Sikhs could learn from Icelandic on stigmas, taboos
Over a year ago, Ajmer Singh Hothi was found shot dead inside a semi-truck that he had just bought and was still making payments on. Only a day before, he had changed his phone number and gotten a restraining order against his ex-girlfriend and her father. [link]
More information surrounding the case has recently became available since 553 pages of court records from a grand jury hearing have become public.
A prosecutor accuses Gurparkash Khalsa of being driven by humiliation over his daughter’s soiled reputation to the point of ambushing Hothi in a big rig parked east of Stockton. The 56-year-old now sits in a jail cell charged with capital murder… Details of the case recently became public when San Joaquin County Superior Court Judge Charlotte Orcutt unsealed the 553-page transcripts of a four-day grand jury hearing that ended with Khalsa’s April 25 indictment. He was arrested hours later. [link]
The events that led to Ajmer’s death began with a relationship between Hothi and Khalsa’s daughter.
It began in November 2004, when a secret romance sparked between Hothi and Khalsa’s daughter, Kiranjot Pannu, then age 17. The lovers kept it quiet because Hothi was a lowly trucker, while her father owned Pacific Coast Intermodal in French Camp. Hothi’s father, also a trucker, once worked for Khalsa and feared him, according to Hothi’s sister, Kiranjit Hothi, who testified before the grand jury. [link]
Khalsa forbade the romance and Hothi’s parents sent Ajmer to India for an arranged marriage. But then Khalsa heard rumors that Hothi had gotten his daughter pregnant, and that she’d had an abortion. The angry father then demanded that Hothi marry his daughter. He followed Ajmer to India and tried to have him divorced. It seems that he was unsuccessful, and word of his attempt traveled back to Stockton where Khalsa felt humiliated in the eyes of the community. [link]
As for evidence against Khalsa:
Investigators never recovered the weapon, but years ago Khalsa registered a similar type of gun with the Stockton Police Department. He cannot establish an alibi, among other evidence Himelblau [the prosecutor] said he has against Khalsa. [link]
An unexpected and interesting contrast is found in Iceland, which has the highest birth rate in Europe + highest divorce rate + highest percentage of women working outside the home but also tops the latest table of the United Nations Development Programme’s (UNDP) Human Development Index rankings…
meaning that as a society and as an economy – in terms of wealth, health and education – they are champions of the world. . . According to a seemingly serious academic study reported in the Guardian in 2006, Icelanders are the happiest people on earth. (The study was lent some credibility by the finding that the Russians were the most unhappy.) [link]
Regardless of the truth of the study cited by the article, one factor in particular that the Icelandic cite for their success is really interesting and especially applicable to the Sikh community.
Oddny Sturludottir, a 31-year-old mother of two, told me she had a good friend who was 25 and had three children by a man who had just left her. ‘But she has no sense of crisis at all,’ Oddny said. ‘She’s preparing to get on with her life and her career in a perfectly optimistic frame of mind.’ …. It is a largely pagan country, as the natives like to see it, unburdened by the taboos that generate so much distress elsewhere. That means they are practical people. [link]
The Icelandic have high rates of divorce.
‘That is not something to be proud of,’ said Oddny, with a brisk smile, ‘but the fact is that Icelanders don’t stay in lousy relationships. They just leave.’ And the reason they can do so is that society, starting with the parents and grandparents, does not stigmatise them for making that choice. Icelanders are the least hung-up people in the world. [link]
I’m not advocating for more divorce, just less judgment from the community when relationships are lousy and go awry. We already raise children through extended and patchwork families (depending on how much and where parents are working), but everyone has an opinion about what’s best or right for everyone else. We all are familiar with the intense shame that our peers and adults (even complete strangers) mete out for a variety of reasons that don’t merit shame- being too religious or not religious enough, going to college too far from home, not having the ‘right’ job, getting married too early or too late, etc. (though as commenters have discussed, there may be a productive use for shaming too). Maybe we should learn from the Icelandic – stop stigmatising and stop being hung up by these stigmas/taboos. (Though I have to point out that Icelandic also have the benefit of major state investment in education from pre-school onwards and healthcare, which is less effective in the US.)
104 Responses to “Sikhs could learn from Icelandic on stigmas, taboos”
Truly a shame – those poor brown folk who only live alongside other brown folk and have not made long-lasting friendships with ‘goray’. The ‘goray’, of course, are enlightened and truly cultured folk, and all brown folk would be well advised to aspire to such heights of sophistication.
So P.Singh my parents when they came to Canada over 35 years ago, should have kept themselves instead of being part of the community. I think if you find people in our community who like my parents and only don't keep to themselves are less likley to be worried about old cultural taboos, then those who make no effort to make friend outside of community.
I'm not talking about just having white friends, even having Indian friends like Bengal's, Gurjati's or Paris among others or other friends like Japanese, Flippino or Black or Iranian. Which I can say that my friends had when I was younger.
I’m not advocating for more divorce, just less judgment from the community when relationships are lousy and go awry.
Is that ever gonna happen. Anytime there is a divorce in our community, 99% of the time the women is blamed no matter how bad the wife is treated by her husband.
