90’s. I feel this article is not alarmist and we need to step up to the plate and develop a platform since our needs and views are different that the pan Indian-right wing Hindu view.
Here is Sikhtoons take on the issue.
http://www.sikhtoons.com/SikhLobby.html
Here is Sikhtoons take on the issue.
http://www.sikhtoons.com/SikhLobby.html
Sikhs ahould weigh all pros and cons and not land up being like
" KURDS".
Our goal should be to see that India remains a "SECULAR DEMOCRATIC" country
Sikhs ahould weigh all pros and cons and not land up being like
” KURDS”.
Our goal should be to see that India remains a “SECULAR DEMOCRATIC” country
Jodha:
I disagree with you.
I have come across a few activities which are not part of the Sikh youth networks you mentioned, the results are satisfactory developments and have become visible within a time period of 4-5 years.
There are some myths, functional behind the basic modes of engagement diaspora Sikh youth have. We need to understand and deconstruct those formulations, and have some fresh beginning. The conventions in these Sikh youth networks are actually the main obstacles in any serious activity. I do not understand why do we become so defensive and deny any possibility of even a sensible conversation about what we have been doing so far.
The observations I have are based on my experience with both activism and writings of the Sikh youth active in the diaspora. I am going to focus my attention on these in future and will try to be specific.
I think we need to discuss it, otherwise I don't understand what would be the purpose to pay attention to the activities of Indian lobby.
Jodha:
I disagree with you.
I have come across a few activities which are not part of the Sikh youth networks you mentioned, the results are satisfactory developments and have become visible within a time period of 4-5 years.
There are some myths, functional behind the basic modes of engagement diaspora Sikh youth have. We need to understand and deconstruct those formulations, and have some fresh beginning. The conventions in these Sikh youth networks are actually the main obstacles in any serious activity. I do not understand why do we become so defensive and deny any possibility of even a sensible conversation about what we have been doing so far.
The observations I have are based on my experience with both activism and writings of the Sikh youth active in the diaspora. I am going to focus my attention on these in future and will try to be specific.
I think we need to discuss it, otherwise I don’t understand what would be the purpose to pay attention to the activities of Indian lobby.
SSF:
You sound really upset with me. Your condition of positive attempts, which I am willing to talk about, does not reflect through your language/approach to the matter.
.
I think I have made some efforts to engage and inspire the youth positively.
Why do you need to ridicule my visions, which I would term as anything but social?
Can you elaborate more on my self-stylized perception of Sikh academia?
Intellectual cabal – you need to explain it.
I have an emotional connection with the name and the web link you tried to use. The web site seems to be something that belongs to me, something that I personally own.
Thanks!
SSF:
You sound really upset with me. Your condition of positive attempts, which I am willing to talk about, does not reflect through your language/approach to the matter.
.
I think I have made some efforts to engage and inspire the youth positively.
Why do you need to ridicule my visions, which I would term as anything but social?
Can you elaborate more on my self-stylized perception of Sikh academia?
Intellectual cabal – you need to explain it.
I have an emotional connection with the name and the web link you tried to use. The web site seems to be something that belongs to me, something that I personally own.
Thanks!
Harinder just how is India a "seular" state? India doesn't even recognizes Sikhs..Why should Sikhs?
Harinder just how is India a “seular” state? India doesn’t even recognizes Sikhs..Why should Sikhs?
Prabhsharandeep,
You have said nothing specific.
Prabhsharandeep,
You have said nothing specific.
Jodha:
I thought I shared my opinion without targeting any group in particular, and thought there was some room for discussion as I claimed that I have first hand experience of some activities, other than those which you mentioned, and have seen results in case of people, who, while in their early twenties, have made good progress. I was not specific because I thought it might bring the discussion on an absurd level. My purpose is not to attack anybody but to challenge the conventions. I do have some opinions about Jakara, Sikh coalition, and Sikh Research Institute etc. and can be specific if I have to. What I want to say is that there are some ideas about Sikhi, religion, culture, truth, good, evil, and success etc., which have been universalized during the process of colonization, and its new phase, globalization. Diaspora Sikh youth groups are defining their activism within the boundaries of such metanarratives, and have not done enough to qualify even as a small narrative. Therefore, they engage the youth in such unproductive activities that it does not leave possibility of having even a serious conversation. The kids who already think in absolute terms start thinking that they are the only one who are doing something for the Panth.
