On Neutrality and Justice
The New York Sun posted an editorial today that raises the question of ‘neutrality and justice.’ Quoting from Federal Judge John Noonan in the famous case of Harpal Cheema, who was jailed for six years on suspicion of fundraising for the Khalistan Commando Force:
“Contrary to the government’s assertion, it is by no means self-evident that a person engaged in extra-territorial or resistance activities — even militant activities — is necessarily a threat to the security of the United States. One country’s terrorist can often be another country’s freedom-fighter.”
The New York Sun editorial calls for giving amnesty to two freedom fighters that fought/are fighting against communist regimes. General Vang Pao, is a hero to most Hmong-Americans, and maybe even known to our readers in Sacramento, Fresno, and other locales with high Hmong concentrations. General Pao is facing weapon charges for attempting to aid Hmong militants against the Laotian regime. The other, Cambodian-American Yasith Chhun, attempted something similar against the Cambodian government.
As the summer Olympics game approaches and we are repeatedly reading of continued Tibetan freedom protesters against the Chinese government. What should be the role of Tibetans in America? Should America (or fill in whatever country you are from) provide a space for dissenters to come together? For Irish-Americans, Jewish-Americans, South African-Americans, the American soil has always allowed this ground. Some chose organizations that were not violent, but many did not. What should be the limitations? Is it violence? However, even here it becomes murkier. In Harpal’s case, he didn’t engage in any violence, but he did fundraise for certain groups. What is our barometer of justice? Should the American judicial system be wed to the existing nation-state set-up in the world? Or is the metric the relationship between the opposed state and the United States?
96 Responses to “On Neutrality and Justice”
If anyone fundraises for a terrorist organisation that targets or has a history of using violence against innocents then they are liable to be prosecuted. I don't see what the problem is.
If anyone fundraises for a terrorist organisation that targets or has a history of using violence against innocents then they are liable to be prosecuted. I don’t see what the problem is.
In my opinion, this nation, which was built by the forefathers and was based on morales which seeded from the notion of equality and "freedom," this is what we should support instead of prosecute. In moral and ethics, what the judge states is entirely true: "One country’s terrorist can often be another country’s freedom-fighter." This country sometimes forget the very reason in which it was build upon, a nation that brings all nations together, whether as the world's leader or the very home each person can relate to. U.S. is the only nation in the world where everyone actually has 'roots' from anoter country, be it Europe, S. America, Asia or another country. Very few, if any, actually have his in their own country. They're either pure blood of that nation or belong there. I think it's rediculous that they are trying these men for their actions: fighting for freedom.
On another note, for example, if Iraq had a Neutrality Act, wouldn't their own people be tried for helping the U.S. invade and take control of their own land? This is all messed up and corrupted.
I would say they should ONLY prosecute these men if, and only if, they have previously agreed to give up on what they fought for in the beginning, meaning that they should pretend that everything never happened. The point is, they originally were recruited by the U.S. and had every right to go against the Lao government (which was/is ruled by the Vietcong), and because the War has never really stopped (they are still trying to kill ethnic Hmong in the jungles), they (General Vang Pao) can assume it's still their job to carry out and complete their duty which was handed to them by the U.S. back then. They could really use this defense and argue their point, a very good point. Therefore, if they never have officially agreed to end the war, sign treaty, agreement etc, they have every right to consider they are still at war. A war that even when the U.S. pulled out, still went on and is still going on right now. check out: factfinding.org
In my opinion, this nation, which was built by the forefathers and was based on morales which seeded from the notion of equality and “freedom,” this is what we should support instead of prosecute. In moral and ethics, what the judge states is entirely true: “One country’s terrorist can often be another country’s freedom-fighter.” This country sometimes forget the very reason in which it was build upon, a nation that brings all nations together, whether as the world’s leader or the very home each person can relate to. U.S. is the only nation in the world where everyone actually has ‘roots’ from anoter country, be it Europe, S. America, Asia or another country. Very few, if any, actually have his in their own country. They’re either pure blood of that nation or belong there. I think it’s rediculous that they are trying these men for their actions: fighting for freedom.
On another note, for example, if Iraq had a Neutrality Act, wouldn’t their own people be tried for helping the U.S. invade and take control of their own land? This is all messed up and corrupted.
I would say they should ONLY prosecute these men if, and only if, they have previously agreed to give up on what they fought for in the beginning, meaning that they should pretend that everything never happened. The point is, they originally were recruited by the U.S. and had every right to go against the Lao government (which was/is ruled by the Vietcong), and because the War has never really stopped (they are still trying to kill ethnic Hmong in the jungles), they (General Vang Pao) can assume it’s still their job to carry out and complete their duty which was handed to them by the U.S. back then. They could really use this defense and argue their point, a very good point. Therefore, if they never have officially agreed to end the war, sign treaty, agreement etc, they have every right to consider they are still at war. A war that even when the U.S. pulled out, still went on and is still going on right now. check out: factfinding.org
I think the US government only focus on against terrorist not focus to fight communist or dictatorship regimes. Many people fight communist but the US gov. ignore it. We the people in the USA need to stand up to fight true freedom and democracy in the world and security un our home land .
