“Punjabiye Zubane”
I have noticed these past couple of weeks that discussions about the value of Punjabi have become more prevalent. The issue of maintaining our “ma boli” is constantly on our minds and manifests in our everyday lives. However, with the onset of many Vaisakhi melas, Nagar Kirtans, and of course Satinder Sartaj concerts the discussions are heightened.
Recently, on Jus Punjabi’s “Aaj Da Mudda” show, there was an insightful conversation about pronunciation and the longevity of Punjabi. The host and guest discussed how East Punjabi’s pronunciation of words have changed (we are taking the easier route). Despite this change in pronunciation, the guest highlighted how Punjabi has survived the most turbulent of times (e.g. the state language during Maharaja Ranjit Singh’s rule was Farsi and the 1960’s division of India Punjab).
As he spoke, I was reminded of Gurdas Mann’s song “Punjabiye Zubane” (listen below). This song captures how the strength of the Punjabi language was developed over time. It is this strength that has allowed it to survive. I am left wondering if we 1) have the will and 2) the capacity to nurture and love this language like others have done in the past. Can we help nurture the strength of Punjabi in today’s context? What do you think?
358 Responses to ““Punjabiye Zubane””
@Dosanjh
Perhaps you can give an example of tonemes from Punjabi language? I am no linguist but for a language to be tonal, two words have to be written the same but spoken differently for two different meanings. As far as I know, Punjabi is written exactly like it is spoken – "adhak", "horha", "kanaurha", etc. make sure that we are bale to write it the way we speak it.
An example will definitely be helpful, especially as comparison with Chinese languages seems misplaced.
as Gurmukhi is phonetic alphabet the two words will be distinctly written, but say if the latin alphabet was applied as westerners use it, Horse, Whip and Bitter will all be spelt Kora, so I agree with Dosanjh
@Dosanjh
Perhaps you can give an example of tonemes from Punjabi language? I am no linguist but for a language to be tonal, two words have to be written the same but spoken differently for two different meanings. As far as I know, Punjabi is written exactly like it is spoken – "adhak", "horha", "kanaurha", etc. make sure that we are bale to write it the way we speak it.
An example will definitely be helpful, especially as comparison with Chinese languages seems misplaced.
as Gurmukhi is phonetic alphabet the two words will be distinctly written, but say if the latin alphabet was applied as westerners use it, Horse, Whip and Bitter will all be spelt Kora, so I agree with Dosanjh
Akali Phoola Singh, Please note that I’m just an ordinary cockney fella that has a great pride and interest in Punjabi but nowhere near the level of knowledge that you possess. If anything, I’d like to learn from your thoughts…..so I plead maafi if what I think to be correct is infact incorrect. You mentioned the fact that a tonal language must be written the same but spoken differently. If thats the case then my theory will probably fall flat on its face, but my examples would be thus :
With the assumtion that there are 3 tones in Punjabi:
1) low tone = kohra = horse
middle tone = kora = whip
high tone = khora = leper
2) low tone = cha = peep
middle tone = cha = desire
high tone = cha = tea
These words may well be spelt differently but if they were said in one standard flat tone then then all 3 words would be confused togather. It is only the tone in which they are said that tells us what the person is trying to tell us.
Dosanjh you are correct Punjabi is the only Tonal language and your examples of whip, horse and bitter are perfect. The reason why it may be Like Chinese is that unlike the rest if India, Punjab has had many races from Huns, Greeks, Mogols to the Goray come and settle over centuries, thus adding to its particular development..yes Akali ji, Punjabi is written as it is Pronounced, but to a Non Punjabi, the 3 words listed will sound the same, but tonally, when spoken, are very different…so both of you are correct
@ Dosanjh
I am no linguist either, and like you only a student. I think the point you are trying to make is valid only when we are trying to transliterate Punjabi in Roman or some other script – "ghar" in Gurmukhi or Shahmukhi would sound different from "ghar" in Hindi or Braj. It is the limitations of Roman script that make Punjabi a tonal language. And this limitation is easily overcome through properly defined diacritical marks – if we are trying to learn Punjabi through the script of another language. To be perfectly honest, I do not see any sense in taking an easier way out in today's world when one can download the sound files from internet and hear how a native would pronounce a sound peculiar to any particular language.
Akali Phoola Singh, Please note that I’m just an ordinary cockney fella that has a great pride and interest in Punjabi but nowhere near the level of knowledge that you possess. If anything, I’d like to learn from your thoughts…..so I plead maafi if what I think to be correct is infact incorrect. You mentioned the fact that a tonal language must be written the same but spoken differently. If thats the case then my theory will probably fall flat on its face, but my examples would be thus :
With the assumtion that there are 3 tones in Punjabi:
1) low tone = kohra = horse
middle tone = kora = whip
high tone = khora = leper
2) low tone = cha = peep
middle tone = cha = desire
high tone = cha = tea
These words may well be spelt differently but if they were said in one standard flat tone then then all 3 words would be confused togather. It is only the tone in which they are said that tells us what the person is trying to tell us.
Dosanjh you are correct Punjabi is the only Tonal language and your examples of whip, horse and bitter are perfect. The reason why it may be Like Chinese is that unlike the rest if India, Punjab has had many races from Huns, Greeks, Mogols to the Goray come and settle over centuries, thus adding to its particular development..yes Akali ji, Punjabi is written as it is Pronounced, but to a Non Punjabi, the 3 words listed will sound the same, but tonally, when spoken, are very different…so both of you are correct
@ Dosanjh
I am no linguist either, and like you only a student. I think the point you are trying to make is valid only when we are trying to transliterate Punjabi in Roman or some other script – "ghar" in Gurmukhi or Shahmukhi would sound different from "ghar" in Hindi or Braj. It is the limitations of Roman script that make Punjabi a tonal language. And this limitation is easily overcome through properly defined diacritical marks – if we are trying to learn Punjabi through the script of another language. To be perfectly honest, I do not see any sense in taking an easier way out in today's world when one can download the sound files from internet and hear how a native would pronounce a sound peculiar to any particular language.
@Dosanjh
The advantage of Gurmukhi alphabet over others is that it is ordered according to the part of the mouth used to speak a letter. Excepting the first and the last line of Gurmukhi alphabet, each line contains only letters which use the same parts of the mouth, thus making it easier to learn and remember. It was this order which was later also adopted by the Devnagri script. It is also important to remember that Guru Angad gave the Gurmukhi alphabet this order as Guru Nanak's "Patti" bani uses a different order as does Bhagat Kabir's "Patti" which has more letters than the Gurmukhi alphabet.
@Dosanjh
The advantage of Gurmukhi alphabet over others is that it is ordered according to the part of the mouth used to speak a letter. Excepting the first and the last line of Gurmukhi alphabet, each line contains only letters which use the same parts of the mouth, thus making it easier to learn and remember. It was this order which was later also adopted by the Devnagri script. It is also important to remember that Guru Angad gave the Gurmukhi alphabet this order as Guru Nanak's "Patti" bani uses a different order as does Bhagat Kabir's "Patti" which has more letters than the Gurmukhi alphabet.
@ Roop
I read some of your poetry from your collection "Beghar Baagh". Some of it is wonderfully quirky. Without taking anything away from your writings – you do need a good editor. Uniqueness of an idiom is only part of the merit of any creative work. If you are not taking care to follow the basic rules of the language, it can create an unwelcome impression that any writer will be hard-pressed to overcome. For example, each cook is at liberty to put as much chillies in daal as they wish or add onions, garlic, cummin seeds, etc to give it their unique flavour. But if one tinkers with the salt content, all embellishments come to nought. And if one gets a stone in a mouthfull of daal it destroys the reputation of the cook even if it was the best daal one ever tasted.
I agree with you..that is my fundamental problem, as Punjabi is my 2nd language, I can't see woood for the trees re certain errors, but none of the so called editors ever fix it, they expect the writer to do it ( which is never the case in western publishing), which is why ..Main maar khandaa..
@Akali re Beghar Baagh…A guy said he would fix it 7 months ago. He still hasn't, I can't afford to pay anymore, and why should I? So I am stuck with the version you have read published by Chetna Parkashan, with the salt missing…As it is only short poetry, would you or someone else help?