Icelanders are the least hung-up people in the world.
That probably true in most of the western europe.
But is really a good choice to copy the Icelandic way. After all Icelandic people are Gora.
And from what I've heard a millions of times from other punjabis is. That Gora's have no culture, they divorce easy, there women all sleep around, the parents don't support the kids when they turn 18, they don't take care of there elders when they get old, family is not important to them, the women are allowed to drink, and on and on. And don't even get started what they say about kala[black], but that another story.
My parents never talked like that, since we grow up in area that 99% white and my parents became part of the community and made many friends. Some of them who have been friends for over 3 decades.
While I agree Reema that we should stop stigmatizing one another, I am not sure how another nation-state provides a model. Instead of "models" of other communities, why don't we learn to tweak systems that do stem from our own cultural systems to push progressive thought?
As you mentioned and as P.Singh, bdb, and I discussed before shaming does work. Why don't we figure out better 'selective' ways to channel social shaming (not the way it functioned for Khalsa) to push for a more progressive spirit and feelings of 'proper' outrage in our community.
I’m not advocating for more divorce, just less judgment from the community when relationships are lousy and go awry.
Is that ever gonna happen. Anytime there is a divorce in our community, 99% of the time the women is blamed no matter how bad the wife is treated by her husband.
Icelanders are the least hung-up people in the world.
That probably true in most of the western europe.
But is really a good choice to copy the Icelandic way. After all Icelandic people are Gora.
And from what I’ve heard a millions of times from other punjabis is. That Gora’s have no culture, they divorce easy, there women all sleep around, the parents don’t support the kids when they turn 18, they don’t take care of there elders when they get old, family is not important to them, the women are allowed to drink, and on and on. And don’t even get started what they say about kala[black], but that another story.
My parents never talked like that, since we grow up in area that 99% white and my parents became part of the community and made many friends. Some of them who have been friends for over 3 decades.
Yes Suki,
Truly a shame – those poor brown folk who only live alongside other brown folk and have not made long-lasting friendships with 'goray'. The 'goray', of course, are enlightened and truly cultured folk, and all brown folk would be well advised to aspire to such heights of sophistication.
Truth be said, brown folk should thank 'goray' for even allowing them entry into their lands. It absolutely disgusts me that brown folk had to actually get physical with 'goray' in order to stop the racist violence, and attacks on their homes some years ago – how dare they! If they weren't so brown, and would have put aside their silly turbans, backward language and religion, and tried to be more Canadian (or 'gora', same thing), they wouldn't have had such problems.
Gosh darn it, I wish I was white.
Truth be said, brown folk should thank ‘goray’ for even allowing them entry into their lands. It absolutely disgusts me that brown folk had to actually get physical with ‘goray’ in order to stop the racist violence, and attacks on their homes some years ago – how dare they! If they weren’t so brown, and would have put aside their silly turbans, backward language and religion, and tried to be more Canadian (or ‘gora’, same thing), they wouldn’t have had such problems.
Give me a break P.Singh. Of course there is racism in Canada. Just as there as racism in every country in there world and there will be. But Canada as come a long way and one of the best places in the world to be a minority.
Speaking of racism, Still in the year 2008 in Punjab you have Jatt controled Gurdawara's that don't let in lower castes sikh in. But we much rather talk about racist all white people and ignores are own racist views.
While I agree Reema that we should stop stigmatizing one another, I am not sure how another nation-state provides a model. Instead of “models” of other communities, why don’t we learn to tweak systems that do stem from our own cultural systems to push progressive thought?
As you mentioned and as P.Singh, bdb, and I discussed before shaming does work. Why don’t we figure out better ‘selective’ ways to channel social shaming (not the way it functioned for Khalsa) to push for a more progressive spirit and feelings of ‘proper’ outrage in our community.
The reason Jaswinder Sidhu and Amandeep Atwal are no longer here with us, is that there family would have lost there standing in the community cause of those girls relationships, so those girls ended paying for there lifes.
May I just add that next month that my sister is marrying a Sri Lankan Tamil Hindu guy. My Parents are understanding and open minded, but I have heard comments from some people in the community what an awful job my parents did.
Indeed Suki – but your self-loathing, coupled with your placement of 'white' culture on a pedestal is, to put it kindly, nauseating.
A significant chunk of my family is inter-married – it happens when your family has been in Canada over a century. However, I see little merit in the huge blanket statements you frequently make, essentially coloring all that is 'brown' as bad and painting 'white' culture as some fountain of pure goodness.
Indeed Suki – but your self-loathing, coupled with your placement of ‘white’ culture on a pedestal is, to put it kindly, nauseating.
I could I put white culture on pedestal, when I thought white people have no culture.
However, I see little merit in the huge blanket statements you frequently make, essentially coloring all that is ‘brown’ as bad and painting ‘white’ culture as some fountain of pure goodness.
When did I say that brown is bad and white culture is pure goodness. I just not a fan of punjabi village culture that just does not work in Western country's.
All I have said that you need to adapt when you move to a western country and leave certain practices behing when you move to counrty that is alot different then the one you move to.