Let me know if it provides enough for you to begin a discussion, if not, I'll try to be specific.
Jodha:
I thought I shared my opinion without targeting any group in particular, and thought there was some room for discussion as I claimed that I have first hand experience of some activities, other than those which you mentioned, and have seen results in case of people, who, while in their early twenties, have made good progress. I was not specific because I thought it might bring the discussion on an absurd level. My purpose is not to attack anybody but to challenge the conventions. I do have some opinions about Jakara, Sikh coalition, and Sikh Research Institute etc. and can be specific if I have to. What I want to say is that there are some ideas about Sikhi, religion, culture, truth, good, evil, and success etc., which have been universalized during the process of colonization, and its new phase, globalization. Diaspora Sikh youth groups are defining their activism within the boundaries of such metanarratives, and have not done enough to qualify even as a small narrative. Therefore, they engage the youth in such unproductive activities that it does not leave possibility of having even a serious conversation. The kids who already think in absolute terms start thinking that they are the only one who are doing something for the Panth.
Let me know if it provides enough for you to begin a discussion, if not, I’ll try to be specific.
Let us definitely be more specific. You are still speaking in vagaries. With regards to these organizations, specifically how are they unproductive, according to you? And how are they rooted in a 'colonial mindset' (and what is this 'colonial mindset'), if I am understanding your argument correctly?
Let us definitely be more specific. You are still speaking in vagaries. With regards to these organizations, specifically how are they unproductive, according to you? And how are they rooted in a ‘colonial mindset’ (and what is this ‘colonial mindset’), if I am understanding your argument correctly?
I am as confused as Jodha. Prabhsharan Veerji, can you also show examples of more serious activism of similar groups here and compare them to the activism in the Punjab?
I am as confused as Jodha. Prabhsharan Veerji, can you also show examples of more serious activism of similar groups here and compare them to the activism in the Punjab?
Jodha and Doab:
I had some things that I had to finish, therefore, could not get back to you earlier.
During colonization, a process of translation started, when everything was reinterpreted according imperialist discourse, which was grounded in the Enlightenment philosophy. That colonization of psychic space, not over yet, was intended to deny any difference. Most of us, who are living in that space, approach things with a colonial mindset. I have been to Jakara, and have interacted with people from Sikh coalition for past few years, therefore, I can share my experiences about both of them. On the other hand, Sikh Research Institute has provided me with enough written material, which can be helpful in grounding my argument properly. I do believe that these institutions are big obstacles in starting any serious activities. I do want to discuss it in detail. I might not be quick in responding because I still have some things to finish. Any thoughts?
Jodha and Doab:
I had some things that I had to finish, therefore, could not get back to you earlier.
During colonization, a process of translation started, when everything was reinterpreted according imperialist discourse, which was grounded in the Enlightenment philosophy. That colonization of psychic space, not over yet, was intended to deny any difference. Most of us, who are living in that space, approach things with a colonial mindset. I have been to Jakara, and have interacted with people from Sikh coalition for past few years, therefore, I can share my experiences about both of them. On the other hand, Sikh Research Institute has provided me with enough written material, which can be helpful in grounding my argument properly. I do believe that these institutions are big obstacles in starting any serious activities. I do want to discuss it in detail. I might not be quick in responding because I still have some things to finish. Any thoughts?
Prabhsharandeep,
You have said NOTHING specific. Take a day, a month, or a year, but write something that makes a point. You're reproducing previous arguments that have already been articulated or are in press that are widely known by the fifty or so people that pay attention to 'Sikh studies.'
Prabhsharandeep,
You have said NOTHING specific. Take a day, a month, or a year, but write something that makes a point. You’re reproducing previous arguments that have already been articulated or are in press that are widely known by the fifty or so people that pay attention to ‘Sikh studies.’
Doab,
I really think it was specific enough to make my point. If you explain more how should really be more specific, I'll try whatever I can.
It was Hegel who historicized and dialecticized everything. I am saying the way these people approach things, it never goes beyond the historical or dialectical context. If I be more specific, in Sojhi, the syllabus for Gurdwara schools, Sikh Research Institute not only puts everything in the historical context, even goes further to misinterpret, add new details, and delete some parts in order to fit everything in its specific framework. For example, you can look at the Ardaas sections in Sojhi, which are section 7-B-06, and 7-B-07.