I am happy to do it piece-meal – it does not need too much work, just phrasal turns and spelling errors and a little bit of grammar tweaking.
theek hai, tusi mainu rupsdhillon@yahoo.co.uk tay e-mail bhej do
Chunga
Roop
@ Roop
I read some of your poetry from your collection "Beghar Baagh". Some of it is wonderfully quirky. Without taking anything away from your writings – you do need a good editor. Uniqueness of an idiom is only part of the merit of any creative work. If you are not taking care to follow the basic rules of the language, it can create an unwelcome impression that any writer will be hard-pressed to overcome. For example, each cook is at liberty to put as much chillies in daal as they wish or add onions, garlic, cummin seeds, etc to give it their unique flavour. But if one tinkers with the salt content, all embellishments come to nought. And if one gets a stone in a mouthfull of daal it destroys the reputation of the cook even if it was the best daal one ever tasted.
I agree with you..that is my fundamental problem, as Punjabi is my 2nd language, I can't see woood for the trees re certain errors, but none of the so called editors ever fix it, they expect the writer to do it ( which is never the case in western publishing), which is why ..Main maar khandaa..
@Akali re Beghar Baagh…A guy said he would fix it 7 months ago. He still hasn't, I can't afford to pay anymore, and why should I? So I am stuck with the version you have read published by Chetna Parkashan, with the salt missing…As it is only short poetry, would you or someone else help?
I am happy to do it piece-meal – it does not need too much work, just phrasal turns and spelling errors and a little bit of grammar tweaking.
theek hai, tusi mainu rupsdhillon@yahoo.co.uk tay e-mail bhej do
Chunga
Roop
@Akali Ji
For example, I really want to ensure this kahani is full proof correct before publishing, and have asked many people on this website to help me fix it, highlight errors…I get lots of vaah vaahs, but only a few suggest.
Would you be willing to help fix it?
http://www.punjabizm.com/forums-mulakat-whole-dra…
Again, I am happy to shine the torch of my editorial experience on your story
Where do you want me to send the finished piece? If you wish I can post it here.
please send it to rupsdhillon@yahoo.co.uk
Thanks
@Akali Ji
For example, I really want to ensure this kahani is full proof correct before publishing, and have asked many people on this website to help me fix it, highlight errors…I get lots of vaah vaahs, but only a few suggest.
Would you be willing to help fix it?
http://www.punjabizm.com/forums-mulakat-whole-dra…
Again, I am happy to shine the torch of my editorial experience on your story
Where do you want me to send the finished piece? If you wish I can post it here.
please send it to rupsdhillon@yahoo.co.uk
Thanks
Sher Singh mainoo teray comments disday nahin
Oh Sher Kumar hai, Singh (Sikh) nahin. He's into making fool with cheap tactics of trying to sound and hide as a Sikh.
@ Sher aka RSS Sanghi: Why don't you have the guts to say that you are a specially concerned Hindu Nationalist? Come on don't be shy or embarrased of who you are. Just say plain and simple, that's it, no one is going after you as we Sikhs are not mudslingers like Hindus.
HS
I am a Hindu born and i have said that umpteen times. why do you want me to paint with saffron and make me feel as a 'Hindu nationalist'? as far as nationalism is concerned, yes I am a nationalist. do you have any problems with that? how about you, are you comfortable being a sikh bigot and punjabi chauvinist? every other post of your reeks of hatred and misplaced supremacism. You are one of those extremist tat khalsa (even though u may be a sehajdhari yourself) morons who have nothing much to do but vitiate sikhi as nanak preached and vomit venom every time you write.
as far as kumar/singh issue is concerned, there are far more 'singhs' among Hindus than sikhism. so?
have guts to face the truth H S and lelarn to question whatever is preached by the likes of bagris and Bhindranwalas.
good luck
Sher
Sher, H S seems to have hit a raw nerve
"…why do you want me to paint with saffron and make me feel as a 'Hindu nationalist'? as far as nationalism is concerned, yes I am a nationalist"
Are you a Hindu nationalist? Or some other type of nationalist?
Please elaborate on this point, I'm extremely interested to hear your stance on this in more detail.
Regards
Calling Nationalist in one form or the other is nothing more than coating it with a different paint. The surface below remains the same. The core ideology of Nationalism, not patriotism, is to make a uniform society from all respects and protect the integrity of the nation by any means. Call it the neo-fascism. Hitler is still alive. In Hindustan. Not 1, 2 or 3, but countless. Call it a Hitler Nation with all Hitlers. THE EUPHEMISM FOR WORD HITLER IS NATIONALIST IN INDIA. IF SOMEONE DOESN'T UNDERSTANDS THIS, THEN YOUTUBE.COM IS THE TEACHER. NOW EYES ARE EYES, UNLIKE OPINION, WHETHER THOSE VIDEOS WERE TAKEN BY MUSLIMS, SIKHS OR CHRISTIANS OR HINDUS. Also if you can Sher, show me videos of Sikhs comparable, in vitriolic content, magnitude, quantity and warning of genocides, to those of Hindus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x6fs1IpSDk
"Jinna chir assi 50000 Hindu qatal nahi kar dainde…saah nahin lavangey" (Until we kill 50000 Hindus, we will not rest) threatened Ajaib Singh Bagri right from Madison Square New York. "Khoon da badla khoon" and then they did 'Kanishka" killing hundreds of innocents. Bagri is free today enjoying khalsaji da laad pyaar….and heaps of money.
This is what you were asking for?
Now, can you show me ONE video of a Hindu leader saying ANYTHING against Sikhs or sikhism?
Sher
Series of praise for your kinds H S:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/sikh-politics-c…
and do not forget to watch the videos links provided with the article
http://www.cbc.ca/mrl3/8752/news/features/milewsk…
Why so much hatred against Hindus H S? asking you as you are one such hate-monger who would like to burn Hindus and maybe re-enact 100 kanishkas.
Sher
Did you take lesson in comprehension? If you miss the details, then probably you are missing quite a lot: I SAID COMPARABLE IN MAGNITUDE, QUANTITY…I HAVE SEEN THIS VIDEO BEFORE…THAT IS WHY I AM NOT STUPID ENOUGH TO ASK YOU SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE MAGNITUDE, NUMBER OF VIDEOS…IS THERE ANY OTHER VIDEO APART FROM THIS YOU COULD FIND? NO THERE ISN'T ANY. AND MIND YOU THIS WASN'T ANY COLD BLOODED SPEECH, IT WAS AFTER INDIAN ARMY STORMED DARBAR SAHIB AND AKAL TAKHT. WILL INDIAN ARMY EVER STORM VAISHNO-DEVI OR NUMEROUS OF YOUR HOLY PLACES, EVEN IF TERRORISTS WERE HOLED UP INSIDE? NEVER!!! THEY COULDN'T EVEN STORM THE TAJ PALACE HOTEL IN MUMBAI, LEAVE ASIDE EVEN THINKING ON ABOVE TERMS. THE LIST OF HYPOCRISY AND DOUBLE STANDARDS OF YOU NATIONALISTS JUST GOES ON AND ON…
Regarding your question about video against Sikhs, well I am not so narrow minded that I will speak of atrocities against minorities and leave Muslims and Christians apart. Your holy figures and leaders are all products of your mother organization RSS meant to holler 'kill' em all – Muslims, Christians!!!! Sikhs are also in line now. Remember Varun Gandhi 'with his hoarse cries of 'cut those anti-national hands, we will kill all of them'…well you must have also heard about those speeches from your Hindu ministers about killing 2 crore of population to keep the integrity of the Hindu-stan. When a tree falls, the earth is bound to shake and so on and on…you live in your own world Sher…just come out of your narrow mind and have the courage to accept the harsh truth against your community…there so many proofs of systematic elimination of Sikhs in India, that this comment portion is small for that…everyone knows how govt of India ordered press black out during the Operation Blue Star and the 1984 genocide…you're living in a Hindu-world, so your horizon is limited till that…your Hindu world wont let you see world outside of Hinduness….enough said you staunchly bigoted Hindu Nationalist!!!1
…IS THERE ANY OTHER VIDEO APART FROM THIS YOU COULD FIND?
Hahahaha HS you are …amazing.
i made a mistake by asking you to come out from under the rock. go back son, crawl under the rock and go on hating Hindus and whosoever. one more time, i dont give a damn to sikh psychopaths and to their Hindu counterparts too.
Gujarat riots are as condemnable as Godra train massacre which preceded the riots.
u have failed in taking up so many of my challneges but now i give you an easy one – have guts to condemn those sikh loonies who perpetrated Kanishka atrocity.
we have experienced the ugly side of you Harpreet Singh (if that is really who you are)through your perverse writings. redeem yourself by condemning those zallads.