I have met Indians of other backgrounds in Canada/United States and I think they do a much better job of mixing the 2 cultures. I have alot of family in the America and they do a much better job of mixing the 2 cultures then what I see here in Vancover.
Most of the issues of sexism I see in the punjabi community are cause of things that should be left behind in Punjab. I have a 9 year old daughter and I don't want to deal with the issues of sexism that so many young girls have to deal with in our community. And anybody who does see these issues are blind.
Yes Suki,
Truly a shame – those poor brown folk who only live alongside other brown folk and have not made long-lasting friendships with ‘goray’. The ‘goray’, of course, are enlightened and truly cultured folk, and all brown folk would be well advised to aspire to such heights of sophistication.
Truth be said, brown folk should thank ‘goray’ for even allowing them entry into their lands. It absolutely disgusts me that brown folk had to actually get physical with ‘goray’ in order to stop the racist violence, and attacks on their homes some years ago – how dare they! If they weren’t so brown, and would have put aside their silly turbans, backward language and religion, and tried to be more Canadian (or ‘gora’, same thing), they wouldn’t have had such problems.
Gosh darn it, I wish I was white.
Truth be said, brown folk should thank ‘goray’ for even allowing them entry into their lands. It absolutely disgusts me that brown folk had to actually get physical with ‘goray’ in order to stop the racist violence, and attacks on their homes some years ago – how dare they! If they weren’t so brown, and would have put aside their silly turbans, backward language and religion, and tried to be more Canadian (or ‘gora’, same thing), they wouldn’t have had such problems.
Give me a break P.Singh. Of course there is racism in Canada. Just as there as racism in every country in there world and there will be. But Canada as come a long way and one of the best places in the world to be a minority.
Speaking of racism, Still in the year 2008 in Punjab you have Jatt controled Gurdawara’s that don’t let in lower castes sikh in. But we much rather talk about racist all white people and ignores are own racist views.
The reason Jaswinder Sidhu and Amandeep Atwal are no longer here with us, is that there family would have lost there standing in the community cause of those girls relationships, so those girls ended paying for there lifes.
May I just add that next month that my sister is marrying a Sri Lankan Tamil Hindu guy. My Parents are understanding and open minded, but I have heard comments from some people in the community what an awful job my parents did.
Reema, my apologies for hi-jacking the thread – will try to exercise better control in the future.
Our Gurus removed the taboo against widows remarrying – perhaps the taboo against divorce and remarriage should be the next to fall?
I am, admittedly, a little uncomfortable with this, if only because I'm an optimist. In general, I like to think two people should be able to 'work things out' and not part ways for simple inconvenience or because the 'spark' is no longer there. Divorce, from what I have seen recently in my own generation, becomes an easy way out for many: "Ok – we just don't get along anymore – lets quit this relationship." One reason for the more frequent divorces in the community now, as opposed to 30 years ago, is the stigma is not so pronounced anymore. I'm not saying this is a bad thing – simply, its a lot easier for a couple to take the divorce route now than in the past.
Shedding stigmas is perhaps the healthier approach in most cases – why live life with guilt and shame? Do what makes life easier for you and Rab Rakha – yes, no?
Much easier said than done though – I am racking my mind, thinking of all the 'westernized' uncles, aunts, elders I know in the Punjabi community, many of whom were born here in Canada, and cannot think of one who would not be absolutely mortified if their daughter had a child out of wedlock, or was involved in an extra-marital relationship.
[Nice rebound P.Singh, but as you knew this was eventually coming…. Suki and P.Singh keep it civil and not personal. Stick to the issue. As 2pac once said, leave the drama in fujiyama (or something like that)….Admin Singh]
Indeed Suki – but your self-loathing, coupled with your placement of ‘white’ culture on a pedestal is, to put it kindly, nauseating.
Truly a shame – those poor brown folk who only live alongside other brown folk and have not made long-lasting friendships with ‘goray’. The ‘goray’, of course, are enlightened and truly cultured folk, and all brown folk would be well advised to aspire to such heights of sophistication.
So P.Singh my parents when they came to Canada over 35 years ago, should have kept themselves instead of being part of the community. I think if you find people in our community who like my parents and only don’t keep to themselves are less likley to be worried about old cultural taboos, then those who make no effort to make friend outside of community.
I’m not talking about just having white friends, even having Indian friends like Bengal’s, Gurjati’s or Paris among others or other friends like Japanese, Flippino or Black or Iranian. Which I can say that my friends had when I was younger.
A significant chunk of my family is inter-married – it happens when your family has been in Canada over a century. However, I see little merit in the huge blanket statements you frequently make, essentially coloring all that is ‘brown’ as bad and painting ‘white’ culture as some fountain of pure goodness.
Indeed Suki – but your self-loathing, coupled with your placement of ‘white’ culture on a pedestal is, to put it kindly, nauseating.
I could I put white culture on pedestal, when I thought white people have no culture.
However, I see little merit in the huge blanket statements you frequently make, essentially coloring all that is ‘brown’ as bad and painting ‘white’ culture as some fountain of pure goodness.
