Multiculturalism: Canada’s Biggest Mistake?
This week the National Post launched a series about “Canada’s Biggest Mistakes.” Written by different columnists, yesterday’s big mistake was deficit spending. In
today’s installment of the “top 5,” columnist Barbara Kay sets her sights on multiculturalism.
I must admit I am not an avid reader of the National Post. In fact, I don’t think I had ever even heard of it prior to this column. However, Wikipedia informs me that it is a “voice for Canadian conservatives.” A brief perusal of Kay’s biggest hits, including as “Hug the Earth, kill the humans, ” “Barack Obama’s selective silence on his racist pastor, Jeremiah Wright,” and “The College Campus: Anti-Semitism’s last North American Refuge and Taking Back the Campus” helps me situate her on a political spectrum. In America, we call her David Horowitz and Bill O’Reilly. Well, enough of that, let us try to engage the substance of her argument.
Kay doesn’t mince her words on her stand:
Multiculturalism is Canada’s greatest mistake, but if it is any consolation, it is every western country’s greatest mistake. And now some of them are paying a terrible price.
Glibly, she is our shining light that cuts through the darkness:
The happy surface of multiculturalism is a street-enlivening diversity of skin hues, native fabrics, with a panoply of foreign cuisines on every corner — schwarma, pad thai, falafel, tandoori goat — not to mention the feel-good, meticulously painted-by-number rainbow of visible minorities one sees working in government agencies, non-profit organizations and university equity offices.
However, Kay tells us the reality:
Multiculturalism is idealistic in theory, but its real effect has been the entrenchment in our intellectual and cultural elites of an unhealthy obsession with a largely phantom racism amongst heritage Canadians that no amount of penance or cultural self-effacement can ever transcend.
In its ideological insistence on the equal value of all cultures other than ours (ours being the sole inferior one), multiculturalism’s main “accomplishment” has been to instill self-loathing in heritage Canadians, a sense of responsibility-free entitlement in identity groups, and the suffocation of critical diversity in the public form.
For Kay, it is a zero-sum game. Identity groups having pride in their heritage can only come about with the self-loathing of ‘heritage Canadians’ (translation: goray). However, this is the problem, for Kay only heritage Canadians are asli Canadians. She fails to see that multiculturalism was not merely a policy, but it was (and is) the Canadian reality. All Canadians benefit politically, morally, and economically from its vast immigrant populations. Helping them integrate sections of new Canadians into the general populace should be continued and celebrated.
Kay sense of history seems especially suspect, when she writes:
Even though Canada was a colony itself, and had never indulged in imperialism of any kind, Canadians were informed they must share in the blame because of their religious, racial and cultural association with former colonialists.
Although I am sure “first nations” Canadians may have a very different memory. Kay’s ideas seem to have a special virulence with the post 9/11 climate and the “War on Terr-a” (btw, doesn’t terra mean earth?). This seems to be exactly what is on Kay’s mind, in her examples:
“You can be a Pakistani al-Qaeda supporter first and a Canadian second, a Hindu-hostile Sikh first and a Canadian second, an aboriginal, a woman, a black or a gay first and a Canadian second — really, the personal being the political, as moral relativists are so fond of repeating — Canada: it’s all about you, you, you.”
But this is the continuing problem, not only in Canada, but also in other areas such as the United States. Those on the right side of the political spectrum take a certain ‘nativist’ tone and harp on a loss of ‘values.’ In America, this refers to the ambiguous “Judeo-Christian heritage” and I am assuming in Canada it also means something similar. However this critique is not limited to only a ‘nativist’ sentiment, but I have heard it espoused by assimilated immigrants as well (I use the word assimilated on purpose). In a comment on a previously discussed article, an internet commenter named Pradip Francis Rodrigues, from Mississauga, wrote:
Hats off to Jasmeet Sidhu for exposing the hypocrisy of South Asian culture. It has been an unending source of grief for many second-generation kids whose parents fulminate against the perceived depravity of Western culture that seemingly threatens their values….Unfortunately for many like Sidhu, her parents’ generation came here (they still do) clinging to their own culture.
Despite Kay’s criticism, I think the way out is greater cultural pluralism. The day ‘heritage Canadians’ (to borrow from Kay’s stupid terminology) no longer see the Sikh kirpan or the Muslim’s hijab as something foreign, but rather as something very much Canadian will be a great day for Canada.
Similar to Lal, I believe we do see ‘legal pluralism’ in the courts of Canada and the United States. However ‘legal pluralism’ are merely court verdicts and parliamentary/congressional laws and bills that offer some legal support to minorities, but are constantly and continuously contested. Legal pluralism is temporary. The real meaning of ‘legal pluralism’ only enforces the supremacy that is given to the state to make all decisions.