Sher
Killing of innocents, whoever did it, in kanishka bombing is reprehensible and crime of the high order. However I don't conceded that it was done by Sikhs because there are lots of doubts and controversies surrounding it…just as there are controversies surrounding Godhra train massacre…particularly so because Indian govt and their secret agents and merciless butchers with no humanity but NATIONALISM in them…however THERE ARE NO CONTROVERSIES OR DOUBTS ASSOCIATED WITH GENOCIDE OF MUSLIMS AND SIKHS BY HINDUS..AND MASSACRE OF CHRISTIANS TOO…it wont get clearer than this!!!!
I have realized you are indeed a staunch bigot who throws in some cosmetic words to show that you are wise and see both sides of the story…
however any Indian Sikh (not those like Manmohan Singh), Muslim and Christian can tell you how concocted your comments are to absolve Hindus the GREATEST MASSACRES they planned in whole of last century. JUST READ THE REAL UN-HINDUISED HISTORY AND COUNT HOW MANY MASSACRES AND GENOCIDES YOUR HINDU-STAN HAVE COMMITTED. ENOUGH. PERIOD.
Harpreet Singh Denialji,
what can I say now. you are true to your name in complete denial. Thousands of pages have written and everyone blames that terrorist hyena Talwinder Parmar, Rayat (convicted), Ajaib ali bagri and RMalik for the Kanishka carnage. Bagri vowed to kill 50000 hindus publicly yet still you would not believe. hundreds of bhindran hate speeches available online and still you would not believe. tens of thousands innocents (both Hindus and Sikhs) killed by your terrorists, heaps and heaps of evidence (inc khali dogs claiming responsibility for heinous massacres) still you are in denial.
also, i am beginning to doubt your religious affinities. there is not one mention of how Muslims in pakistan are killing Sikhs (forget their Hindu brethren with whom they have v close ties), levying 'Jaziya' on YOUR co-religionists in this age (!).
"JUST READ THE REAL UN-HINDUISED HISTORY…" I am more than willing to read such versions provided they are from some 'authentic' sources and not Khali-Islamic websites.
For a change, try giving citations to back your absolute rubbish comments.
Sher
@ Gidarh
1. Kanishka was the work of Indian intelligence agents – for more Sikhs died in that bombing than Hindus.
2. Prof V N Tiwari, with Giani Zail Singh helped set up "Dal Khalsa" the first armed group that demanded Khalistan in 1978-79. Tiwari's PA (Harsimran Singh) headed "Dal Khalsa" and now lives openly in Anandpur Sahib running a private school – go figure. Tiwari was assassinated and media blamed Bhindranwale. Bhindranwale called Mrs Tiwari to say that he had nothing to do with Tiwari's killing. Who then killed Tiwari??
3. Surinder Kumar Billa, who founded Shiv Sena in Punjab is pictured in a 1989 issue of Mainstream magazine with young men looking like Sikhs. Billa's statement says that he is training "desh bhagats" who look like Sikhs but who will do such acts that give a bad name to "Khalistanis". Go figure what atrocities on Sikhs were committed by these "Billa-bhagats".
@Gidarh
4. Anand Patwardhan's doco "Ram ke Nam" on demolition of Babri Masjid, has this "Ram sewak" saying that just as he and his ilk had taken up arms in Punjab and defeated "Khalistanis" they are now going to defeat the Muslims. Go figure what atrocities on Sikhs were committed by these "sewaks" of "ram".
5. Many more Sikhs died in Punjab from 1978 to 1995 than Hindus – so who was terrorized and who were the terrorists? People like Gobind Ram and Sawarn Singh Ghotna became SSPs from mere constables (an impossibility under IPS rules governing Police hierarchy) in return for killing hundreds of Sikhs in false encounters and then annihilating their families under the pretext that these family members posed a threat because they carried an urge for revenge.
6. How many of "Billa-bhagats" or "ram-sewaks' were arrested or killed in Punjab by Indian government? None!
@Gidarh
7. And what about the Hindu terrorist cells uncovered by Karkare? Here is how Karkare and his associate officers were killed: “Somebody who knew both the ends, sent him (Karkare) in the wrong direction otherwise why should he have gone to Cama hospital? He should have gone to Taj, Oberoi or Nariman House. He went to such a place where there was nothing compared to what was happening in these three places. He went to the Cama hospital on the basis of a phone call. Who is that person who made the phone call? This should be probed….Karkare found that there are non-Muslims involved in acts of terrorism… Any person going to the roots of Terror has always been the target… Superficially speaking, they (the terrorists) had no reason to kill Karkare. Whether he (Karkare) was a victim of terrorism or terrorism plus something, I do not know…
your BS about absolving pakis from 26/11 and karkare assassination is just that -BS.
…."I do not know" then why the hell you are posting such bull crap here. go figure and then come back here with verifiable citations. until then, GET A LIFE.
sher
Hahahaha
laughing more out of frustration than weird posts of this HC.
Ram sewaks…atrocities on sikhs.
idiot HC not a single former terrorist has ever complained that Ram sewaks or any other Hindu jathebandi, committed any atrocity on them. the story is totally opposite : sikh terrorists killing ram bhakats.
Many more sikhs…. thats true. sikh loonies killed innocent sikhs. thats a very well documented fact.
how many Billa bhagats…
do some bloody research. what you have written here in the last three posts is BS.
Sher
Harpreet Singh got shortened to H S and has now converted to…
whatever i better stick to reply to largely un-substantiated posts here.
Kanishka: I have provided too many citations inc Ajaib S Bagri video and CBC in-depth articles. Reyat already convicted and undergoing punishment. he has never admitted that he is an Indian intel agent. same with those two hyenas Bagri and Malik.
Prof V N Tiwari , to link him with Dal Khalsa… only a mental retard can do it. HC is an exception to this.
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main26.asp?filename=…
In this article published in well respected magazine (edited by a sikh btw) Tehelka Manjinder Bitta openly blamed Harminder Singh Gill a pet dog of Bhindran for kiling V N Tiwari who was married to a Jat lady (MAnish Tiwari senior Congress leader today is their son). Yes, one Harsimran worked in the Punjabi department under V N Tiwari who dismissed him for his links with terrorists.
your 'go figure' about billa is not worth having a 'go' as sikh atvadis committed atrocities against innocent sikhs and Hindus. the list of the sikh terrorist outfits is too long. do not try to discredit sikh terrorists as they are v proud of their black deeds eg killing unarmed innocents, rapes, loot, etc. yu are talking about one billa pic there are thousands of pix where bhindran and his thugs are shown carrying illegal arms smuggled from pakistan,
go figure what these weapons were used for. certainly not kabootarbazi. there are hundreds of bhindran speeches preaching nothing but hatred and violence. go figure what is the divine message in his speech about killing 5000 hindus if Taksal bus was not released immediately…
You did not have any credibility so my citation would not affect your proficiency to churn out crap.
Sher
Disgusting Harpreet Singh,
nailing one more of your lies with conclusive evidence:
"Kanishka …. – for more Sikhs died in that bombing than Hindus."
Anyone can sift through the victims' list avbl through this link:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/airindia/victim…
my apologies to all victims' families as i had to use this list to expose one of the rabid extremist hyena.
Ahmed, Sarah, 8.
Alexander, Simon jr., 9.
Anantarman, Rupa, 12.
Bedi, Jatin, 9.
Bery, Aditya, 4.
Bery, Priya, 7.
Berry, Sharad, 16.
Bhalla, Dalip, 7
Puri, Amit, 5.
Quadri,Rubina, 8.
Quadri, Arishiya, 3
Seth, Alpana, 8.
Seth, Ahkur, 1.
These are some of the names of the children perished in the blast masterminded by khalistani swines.
How could you be so insensitive Harpreet (or whosoever you are)?
If there is any God and if there is any truth in the Karma theory, I am pretty sure these children would be there to conduct their own trial when you kick the bucket.
Sher
Not me.
Sher Singh mainoo teray comments disday nahin
Oh Sher Kumar hai, Singh (Sikh) nahin. He's into making fool with cheap tactics of trying to sound and hide as a Sikh.
@ Sher aka RSS Sanghi: Why don't you have the guts to say that you are a specially concerned Hindu Nationalist? Come on don't be shy or embarrased of who you are. Just say plain and simple, that's it, no one is going after you as we Sikhs are not mudslingers like Hindus.