I think the US government only focus on against terrorist not focus to fight communist or dictatorship regimes. Many people fight communist but the US gov. ignore it. We the people in the USA need to stand up to fight true freedom and democracy in the world and security un our home land .
I feel that anyone living in America should obey American laws. If you want to use America as a base of operations, you should be prosecuted to the full extent of law. Insubordination should not be tolerated in any way shape or form.
I feel that anyone living in America should obey American laws. If you want to use America as a base of operations, you should be prosecuted to the full extent of law. Insubordination should not be tolerated in any way shape or form.
so in that case, Laos should be held accountable for violating International Law? All Laos does it kill and kill all the people who are hiding in the jungles. They are still bombing them like crazy killing numerous American allies. Where's the law in that? Also, why won't Lao allow united nations or amnesty international or other world organizations get involved…why only Aljezeera? Kinda fishy, don'tcha think? if they have nothing to hide, they should let the world know what they are doing under the table. This is how corrupted it Laos is.
April 8, 2008
My Responds to Arrest of Hmong American Leaders
The rescue of the Secret War veterans and their families from the genocide at the hands of the Lao government cannot be accomplished by attempts to overthrow those in power or by active insurgency on the part of those still trapped in the jungles of Laos. The international community will not support such an action nor diplomatically pursue a solution for these people if either of these two activities is taking place. This has been the message of the Hmong community to General Vang Pao and those leaders who where recently arrested.
At the same time while the Hmong community cannot condone the alleged conduct it finds it difficult to condemn the motives of the men involved.
For nearly thirty years the Pathet Lao have systematically attempted to "destroy to the root" those in Laos who had been loyal to the United States during the war in Southeast Asia. The Lao military continually hunts these people who are hiding in the remote jungles. Many incidents of attacks against innocent women and children as they gather food have been documented. Stories of torture, rape, and infanticide have come from those in the jungles now for decades.
These in the jungles are the soldiers left behind after the war and their families. They are the comrades, brothers, sisters, and cousins of the Hmong here in America. The hunting and killing of these people has been the best kept secret of the LPDR.
In 2001 the Hmong community set out to expose this secret persecution of America's allies. Believing that telling the story in pictures would make a difference Hmong comity sent cameras and telephones into the jungle to capture the truth of what was happening to these people. Subsequently Time Magazine journalist Andrew Perrin, and award winning photographer Philip Blenkinsop entered the jungle and confirmed the plight of these people. In addition to Time Magazine Blenkinsop's photographs of the Hmong have been in dozens of major publications throughout the world and won many awards. Later BBC journalists Ruhi Hamid, and Misha Maltzev; independent Canadian journalist Nelson Rand; French journalist Cyril Payen; and more recently World Picture News journalist Roger Arnold brought out the truth of the persecution of these people at the hands of the Lao government.
In 2003 Andrew Perrin told the people in the jungle “You have been a secret for 27 years, you will be a secret no more.”
The Hmong in America watched the video and pictures and followed the story of their families still in Laos. They were able to see first hand the horrific conditions under which their mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, and cousins were living. Their hope was now the international community would respond to the cries of their people and work to rescue them. For once they now had hope for a future for their friends and family.
The plight of these people reached Congress, the State Department, the United Nations, the European Union, and other nations. Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the international media and others have cried out for the rescue of these people. People such as Colin Powell, Kofi Anan, and Condoleeza Rice have acknowledged concern for these people. Some, as with us, have worked toward a solution but have failed. Others have turned a blind eye and a deaf ear to the plight of these people.
Those from the jungle that have surrendered have been imprisoned and the fate of many is unknown. To date only a handful has made it safely out of the mountainous jungles of Laos and into neighboring Thailand. As refugees in Thailand they meet an uncertain fate. Thailand is not prepared to handle them. They are kept in military guarded camps or in jails. The UNHCR has no access to them. Even those that have been granted refugee status by the UNHCR face the possibility of being sent back to Laos. Once the Hmong had favor status that would allow them to migrate to the United States. However, under a provision of the Patriot Act they are now defined as Terrorists because they have borne arms against the communist government of Laos. They literally have no one to turn to.
Those in America have watched for years their people suffering at the hands of the communist government of Laos. While the world is aware of their plight there have been no solutions for them. The United States and the international community have failed to find a diplomatic resolution. Therefore when presented with what are misguided promises by others these otherwise good men have made what they see is a last ditch effort to save their brothers and sisters from genocide.
Tragically a noble historical figure has fallen from grace. General Vang Pao is one of the most respected military strategists of the last century. Without his Secret Army the spread of communism would have engulfed all of Southeast Asia. Like no other leader in exile he has held the Hmong people together giving them a vision for the future. Those who may have led this elderly world leader into this serious matter need to take stalk on what they may have cost this father of the Hmong people.
In October of 2003 General Vang Pao announced his Peace Doctrine. In that announcement he encouraged the international Laotian community to work peacefully toward a more certain future for the people of Laos through education and economic development. In 2005 he met with staff of the State Department in Washington and with U.N. staff members in New York were he denounced any intention to overthrow the government of Laos and reiterated his desire to negotiate a peaceful resolution for those in the mountains of Laos. His position was not received well by some. His son's home in Minnesota was firebombed nearly costing the life of his son, daughter-in-law and grandchildren.