What we need is actual ‘cultural pluralism.’ Cultural pluralism will occur when Canadians or Americans see the Muslim hijab or the Sikh kirpan as not something foreign or belonging to only a specific community, but rather a cultural and religious marker of members of its own society. What is your take?
120 Responses to “Multiculturalism: Canada’s Biggest Mistake?”
Permit me for asking 2 questions from an uninformed vantage point:
Why should the rights of Canadian immigrants who reached the land they call home a few hundred years ago, take prioirty over immigrants who reached the land (en masse) decades ago?
Surely multiculturalism began when the native Canadian peoples were 'westernised' from their 'savage' ways?
Permit me for asking 2 questions from an uninformed vantage point:
Why should the rights of Canadian immigrants who reached the land they call home a few hundred years ago, take prioirty over immigrants who reached the land (en masse) decades ago?
Surely multiculturalism began when the native Canadian peoples were ‘westernised’ from their ‘savage’ ways?
wow this is horribly racist stuff…indeed very david horowitz et al. simply embracing/promoting pluralism or diversity isn't enough. we gotta fight against systemic racism (and other forms of oppression) and truly change power relationships in society.
wow this is horribly racist stuff…indeed very david horowitz et al. simply embracing/promoting pluralism or diversity isn’t enough. we gotta fight against systemic racism (and other forms of oppression) and truly change power relationships in society.
Harveer Singh: Points well-taken.
Sonny: What is your suggested program for fighting systematic racism? More legal battles?
Harveer Singh: Points well-taken.
Sonny: What is your suggested program for fighting systematic racism? More legal battles?
[quote comment="1571"]Permit me for asking 2 questions from an uninformed vantage point:
Why should the rights of Canadian immigrants who reached the land they call home a few hundred years ago, take prioirty over immigrants who reached the land (en masse) decades ago?
Surely multiculturalism began when the native Canadian peoples were 'westernised' from their 'savage' ways?[/quote]
OMG, what ARE they teaching at university level with respect to Native North American Indians. For one, we were NEVER savages. We lived in peace & harmony and took care of the earth long before any immigrant stepped foot on our shores. We had a well-run government without all the hypocricy and self-centredness that you see now. Even our history books tell lies because they are told from only one point of view: the caucasian race!
Wait until they start picking on another race. Us Indians have been living in this oppressive, greedy culture for generations and don't expect it to stop now that more immigrants are coming to take what is left. We don't mind though because from our cultural point of view our Creator is just weeding out those that are too greedy. So, I welcome you to Canada, and to the greedy culture. I hope it doesn't swallow you up like it has done to so many other immigrants. Live in peace with each other and we'll all be fine. There is an old saying my Indian Elders use to say and warn us about, it goes like this:
Another people shall come, from beyond the salt water, which will take the lands away from the Indian peoples and, by means of a drink, try to erase their minds.
The Old ones used to say that that drink was snake blood.
They knew that the Indian would accept this drink from that stranger and that they would thus die in great numbers, to the point of almost becoming extinct, but that in a future time, soon after a time when machines would start carrying men in the sky, the Native people would give back to the stranger the ill-fated drink and would begin to walk straight once more, to think correctly and to play a dignified and most beneficial role in the world. We have arrived at that time.
I read the National Post from time to time and I can tell you that Barbara Kay is not a good writer at all. Her articles are clearly only targeted for a certain segment of the Canadian population (e.g. Caucasians). She writes racist articles, while at the same time denying that racism exists in society. Clearly she hasn't read her own stuff.
Debating multiculturalism is fine, but I wouldn't include Barbaray Kay in that debate as she doesn't have much to add in value.
I read the National Post from time to time and I can tell you that Barbara Kay is not a good writer at all. Her articles are clearly only targeted for a certain segment of the Canadian population (e.g. Caucasians). She writes racist articles, while at the same time denying that racism exists in society. Clearly she hasn’t read her own stuff.
Debating multiculturalism is fine, but I wouldn’t include Barbaray Kay in that debate as she doesn’t have much to add in value.
[quote comment=”1571″]Permit me for asking 2 questions from an uninformed vantage point:
Why should the rights of Canadian immigrants who reached the land they call home a few hundred years ago, take prioirty over immigrants who reached the land (en masse) decades ago?
Surely multiculturalism began when the native Canadian peoples were ‘westernised’ from their ‘savage’ ways?[/quote]
OMG, what ARE they teaching at university level with respect to Native North American Indians. For one, we were NEVER savages. We lived in peace & harmony and took care of the earth long before any immigrant stepped foot on our shores. We had a well-run government without all the hypocricy and self-centredness that you see now. Even our history books tell lies because they are told from only one point of view: the caucasian race!