HS
I am a Hindu born and i have said that umpteen times. why do you want me to paint with saffron and make me feel as a 'Hindu nationalist'? as far as nationalism is concerned, yes I am a nationalist. do you have any problems with that? how about you, are you comfortable being a sikh bigot and punjabi chauvinist? every other post of your reeks of hatred and misplaced supremacism. You are one of those extremist tat khalsa (even though u may be a sehajdhari yourself) morons who have nothing much to do but vitiate sikhi as nanak preached and vomit venom every time you write.
as far as kumar/singh issue is concerned, there are far more 'singhs' among Hindus than sikhism. so?
have guts to face the truth H S and lelarn to question whatever is preached by the likes of bagris and Bhindranwalas.
good luck
Sher
Sher, H S seems to have hit a raw nerve
"…why do you want me to paint with saffron and make me feel as a 'Hindu nationalist'? as far as nationalism is concerned, yes I am a nationalist"
Are you a Hindu nationalist? Or some other type of nationalist?
Please elaborate on this point, I'm extremely interested to hear your stance on this in more detail.
Regards
Calling Nationalist in one form or the other is nothing more than coating it with a different paint. The surface below remains the same. The core ideology of Nationalism, not patriotism, is to make a uniform society from all respects and protect the integrity of the nation by any means. Call it the neo-fascism. Hitler is still alive. In Hindustan. Not 1, 2 or 3, but countless. Call it a Hitler Nation with all Hitlers. THE EUPHEMISM FOR WORD HITLER IS NATIONALIST IN INDIA. IF SOMEONE DOESN'T UNDERSTANDS THIS, THEN YOUTUBE.COM IS THE TEACHER. NOW EYES ARE EYES, UNLIKE OPINION, WHETHER THOSE VIDEOS WERE TAKEN BY MUSLIMS, SIKHS OR CHRISTIANS OR HINDUS. Also if you can Sher, show me videos of Sikhs comparable, in vitriolic content, magnitude, quantity and warning of genocides, to those of Hindus.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x6fs1IpSDk
"Jinna chir assi 50000 Hindu qatal nahi kar dainde…saah nahin lavangey" (Until we kill 50000 Hindus, we will not rest) threatened Ajaib Singh Bagri right from Madison Square New York. "Khoon da badla khoon" and then they did 'Kanishka" killing hundreds of innocents. Bagri is free today enjoying khalsaji da laad pyaar….and heaps of money.
This is what you were asking for?
Now, can you show me ONE video of a Hindu leader saying ANYTHING against Sikhs or sikhism?
Sher
Series of praise for your kinds H S:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/sikh-politics-c…
and do not forget to watch the videos links provided with the article
http://www.cbc.ca/mrl3/8752/news/features/milewsk…
Why so much hatred against Hindus H S? asking you as you are one such hate-monger who would like to burn Hindus and maybe re-enact 100 kanishkas.
Sher
Did you take lesson in comprehension? If you miss the details, then probably you are missing quite a lot: I SAID COMPARABLE IN MAGNITUDE, QUANTITY…I HAVE SEEN THIS VIDEO BEFORE…THAT IS WHY I AM NOT STUPID ENOUGH TO ASK YOU SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE MAGNITUDE, NUMBER OF VIDEOS…IS THERE ANY OTHER VIDEO APART FROM THIS YOU COULD FIND? NO THERE ISN'T ANY. AND MIND YOU THIS WASN'T ANY COLD BLOODED SPEECH, IT WAS AFTER INDIAN ARMY STORMED DARBAR SAHIB AND AKAL TAKHT. WILL INDIAN ARMY EVER STORM VAISHNO-DEVI OR NUMEROUS OF YOUR HOLY PLACES, EVEN IF TERRORISTS WERE HOLED UP INSIDE? NEVER!!! THEY COULDN'T EVEN STORM THE TAJ PALACE HOTEL IN MUMBAI, LEAVE ASIDE EVEN THINKING ON ABOVE TERMS. THE LIST OF HYPOCRISY AND DOUBLE STANDARDS OF YOU NATIONALISTS JUST GOES ON AND ON…
Regarding your question about video against Sikhs, well I am not so narrow minded that I will speak of atrocities against minorities and leave Muslims and Christians apart. Your holy figures and leaders are all products of your mother organization RSS meant to holler 'kill' em all – Muslims, Christians!!!! Sikhs are also in line now. Remember Varun Gandhi 'with his hoarse cries of 'cut those anti-national hands, we will kill all of them'…well you must have also heard about those speeches from your Hindu ministers about killing 2 crore of population to keep the integrity of the Hindu-stan. When a tree falls, the earth is bound to shake and so on and on…you live in your own world Sher…just come out of your narrow mind and have the courage to accept the harsh truth against your community…there so many proofs of systematic elimination of Sikhs in India, that this comment portion is small for that…everyone knows how govt of India ordered press black out during the Operation Blue Star and the 1984 genocide…you're living in a Hindu-world, so your horizon is limited till that…your Hindu world wont let you see world outside of Hinduness….enough said you staunchly bigoted Hindu Nationalist!!!1
…IS THERE ANY OTHER VIDEO APART FROM THIS YOU COULD FIND?
Hahahaha HS you are …amazing.
i made a mistake by asking you to come out from under the rock. go back son, crawl under the rock and go on hating Hindus and whosoever. one more time, i dont give a damn to sikh psychopaths and to their Hindu counterparts too.
Gujarat riots are as condemnable as Godra train massacre which preceded the riots.
u have failed in taking up so many of my challneges but now i give you an easy one – have guts to condemn those sikh loonies who perpetrated Kanishka atrocity.
we have experienced the ugly side of you Harpreet Singh (if that is really who you are)through your perverse writings. redeem yourself by condemning those zallads.
Sher
Killing of innocents, whoever did it, in kanishka bombing is reprehensible and crime of the high order. However I don't conceded that it was done by Sikhs because there are lots of doubts and controversies surrounding it…just as there are controversies surrounding Godhra train massacre…particularly so because Indian govt and their secret agents and merciless butchers with no humanity but NATIONALISM in them…however THERE ARE NO CONTROVERSIES OR DOUBTS ASSOCIATED WITH GENOCIDE OF MUSLIMS AND SIKHS BY HINDUS..AND MASSACRE OF CHRISTIANS TOO…it wont get clearer than this!!!!
I have realized you are indeed a staunch bigot who throws in some cosmetic words to show that you are wise and see both sides of the story…
however any Indian Sikh (not those like Manmohan Singh), Muslim and Christian can tell you how concocted your comments are to absolve Hindus the GREATEST MASSACRES they planned in whole of last century. JUST READ THE REAL UN-HINDUISED HISTORY AND COUNT HOW MANY MASSACRES AND GENOCIDES YOUR HINDU-STAN HAVE COMMITTED. ENOUGH. PERIOD.
Harpreet Singh Denialji,
what can I say now. you are true to your name in complete denial. Thousands of pages have written and everyone blames that terrorist hyena Talwinder Parmar, Rayat (convicted), Ajaib ali bagri and RMalik for the Kanishka carnage. Bagri vowed to kill 50000 hindus publicly yet still you would not believe. hundreds of bhindran hate speeches available online and still you would not believe. tens of thousands innocents (both Hindus and Sikhs) killed by your terrorists, heaps and heaps of evidence (inc khali dogs claiming responsibility for heinous massacres) still you are in denial.
also, i am beginning to doubt your religious affinities. there is not one mention of how Muslims in pakistan are killing Sikhs (forget their Hindu brethren with whom they have v close ties), levying 'Jaziya' on YOUR co-religionists in this age (!).
"JUST READ THE REAL UN-HINDUISED HISTORY…" I am more than willing to read such versions provided they are from some 'authentic' sources and not Khali-Islamic websites.
For a change, try giving citations to back your absolute rubbish comments.
Sher
@ Gidarh
1. Kanishka was the work of Indian intelligence agents – for more Sikhs died in that bombing than Hindus.
2. Prof V N Tiwari, with Giani Zail Singh helped set up "Dal Khalsa" the first armed group that demanded Khalistan in 1978-79. Tiwari's PA (Harsimran Singh) headed "Dal Khalsa" and now lives openly in Anandpur Sahib running a private school – go figure. Tiwari was assassinated and media blamed Bhindranwale. Bhindranwale called Mrs Tiwari to say that he had nothing to do with Tiwari's killing. Who then killed Tiwari??
3. Surinder Kumar Billa, who founded Shiv Sena in Punjab is pictured in a 1989 issue of Mainstream magazine with young men looking like Sikhs. Billa's statement says that he is training "desh bhagats" who look like Sikhs but who will do such acts that give a bad name to "Khalistanis". Go figure what atrocities on Sikhs were committed by these "Billa-bhagats".
@Gidarh
4. Anand Patwardhan's doco "Ram ke Nam" on demolition of Babri Masjid, has this "Ram sewak" saying that just as he and his ilk had taken up arms in Punjab and defeated "Khalistanis" they are now going to defeat the Muslims. Go figure what atrocities on Sikhs were committed by these "sewaks" of "ram".