There are more details about Sojhi that can be discussed to support my arguments. Let me know if I was specific enough, if not, I'll try whatever I can. I was reluctant to be specific, not because I did not have anything to say, but for the reason that I wanted to keep the discussion on a certain level. It seems like I really offended you and other people on this blog
Doab,
I really think it was specific enough to make my point. If you explain more how should really be more specific, I’ll try whatever I can.
It was Hegel who historicized and dialecticized everything. I am saying the way these people approach things, it never goes beyond the historical or dialectical context. If I be more specific, in Sojhi, the syllabus for Gurdwara schools, Sikh Research Institute not only puts everything in the historical context, even goes further to misinterpret, add new details, and delete some parts in order to fit everything in its specific framework. For example, you can look at the Ardaas sections in Sojhi, which are section 7-B-06, and 7-B-07.
There are more details about Sojhi that can be discussed to support my arguments. Let me know if I was specific enough, if not, I’ll try whatever I can. I was reluctant to be specific, not because I did not have anything to say, but for the reason that I wanted to keep the discussion on a certain level. It seems like I really offended you and other people on this blog
…when I was actually trying to avoid any confrontations.
…when I was actually trying to avoid any confrontations.
Prabhsharan,
If you articulate a specific point, with evidence, it cannot be offensive. I suppose this notion can also be applied to certain academics that are 'blacklisted' in the Sikh community.
I dont have access to Sojhi materials, so its hard to me to understand the points that you are making. How would your interpretation Ardaas differ from Sojhis? How can we approach Sikhi(sm) from a non 'western' point of view? Is such an interpretation possible? If we are all trapped in a colonial mindset then how are we (and all other colonized peoples) to break free to the chains that (continue to) bind our analysis?
Prabhsharan,
If you articulate a specific point, with evidence, it cannot be offensive. I suppose this notion can also be applied to certain academics that are ‘blacklisted’ in the Sikh community.
I dont have access to Sojhi materials, so its hard to me to understand the points that you are making. How would your interpretation Ardaas differ from Sojhis? How can we approach Sikhi(sm) from a non ‘western’ point of view? Is such an interpretation possible? If we are all trapped in a colonial mindset then how are we (and all other colonized peoples) to break free to the chains that (continue to) bind our analysis?
Now you're talking to me Mr(s) Doab!
This is exactly what I was doing when you wanted me to be specific, so, how should I understand your shifts? However, I will try my best to address all of your concerns/questions.
Now you’re talking to me Mr(s) Doab!
This is exactly what I was doing when you wanted me to be specific, so, how should I understand your shifts? However, I will try my best to address all of your concerns/questions.
I gave them. So I suppose it is up to you to address them.
However if your project is to criticize and denounce while providing no viable alternative, then this conversation is useless.
I gave them. So I suppose it is up to you to address them.
However if your project is to criticize and denounce while providing no viable alternative, then this conversation is useless.
Dear Mr(s). Doab,
These are smart questions Mr(s). Doab, so I congratulate your curiosity. But you immediately lose points with your follow up.
What a sophisticated state we find ourselves in, Mr(s). Doab- We can't even call false that which is false until we provide you with alternatives! Don't you know that the False and illusory will remain no matter your personal entertainment? And don't you know that it is no small matter that, if only purportedly, the Hegelian edifice functional in the imperialist encounter played heavy hand in determining the course of the Sikh formation of 'religion'? Apparently you find the profound idea useless, lest you're presented alternatives! What a fanciful state of affairs indeed!
Dear Mr(s). Doab,
These are smart questions Mr(s). Doab, so I congratulate your curiosity. But you immediately lose points with your follow up.
What a sophisticated state we find ourselves in, Mr(s). Doab- We can’t even call false that which is false until we provide you with alternatives! Don’t you know that the False and illusory will remain no matter your personal entertainment? And don’t you know that it is no small matter that, if only purportedly, the Hegelian edifice functional in the imperialist encounter played heavy hand in determining the course of the Sikh formation of ‘religion’? Apparently you find the profound idea useless, lest you’re presented alternatives! What a fanciful state of affairs indeed!