Wait until they start picking on another race. Us Indians have been living in this oppressive, greedy culture for generations and don’t expect it to stop now that more immigrants are coming to take what is left. We don’t mind though because from our cultural point of view our Creator is just weeding out those that are too greedy. So, I welcome you to Canada, and to the greedy culture. I hope it doesn’t swallow you up like it has done to so many other immigrants. Live in peace with each other and we’ll all be fine. There is an old saying my Indian Elders use to say and warn us about, it goes like this:
Another people shall come, from beyond the salt water, which will take the lands away from the Indian peoples and, by means of a drink, try to erase their minds.
The Old ones used to say that that drink was snake blood.
They knew that the Indian would accept this drink from that stranger and that they would thus die in great numbers, to the point of almost becoming extinct, but that in a future time, soon after a time when machines would start carrying men in the sky, the Native people would give back to the stranger the ill-fated drink and would begin to walk straight once more, to think correctly and to play a dignified and most beneficial role in the world. We have arrived at that time.
Lynn Pambrun you wrote: "OMG, what ARE they teaching at university level with respect to Native North American Indians. For one, we were NEVER savages."
I don't think Harveer Singh meant that us brown/blacks are actually savages in the literal meaning. It seems as if he said it to show what whites have been refering to us as.
It seems like your Native American, the story you tell is very interesting.
I think the conservative whites are just upset because America's starting to turn brown again. We might be a different kind of brown but we're all made of the same soil, and some of us are still wise enough to recognize that.
Lynn Pambrun you wrote: “OMG, what ARE they teaching at university level with respect to Native North American Indians. For one, we were NEVER savages.”
I don’t think Harveer Singh meant that us brown/blacks are actually savages in the literal meaning. It seems as if he said it to show what whites have been refering to us as.
It seems like your Native American, the story you tell is very interesting.
I think the conservative whites are just upset because America’s starting to turn brown again. We might be a different kind of brown but we’re all made of the same soil, and some of us are still wise enough to recognize that.
Re: Lynn Pambrun, my apologies if any offence was caused, my sarcasm didn't some off too well! kprincess got it right, I was actually referring to the manner in which imperialist Europeans tend to think that they gave civilised society to the many nations of this Earth when they invaded and took control. South-East Asia suffered the same fate as the North American natives did, but to a much lesser extent. In my understanding native americans lived a truly efficient lifestyle in tune with the Earth, which was totally destroyed upon the arrival of the British, French and Mediterraneans. Today they speak of their heritage in a nation which they usurped from others, the hypocrisy knows no bounds!
Re: Lynn Pambrun, my apologies if any offence was caused, my sarcasm didn’t some off too well! kprincess got it right, I was actually referring to the manner in which imperialist Europeans tend to think that they gave civilised society to the many nations of this Earth when they invaded and took control. South-East Asia suffered the same fate as the North American natives did, but to a much lesser extent. In my understanding native americans lived a truly efficient lifestyle in tune with the Earth, which was totally destroyed upon the arrival of the British, French and Mediterraneans. Today they speak of their heritage in a nation which they usurped from others, the hypocrisy knows no bounds!
The population of Toronto and Vancouver make up close to 8 million with 3.5 millions minorities with about 800,000 of them being South Asian.
But the rest of Canada has about 25 million with 2 million minorities with about 400,000 south asians.
I grow up in small town 7 hours east of Vancouver in which the whole area had about 60,000 people with about 25 south asian families[mostly punjabi's] and rest of the area was 98% white. My parents came in the early 70's from Punjab and moved there less then year after coming to Canada and have been there for almost 35 years. My parents have never any problems with racism. They have many friends that they made when they 1st came and still are friends.
Now compare that to place like Surrey many newcomers move to an all punjabi neighborhood and make no effort to learn about the culture or make friends of other backgrounds.
I'm tired of people in the punjabi community play the native card. Since when did people in the punjabi community start caring the native people.
I'm really sorry about what happened to the native community. But it was the Britsh and French that bulit this country into what it is today. Canada is one of the best country in the world and one of the most welcoming to new immigrants.
One thing I find really funny is that the same people who support multicultrism here. I wonder how they feel about it in the Punjab. Last time I checked. Many people from other parts of India, many of them of low caste are moving to the Punjab to work. Many punjabi's in the west are upset that these newcomers are not adapting to there culture. They are also worried the sikh population in Punjab is down to 52% and wants sikh's to have more kids.
I’m tired of people in the punjabi community play the native card. Since when did people in the punjabi community start caring the native people.
I’m really sorry about what happened to the native community. But it was the Britsh and French that bulit this country into what it is today. Canada is one of the best country in the world and one of the most welcoming to new immigrants.