5. Many more Sikhs died in Punjab from 1978 to 1995 than Hindus – so who was terrorized and who were the terrorists? People like Gobind Ram and Sawarn Singh Ghotna became SSPs from mere constables (an impossibility under IPS rules governing Police hierarchy) in return for killing hundreds of Sikhs in false encounters and then annihilating their families under the pretext that these family members posed a threat because they carried an urge for revenge.
6. How many of "Billa-bhagats" or "ram-sewaks' were arrested or killed in Punjab by Indian government? None!
@Gidarh
7. And what about the Hindu terrorist cells uncovered by Karkare? Here is how Karkare and his associate officers were killed: “Somebody who knew both the ends, sent him (Karkare) in the wrong direction otherwise why should he have gone to Cama hospital? He should have gone to Taj, Oberoi or Nariman House. He went to such a place where there was nothing compared to what was happening in these three places. He went to the Cama hospital on the basis of a phone call. Who is that person who made the phone call? This should be probed….Karkare found that there are non-Muslims involved in acts of terrorism… Any person going to the roots of Terror has always been the target… Superficially speaking, they (the terrorists) had no reason to kill Karkare. Whether he (Karkare) was a victim of terrorism or terrorism plus something, I do not know…
your BS about absolving pakis from 26/11 and karkare assassination is just that -BS.
…."I do not know" then why the hell you are posting such bull crap here. go figure and then come back here with verifiable citations. until then, GET A LIFE.
sher
Hahahaha
laughing more out of frustration than weird posts of this HC.
Ram sewaks…atrocities on sikhs.
idiot HC not a single former terrorist has ever complained that Ram sewaks or any other Hindu jathebandi, committed any atrocity on them. the story is totally opposite : sikh terrorists killing ram bhakats.
Many more sikhs…. thats true. sikh loonies killed innocent sikhs. thats a very well documented fact.
how many Billa bhagats…
do some bloody research. what you have written here in the last three posts is BS.
Sher
Harpreet Singh got shortened to H S and has now converted to…
whatever i better stick to reply to largely un-substantiated posts here.
Kanishka: I have provided too many citations inc Ajaib S Bagri video and CBC in-depth articles. Reyat already convicted and undergoing punishment. he has never admitted that he is an Indian intel agent. same with those two hyenas Bagri and Malik.
Prof V N Tiwari , to link him with Dal Khalsa… only a mental retard can do it. HC is an exception to this.
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main26.asp?filename=…
In this article published in well respected magazine (edited by a sikh btw) Tehelka Manjinder Bitta openly blamed Harminder Singh Gill a pet dog of Bhindran for kiling V N Tiwari who was married to a Jat lady (MAnish Tiwari senior Congress leader today is their son). Yes, one Harsimran worked in the Punjabi department under V N Tiwari who dismissed him for his links with terrorists.
your 'go figure' about billa is not worth having a 'go' as sikh atvadis committed atrocities against innocent sikhs and Hindus. the list of the sikh terrorist outfits is too long. do not try to discredit sikh terrorists as they are v proud of their black deeds eg killing unarmed innocents, rapes, loot, etc. yu are talking about one billa pic there are thousands of pix where bhindran and his thugs are shown carrying illegal arms smuggled from pakistan,
go figure what these weapons were used for. certainly not kabootarbazi. there are hundreds of bhindran speeches preaching nothing but hatred and violence. go figure what is the divine message in his speech about killing 5000 hindus if Taksal bus was not released immediately…
You did not have any credibility so my citation would not affect your proficiency to churn out crap.
Sher
Disgusting Harpreet Singh,
nailing one more of your lies with conclusive evidence:
"Kanishka …. – for more Sikhs died in that bombing than Hindus."
Anyone can sift through the victims' list avbl through this link:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/airindia/victim…
my apologies to all victims' families as i had to use this list to expose one of the rabid extremist hyena.
Ahmed, Sarah, 8.
Alexander, Simon jr., 9.
Anantarman, Rupa, 12.
Bedi, Jatin, 9.
Bery, Aditya, 4.
Bery, Priya, 7.
Berry, Sharad, 16.
Bhalla, Dalip, 7
Puri, Amit, 5.
Quadri,Rubina, 8.
Quadri, Arishiya, 3
Seth, Alpana, 8.
Seth, Ahkur, 1.
These are some of the names of the children perished in the blast masterminded by khalistani swines.
How could you be so insensitive Harpreet (or whosoever you are)?
If there is any God and if there is any truth in the Karma theory, I am pretty sure these children would be there to conduct their own trial when you kick the bucket.
Sher
Not me.
Pritpal go to first page and click on replies tp kaursach post.
Thanks..well one thing is clear..it is Sikhs in Ludhiana and Chandigarh today, who choose not to speak in Punjabi
Pritpal go to first page and click on replies tp kaursach post.
Thanks..well one thing is clear..it is Sikhs in Ludhiana and Chandigarh today, who choose not to speak in Punjabi
@APS
The reasons are not exclusive to Punjabi. The current academic ecosystem in Punjab is not conducive to any scholarship. There may be glimmers of good work here and there but they are an exception rather than the rule, and individual driven. At the same time I have seen some superb work being done in Humanities related to Punjab at the premier universities of the west.
Chairs will be for faculty – not students. These faculty members will then write grants, support doctoral/ post-doctoral work under their guidance.
@APS
The reasons are not exclusive to Punjabi. The current academic ecosystem in Punjab is not conducive to any scholarship. There may be glimmers of good work here and there but they are an exception rather than the rule, and individual driven. At the same time I have seen some superb work being done in Humanities related to Punjab at the premier universities of the west.
Chairs will be for faculty – not students. These faculty members will then write grants, support doctoral/ post-doctoral work under their guidance.
http://punjabizm.com/forums-the-hornet-26356-5-1….
Enjoy!
http://punjabizm.com/forums-the-hornet-26356-5-1….
Enjoy!
I think Punjabi can survive anywhere if the parents think it is important enough to teach. Parents sould only speak Punjabi to their kids until at least the age of 5. This should be the wish of every good Sikh parents: My child is going to kindergarten but can't understand a word of English, because he/she only speaks Punjabi. He/she knows no fairy tales only sakhis. Has seen no cartoons only Vismaad Sikh movies.etc.
Thus punjabi can survive even in the west.
Thanks Nimarta for doing your bit and being loyal towards your forefathers' blood for which Sikhi is alive today, in whatever manner or quantity. I appreciate it and thank you from bottom of my heart.
-A non practising and non-Keshdari Sikh. (Believer of only Guru Granth Sahib)
I think Punjabi can survive anywhere if the parents think it is important enough to teach. Parents sould only speak Punjabi to their kids until at least the age of 5. This should be the wish of every good Sikh parents: My child is going to kindergarten but can't understand a word of English, because he/she only speaks Punjabi. He/she knows no fairy tales only sakhis. Has seen no cartoons only Vismaad Sikh movies.etc.
Thus punjabi can survive even in the west.
Thanks Nimarta for doing your bit and being loyal towards your forefathers' blood for which Sikhi is alive today, in whatever manner or quantity. I appreciate it and thank you from bottom of my heart.
-A non practising and non-Keshdari Sikh. (Believer of only Guru Granth Sahib)
H S,
THERE ARE NO CONTROVERSIES OR DOUBTS ASSOCIATED WITH GENOCIDE OF MUSLIMS AND SIKHS BY HINDUS..AND MASSACRE OF CHRISTIANS TOO…it wont get clearer than this!!!!
it wont……. than what? get clearer than your hollow words? you asked for one video I gave you one and then you want one more! in return, I asked for this ONE video showing a Hindu leader saying anything against sikhs or sikhi, YOU FAILED and now you are left with nothing but just words.
Sher
Perhaps you have forgotten the statement by Rajiv Gandhi :- "When a Big tree falls, the earth shakes a little". Making 1984 a State policy for Sikh Genocide.
H S,
THERE ARE NO CONTROVERSIES OR DOUBTS ASSOCIATED WITH GENOCIDE OF MUSLIMS AND SIKHS BY HINDUS..AND MASSACRE OF CHRISTIANS TOO…it wont get clearer than this!!!!
it wont……. than what? get clearer than your hollow words? you asked for one video I gave you one and then you want one more! in return, I asked for this ONE video showing a Hindu leader saying anything against sikhs or sikhi, YOU FAILED and now you are left with nothing but just words.