Though he has been under a great deal of pressure for his position, Vang Pao in his conversations with the Hmong community has continued to support a peaceful resolution for the people in the jungle. What may have made a change in the last few months is unclear. Again, those that may have persuaded him to pursue another path have done Vang Pao a great injustice.
The Hmong community needs to understand they cannot save those left behind by destroying themselves from within. If the allegations are true what the men did is very wrong. On the other hand how does anyone helplessly stand by and watch their family die. All of us are capable of lapses in judgment when those close to us are in harms way. The fault does is not in the hands of those who deeply care and are unable to do anything it is the in the hands of those that have the power to help and have done nothing.
Thank you very much for your time.
Sincerely,
Pao Vue
so in that case, Laos should be held accountable for violating International Law? All Laos does it kill and kill all the people who are hiding in the jungles. They are still bombing them like crazy killing numerous American allies. Where’s the law in that? Also, why won’t Lao allow united nations or amnesty international or other world organizations get involved…why only Aljezeera? Kinda fishy, don’tcha think? if they have nothing to hide, they should let the world know what they are doing under the table. This is how corrupted it Laos is.
I am finding this conversation interesting for the diversity of opinions expressed and insight into aspects of Hmong and Laotian history that I was not aware of, however, the main question still hasn't been addressed.
I think from some of the comments (with the exception of Lao Guy), there seems to be a consensus that America should be a possible platform/staging point for those that wish to fight for freedom in their homeland. However, the question still remains which causes should/can be supported? The FBI/CIA and other US government forces have taken a stern stance against those that support materially to causes far from US soil, but should this be correct?
April 8, 2008
My Responds to Arrest of Hmong American Leaders
The rescue of the Secret War veterans and their families from the genocide at the hands of the Lao government cannot be accomplished by attempts to overthrow those in power or by active insurgency on the part of those still trapped in the jungles of Laos. The international community will not support such an action nor diplomatically pursue a solution for these people if either of these two activities is taking place. This has been the message of the Hmong community to General Vang Pao and those leaders who where recently arrested.
At the same time while the Hmong community cannot condone the alleged conduct it finds it difficult to condemn the motives of the men involved.
For nearly thirty years the Pathet Lao have systematically attempted to “destroy to the root” those in Laos who had been loyal to the United States during the war in Southeast Asia. The Lao military continually hunts these people who are hiding in the remote jungles. Many incidents of attacks against innocent women and children as they gather food have been documented. Stories of torture, rape, and infanticide have come from those in the jungles now for decades.
These in the jungles are the soldiers left behind after the war and their families. They are the comrades, brothers, sisters, and cousins of the Hmong here in America. The hunting and killing of these people has been the best kept secret of the LPDR.
In 2001 the Hmong community set out to expose this secret persecution of America’s allies. Believing that telling the story in pictures would make a difference Hmong comity sent cameras and telephones into the jungle to capture the truth of what was happening to these people. Subsequently Time Magazine journalist Andrew Perrin, and award winning photographer Philip Blenkinsop entered the jungle and confirmed the plight of these people. In addition to Time Magazine Blenkinsop’s photographs of the Hmong have been in dozens of major publications throughout the world and won many awards. Later BBC journalists Ruhi Hamid, and Misha Maltzev; independent Canadian journalist Nelson Rand; French journalist Cyril Payen; and more recently World Picture News journalist Roger Arnold brought out the truth of the persecution of these people at the hands of the Lao government.
In 2003 Andrew Perrin told the people in the jungle “You have been a secret for 27 years, you will be a secret no more.”
The Hmong in America watched the video and pictures and followed the story of their families still in Laos. They were able to see first hand the horrific conditions under which their mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, and cousins were living. Their hope was now the international community would respond to the cries of their people and work to rescue them. For once they now had hope for a future for their friends and family.
The plight of these people reached Congress, the State Department, the United Nations, the European Union, and other nations. Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, the international media and others have cried out for the rescue of these people. People such as Colin Powell, Kofi Anan, and Condoleeza Rice have acknowledged concern for these people. Some, as with us, have worked toward a solution but have failed. Others have turned a blind eye and a deaf ear to the plight of these people.
Those from the jungle that have surrendered have been imprisoned and the fate of many is unknown. To date only a handful has made it safely out of the mountainous jungles of Laos and into neighboring Thailand. As refugees in Thailand they meet an uncertain fate. Thailand is not prepared to handle them. They are kept in military guarded camps or in jails. The UNHCR has no access to them. Even those that have been granted refugee status by the UNHCR face the possibility of being sent back to Laos. Once the Hmong had favor status that would allow them to migrate to the United States. However, under a provision of the Patriot Act they are now defined as Terrorists because they have borne arms against the communist government of Laos. They literally have no one to turn to.
Those in America have watched for years their people suffering at the hands of the communist government of Laos. While the world is aware of their plight there have been no solutions for them. The United States and the international community have failed to find a diplomatic resolution. Therefore when presented with what are misguided promises by others these otherwise good men have made what they see is a last ditch effort to save their brothers and sisters from genocide.
Tragically a noble historical figure has fallen from grace. General Vang Pao is one of the most respected military strategists of the last century. Without his Secret Army the spread of communism would have engulfed all of Southeast Asia. Like no other leader in exile he has held the Hmong people together giving them a vision for the future. Those who may have led this elderly world leader into this serious matter need to take stalk on what they may have cost this father of the Hmong people.