One thing I find really funny is that the same people who support multicultrism here. I wonder how they feel about it in the Punjab. Last time I checked. Many people from other parts of India, many of them of low caste are moving to the Punjab to work. Many punjabi’s in the west are upset that these newcomers are not adapting to there culture. They are also worried the sikh population in Punjab is down to 52% and wants sikh’s to have more kids.
Suki: I have heard the "love it or leave it" argument many times. However, I do find it most amusing when it comes from members of our own community.
As far as hypocrisy, I wrote this article and do not see a problem with immigrants from UP and Bihar (locally called bhaiya) coming to Punjab. They are from a different region, not 'low caste' as you seem to refer to them.
Like you, I hope that Punjabis in Canada do learn about the culture of other Canadians. However, I hope that other Canadians learn about the culture of Sikh Canadians as they are just as Canadian as any other Canadian!
The population of Toronto and Vancouver make up close to 8 million with 3.5 millions minorities with about 800,000 of them being South Asian.
But the rest of Canada has about 25 million with 2 million minorities with about 400,000 south asians.
I grow up in small town 7 hours east of Vancouver in which the whole area had about 60,000 people with about 25 south asian families[mostly punjabi’s] and rest of the area was 98% white. My parents came in the early 70’s from Punjab and moved there less then year after coming to Canada and have been there for almost 35 years. My parents have never any problems with racism. They have many friends that they made when they 1st came and still are friends.
Now compare that to place like Surrey many newcomers move to an all punjabi neighborhood and make no effort to learn about the culture or make friends of other backgrounds.
As far as hypocrisy, I wrote this article and do not see a problem with immigrants from UP and Bihar (locally called bhaiya) coming to Punjab. They are from a different region, not ‘low caste’ as you seem to refer to them.
I wasn't talking about you. But I have heard many ethnic punjabi's and seen on other sikh websites complaining about bhaiya, and other newcomers to the Punjab.
Like you, I hope that Punjabis in Canada do learn about the culture of other Canadians. However, I hope that other Canadians learn about the culture of Sikh Canadians as they are just as Canadian as any other Canadian!
But how many cultures would you have to learn. The problem is that most Punjabi's when they come to Canada move to Toronto or Vancouver area and live like they are still are in 1950's punjab. Alot of the newcomers are from the village and not very educated.
This is article about Calgary Muslim professor named Mahfooz Kanwar which better explains how I feel.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GU…
Suki: I have heard the “love it or leave it” argument many times. However, I do find it most amusing when it comes from members of our own community.
As far as hypocrisy, I wrote this article and do not see a problem with immigrants from UP and Bihar (locally called bhaiya) coming to Punjab. They are from a different region, not ‘low caste’ as you seem to refer to them.
Like you, I hope that Punjabis in Canada do learn about the culture of other Canadians. However, I hope that other Canadians learn about the culture of Sikh Canadians as they are just as Canadian as any other Canadian!
As far as hypocrisy, I wrote this article and do not see a problem with immigrants from UP and Bihar (locally called bhaiya) coming to Punjab. They are from a different region, not ‘low caste’ as you seem to refer to them.
I wasn’t talking about you. But I have heard many ethnic punjabi’s and seen on other sikh websites complaining about bhaiya, and other newcomers to the Punjab.
Like you, I hope that Punjabis in Canada do learn about the culture of other Canadians. However, I hope that other Canadians learn about the culture of Sikh Canadians as they are just as Canadian as any other Canadian!
But how many cultures would you have to learn. The problem is that most Punjabi’s when they come to Canada move to Toronto or Vancouver area and live like they are still are in 1950’s punjab. Alot of the newcomers are from the village and not very educated.
This is article about Calgary Muslim professor named Mahfooz Kanwar which better explains how I feel.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=FF83F470-CF4B-4ABA-832D-8A74910DDAFF
Suki,
You wrote
While your comment first struck me as completely assinine and un-educated, I am, admittedly, not the sharpest tool in the shed so may have missed the thrust of your statement. Hopefully you can clarify your comment.
Exactly when did the British and French finish building Canada? Is Canada completed? Was Canada completed with the Royal Proclamation of 1763? Or was it completed in 1867, with the British North America Act? Or was it 1982, with the Canada Act?
Is there some particular, concrete time that Canada stopped developing, and became this Canada that the "British and French built"?
If so, please provide the date. Once you've done that, please indicate HOW the British and French built Canada? Also, please explain why the contributions of the Chinese, the Sikhs, the Italians, the Irish, and other immigrants are not considered in the building of Canada.