Sher
Perhaps you have forgotten the statement by Rajiv Gandhi :- "When a Big tree falls, the earth shakes a little". Making 1984 a State policy for Sikh Genocide.
Observer,
There are few points I would like to make here.
Rajiv Gandhi was NOT a Hindu leader and1984 delhi riots were not Hindu-Sikh riots. RG was making this hideous statement as a leader of a political party and also as a distraught son.
secondly, there are over 1000 million hindus in this world and the sikh population should be something around 20 million yet the number of Hindu-bashing leaders is much higher than sikh-hating LEADERS in Hindu community.
i live near a v large 'historic' Gurudwara in punjab and everyday i hear katha vachaks targeting the so-called Hindu high castes in their sermons. in simple words, the hate for Hindus and their religious icons has been gradually institutionalized in sikhism post Op Blue star. Diff story that no gyani would be able to justify such hatred by quoting bani from Granth sahib. As far as I am aware, this hate campaign is a common feature of all Gurudwaras in at least Punjab and adjacent areas.
the extremist, hindu-hating sikh campaigners like Sukhpreet singh Udhoke has not only been giving hate speeches from Punjab but also places like Raipur (Chattisgarh state capital) in central india.
can a hindu zealot hold a function in say amritisar and say even a single word against Sikhs and their beliefs? Here you have sikhs organising whold function dedicated to Hindu-bashing and yet not a single complaint (forget violence) against their small community.
There was a violent protest by sikh extremists against Hindu Jagran samiti (or some other similar name) of swami ashutosh in Ludhiana earlier this year even though the samagam was entirely peaceful and there is no evidence of ashutosh ever saying anything against Sikhi or sikhs. the samagam attended by over 1 lakh people had to be cancelled in the face of violent protests by sikhs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpMG0LMAFqM&fe…
that is just one small example of hindu tolerance.
On the other hand, has anyone heard a single word of criticism for Sikhi, sikh gurus, Granth sahib, etc. by a Hindu preacher. given such a large populace of Hindus, it should be very common.
Mark my words Observer, this is a very dangerous phenomenon which would manifest in violence against Hindus and obvious, sickening retaliation as we witnessed in 1984 in delhi.
in my opinion, Sikh intellectuals and spiritual leaders need to come forward and reverse this hate campaign against everyday Hindus who are a confused lot trying to figure out what crime they have committed against Sikhs or sikhi.
Sher
Sher mian,
First of all let me clarify you one this Rajiv Gandhi at the time of making that statement was elected Prime Minister of India you cannot brush aside simple saying that he was leader of Political Party . After all, this Party ran its campaign targetting Sikh community and won more seats then even PM Jawahar Lal Nehru. During the Lok Sabha elections of 1984, Congress ran a hate filled campaign which included advertisements and posters that had a picture of a Sikh Taxi driver with the caption Kya Aap Ek Sikh Taxi Driver pe Bharosa kar sakte hain ? (Can You trust a Sikh Taxi Driver?). In Amethi, where Maneka Gandhi was contesting against her brother in law Rajiv Gandhi, slogans like Beti hai Sardar ki, Qaum hai Gaddar ki (She is the daughter of a Sikh, a community of traitors) worked and so did the hate filled posters in the rest of the country. One can argue that Rajiv was in a state of shock after her mother’s death and so could not do much to stop the pogrom. But what about the election campaign that followed ? How can one justify the hate filled posters and slogans in the elections that followed ?
2) Sukhpreet singh Udhoke, I have seen video of this man there is no hate speech in them. Come on Sher Mian don't be moronic Idiot. If you really want to know what are hate speeches are then read books of Dr. Bhim Rao Ambedkar on Hinduism and look out for blogs of some Dalit brothers and sisters on their views on Hinduism.
3) Just find out Harbans Lal Khanna, a former M.L.A. and B.J.P.'s Amritsar district president statements against Sikhs and their beliefs? He was shot dead on April 2 1984.
4) Sher Mian you are really going hyper with Ashutosh Maharaj Divya Jyoti Jagran Sanstha , it has been said even in news that this is not against Hindus but against Ashutosh as his followers popularise him as a reincarnation of Guru Nanak Dev, Lord Rama and Jesus Christ. Do you really buy this version as he claims to be incarnation of Lord Ram. If yes, then ask him to testify in court so that we can resolve Ayodhya issue and so that atleast we will have at least one less issue to fight for?
5) Just read the RSS website and find out their views on Harmandir Sahib and their advice to Sikhs on giving away their beliefs.
6) Why the sickening retaliation only against Sikhs, Brahmins killed M Gandhi but not a single Brahmin was killed. Tamilian women killed Rajiv Gandhi not a single Tamilian killed. Presently, Bal Thackerey and his nephew Raj Thackerey spews more venom against fellow hindus then those pracharaks , yet there is not retaliation? Hindus kills many police men in Chattisgarh yet there is no retaliation? Hindu's derails the train ,many dies and yet there is no retaliation? Hindus of Assam kills more Hindus yet there is no retaliation? Ranvir Sena in Bihar kills low caste hindu people yet there no retaliation?
Sher Mian, "Bina aag key duaan nahin uthata". Bus woh aag bujha do toh baki sab shaant. There are only few issues which Sikhs raise time and again just resolve those issues. By resolving those issue Indian government will take out the steam from these type of people? The responsibility lies in the Hand of Indian government, they can either resolve it or give more fuel to it? The choice is with Indian Government?
Observer,
First, you seem to have worked really hard to find instances where you justify sikhs holding grudges against Hindus and Hinduism. maybe you would also justify the aggression against Hindus in Punjab and elsewhere by sikhs because of these 'grudges'.
Coming back to your post, I would start from the cheerleader of Sikh history distortionists, Udhoke. The link I gave was a part of six-seven Youtube videos recorded in Raipur Chattisgarh earlier this year.
Tell me honestly, how many of his videos you have seen to make up your mind that there is no hate speech?
shall i quote those part of his numerous videos where he is slandering whole Hindu community for concocted misdeeds against Sikhs (esp Gurus)?
Ashutosh maharaj… popularising him as as a reincarnation of Guru Nanak Dev, Lord Rama and Jesus Christ.
I do not have to buy any version from any religion inc sikhism. what his followers believe is absolutely non of my concern. they want to promote him as Elvis Presely in dhoti ….i am not bothered. how would i know whether he is a reincarnation of Lord Ram or not? I have no divine power or licence to make such verifications.
but, do the dhadrianwalas and amir singh jawaddi, etc. have got some special powers to verify reincarnations? the answer may be in affirmative or negative but these violent dharam de thakedars definitely did not have any right to interfere in other people's faith and beliefs. who has given powers to the likes of dhadrianwala to decide whether a religious sect can hold function in Punjab or not? What is the diff between dhadrianwala/bhindranwala and Muslim zealots killing sikhs and Hindus in Pakistan?
The truth is a peaceful 'spiritual' samagam was disrupted and organisers were forced to cancel their function just because of a handful of sikh extremists would not tolerate any other faith propagating in punjab other than khalsa.
What if Divya Jyoti retaliates and disrupt a Dhadrianwala function elsewhere in india? i am pretty sure the whole khalsa brigade would be up in arms… how dare. Remember Jyoti sanstha is not the only organisation facing repression in Punjab. the list is too long and i do not want to deviate too much.
As far as Harbans lal Khanna is concerned, you too seem to have fallen a victim to intellectual inertia as you have not cared to research but seems to be quoting from some bhindran or khali website.
If Congress ran such hate campaings post Indira gandhi, they deserve to be punished but why prosecute the whole Hindu community for their deeds and why do Punjabis elect Congress governments with the same frequency as pre1984 elections?
About rajiv gandhi's statement and 1984 carnage in Delhi, "After all, this Party ran its campaign targetting Sikh community…." yes, Congress and its followers are to be blamed for killing sikhs in Delhi why victimise the whole community for their crimes?
Sher
Sher, you have failed to answer the points raised by Observer, nor have you been able to respond to my question about your nationalism under Pritpals's comment below. I'm beginning to question your motive for constantly writing posts on this forum….
Regards
Billi, any point unanswered now? how come umpteen points raised by me go unanswered? as far as your question is concerned, I am an Indian nationalist of secular hue. is that allowed or some Gurmata passed by khali lumpen has banned that?
Sher
Sher Mian, Khali pilli bakwaas kar ke time mat barbaad kiya kar.
which issues are you talking about saint Observer?