In October of 2003 General Vang Pao announced his Peace Doctrine. In that announcement he encouraged the international Laotian community to work peacefully toward a more certain future for the people of Laos through education and economic development. In 2005 he met with staff of the State Department in Washington and with U.N. staff members in New York were he denounced any intention to overthrow the government of Laos and reiterated his desire to negotiate a peaceful resolution for those in the mountains of Laos. His position was not received well by some. His son’s home in Minnesota was firebombed nearly costing the life of his son, daughter-in-law and grandchildren.
Though he has been under a great deal of pressure for his position, Vang Pao in his conversations with the Hmong community has continued to support a peaceful resolution for the people in the jungle. What may have made a change in the last few months is unclear. Again, those that may have persuaded him to pursue another path have done Vang Pao a great injustice.
The Hmong community needs to understand they cannot save those left behind by destroying themselves from within. If the allegations are true what the men did is very wrong. On the other hand how does anyone helplessly stand by and watch their family die. All of us are capable of lapses in judgment when those close to us are in harms way. The fault does is not in the hands of those who deeply care and are unable to do anything it is the in the hands of those that have the power to help and have done nothing.
Thank you very much for your time.
Sincerely,
Pao Vue
I am finding this conversation interesting for the diversity of opinions expressed and insight into aspects of Hmong and Laotian history that I was not aware of, however, the main question still hasn’t been addressed.
I think from some of the comments (with the exception of Lao Guy), there seems to be a consensus that America should be a possible platform/staging point for those that wish to fight for freedom in their homeland. However, the question still remains which causes should/can be supported? The FBI/CIA and other US government forces have taken a stern stance against those that support materially to causes far from US soil, but should this be correct?
Current policy is trying to walk the fine line between enforcing its new laws preventing attacks on civilians (I'm tired of the word 'terrorism') and protecting highly valued civil liberties like free speech and association. Groups on both sides of the debate – those who want greater protection of civil liberties, and those who want greater enforcement of laws preventing attacks on civilians- think that not enough is being done to protect their interest.
Mewa, you ask- who should be supported- but I think a preliminary question should be- who is in a position to decide which groups are/should be deemed legitimate?
The government? Civilians? I guess theoretically, we can lobby and try to pass laws that support our viewpoints, but most people aren't that involved or interested in how they're governed, as long as they're comfortable. So realistically, it's just a judgment call that legislators will make.
To grant legitimacy to freedom fighters, a government would have to either grant all groups legitimacy or none, if legitimacy were to be granted in a fair and principled way. If any distinctions were to be made between groups, any lines drawn, it would inevitably lead to bias and political preferences.
But there's no way that any government would consider all freedom fighters legitimate. And it's pretty unlikely that NO freedom fighters would be deemed legitimate (governments have preferences for who they'd like to work with in another country). So realistically, it seems impossible that any distinction between freedom fighters will be entirely fair – it will inevitably be politically colored.
Current policy is trying to walk the fine line between enforcing its new laws preventing attacks on civilians (I’m tired of the word ‘terrorism’) and protecting highly valued civil liberties like free speech and association. Groups on both sides of the debate – those who want greater protection of civil liberties, and those who want greater enforcement of laws preventing attacks on civilians- think that not enough is being done to protect their interest.
Mewa, you ask- who should be supported- but I think a preliminary question should be- who is in a position to decide which groups are/should be deemed legitimate?
The government? Civilians? I guess theoretically, we can lobby and try to pass laws that support our viewpoints, but most people aren’t that involved or interested in how they’re governed, as long as they’re comfortable. So realistically, it’s just a judgment call that legislators will make.
To grant legitimacy to freedom fighters, a government would have to either grant all groups legitimacy or none, if legitimacy were to be granted in a fair and principled way. If any distinctions were to be made between groups, any lines drawn, it would inevitably lead to bias and political preferences.
But there’s no way that any government would consider all freedom fighters legitimate. And it’s pretty unlikely that NO freedom fighters would be deemed legitimate (governments have preferences for who they’d like to work with in another country). So realistically, it seems impossible that any distinction between freedom fighters will be entirely fair – it will inevitably be politically colored.
As Reema stated:
I highly doubt any freedom fighting groups will be viewed as being "legitimate" in the U.S., but the extent to which members of these groups are "watched" and "persecuted" for their activities depends on the U.S.'s relations with the country[ies] they are fighting in. In general, if the U.S. has good relations with the country[ies] the groups are deemed "terrorists"; if the relationship is bad, but the U.S. has personal interests there then group members are viewed as "freedom fighters"; if there is no self-interests then the U.S. acts as though “we don’t really know what’s going on” [because we just don’t care].
As Reema stated:
I highly doubt any freedom fighting groups will be viewed as being “legitimate” in the U.S., but the extent to which members of these groups are “watched” and “persecuted” for their activities depends on the U.S.’s relations with the country[ies] they are fighting in. In general, if the U.S. has good relations with the country[ies] the groups are deemed “terrorists”; if the relationship is bad, but the U.S. has personal interests there then group members are viewed as “freedom fighters”; if there is no self-interests then the U.S. acts as though “we don’t really know what’s going on” [because we just don’t care].