When did I say that brown is bad and white culture is pure goodness. I just not a fan of punjabi village culture that just does not work in Western country’s.
All I have said that you need to adapt when you move to a western country and leave certain practices behing when you move to counrty that is alot different then the one you move to.
I have met Indians of other backgrounds in Canada/United States and I think they do a much better job of mixing the 2 cultures. I have alot of family in the America and they do a much better job of mixing the 2 cultures then what I see here in Vancover.
Most of the issues of sexism I see in the punjabi community are cause of things that should be left behind in Punjab. I have a 9 year old daughter and I don’t want to deal with the issues of sexism that so many young girls have to deal with in our community. And anybody who does see these issues are blind.
Reema, my apologies for hi-jacking the thread – will try to exercise better control in the future.
Our Gurus removed the taboo against widows remarrying – perhaps the taboo against divorce and remarriage should be the next to fall?
I am, admittedly, a little uncomfortable with this, if only because I’m an optimist. In general, I like to think two people should be able to ‘work things out’ and not part ways for simple inconvenience or because the ‘spark’ is no longer there. Divorce, from what I have seen recently in my own generation, becomes an easy way out for many: “Ok – we just don’t get along anymore – lets quit this relationship.” One reason for the more frequent divorces in the community now, as opposed to 30 years ago, is the stigma is not so pronounced anymore. I’m not saying this is a bad thing – simply, its a lot easier for a couple to take the divorce route now than in the past.
Shedding stigmas is perhaps the healthier approach in most cases – why live life with guilt and shame? Do what makes life easier for you and Rab Rakha – yes, no?
Much easier said than done though – I am racking my mind, thinking of all the ‘westernized’ uncles, aunts, elders I know in the Punjabi community, many of whom were born here in Canada, and cannot think of one who would not be absolutely mortified if their daughter had a child out of wedlock, or was involved in an extra-marital relationship.
[Nice rebound P.Singh, but as you knew this was eventually coming…. Suki and P.Singh keep it civil and not personal. Stick to the issue. As 2pac once said, leave the drama in fujiyama (or something like that)….Admin Singh]
Thanks for taking it back to the point of the post, P. Singh.
I wasn't saying that we should be completely like the Icelandic- just pointing out that the lack of taboos for them, was one factor that they attribute their success to.
And Mewa- I don't think Iceland should be a model for us, just that it's an interesting contrast. I don't think we could eliminate shame from our community, even if we wanted to.
You and others were commenting on how to use shame positively in another post. The things that shame is used for right now- relationships, social standing, inter-caste marriages – aren't high priority problems that should be stigmatized. We use shame profusely, far more than we should, and for the wrong things. (yes, an obvious point, but I wasn't trying to be brilliant.)
Thanks for taking it back to the point of the post, P. Singh.
I wasn’t saying that we should be completely like the Icelandic- just pointing out that the lack of taboos for them, was one factor that they attribute their success to.
And Mewa- I don’t think Iceland should be a model for us, just that it’s an interesting contrast. I don’t think we could eliminate shame from our community, even if we wanted to.
You and others were commenting on how to use shame positively in another post. The things that shame is used for right now- relationships, social standing, inter-caste marriages – aren’t high priority problems that should be stigmatized. We use shame profusely, far more than we should, and for the wrong things. (yes, an obvious point, but I wasn’t trying to be brilliant.)
I'm actually not disagreeing with you Reema
Heck, imagine life free of restrictions imposed by most social taboos and other stigmas – it's certainly liberating. I'm sure most of us have been in situations, where after much agonizing weighing of what is right and wrong/proper and improper, we say "Aww $%$^ it – I'm going to do it, and I don't give a %^Y& who has a problem with it". The lead-up to that one moment is often torture, but man-o-man, the moment itself is such a relief.
I'm sure if we think about it, there are certain taboos and stigmas in our culture most of us would be happy without.
For instance, what's up with this fat taboo? If I have a gut, and I enjoy resting my hands on it while watching t.v. – and the way it playfully jiggles when I'm driving – I shouldn't be ashamed. And if I decide to have another helping of Breyers double-churned ice-cream – I shouldn't have to worry about what anyone else thinks – damn it, love me for it!
Suki,
I don't know why you are so critical of Punjab village mentality. It is very natural for immigrants ( in some cases) to safeguard their cultural practices by staying within their own group. This practice does fill void left by social isolation when one cannot speak English. Where I live we see lot of Hispanic immigrants concentrated in one area of the city. They depend on each other to help each other out. Most of our patients at the local health department have heard about our services through their peers in the community. I wonder if we would have reached that many number of people through our community outreach efforts. There is positive side to this phenomenon of staying within your own group. Believe me they are doing it for reason.
I’m actually not disagreeing with you Reema
Heck, imagine life free of restrictions imposed by most social taboos and other stigmas – it’s certainly liberating. I’m sure most of us have been in situations, where after much agonizing weighing of what is right and wrong/proper and improper, we say “Aww $%$^ it – I’m going to do it, and I don’t give a %^Y& who has a problem with it”. The lead-up to that one moment is often torture, but man-o-man, the moment itself is such a relief.