How about the First Nations in Canada? Did they play a role in building Canada? Surely the treaties they've signed with Canada, and the special rights afforded to them by Canada indicate they played some small part in building Canada – no?
Heck, you're from BC so must be aware that most of BC is contested land with the First Nations, and that treaties still need to be signed – treaties which further shape/re-shape British Columbia and consequently the Canada we know. How do you reconcile the development of British Columbia pursuant to treaties with the First Nations, with your statement that indicates Canada has stopped developing and was built by the British and French? Doesn't the changing landscape of Canada indicate Canada is, in fact, not a concrete, static entity, but is continuing to evolve and change?
If that is true, then do not even newly arriving immigrants to Canada change the landscape and culture of Canada to some degree? Do they not also contribute to Canada's continuing evolution as a country? Is one immigrant's contribution to Canada considered better than another immigrant's contribution, because he happened to contribute in 1890 as opposed to 1990?
Is the culture of Canada's earliest immigrants to reign supreme by virue of being in Canada longest?
Hmmm….your family only arrived in Canada in the 1970's….my family has been in Canada for over a century…does that make my family's culture and way of doing things superior and more 'Canadian' than yours?
Maybe Punjabis complain about people moving into Punjab because they often feel discriminated against in India. I recently went to india and some of my relatives were saying how they can't go outside of punjab and own property, but non-punjabis can own property in punjab. I'm not saying that punjabis don't discriminate, but I think at times there's a reason for some of the frustration they express. If we're not so loving to non-punjabis, then it might partaly have to do w/ the fact that india hasn't been prefect to us.
As for the uneducated punjabis in canada, i know that there are a lot of punajbis who arrive there. But hey, not everyone's gonna come into canada w/ a PHD. I'm sure there are plenty of uneducated goray there as well. Also, just because you're from a village and haven't attended a formal educational institution doesn't mean your completely "uneducated." My mom never went to school but she's the wisest woman I know of. More so than any of my professors or other peers. Just cuz you've gone to a university and beyond doesn't mean you're the smartest. College doesn't teach you everything.
I totally support multiculturalism, wouldn't it be hypocritical not to in this age of globalization? So you can eat Chinese food, wear indian style clothes, listen to hip-hop, but you don't wanna have to learn anything about their culture.
Also, Suki. maybe you never had problems w/ racism because you've had others to pave the road for you. I know I have a lot less problems w/ racism in California cuz I had the Blacks, Latinos, and Asians like Martin Luther King, Cesar Chavez and many others fight for the rights that I am currently exercising.
Maybe Punjabis complain about people moving into Punjab because they often feel discriminated against in India. I recently went to india and some of my relatives were saying how they can’t go outside of punjab and own property, but non-punjabis can own property in punjab. I’m not saying that punjabis don’t discriminate, but I think at times there’s a reason for some of the frustration they express. If we’re not so loving to non-punjabis, then it might partaly have to do w/ the fact that india hasn’t been prefect to us.
As for the uneducated punjabis in canada, i know that there are a lot of punajbis who arrive there. But hey, not everyone’s gonna come into canada w/ a PHD. I’m sure there are plenty of uneducated goray there as well. Also, just because you’re from a village and haven’t attended a formal educational institution doesn’t mean your completely “uneducated.” My mom never went to school but she’s the wisest woman I know of. More so than any of my professors or other peers. Just cuz you’ve gone to a university and beyond doesn’t mean you’re the smartest. College doesn’t teach you everything.
I totally support multiculturalism, wouldn’t it be hypocritical not to in this age of globalization? So you can eat Chinese food, wear indian style clothes, listen to hip-hop, but you don’t wanna have to learn anything about their culture.
Also, Suki. maybe you never had problems w/ racism because you’ve had others to pave the road for you. I know I have a lot less problems w/ racism in California cuz I had the Blacks, Latinos, and Asians like Martin Luther King, Cesar Chavez and many others fight for the rights that I am currently exercising.
Suki,
You wrote
While your comment first struck me as completely assinine and un-educated, I am, admittedly, not the sharpest tool in the shed so may have missed the thrust of your statement. Hopefully you can clarify your comment.
Exactly when did the British and French finish building Canada? Is Canada completed? Was Canada completed with the Royal Proclamation of 1763? Or was it completed in 1867, with the British North America Act? Or was it 1982, with the Canada Act?
Is there some particular, concrete time that Canada stopped developing, and became this Canada that the “British and French built”?
If so, please provide the date. Once you’ve done that, please indicate HOW the British and French built Canada? Also, please explain why the contributions of the Chinese, the Sikhs, the Italians, the Irish, and other immigrants are not considered in the building of Canada.
How about the First Nations in Canada? Did they play a role in building Canada? Surely the treaties they’ve signed with Canada, and the special rights afforded to them by Canada indicate they played some small part in building Canada – no?