As far as Brahmin killing MG or RG or IG is concerned,… Godse was apparently avenging the sufferings of Hindus and sikhs because of MG and his congress colleagues. without condoning what Godse did with MG , it was an isolated act of Hindu terror. the houses of maratha brahmins were burnt after MG assassination.
it would also be wrong to say Tamil Tigers did not have to pay for the assassination of RG. The Indian govt helped SL rout prabhakaran and his fellow terrorists. maoists and Assamese terrorists are fighting for their leftist ideologies and they would have to face the music like scores of terrorist movements before.
You have named so many of 'Hindu' extremist organisations. that Udhoke guy believes Hindus cannot handle a gun
let me say once again Delhi riots were a big aberration and restricted to just a few places in such a vast country. the Hindus genuinely respect Sikhs and any Khalsa living in a hindu majority state would agree to that.
Sher
Observer,
There are few points I would like to make here.
Rajiv Gandhi was NOT a Hindu leader and1984 delhi riots were not Hindu-Sikh riots. RG was making this hideous statement as a leader of a political party and also as a distraught son.
secondly, there are over 1000 million hindus in this world and the sikh population should be something around 20 million yet the number of Hindu-bashing leaders is much higher than sikh-hating LEADERS in Hindu community.
i live near a v large 'historic' Gurudwara in punjab and everyday i hear katha vachaks targeting the so-called Hindu high castes in their sermons. in simple words, the hate for Hindus and their religious icons has been gradually institutionalized in sikhism post Op Blue star. Diff story that no gyani would be able to justify such hatred by quoting bani from Granth sahib. As far as I am aware, this hate campaign is a common feature of all Gurudwaras in at least Punjab and adjacent areas.
the extremist, hindu-hating sikh campaigners like Sukhpreet singh Udhoke has not only been giving hate speeches from Punjab but also places like Raipur (Chattisgarh state capital) in central india.
can a hindu zealot hold a function in say amritisar and say even a single word against Sikhs and their beliefs? Here you have sikhs organising whold function dedicated to Hindu-bashing and yet not a single complaint (forget violence) against their small community.
There was a violent protest by sikh extremists against Hindu Jagran samiti (or some other similar name) of swami ashutosh in Ludhiana earlier this year even though the samagam was entirely peaceful and there is no evidence of ashutosh ever saying anything against Sikhi or sikhs. the samagam attended by over 1 lakh people had to be cancelled in the face of violent protests by sikhs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpMG0LMAFqM&fe…
that is just one small example of hindu tolerance.
On the other hand, has anyone heard a single word of criticism for Sikhi, sikh gurus, Granth sahib, etc. by a Hindu preacher. given such a large populace of Hindus, it should be very common.
Mark my words Observer, this is a very dangerous phenomenon which would manifest in violence against Hindus and obvious, sickening retaliation as we witnessed in 1984 in delhi.
in my opinion, Sikh intellectuals and spiritual leaders need to come forward and reverse this hate campaign against everyday Hindus who are a confused lot trying to figure out what crime they have committed against Sikhs or sikhi.
Sher
Sher mian,
First of all let me clarify you one this Rajiv Gandhi at the time of making that statement was elected Prime Minister of India you cannot brush aside simple saying that he was leader of Political Party . After all, this Party ran its campaign targetting Sikh community and won more seats then even PM Jawahar Lal Nehru. During the Lok Sabha elections of 1984, Congress ran a hate filled campaign which included advertisements and posters that had a picture of a Sikh Taxi driver with the caption Kya Aap Ek Sikh Taxi Driver pe Bharosa kar sakte hain ? (Can You trust a Sikh Taxi Driver?). In Amethi, where Maneka Gandhi was contesting against her brother in law Rajiv Gandhi, slogans like Beti hai Sardar ki, Qaum hai Gaddar ki (She is the daughter of a Sikh, a community of traitors) worked and so did the hate filled posters in the rest of the country. One can argue that Rajiv was in a state of shock after her mother’s death and so could not do much to stop the pogrom. But what about the election campaign that followed ? How can one justify the hate filled posters and slogans in the elections that followed ?
2) Sukhpreet singh Udhoke, I have seen video of this man there is no hate speech in them. Come on Sher Mian don't be moronic Idiot. If you really want to know what are hate speeches are then read books of Dr. Bhim Rao Ambedkar on Hinduism and look out for blogs of some Dalit brothers and sisters on their views on Hinduism.
3) Just find out Harbans Lal Khanna, a former M.L.A. and B.J.P.'s Amritsar district president statements against Sikhs and their beliefs? He was shot dead on April 2 1984.
4) Sher Mian you are really going hyper with Ashutosh Maharaj Divya Jyoti Jagran Sanstha , it has been said even in news that this is not against Hindus but against Ashutosh as his followers popularise him as a reincarnation of Guru Nanak Dev, Lord Rama and Jesus Christ. Do you really buy this version as he claims to be incarnation of Lord Ram. If yes, then ask him to testify in court so that we can resolve Ayodhya issue and so that atleast we will have at least one less issue to fight for?
5) Just read the RSS website and find out their views on Harmandir Sahib and their advice to Sikhs on giving away their beliefs.
6) Why the sickening retaliation only against Sikhs, Brahmins killed M Gandhi but not a single Brahmin was killed. Tamilian women killed Rajiv Gandhi not a single Tamilian killed. Presently, Bal Thackerey and his nephew Raj Thackerey spews more venom against fellow hindus then those pracharaks , yet there is not retaliation? Hindus kills many police men in Chattisgarh yet there is no retaliation? Hindu's derails the train ,many dies and yet there is no retaliation? Hindus of Assam kills more Hindus yet there is no retaliation? Ranvir Sena in Bihar kills low caste hindu people yet there no retaliation?
Sher Mian, "Bina aag key duaan nahin uthata". Bus woh aag bujha do toh baki sab shaant. There are only few issues which Sikhs raise time and again just resolve those issues. By resolving those issue Indian government will take out the steam from these type of people? The responsibility lies in the Hand of Indian government, they can either resolve it or give more fuel to it? The choice is with Indian Government?
Observer,
First, you seem to have worked really hard to find instances where you justify sikhs holding grudges against Hindus and Hinduism. maybe you would also justify the aggression against Hindus in Punjab and elsewhere by sikhs because of these 'grudges'.
Coming back to your post, I would start from the cheerleader of Sikh history distortionists, Udhoke. The link I gave was a part of six-seven Youtube videos recorded in Raipur Chattisgarh earlier this year.
Tell me honestly, how many of his videos you have seen to make up your mind that there is no hate speech?
shall i quote those part of his numerous videos where he is slandering whole Hindu community for concocted misdeeds against Sikhs (esp Gurus)?
Ashutosh maharaj… popularising him as as a reincarnation of Guru Nanak Dev, Lord Rama and Jesus Christ.
I do not have to buy any version from any religion inc sikhism. what his followers believe is absolutely non of my concern. they want to promote him as Elvis Presely in dhoti ….i am not bothered. how would i know whether he is a reincarnation of Lord Ram or not? I have no divine power or licence to make such verifications.
but, do the dhadrianwalas and amir singh jawaddi, etc. have got some special powers to verify reincarnations? the answer may be in affirmative or negative but these violent dharam de thakedars definitely did not have any right to interfere in other people's faith and beliefs. who has given powers to the likes of dhadrianwala to decide whether a religious sect can hold function in Punjab or not? What is the diff between dhadrianwala/bhindranwala and Muslim zealots killing sikhs and Hindus in Pakistan?
The truth is a peaceful 'spiritual' samagam was disrupted and organisers were forced to cancel their function just because of a handful of sikh extremists would not tolerate any other faith propagating in punjab other than khalsa.
What if Divya Jyoti retaliates and disrupt a Dhadrianwala function elsewhere in india? i am pretty sure the whole khalsa brigade would be up in arms… how dare. Remember Jyoti sanstha is not the only organisation facing repression in Punjab. the list is too long and i do not want to deviate too much.
As far as Harbans lal Khanna is concerned, you too seem to have fallen a victim to intellectual inertia as you have not cared to research but seems to be quoting from some bhindran or khali website.
If Congress ran such hate campaings post Indira gandhi, they deserve to be punished but why prosecute the whole Hindu community for their deeds and why do Punjabis elect Congress governments with the same frequency as pre1984 elections?
About rajiv gandhi's statement and 1984 carnage in Delhi, "After all, this Party ran its campaign targetting Sikh community…." yes, Congress and its followers are to be blamed for killing sikhs in Delhi why victimise the whole community for their crimes?
Sher
Sher, you have failed to answer the points raised by Observer, nor have you been able to respond to my question about your nationalism under Pritpals's comment below. I'm beginning to question your motive for constantly writing posts on this forum….