I’m sure if we think about it, there are certain taboos and stigmas in our culture most of us would be happy without.
For instance, what’s up with this fat taboo? If I have a gut, and I enjoy resting my hands on it while watching t.v. – and the way it playfully jiggles when I’m driving – I shouldn’t be ashamed. And if I decide to have another helping of Breyers double-churned ice-cream – I shouldn’t have to worry about what anyone else thinks – damn it, love me for it!
Suki,
I don’t know why you are so critical of Punjab village mentality. It is very natural for immigrants ( in some cases) to safeguard their cultural practices by staying within their own group. This practice does fill void left by social isolation when one cannot speak English. Where I live we see lot of Hispanic immigrants concentrated in one area of the city. They depend on each other to help each other out. Most of our patients at the local health department have heard about our services through their peers in the community. I wonder if we would have reached that many number of people through our community outreach efforts. There is positive side to this phenomenon of staying within your own group. Believe me they are doing it for reason.
our community's social behavior is driven by 'what everyone else will say'. Not to say that other communities don't do this, but we in particular take it to another level.
I have had those moments of f-it! I am doing this and everyone can shove it. It was like an elephant finally got off my chest and left.
Suki and P.Singh keep it civil and not personal. Stick to the issue. As 2pac once said, leave the drama in fujiyama (or something like that)….Admin Singh]
I have no problem keeping it civil, but if P.Singh keeps up with his personal attacks almost every time I leave a comment, that I have the right to defend myself.
I don’t know why you are so critical of Punjab village mentality. It is very natural for immigrants ( in some cases) to safeguard their cultural practices by staying within their own group.
My problem is that people don't appreciate how lucky they are to be living in one of the great country in the world. I just get tired of there bashing Canada and talking about how things are great in the Punjab. Canada is one of the best country's in the world and there are hundreds of millions people all across the world and they would give anything to live in Western Country.
Kristen Kaur, may I also add I find the village mentality to be very sexist towards women. I just can't not image how these young girls who grew up between two cultures among parents who have no idea how it is to grow in the west. Where as there brothers can do anything and get away with it.
Like I have said before Jaswinder Sidhu and Amandeep Atwal losts there lifes due to the fact there family lost standing in there social circle due to the relationships these girls chose to be in.
Much easier said than done though – I am racking my mind, thinking of all the ‘westernized’ uncles, aunts, elders I know in the Punjabi community, many of whom were born here in Canada, and cannot think of one who would not be absolutely mortified if their daughter had a child out of wedlock, or was involved in an extra-marital relationship.
I hope they are just as mortified if there sons do the same thing
our community’s social behavior is driven by ‘what everyone else will say’. Not to say that other communities don’t do this, but we in particular take it to another level.
I have had those moments of f-it! I am doing this and everyone can shove it. It was like an elephant finally got off my chest and left.
Suki and P.Singh keep it civil and not personal. Stick to the issue. As 2pac once said, leave the drama in fujiyama (or something like that)….Admin Singh]
I have no problem keeping it civil, but if P.Singh keeps up with his personal attacks almost every time I leave a comment, that I have the right to defend myself.
I don’t know why you are so critical of Punjab village mentality. It is very natural for immigrants ( in some cases) to safeguard their cultural practices by staying within their own group.
My problem is that people don’t appreciate how lucky they are to be living in one of the great country in the world. I just get tired of there bashing Canada and talking about how things are great in the Punjab. Canada is one of the best country’s in the world and there are hundreds of millions people all across the world and they would give anything to live in Western Country.
Kristen Kaur, may I also add I find the village mentality to be very sexist towards women. I just can’t not image how these young girls who grew up between two cultures among parents who have no idea how it is to grow in the west. Where as there brothers can do anything and get away with it.
Like I have said before Jaswinder Sidhu and Amandeep Atwal losts there lifes due to the fact there family lost standing in there social circle due to the relationships these girls chose to be in.
Much easier said than done though – I am racking my mind, thinking of all the ‘westernized’ uncles, aunts, elders I know in the Punjabi community, many of whom were born here in Canada, and cannot think of one who would not be absolutely mortified if their daughter had a child out of wedlock, or was involved in an extra-marital relationship.
I hope they are just as mortified if there sons do the same thing
breaking my hiatus to voice a bit of support for Suki, since he's been lambasted from a few different directions. i don't know his comment history, but i see his point here…
i grew up attending gurudwara regularly but not really living near or going to school with any sikhs/punjabis/indians. i grew up being strictly raised a sikh, having attended summer camps and what not, but not at all Punjabi (i had no idea what bhangra even was until college). my folks get along very well with indians, sikhs, AND white people, as they were forced to interact daily with average americans, from professionals to trailer park trash, through work. while some of my closest friends are sikhs and indians, i typically feel far more comfortable around new/random groups of white people because i know how to deal and manage their ignorance as opposed to the retarded baggage so many sikhs and indians might bring to interactions with other sikhs and indians.