Heck, you’re from BC so must be aware that most of BC is contested land with the First Nations, and that treaties still need to be signed – treaties which further shape/re-shape British Columbia and consequently the Canada we know. How do you reconcile the development of British Columbia pursuant to treaties with the First Nations, with your statement that indicates Canada has stopped developing and was built by the British and French? Doesn’t the changing landscape of Canada indicate Canada is, in fact, not a concrete, static entity, but is continuing to evolve and change?
If that is true, then do not even newly arriving immigrants to Canada change the landscape and culture of Canada to some degree? Do they not also contribute to Canada’s continuing evolution as a country? Is one immigrant’s contribution to Canada considered better than another immigrant’s contribution, because he happened to contribute in 1890 as opposed to 1990?
Is the culture of Canada’s earliest immigrants to reign supreme by virue of being in Canada longest?
Hmmm….your family only arrived in Canada in the 1970’s….my family has been in Canada for over a century…does that make my family’s culture and way of doing things superior and more ‘Canadian’ than yours?
Unlike sonny, I didn't find anything 'horribly racist' about this article.
I think many ethnic minorities, not just Sikhs, are too quick to play the racism card in discussions.
Whilst I might not agree with everything that Suki says, I do agree with him about how there are some people who don't integrate at all, and actually have contempt for the society they live within, in some pockets of the Sikh community. These are people who treat their children as if they should live by the morality of the Punjabi village. They claim all the benefits of multiculturalism in order to assert and protect their identity, but if you were to bring home a white or Hindu partner……well, you know the rest. So much for 'multiculturalism'
If you don't acknowledge this hypocrisy and oppression, I don't think you're being honest.
Where I disagree with Suki is that I don't think most Sikhs are like that. It might take time, but I do believe everyone has the potential to adjust and the actual process of acculturation takes time, maybe a couple of generations. But it does happen.
However, I do believe that at both a grassroots level, and a political level, there is nothing wrong with questioning assumptions on multiculturalism, especially within insular and hypocritical situations in which children are raised within oppressive cultural boundaries.
Unlike sonny, I didn’t find anything ‘horribly racist’ about this article.
I think many ethnic minorities, not just Sikhs, are too quick to play the racism card in discussions.
Whilst I might not agree with everything that Suki says, I do agree with him about how there are some people who don’t integrate at all, and actually have contempt for the society they live within, in some pockets of the Sikh community. These are people who treat their children as if they should live by the morality of the Punjabi village. They claim all the benefits of multiculturalism in order to assert and protect their identity, but if you were to bring home a white or Hindu partner……well, you know the rest. So much for ‘multiculturalism’
If you don’t acknowledge this hypocrisy and oppression, I don’t think you’re being honest.
Where I disagree with Suki is that I don’t think most Sikhs are like that. It might take time, but I do believe everyone has the potential to adjust and the actual process of acculturation takes time, maybe a couple of generations. But it does happen.
However, I do believe that at both a grassroots level, and a political level, there is nothing wrong with questioning assumptions on multiculturalism, especially within insular and hypocritical situations in which children are raised within oppressive cultural boundaries.
well, aren't we lucky. I guess we get to see it from both sides. the discrimination based on caste, color (not being light enough) sex (being a girl), region on the punjabi side. and discrimination based on religion (like wearing a turban), color, race from the american/canadian side.
I've had some white people tell me that all people are racist. Yes, there's some racism among all races. Latinos, blacks, asians. but I think it's completely different when you hold political power to act on those beliefs and have a history of acting on them (like slavery, separate but equal, & so on).
Also, just cuz one side is doing it isn't a justification for the other side to discriminate. Yes, there's a lot of discrimination going on among punjabis but that doesn't mean this should give the others a green light to push their racist views. two wrongs don't make a right. Yeah, i pull out the race card now (why shouldn't I if clearly see discrimination) & then, but i do it on both sides.
Seeing the racism in other communities, rather than avoiding it, has helped me realize the racism in our own community.
well, aren’t we lucky. I guess we get to see it from both sides. the discrimination based on caste, color (not being light enough) sex (being a girl), region on the punjabi side. and discrimination based on religion (like wearing a turban), color, race from the american/canadian side.
I’ve had some white people tell me that all people are racist. Yes, there’s some racism among all races. Latinos, blacks, asians. but I think it’s completely different when you hold political power to act on those beliefs and have a history of acting on them (like slavery, separate but equal, & so on).
Also, just cuz one side is doing it isn’t a justification for the other side to discriminate. Yes, there’s a lot of discrimination going on among punjabis but that doesn’t mean this should give the others a green light to push their racist views. two wrongs don’t make a right. Yeah, i pull out the race card now (why shouldn’t I if clearly see discrimination) & then, but i do it on both sides.