Phulkari,
Being considered a 'freedom fighter' instead of a terrorist grants the freedom fighters' cause/org. legitimacy, though their methods may be the same as groups who are called terrorists.
American laws are complicated yet are often ignored by lawmakers. Do you think a war over oil in Iraq is more reasonable than taking down communist regimes (American's biggest adversaries)? Our real enemy is in Afghan if we wanted a real fight. "There was no Al-qeada in Iraq until George Bush and John McCain came along."
We, Americans, contradict ourselves; we don't know what we want anymore. We wanted to take down communism during the Vietnam War. We wanted to get rid of Fidel Castro. We gave $ to North Koreans for them to stop their nuclear ambition.
We found Saddam Hussein with no WMD; and our government prosecuted him for human rights. If all of these hold true: the Laotian government should be prosecuted for ousting the Royal Government and killing hundreds of innocent lives in the aftermath of the Vietnam War.
Remember, we, Americans, only favor the game our way. No one else. This is why we recruit the World's best athletes to be Americans: David Beckham, for example. We no longer believe in freedom fighters, we believe how we can best compete in the world with wealth, health, economy and education. The whole war in Iraq is to protect the economic interest of oil before the Chinese goes in with its Great Wall-length pipelines and suck it in all to China.
My friends, there is no economic interest in Laos. There is no oil in Laos. Laos has no value to the world–especially a country that is not run by their own government, but a Vietnamese-backed government. Even Vietnamese themselves don't want China to control them; that is why they are moving towards opening their country to foreign investors. Open-trade is the start to reaching democracy.
No matter how much you want to end communism in Laos, it has to start from the people within that country. Look at Kosovo. Laotians don't even want freedom/democracy themselves. American was built on this philosophy because we couldn't handle the British Empire anymore.
And if you are not at the top making the decisions, likely your objectives will only end you in handcuffs.
Phulkari,
Being considered a ‘freedom fighter’ instead of a terrorist grants the freedom fighters’ cause/org. legitimacy, though their methods may be the same as groups who are called terrorists.
Gen. Vang Pao and the communities leaders and group appeal to the US congress and US government asked to help deal with the Lao PDR communist dictator continue voilent human right, not allow free religion, free press, free assembly, and attack civilian people who waiting for democracy in the jungle. Why US and some international communities continue support communist, dictator, and autoritarian regimes like Lao PDR, communist Vietnam,communist China,dictatorship communist North Korea, and Dictator Iran? When this earth came be peace to erase the communist, authoritarian, stalism so the earth can be more peace and enjoy the democratic system to do more business and bring happiness to all people in this earth. I believe that if no communists, dictator, odd parties in the earth we will be peace and have true democracy and freedom loving.
God Bless Democracy and Freedom.
The US congress and government ignore Gen Vang Pao, his leaders, and group ask for help and deal with communist LPDR…
God Bless Those People who care about Democracy and Freedom…
I like to correct my quote the US govt not support North Korea and Iran, but support communist LaoPDR, Vietnam, China by bring our manufacture jobs, business, funding to these communist nations. Why we are not do business with democratic nation like Mexico, Thailand, and Phillipine. If US bring more manufacture jobs to Mexico it might help reduce illigal immigrated issues…
American laws are complicated yet are often ignored by lawmakers. Do you think a war over oil in Iraq is more reasonable than taking down communist regimes (American’s biggest adversaries)? Our real enemy is in Afghan if we wanted a real fight. “There was no Al-qeada in Iraq until George Bush and John McCain came along.”
We, Americans, contradict ourselves; we don’t know what we want anymore. We wanted to take down communism during the Vietnam War. We wanted to get rid of Fidel Castro. We gave $ to North Koreans for them to stop their nuclear ambition.
We found Saddam Hussein with no WMD; and our government prosecuted him for human rights. If all of these hold true: the Laotian government should be prosecuted for ousting the Royal Government and killing hundreds of innocent lives in the aftermath of the Vietnam War.
Remember, we, Americans, only favor the game our way. No one else. This is why we recruit the World’s best athletes to be Americans: David Beckham, for example. We no longer believe in freedom fighters, we believe how we can best compete in the world with wealth, health, economy and education. The whole war in Iraq is to protect the economic interest of oil before the Chinese goes in with its Great Wall-length pipelines and suck it in all to China.
My friends, there is no economic interest in Laos. There is no oil in Laos. Laos has no value to the world–especially a country that is not run by their own government, but a Vietnamese-backed government. Even Vietnamese themselves don’t want China to control them; that is why they are moving towards opening their country to foreign investors. Open-trade is the start to reaching democracy.
No matter how much you want to end communism in Laos, it has to start from the people within that country. Look at Kosovo. Laotians don’t even want freedom/democracy themselves. American was built on this philosophy because we couldn’t handle the British Empire anymore.
And if you are not at the top making the decisions, likely your objectives will only end you in handcuffs.