with that context, i take tremendous pride in a few elements of Punjabi culture, namely the hospitality. many other elements, elements that are not necessarily unique to punjabis, i despise. one is the "pride" in and of itself. this is often most clearly manifested as "jatt sikh" pride. sorry, but as its trumpeted, it's oxymoronic, castism akin to racism, and yet is a sentiment so proudly held by so many in our community. i don't say this only because i'm not a jatt (i didn't even know what jatt/kathri/etc. was until college), i say it because i try to look at it from an objective standpoint, and those attitudes are far more destructive to the Sikh community's cohesiveness than any other factor. i still just get pissed off every time i hear of a JSF/JSM seeking a JSF/JSM, especially when they are or are from an amritdhari family.
this unfettered pride in punjabi culture, often pride in the ways and roots of the pindh more than anything, are most often championed, vocally, by those who love their jatt sikh bad ass selves. besides taking pride in an idea that is the anathema of sikhi, castism, they dwell on certain old fashioned tendencies that are the anathema of the progressive, adaptive, cosmopolitan attitude that has most pointedly marked the pinnacles in sikh history.
quite simply, sikhi and punjabi culture (and many of its flaws – sexism, castism, romaticized party lifestyle) have survived hand in hand for a long time. and most people might identify themselves as punjabi sikh. what is of note, though, is that when the two identities conflict, which is often, punjabi is more often chosen over sikh with a certain amount of prideful glee. but rather than ostracizing that choice when it is in regards to a particularly backwards element of punjabi culture, most in our community sit and twiddle our thumbs, whistling a punjabi version of dixie. and when that backward element then reflects upon all sikhs? that's when i take it personally and have no qualms about calling out the bullsh*t.
so, in regards to this post – who cares about the icelanders. we don't need to look to another culture that, in my humble opinion, is over liberalized. they may be successful and happy because there are many, MANY other factors at play, including their history and insularity. apply some of their characteristics to american society, such as high divorce and out of wedlock births, and you'll highlight the most statistically failed groups of people in our society. it's inapplicable. instead, why don't we just turn to the principles that are preached every day in our gurudwaras and take those to heart rather than just pay it lipservice.
this applies to female foeticide, general sexism, castism, prevalent racism, ridiculous amounts of gossip, competitiveness within families and others, insularity, lack of education, alcoholism, assholes killing their daughters' lovers, etc., etc., etc.
First – a request – could Langar Hall please introduce a "threaded commenting system" so that we can ignore long threads of conversation between Suki and P.Singh? Not that they don't have valid points, but sometimes you are more interested in the general view of the public rather than the particular discussion (or almost bickering) between two individuals.
Now, about the original post – Icelandic culture is a local culture. Sikh culture is a universal culture. The author of this post is misinformed if she feels that the father killed Ajmer Hothi under the influence of social stigma created by his Sikh culture. Sikh culture is in the Sikh scriptures, traditions, and organizations. Sikh culture is Hola Mohalla, and bana, and dtadi vaars, and gatka, and other social habits and customs guided by the Sikh traditions. If you are talking about PUNJABI CULTURE, then that is a different thing. Please compare apples with apples.
Just to add to my comment – there are Sikhs born and raised in countries all over the world. Their parents and grandparents could have been from any part of the world as well. And Sikhs make their own culture, while the traditions are based on the culture of Sikhs from the past. In the past even, Guru Nanak Dev ji travelled all over Asia, the Middle East and Southern Europe. Guru Nanak dev ji's worldly family was of a different "culture" than Guru Gobind Singh ji's worldly family. All of the Punj Pyare were from different locations. Sikh culture, therefore, is NOT synonymous with Punjabi culture, and Sikh hymns that include customs from Punjabi culture are at the most a spiritual and social commentary of those customs, not an endorsement.
to clarify one additional thing –
it also applies to judgmental attitude, self-righteousness, stigmatizing, ostracizing, exiling, etc, etc. while certain behavior may be anti-sikh, sikhi teaches some pretty common sense values of forgiveness, brotherly love, fraternity, etc. a certain amount of stigma is necessary for any society to function and not descend into organized anarchy or lack of any identity – this is applicable to punjabi and sikh communities. moreover, a family has a right to maintain certain values and thresholds of behavior. but just as ridiculous as a punjabi who practices castism and sexism is the "paka" sikh who is self-righteous and overly judgmental. neither really embodies the universal principles of sikhi to help their fellow man without question, to abide by the golden rule.
breaking my hiatus to voice a bit of support for Suki, since he’s been lambasted from a few different directions. i don’t know his comment history, but i see his point here…
i grew up attending gurudwara regularly but not really living near or going to school with any sikhs/punjabis/indians. i grew up being strictly raised a sikh, having attended summer camps and what not, but not at all Punjabi (i had no idea what bhangra even was until college). my folks get along very well with indians, sikhs, AND white people, as they were forced to interact daily with average americans, from professionals to trailer park trash, through work. while some of my closest friends are sikhs and indians, i typically feel far more comfortable around new/random groups of white people because i know how to deal and manage their ignorance as opposed to the retarded baggage so many sikhs and indians might bring to interactions with other sikhs and indians.