Seeing the racism in other communities, rather than avoiding it, has helped me realize the racism in our own community.
They claim all the benefits of multiculturalism in order to assert and protect their identity, but if you were to bring home a white or Hindu partner……well, you know the rest. So much for ‘multiculturalism’
A few years ago just outside of Surrey a young girl named Amandeep Atwal was killed for having a boyfriend of first nations background by her father. Yet there was very little outrage in the punjabi community.
Suki,
Are you kidding me? Every Punjabi Sikh I spoke to was disgusted with the crime. There was nothing but condemnation for this murder on local radio stations/talk show programs. Do you live in BC? If so, how could you miss this?
Jag,
You wrote:
I understand what you're trying to say, but I'm pretty sure the government policy of multiculturalism did not have the promotion of inter-racial relationships as one of its objectives. As such, I don't see hypocrisy in someone claiming the benefits available to them under the policy of multiculturalism and that same person's reluctance to accept inter-racial relationships in their family.
However, outside the scope of multiculturalism as a policy, I do agree with you that inter-caste, inter-racial relationships still have some level of stigma attached to them, and that there is little justifying such base discrimination.
ps. Next time you're in Vancouver, take a trip out to The Vancouver Club (used to be exclusively white a few years back), or The Yacht Club and try to imagine how some of these gentlefolk would react if their daughter brought home a sardar 😉 This particular sword cuts both ways.
They claim all the benefits of multiculturalism in order to assert and protect their identity, but if you were to bring home a white or Hindu partner……well, you know the rest. So much for ‘multiculturalism’
A few years ago just outside of Surrey a young girl named Amandeep Atwal was killed for having a boyfriend of first nations background by her father. Yet there was very little outrage in the punjabi community.
Suki,
Are you kidding me? Every Punjabi Sikh I spoke to was disgusted with the crime. There was nothing but condemnation for this murder on local radio stations/talk show programs. Do you live in BC? If so, how could you miss this?
Jag,
You wrote:
I understand what you’re trying to say, but I’m pretty sure the government policy of multiculturalism did not have the promotion of inter-racial relationships as one of its objectives. As such, I don’t see hypocrisy in someone claiming the benefits available to them under the policy of multiculturalism and that same person’s reluctance to accept inter-racial relationships in their family.
However, outside the scope of multiculturalism as a policy, I do agree with you that inter-caste, inter-racial relationships still have some level of stigma attached to them, and that there is little justifying such base discrimination.
ps. Next time you’re in Vancouver, take a trip out to The Vancouver Club (used to be exclusively white a few years back), or The Yacht Club and try to imagine how some of these gentlefolk would react if their daughter brought home a sardar 😉 This particular sword cuts both ways.
ps. Next time you’re in Vancouver, take a trip out to The Vancouver Club (used to be exclusively white a few years back), or The Yacht Club and try to imagine how some of these gentlefolk would react if their daughter brought home a sardar 😉 This particular sword cuts both ways.
They may not be happy. But they won't kill there daughter.
The United States does not have multicultrism. Yet the Sikh and the whole south asian community seems to be doing well. Many of even called the Indo-American community the model minority.
Suki,
Mind your projections. The horrendous act of Amandeep's father was condemned by most. It was the act of a depraved man that could believe his 'honor' was more important than his daughter's life. Most Sikhs could never conceive of such a thing. Similarly, while as you say:
so if it does occur, should we condemn their entire community? Interesting that this too shows how you do not consider Sikh-Canadians as 'normal' Canadians. If a Canadian (supposedly meaning gora) commits a horrible act, then he/she acted as an individual. If a Sikh Canadian commits a horrible act, then somehow they are a 'representative' of the community.
Suki wrote:
…and with that brilliant, and insightful statement, you've flushed away any credibility you may have had. Look it go – swirling, and swirling, and gone. Cheers.
ps. Next time you’re in Vancouver, take a trip out to The Vancouver Club (used to be exclusively white a few years back), or The Yacht Club and try to imagine how some of these gentlefolk would react if their daughter brought home a sardar 😉 This particular sword cuts both ways.
They may not be happy. But they won’t kill there daughter.
Mewa Singh,
On hindsight, my last comment seems redundant. You said it all, and much more eloquently.
The United States does not have multicultrism. Yet the Sikh and the whole south asian community seems to be doing well. Many of even called the Indo-American community the model minority.