Gen. Vang Pao and the communities leaders and group appeal to the US congress and US government asked to help deal with the Lao PDR communist dictator continue voilent human right, not allow free religion, free press, free assembly, and attack civilian people who waiting for democracy in the jungle. Why US and some international communities continue support communist, dictator, and autoritarian regimes like Lao PDR, communist Vietnam,communist China,dictatorship communist North Korea, and Dictator Iran? When this earth came be peace to erase the communist, authoritarian, stalism so the earth can be more peace and enjoy the democratic system to do more business and bring happiness to all people in this earth. I believe that if no communists, dictator, odd parties in the earth we will be peace and have true democracy and freedom loving.
God Bless Democracy and Freedom.
The US congress and government ignore Gen Vang Pao, his leaders, and group ask for help and deal with communist LPDR…
God Bless Those People who care about Democracy and Freedom…
Democracy, I would like to respond to your comments. What has Hmong done for America lately? Hmong, as you know, is not a COUNTRY, but an ethnic group living in Laos and elsewhere. The so called DEBT that Hmong are so proud of were paid in full when America brought you to their land. China and Vietnam in my opinion are so prosperous with a lot of MULA, if you know what I mean. Vietnam is a big brother of Laos. So my question to you is, how much DOUGH could Hmong cough up to get assistance from the best military this planet has ever known to free your people? Are you aware of the fact that there are no free lunches?
I like to correct my quote the US govt not support North Korea and Iran, but support communist LaoPDR, Vietnam, China by bring our manufacture jobs, business, funding to these communist nations. Why we are not do business with democratic nation like Mexico, Thailand, and Phillipine. If US bring more manufacture jobs to Mexico it might help reduce illigal immigrated issues…
In response to lao guy… so what's your debt to this country and why are you here? if you're even here. otherwise, you should be thankful for tagging and riding alone while standing on the sidelines for your free ride here. what'd you stand up for?
Democracy, I would like to respond to your comments. What has Hmong done for America lately? Hmong, as you know, is not a COUNTRY, but an ethnic group living in Laos and elsewhere. The so called DEBT that Hmong are so proud of were paid in full when America brought you to their land. China and Vietnam in my opinion are so prosperous with a lot of MULA, if you know what I mean. Vietnam is a big brother of Laos. So my question to you is, how much DOUGH could Hmong cough up to get assistance from the best military this planet has ever known to free your people? Are you aware of the fact that there are no free lunches?
Sam, I am a tax paying naturalized citizen of America. I am what the LPDR call "American National, AKA traitor." I have said it many times that Hmong and Lao Loum as well as all Southeast Asians living in America, Canada, etc. should refrain from going to visit the commie countries. How much money do you think the commies are getting from tourism per year? I say again, many losers go to the commie countries to boink the children, to marry some sweet girl, to show they have money, to be BIG. WHOOP T DOO……
Let me give you another example, Tibet is a country, not an ethnic group of people. Who is helping Tibet to be free from China? Even a country as ginormous (slang) as Tibet couldnot get help from the United Nations or America to gain their independence from mother China. Tell me what are Hmong again, a pebble of sand in the vast beaches of this planet? Everyone talks of Democracy and Freedom, do you know that you need a strong government to enforce such?
In response to lao guy… so what’s your debt to this country and why are you here? if you’re even here. otherwise, you should be thankful for tagging and riding alone while standing on the sidelines for your free ride here. what’d you stand up for?
the u.s. plays a big game in asia. before it reaches its goal, it needs to sacrafy some of its checkers to the other parties. don't worry, by the end, it will get everything back.
Watch and see!
Sam, I am a tax paying naturalized citizen of America. I am what the LPDR call “American National, AKA traitor.” I have said it many times that Hmong and Lao Loum as well as all Southeast Asians living in America, Canada, etc. should refrain from going to visit the commie countries. How much money do you think the commies are getting from tourism per year? I say again, many losers go to the commie countries to boink the children, to marry some sweet girl, to show they have money, to be BIG. WHOOP T DOO……
Let me give you another example, Tibet is a country, not an ethnic group of people. Who is helping Tibet to be free from China? Even a country as ginormous (slang) as Tibet couldnot get help from the United Nations or America to gain their independence from mother China. Tell me what are Hmong again, a pebble of sand in the vast beaches of this planet? Everyone talks of Democracy and Freedom, do you know that you need a strong government to enforce such?
the u.s. plays a big game in asia. before it reaches its goal, it needs to sacrafy some of its checkers to the other parties. don’t worry, by the end, it will get everything back.
Watch and see!
To Lao guy,
"Hmong, as you know, is not a COUNTRY, but an ethnic group living in Laos and elsewhere".
As Hmong/Lao/American, I should say that what the Hmong and other ethnics in Laos did during the war was to protect the Kingdom,no less and no more. Why should we fight if we did have a cause or belief. Even though the CIA paid us to fight, we all fought for Laos — no questions asked.
Now, why people — many of you pointed to the Hmong, will do this since we do not have a country. You are mistaken. We lived in Laos, we were citizens of Laos. We should have every rights like any Lao Lum to protect,claim, and/or have other causes for the sake of the country. If you exclude the Hmong, and using only Hmong for this discussion, then you evidently discriminate the Hmong, don't you think?
What General Vang Pao does/will do is not only for the Hmong, but for the whole country.