with that context, i take tremendous pride in a few elements of Punjabi culture, namely the hospitality. many other elements, elements that are not necessarily unique to punjabis, i despise. one is the “pride” in and of itself. this is often most clearly manifested as “jatt sikh” pride. sorry, but as its trumpeted, it’s oxymoronic, castism akin to racism, and yet is a sentiment so proudly held by so many in our community. i don’t say this only because i’m not a jatt (i didn’t even know what jatt/kathri/etc. was until college), i say it because i try to look at it from an objective standpoint, and those attitudes are far more destructive to the Sikh community’s cohesiveness than any other factor. i still just get pissed off every time i hear of a JSF/JSM seeking a JSF/JSM, especially when they are or are from an amritdhari family.
this unfettered pride in punjabi culture, often pride in the ways and roots of the pindh more than anything, are most often championed, vocally, by those who love their jatt sikh bad ass selves. besides taking pride in an idea that is the anathema of sikhi, castism, they dwell on certain old fashioned tendencies that are the anathema of the progressive, adaptive, cosmopolitan attitude that has most pointedly marked the pinnacles in sikh history.
quite simply, sikhi and punjabi culture (and many of its flaws – sexism, castism, romaticized party lifestyle) have survived hand in hand for a long time. and most people might identify themselves as punjabi sikh. what is of note, though, is that when the two identities conflict, which is often, punjabi is more often chosen over sikh with a certain amount of prideful glee. but rather than ostracizing that choice when it is in regards to a particularly backwards element of punjabi culture, most in our community sit and twiddle our thumbs, whistling a punjabi version of dixie. and when that backward element then reflects upon all sikhs? that’s when i take it personally and have no qualms about calling out the bullsh*t.
so, in regards to this post – who cares about the icelanders. we don’t need to look to another culture that, in my humble opinion, is over liberalized. they may be successful and happy because there are many, MANY other factors at play, including their history and insularity. apply some of their characteristics to american society, such as high divorce and out of wedlock births, and you’ll highlight the most statistically failed groups of people in our society. it’s inapplicable. instead, why don’t we just turn to the principles that are preached every day in our gurudwaras and take those to heart rather than just pay it lipservice.
this applies to female foeticide, general sexism, castism, prevalent racism, ridiculous amounts of gossip, competitiveness within families and others, insularity, lack of education, alcoholism, assholes killing their daughters’ lovers, etc., etc., etc.
First – a request – could Langar Hall please introduce a “threaded commenting system” so that we can ignore long threads of conversation between Suki and P.Singh? Not that they don’t have valid points, but sometimes you are more interested in the general view of the public rather than the particular discussion (or almost bickering) between two individuals.
Now, about the original post – Icelandic culture is a local culture. Sikh culture is a universal culture. The author of this post is misinformed if she feels that the father killed Ajmer Hothi under the influence of social stigma created by his Sikh culture. Sikh culture is in the Sikh scriptures, traditions, and organizations. Sikh culture is Hola Mohalla, and bana, and dtadi vaars, and gatka, and other social habits and customs guided by the Sikh traditions. If you are talking about PUNJABI CULTURE, then that is a different thing. Please compare apples with apples.
Just to add to my comment – there are Sikhs born and raised in countries all over the world. Their parents and grandparents could have been from any part of the world as well. And Sikhs make their own culture, while the traditions are based on the culture of Sikhs from the past. In the past even, Guru Nanak Dev ji travelled all over Asia, the Middle East and Southern Europe. Guru Nanak dev ji’s worldly family was of a different “culture” than Guru Gobind Singh ji’s worldly family. All of the Punj Pyare were from different locations. Sikh culture, therefore, is NOT synonymous with Punjabi culture, and Sikh hymns that include customs from Punjabi culture are at the most a spiritual and social commentary of those customs, not an endorsement.
to clarify one additional thing –
it also applies to judgmental attitude, self-righteousness, stigmatizing, ostracizing, exiling, etc, etc. while certain behavior may be anti-sikh, sikhi teaches some pretty common sense values of forgiveness, brotherly love, fraternity, etc. a certain amount of stigma is necessary for any society to function and not descend into organized anarchy or lack of any identity – this is applicable to punjabi and sikh communities. moreover, a family has a right to maintain certain values and thresholds of behavior. but just as ridiculous as a punjabi who practices castism and sexism is the “paka” sikh who is self-righteous and overly judgmental. neither really embodies the universal principles of sikhi to help their fellow man without question, to abide by the golden rule.
Attributing "backward" behaviour to the village is a stereotype that should be condemned at all turns. City, aka Shari, people in India have as many or more social hangups as anyone in a punjabi village.
Attributing “backward” behaviour to the village is a stereotype that should be condemned at all turns. City, aka Shari, people in India have as many or more social hangups as anyone in a punjabi village.
I agree with Kaptaan. In fact female infanticide in Punjab is the highest amongst the "educated" city folk.