Suki,
Mind your projections. The horrendous act of Amandeep’s father was condemned by most. It was the act of a depraved man that could believe his ‘honor’ was more important than his daughter’s life. Most Sikhs could never conceive of such a thing. Similarly, while as you say:
so if it does occur, should we condemn their entire community? Interesting that this too shows how you do not consider Sikh-Canadians as ‘normal’ Canadians. If a Canadian (supposedly meaning gora) commits a horrible act, then he/she acted as an individual. If a Sikh Canadian commits a horrible act, then somehow they are a ‘representative’ of the community.
Suki wrote:
…and with that brilliant, and insightful statement, you’ve flushed away any credibility you may have had. Look it go – swirling, and swirling, and gone. Cheers.
Mewa Singh,
On hindsight, my last comment seems redundant. You said it all, and much more eloquently.
[quote comment="1682"]The United States does not have multicultrism. Yet the Sikh and the whole south asian community seems to be doing well. Many of even called the Indo-American community the model minority.[/quote]
what? Have you heard of NY, Chicago, California?? Have you been to the Bay area, Yuba City?? It's as multicultural as you can get.
You're naming a place that's a perfect example of multiculturalism but yet labeling as non-multicultural.
Yes, we're called the model minority at times, but still face a lot of discrimination. The same Sikh model citizens have also been called terrorists just cuz of their mistaken identity.
[quote comment=”1682″]The United States does not have multicultrism. Yet the Sikh and the whole south asian community seems to be doing well. Many of even called the Indo-American community the model minority.[/quote]
what? Have you heard of NY, Chicago, California?? Have you been to the Bay area, Yuba City?? It’s as multicultural as you can get.
You’re naming a place that’s a perfect example of multiculturalism but yet labeling as non-multicultural.
Yes, we’re called the model minority at times, but still face a lot of discrimination. The same Sikh model citizens have also been called terrorists just cuz of their mistaken identity.
Even in the UK, here we have the mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, claiming somewhat disingenuously that multiculturalism was "one of the greatest achievements of my administration." True Livingstone often upheld it (although this links he excluded those that are LGBT), I doubt it was his achievement alone.
[…] my earlier discussion on multiculturalism put forth some of my thoughts, an interesting news item caught my interest yesterday. I guess this […]
Even in the UK, here we have the mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, claiming somewhat disingenuously that multiculturalism was “one of the greatest achievements of my administration.” True Livingstone often upheld it (although this links he excluded those that are LGBT), I doubt it was his achievement alone.
P.Singh,
I, like you, don't agree with Suki's ideas, but at the same time, let us make sure we only challenge ideas as opposed to making personal attacks or challenging their credibility (since he/she is only giving their opinion, not claiming any type of expertise or authority).
So back to Suki, but then if you agree that the type of immigrants that the United States, selectively brought to their country is generally of a higher educational background, then it will make sense why they better integrate — most are in professional classes and they came in with greater English-speaking abilities. Also, the integration of the American economy and its pull allows all groups to 'integrate' in the workplace, but do not think in their private lives there really is much mixing. So I wonder if it really is that different than most Canadians?
what? Have you heard of NY, Chicago, California?? Have you been to the Bay area, Yuba City?? It’s as multicultural as you can get.
You’re naming a place that’s a perfect example of multiculturalism but yet labeling as non-multicultural.
The population of those places may be multicultural, but the United States goverment does not have the policy of mulitcultrism. I have alot of family in the Bay Area, and they have a balance of keeping there culture and intergrated into American society, unlike here in Canada where most of them don't do that as much.
what? Have you heard of NY, Chicago, California?? Have you been to the Bay area, Yuba City?? It’s as multicultural as you can get.
You’re naming a place that’s a perfect example of multiculturalism but yet labeling as non-multicultural.
The population of those places may be multicultural, but the United States goverment does not have the policy of mulitcultrism. I have alot of family in the Bay Area, and they have a balance of keeping there culture and intergrated into American society, unlike here in Canada where most of them don’t do that as much.
Suki,
I wonder if that has more to do with the 'type' of immigrants that came to the United States due to a 'selective immigration' policy? Ethnic enclaves due exist, although amongst Punjabi they are less common.
wonder if that has more to do with the ‘type’ of immigrants that came to the United States due to a ’selective immigration’ policy? Ethnic enclaves due exist, although amongst Punjabi they are less common.
Yes the type of immigrant that come to America is more educated then to Canada from the South Asian/Middle Eastern part of the world. Other then central and Northern Califronia and Queens New York I don't know of any punjabi enclaves. There could be other that I don't know about.
But what is the sikh population in places like St.Louis,Denver,Cincinnati, Nashville and Pittsburgh and so on. The United States has so many major cities that most places sikh's don't stand out like Vancouver and Toronto. So they can't live in enclave and have to intergrate.
There about 400,000 sikhs in Canada and about 500,000 in the States.