Thank you
Lan Xang forever
Hmong guy
I feel Hmong fought for CIA mula, not for KING and COUNTRY. Come on, please, stop trying to sweetened it up. Why don't any of you ask General Vang Pao how many ghost employees he had on his roster? You are only insulting your own intelligence or lack thereof when you said that General Vang Pao is doing what he did for the whole country. How many of the 11 accused are Lao Loum? I rest my case. I really don't want to turn this sweet forum into past discussions.
I don't get it. The Lao ppl in the US don't even care anymore that they had a country. The Lao ppl did have a country until 1975. Today's Laos is a Vietnamese Laos.
It is at the disadvantage of the Hmong when their population is not even half of a million in Laos. You can't build a country with only 1/2 a million of people, and when you are the minority race in Laos.
May be after all, Dr. Yang Dao's approach is right: invest education into our children in Laos, and soon in the future, they will be smart enough to be ministries and prime ministers/presidents in Laos and everywhere. What a good idea!
To Lao guy,
“Hmong, as you know, is not a COUNTRY, but an ethnic group living in Laos and elsewhere”.
As Hmong/Lao/American, I should say that what the Hmong and other ethnics in Laos did during the war was to protect the Kingdom,no less and no more. Why should we fight if we did have a cause or belief. Even though the CIA paid us to fight, we all fought for Laos — no questions asked.
Now, why people — many of you pointed to the Hmong, will do this since we do not have a country. You are mistaken. We lived in Laos, we were citizens of Laos. We should have every rights like any Lao Lum to protect,claim, and/or have other causes for the sake of the country. If you exclude the Hmong, and using only Hmong for this discussion, then you evidently discriminate the Hmong, don’t you think?
What General Vang Pao does/will do is not only for the Hmong, but for the whole country.
Thank you
Lan Xang forever
Hmong guy
FREE TIBET!
[Viet Guy, it is great you feel so strongly, but no need to show off your copy-paste skills, it only gets deleted. However you may even be better off writing something as oppose to mere slogans. Just 2 paisa worth – Admin Singh]
I feel Hmong fought for CIA mula, not for KING and COUNTRY. Come on, please, stop trying to sweetened it up. Why don’t any of you ask General Vang Pao how many ghost employees he had on his roster? You are only insulting your own intelligence or lack thereof when you said that General Vang Pao is doing what he did for the whole country. How many of the 11 accused are Lao Loum? I rest my case. I really don’t want to turn this sweet forum into past discussions.
I don’t get it. The Lao ppl in the US don’t even care anymore that they had a country. The Lao ppl did have a country until 1975. Today’s Laos is a Vietnamese Laos.
It is at the disadvantage of the Hmong when their population is not even half of a million in Laos. You can’t build a country with only 1/2 a million of people, and when you are the minority race in Laos.
May be after all, Dr. Yang Dao’s approach is right: invest education into our children in Laos, and soon in the future, they will be smart enough to be ministries and prime ministers/presidents in Laos and everywhere. What a good idea!
Sorry, I guess I overdid it! Please support the Tibetan cause by boycotting the Olympics! May the Chinese communists realize the error of their ways and come to realize that aggression can never replace real dialogue between people as a means of resolving issues. Peace to all peoples and nations! Thank you for your precious time…
[No problem, thank you Viet Guy! – Admin Singh]
Now if [everyone] were as educated and polite as Viet guy, the world would be a better place.
[Sorry for the change Lao Guy, but keep it kind, we don't like ethnic bashing….Thanks….Admin Singh]
FREE TIBET!
[Viet Guy, it is great you feel so strongly, but no need to show off your copy-paste skills, it only gets deleted. However you may even be better off writing something as oppose to mere slogans. Just 2 paisa worth – Admin Singh]
I apologize for the last comment. It will not happen again.
lao guy, you just bit your own tongue there. sorry to say but thanks Admin for keep an eye out for careless people.
Anyway, i don't see any truth to the 'getting paid' part for helping the CIA. And according to elders, they say Laos was a better place to live before communism took over. At the time, it was either you helped fight or get killed. Most that had no choice fled to neighboring Thailand for refuge.
Sorry, I guess I overdid it! Please support the Tibetan cause by boycotting the Olympics! May the Chinese communists realize the error of their ways and come to realize that aggression can never replace real dialogue between people as a means of resolving issues. Peace to all peoples and nations! Thank you for your precious time…
[No problem, thank you Viet Guy! – Admin Singh]
Now if [everyone] were as educated and polite as Viet guy, the world would be a better place.
[Sorry for the change Lao Guy, but keep it kind, we don’t like ethnic bashing….Thanks….Admin Singh]
Sam, you would have to on the payroll of General Vang Pao Secret War Army to get paid by the CIA. You cannot just be ordinary citizen to get any funding.
I apologize for the last comment. It will not happen again.
lao guy, you just bit your own tongue there. sorry to say but thanks Admin for keep an eye out for careless people.
Anyway, i don’t see any truth to the ‘getting paid’ part for helping the CIA. And according to elders, they say Laos was a better place to live before communism took over. At the time, it was either you helped fight or get killed. Most that had no choice fled to neighboring Thailand for refuge.