I agree with Kaptaan. In fact female infanticide in Punjab is the highest amongst the “educated” city folk.
with that context, i take tremendous pride in a few elements of Punjabi culture, namely the hospitality. many other elements, elements that are not necessarily unique to punjabis, i despise. one is the “pride” in and of itself. this is often most clearly manifested as “jatt sikh” pride. sorry, but as its trumpeted, it’s oxymoronic, castism akin to racism, and yet is a sentiment so proudly held by so many in our community. i don’t say this only because i’m not a jatt (i didn’t even know what jatt/kathri/etc. was until college), i say it because i try to look at it from an objective standpoint, and those attitudes are far more destructive to the Sikh community’s cohesiveness than any other factor. i still just get pissed off every time i hear of a JSF/JSM seeking a JSF/JSM, especially when they are or are from an amritdhari family.
I didn't know that I came from a Jatt background till 4 years ago at age of 28 when somebody kept asking me what my caste was. Then when the person found out my last name, he was happy cause I was a jatt.
I guess I have to blame my parents for not letting me know about my great jatt background.
this applies to female foeticide, general sexism, castism, prevalent racism, ridiculous amounts of gossip, competitiveness within families and others, insularity, lack of education, alcoholism, assholes killing their daughters’ lovers, etc., etc., etc.
I noticed these problems about 6 years ago when I moved to Vancouver and 6 years later these problems are still the same and 6 years from and 6 years after that the same problem will still be here, and I'm worried that more then a few more young punjabi women will lose there lifes and things will still be the same.
this post is misinformed if she feels that the father killed Ajmer Hothi under the influence of social stigma created by his Sikh culture. Sikh culture is in the Sikh scriptures, traditions, and organizations. Sikh culture is Hola Mohalla, and bana, and dtadi vaars, and gatka, and other social habits and customs guided by the Sikh traditions.
This killing was due to punjabi culture and not sikhism. But the sad thing is punjabi culture has taken over sikhism, and some people have trouble telling which is which.
This killing took place in Stockton which is right in the middle of triangle of Bakersfield, Yuba City and the Bay area in Central and Northern Califronia which makes up the biggest punjabi community in the United States, so here it is easier for the community to isolate itself and not intergrate as much into American society and things like family honor still play a big role which played a part in this murder.
But in the rest of the United States the sikh population is spread out and much smaller causing it have to intergate more into American society. Meaning that punjabi sikh's who grow up in places like Minnesota, Iowa or Utah grow up different then those in places like London, Vancouver or Central California.
with that context, i take tremendous pride in a few elements of Punjabi culture, namely the hospitality. many other elements, elements that are not necessarily unique to punjabis, i despise. one is the “pride” in and of itself. this is often most clearly manifested as “jatt sikh” pride. sorry, but as its trumpeted, it’s oxymoronic, castism akin to racism, and yet is a sentiment so proudly held by so many in our community. i don’t say this only because i’m not a jatt (i didn’t even know what jatt/kathri/etc. was until college), i say it because i try to look at it from an objective standpoint, and those attitudes are far more destructive to the Sikh community’s cohesiveness than any other factor. i still just get pissed off every time i hear of a JSF/JSM seeking a JSF/JSM, especially when they are or are from an amritdhari family.
I didn’t know that I came from a Jatt background till 4 years ago at age of 28 when somebody kept asking me what my caste was. Then when the person found out my last name, he was happy cause I was a jatt.
I guess I have to blame my parents for not letting me know about my great jatt background.
this applies to female foeticide, general sexism, castism, prevalent racism, ridiculous amounts of gossip, competitiveness within families and others, insularity, lack of education, alcoholism, assholes killing their daughters’ lovers, etc., etc., etc.
I noticed these problems about 6 years ago when I moved to Vancouver and 6 years later these problems are still the same and 6 years from and 6 years after that the same problem will still be here, and I’m worried that more then a few more young punjabi women will lose there lifes and things will still be the same.
this post is misinformed if she feels that the father killed Ajmer Hothi under the influence of social stigma created by his Sikh culture. Sikh culture is in the Sikh scriptures, traditions, and organizations. Sikh culture is Hola Mohalla, and bana, and dtadi vaars, and gatka, and other social habits and customs guided by the Sikh traditions.
This killing was due to punjabi culture and not sikhism. But the sad thing is punjabi culture has taken over sikhism, and some people have trouble telling which is which.
This killing took place in Stockton which is right in the middle of triangle of Bakersfield, Yuba City and the Bay area in Central and Northern Califronia which makes up the biggest punjabi community in the United States, so here it is easier for the community to isolate itself and not intergrate as much into American society and things like family honor still play a big role which played a part in this murder.
But in the rest of the United States the sikh population is spread out and much smaller causing it have to intergate more into American society. Meaning that punjabi sikh’s who grow up in places like Minnesota, Iowa or Utah grow up different then those in places like London, Vancouver or Central California.
I love Central California!
I love Central California!
Kaptaan and Blue,
Hear, hear! Exactly … thank you for bringing this nuance to the conversation!
funny that it's only the "pindh" comment, an extremely tangential, equivocal point mentioned in passing and taken slightly out of context, that has elicited such grand discussion and back patting. but glad we're all clear now.