Regards
Billi, any point unanswered now? how come umpteen points raised by me go unanswered? as far as your question is concerned, I am an Indian nationalist of secular hue. is that allowed or some Gurmata passed by khali lumpen has banned that?
Sher
Sher Mian, Khali pilli bakwaas kar ke time mat barbaad kiya kar.
which issues are you talking about saint Observer?
As far as Brahmin killing MG or RG or IG is concerned,… Godse was apparently avenging the sufferings of Hindus and sikhs because of MG and his congress colleagues. without condoning what Godse did with MG , it was an isolated act of Hindu terror. the houses of maratha brahmins were burnt after MG assassination.
it would also be wrong to say Tamil Tigers did not have to pay for the assassination of RG. The Indian govt helped SL rout prabhakaran and his fellow terrorists. maoists and Assamese terrorists are fighting for their leftist ideologies and they would have to face the music like scores of terrorist movements before.
You have named so many of 'Hindu' extremist organisations. that Udhoke guy believes Hindus cannot handle a gun
let me say once again Delhi riots were a big aberration and restricted to just a few places in such a vast country. the Hindus genuinely respect Sikhs and any Khalsa living in a hindu majority state would agree to that.
Sher
Hindus who are a confused lot trying to figure out what crime they have committed against Sikhs or sikhi"
^ Not too clever then are they ? For a start there is not a single Sikh anywhere in the world that hates Hindus. What Sikhs hate is the way that most Hindus have allowed themselves to get sucked up into a Indian nationalist facist mentality….One where it is either their way or the highway.
To make a start though….I suggest they stand in the corner and have a quiet think. Think how when a handfull of hindus got killed in Bombay, not only was the muslim killer (kasab)hanged within a year but they went all out in their investigations and left no stone unturned in bringing anyone even remotely connected to justice. Then, perhaps, these 'hindus' that you speak of can ask themselves why they haven't been active in bringing to justice any of the killers of 10,000 Sikh men, women and tiny babies. How come that injustice doesn't make their blood boil ?
Next, perhaps these Hindus you speak of can ask themselves why, when they are so active and supportive in erasing all signs of British rule in India….i.e reverting monuments, streets and places etc to exactly how they were before the British came…i.e as if the British never came at all…ie Bombay to Mumbhai….Calcutta to Kolkota….Madras to Chennai etc…..Then how come this policy of theirs suddenly comes to a standstill when it comes to reverting Punjab back to exactly what it was before the British came and artificially made it part of India….i.e a fully independant sovereign Sikh nation ?
I suggest therefore, Sher, these 'hindus' you speak of open their eyes and develop some common sense if they're having difficulty seeing the bleedin' obvious. Or…if they're happy in their ignorance…they can always carry on portraying Sikhs as bufoons in their popular media…because everyone likes being portrayed as a bufoon don't they ?
Hindus who are a confused lot trying to figure out what crime they have committed against Sikhs or sikhi"
^ Not too clever then are they ? For a start there is not a single Sikh anywhere in the world that hates Hindus. What Sikhs hate is the way that most Hindus have allowed themselves to get sucked up into a Indian nationalist facist mentality….One where it is either their way or the highway.
To make a start though….I suggest they stand in the corner and have a quiet think. Think how when a handfull of hindus got killed in Bombay, not only was the muslim killer (kasab)hanged within a year but they went all out in their investigations and left no stone unturned in bringing anyone even remotely connected to justice. Then, perhaps, these 'hindus' that you speak of can ask themselves why they haven't been active in bringing to justice any of the killers of 10,000 Sikh men, women and tiny babies. How come that injustice doesn't make their blood boil ?
Next, perhaps these Hindus you speak of can ask themselves why, when they are so active and supportive in erasing all signs of British rule in India….i.e reverting monuments, streets and places etc to exactly how they were before the British came…i.e as if the British never came at all…ie Bombay to Mumbhai….Calcutta to Kolkota….Madras to Chennai etc…..Then how come this policy of theirs suddenly comes to a standstill when it comes to reverting Punjab back to exactly what it was before the British came and artificially made it part of India….i.e a fully independant sovereign Sikh nation ?
I suggest therefore, Sher, these 'hindus' you speak of open their eyes and develop some common sense if they're having difficulty seeing the bleedin' obvious. Or…if they're happy in their ignorance…they can always carry on portraying Sikhs as bufoons in their popular media…because everyone likes being portrayed as a bufoon don't they ?
I know many Punjabi Hindus will jump at it, but I will speak the truth as I see from my eyes and observe things before me in Punjab because I am from Ludhiana.
The majority of Punjabi Hindus have been registering their mother tongue as Hindi in every census time and again. The flood of incoming Hindi speaking and Hinduism following migrants from other states have been a huge rush, and they are contributing to the dilution in Punjabi Language, both spoken and written, and culture with no regrets. This rush of migrants is continuing, both – naturally for better pastures and due to larger propaganda of RSS and Hindu Nationalists to absorb Punjab. The migrants' population is expected to overtake the native Punjabis' in just few years in nearly all big cities. In recent years BJP has gained high grounds in Punjab and its a staunch follower of just Hindi and Hinduism. It will do all its work, functions, official programs etc in Hindi even though its leaders in Punjab are native Punjabis. One of BJP's native Punjabi leader, Laxmi Kant Chawla the health minister, took oath in Hindi when she was elected. Its a story of lot of hypocrisy which is projected with full confidence and sincerity. Then there are highly powerful and influential Hindu godmen like Ashutosh of DJJS, who has his following in lakhs in Punjab, whose discourses are in Hindi and strongly attracts people to Hindu practices and cultures.
So basically if I were to say the above things in gist then the Hindi and Hindu influence, socially, economically and politically has gain lots of grounds due to which native uninformed and gullible Punjabis, particularly Sikhs, have moved towards Hindi and Hinduism. Its a fact. No wonder this obvious reason would incline Punjabi people to demand Khalistan where their language, religion practices and cultures are not vulnerable from Hindi and Hindus. Any religion, culture and language would just not want to be protected, but would also want to be prospered and increase manifold. That is the reason Sant Bhindranwale, if you didn't know this fact about him, also raised awareness about this thing, which normal person would not care about. Listen to his speeches on youtube if you haven't done so. They are very powerful and would awake a sleeping and gullible Punjabi.
I know many Punjabi Hindus will jump at it, but I will speak the truth as I see from my eyes and observe things before me in Punjab because I am from Ludhiana.
The majority of Punjabi Hindus have been registering their mother tongue as Hindi in every census time and again. The flood of incoming Hindi speaking and Hinduism following migrants from other states have been a huge rush, and they are contributing to the dilution in Punjabi Language, both spoken and written, and culture with no regrets. This rush of migrants is continuing, both – naturally for better pastures and due to larger propaganda of RSS and Hindu Nationalists to absorb Punjab. The migrants' population is expected to overtake the native Punjabis' in just few years in nearly all big cities. In recent years BJP has gained high grounds in Punjab and its a staunch follower of just Hindi and Hinduism. It will do all its work, functions, official programs etc in Hindi even though its leaders in Punjab are native Punjabis. One of BJP's native Punjabi leader, Laxmi Kant Chawla the health minister, took oath in Hindi when she was elected. Its a story of lot of hypocrisy which is projected with full confidence and sincerity. Then there are highly powerful and influential Hindu godmen like Ashutosh of DJJS, who has his following in lakhs in Punjab, whose discourses are in Hindi and strongly attracts people to Hindu practices and cultures.
So basically if I were to say the above things in gist then the Hindi and Hindu influence, socially, economically and politically has gain lots of grounds due to which native uninformed and gullible Punjabis, particularly Sikhs, have moved towards Hindi and Hinduism. Its a fact. No wonder this obvious reason would incline Punjabi people to demand Khalistan where their language, religion practices and cultures are not vulnerable from Hindi and Hindus. Any religion, culture and language would just not want to be protected, but would also want to be prospered and increase manifold. That is the reason Sant Bhindranwale, if you didn't know this fact about him, also raised awareness about this thing, which normal person would not care about. Listen to his speeches on youtube if you haven't done so. They are very powerful and would awake a sleeping and gullible Punjabi.
sad..this began about language and literature and has turned into a hate issue with those not proud of punjabi ( Hindu and Muslim) finding excuses for why their adopted languages are better…but sadly tying all with religion…the reason why India will never rise to where China will…
sad..this began about language and literature and has turned into a hate issue with those not proud of punjabi ( Hindu and Muslim) finding excuses for why their adopted languages are better…but sadly tying all with religion…the reason why India will never rise to where China will…