Sam, you would have to on the payroll of General Vang Pao Secret War Army to get paid by the CIA. You cannot just be ordinary citizen to get any funding.
lao guy, this shows you have no idea what you're talking about. My father was in the frontlines and my uncle operated mortar-like weapons and became deaf from it. They didn't see any $. It was an occupation or job, if that's how you look at what war is. You say so much about General VP, but you don't even know a bit about it. You can't just make comments because you're Laotion, it's just not credible.
lao guy, this shows you have no idea what you’re talking about. My father was in the frontlines and my uncle operated mortar-like weapons and became deaf from it. They didn’t see any $. It was an occupation or job, if that’s how you look at what war is. You say so much about General VP, but you don’t even know a bit about it. You can’t just make comments because you’re Laotion, it’s just not credible.
Hmmm…I wonder how this so called Lao guy got here? Did he work for the CIA?
OK…Lao guy, I was born in Laos, speak and write lao. Both my father and older fought during the war. Didn't your daddy do that? I don't recall seeing a report of how many Lao Lum died during the war. However, history shows that more than 35,000 Hmong men died fighting the war. Oh, don't forget that there were many brave Lao Lum who fought under VP as well such as Col. Thong Vongrasamy. Do you know why the CIA bypassed the Royal Govt. to handpick the Hmong for its service? It's because there are people like you who never accepts the truth. Well, if you don't know the truth…do more researches.
Again, if you believe that VP only did for the Hmong,or what he's doing now is only for the Hmong, then, let's say, just close your eyes and open them again. Now, pretend that Laos is liberated by VP or the Hmong, would you still call it Laos or Hmong? Don't worry…Laos is no longer itself. The next 50-100 years, you will see more Vietnamese than Laotian. Loas has sold a land in Vientiane to the Chinese already.
Remember when Col. Bill Lair asked VP "If the Meo were armed, would they try to become autonomous, or would they be loyal to the Laotian government?" His answer was…" I am loyal to the King of Laos."
Did you know that VP even built a Lao temple and invited Lao monks to Long Cheng. Again, he even built a vacation home for the King. Did any of your Lao Lum generals had done such? At the last moment after visiting Souvanna, he went to see the King and asked the His Majesty the King to leave the country, but was turned down. That showed how much he cared about the King!
Please do more research and come back and we'll talk more.
Lan Xang forever
Hmong guy
Hmmm…I wonder how this so called Lao guy got here? Did he work for the CIA?
OK…Lao guy, I was born in Laos, speak and write lao. Both my father and older fought during the war. Didn’t your daddy do that? I don’t recall seeing a report of how many Lao Lum died during the war. However, history shows that more than 35,000 Hmong men died fighting the war. Oh, don’t forget that there were many brave Lao Lum who fought under VP as well such as Col. Thong Vongrasamy. Do you know why the CIA bypassed the Royal Govt. to handpick the Hmong for its service? It’s because there are people like you who never accepts the truth. Well, if you don’t know the truth…do more researches.
Again, if you believe that VP only did for the Hmong,or what he’s doing now is only for the Hmong, then, let’s say, just close your eyes and open them again. Now, pretend that Laos is liberated by VP or the Hmong, would you still call it Laos or Hmong? Don’t worry…Laos is no longer itself. The next 50-100 years, you will see more Vietnamese than Laotian. Loas has sold a land in Vientiane to the Chinese already.
Remember when Col. Bill Lair asked VP “If the Meo were armed, would they try to become autonomous, or would they be loyal to the Laotian government?” His answer was…” I am loyal to the King of Laos.”
Did you know that VP even built a Lao temple and invited Lao monks to Long Cheng. Again, he even built a vacation home for the King. Did any of your Lao Lum generals had done such? At the last moment after visiting Souvanna, he went to see the King and asked the His Majesty the King to leave the country, but was turned down. That showed how much he cared about the King!
Please do more research and come back and we’ll talk more.
Lan Xang forever
Hmong guy
Does anyone here believe in KARMA? Well GVP will have his day in court. All of the bad deeds he has done in the past has finally caught up with him. One would have to be of the rank of at least a Major or Colonel in order to see some real MULA. Sorry to say that front line soldiers are a dime a dozen, a mere pawn, a prion. I actually attended quite a few fundraising freedom fighting rallies where GVP was the guest of honor. What a JOKE! How are you going to overthrow any existing governments anywhere with a mere budget of $10 million dollars?
Hi Lao Guy:
You are maybe a true Lao Guy…and true LPDR…every one or enthic in a country has voice to their government. Let me tell you a bit about Lao History…Lao get Independent from France…Laos have many leaders
and parties that uneducate capeble to build the democratic system. Those leaders are Souvanaphouma, Boua ouam, Souphanouvong, Gen Phoumi,
Gen Taoma, Gen Kong Le, and other Lao leaders fail to form a coalition government beacause Vietnam is Lao's brother like you mention. Laos will be poorest forever [deleted]…I believe that the Thai will be more true Brother to Laos than Vietnam, but you Lao guy are not follow Thai footprint. In Laos now LPDR control over 30 years stiil list poorest country no jobs for it citizens, 80 to 90% people in Laos are farmers.
No is No Free Lunch but in USA there are more way to find lunch but in Laos it is hard for the people in Laos find lunch it depend on internation fund and support. Lao guy you are need more education…in order to help your country.
[Democracy, there are better ways to make a point then name-calling. PS: just in case you are going to call someone a 'dummy', try to spell it correctly. Atleast I'll think you are smarter as I delete it….. – Admin Singh]