Knock Knock At The Door: Ladoos or Missionaries?
As I was exiting the parking lot of a major grocery store in a heavily concentrated Punjabi area the other day, I saw in my rear-view mirror a woman wearing a salwar-kaamez and holding a Bible with two Indian boys dressed in their “Sunday best” and carrying leather book bags, while they approached a man with a friendly smile. How surprised was I to see a Jehovah’s Witness woman wearing Punjabi clothing while she and these two boys proselytized in this Punjabi-concentrated area.
A few weeks prior, a friend of mine who lives in this same area, shared with me the story of how her family was confused to find a Punjabi couple at their front door delivering the message of God as Jehovah’s Witnesses. She told me that after hearing the door bell she ran to the door and peeped out the window and saw a man wearing a coat-pant and a woman wearing a salwar-kameez. Instantly, she knew they were Jehovah’s Witnesses because of the Bible they were holding and the other paraphernalia in their hands. My friend hollered to her dad that there was an Auntie and Uncle ringing the door-bell, but they looked like Jehovah’s Witnesses so she wasn’t going to answer the door. However, her dad responded rightfully so, “ekaan thaa teekh nahi laghdhaa … ladoo na dhaan ai hon” (that doesn’t look right they might be here to give ladoos).
My friend thought twice and tried to convince her dad that no, it’s wasn’t just a Punjabi couple delivering ladoos, but Jehovah’s Witnesses targeting the Punjabi community. Also, who would deliver ladoos in a coat-pant! While her dad remained unconvinced she and her mom opened the door. Immediately the woman started speaking in Punjabi and “spreading God’s word”, while my friend and her mom tried to refute by reminding her that they were a Sikh family. However, the woman in the salwaar-kamaez continued with her spiel and their interaction ended after about ten minutes. After this encounter, one question frustratingly remained with my friend that she was unable to answer as a Sikh when asked by the Punjabi-speaking Jehovah’s Witness woman, “How as a Sikh do you think the world was created?” My friend told me that she had no answer. She knew about Sikh history, but had no clue what Sikhi’s stance was on this issue.
I am sure there are other young Sikhs who have encountered similar interactions with “missionaries” who question their faith. I know as a teenager when I was asked questions about Sikhi’s stance on being “saved” along with heaven and hell, I did not always have a concrete answer for evangelistic Christians and Jehovah’s Witnesses; but still had tremendous faith in Sikhi. I left those conversations frustrated with not having a concrete response to defend my faith. I also think about similar encounters my parents and other Aunties and Uncles have had in their workplaces or just going to the grocery store. With the addition of Punjabi speaking and suit-wearing “missionaries”, I wonder as a Sikh community how we plan to respond.
How do you think we should respond? What have your experiences been like with missionaries?
70 Responses to “Knock Knock At The Door: Ladoos or Missionaries?”
It is a free world and they have there duty to propogate their faith like a true follower.
You to are free to propogate your faith (though not as a duty) with Hams and Sandwiches and Pizzas in Bikinis/Jeans etc etc.
Grow up and dont suffer from insecurities of these trivial things of life.
There is one Heaven and it is on this EARTH for us all to make.
It is a free world and they have there duty to propogate their faith like a true follower.
You to are free to propogate your faith (though not as a duty) with Hams and Sandwiches and Pizzas in Bikinis/Jeans etc etc.
Grow up and dont suffer from insecurities of these trivial things of life.
There is one Heaven and it is on this EARTH for us all to make.
Harinder,
First, you are not free to propogate your faith with hams in bikinis if your faith is Sikhi. How does that make any sense?
I don't think Phulkari was speaking towards a personal insecurity — her questions are legitimate, and she used an anecdote to help personalize the account for us as readers. What I understood as her questions were the following:
1. How do we break down concept of Sikhi for Sikh youth?
2. How do we create understandable responses/explanations of our faith tradition in a predominantly Judeo-Christian country?
I know that the first time I explained there was no concept of heaven/hell (in the same way as is imagined in the U.S. thanks to Dante's Inferno), my [Christian] friends simply could not comprehend what an alternative would mean. Similarly, explaining that one could accept Jesus as a prophet or messenger of God but reject the idea that he was the physical manifestation of God was also foreign. I was lucky that I had these explanations available at a young age, and that my parents had thought of teaching us ways of dealing with prosletyzation. It's not always the same case for other young Sikhs, and the outcome can be confusing. I think sharing strategies and experiences could be helpful for other mentors and parents of young Sikhs who want their children to feel prepared for confronting the lack of awareness that exists around Sikhi.
Well i think its most important for us to educate ourselves on our faith. One good way of doing this is actually teaching our youth and ourselves Sikh theology – reading SGGS, discussing bani, etc.
We would never claim to be doctors, engineers, lawyers, artist, journalist, and the like – without first having gained some academic knowledge of the profession – yet we can easily say that we are Sikhs and get frustrated when we are asked questions about the faith/profession.
That being said – I think events like these are great for catalyzing our community to challenge ourselves and learn about Sikhi. If this is what it takes to get people like myself and your friend to start thinking about Sikhi and searching for answers -then here here!
Harinder,
First, you are not free to propogate your faith with hams in bikinis if your faith is Sikhi. How does that make any sense?
I don’t think Phulkari was speaking towards a personal insecurity — her questions are legitimate, and she used an anecdote to help personalize the account for us as readers. What I understood as her questions were the following:
1. How do we break down concept of Sikhi for Sikh youth?
2. How do we create understandable responses/explanations of our faith tradition in a predominantly Judeo-Christian country?
I know that the first time I explained there was no concept of heaven/hell (in the same way as is imagined in the U.S. thanks to Dante’s Inferno), my [Christian] friends simply could not comprehend what an alternative would mean. Similarly, explaining that one could accept Jesus as a prophet or messenger of God but reject the idea that he was the physical manifestation of God was also foreign. I was lucky that I had these explanations available at a young age, and that my parents had thought of teaching us ways of dealing with prosletyzation. It’s not always the same case for other young Sikhs, and the outcome can be confusing. I think sharing strategies and experiences could be helpful for other mentors and parents of young Sikhs who want their children to feel prepared for confronting the lack of awareness that exists around Sikhi.
Well i think its most important for us to educate ourselves on our faith. One good way of doing this is actually teaching our youth and ourselves Sikh theology – reading SGGS, discussing bani, etc.
We would never claim to be doctors, engineers, lawyers, artist, journalist, and the like – without first having gained some academic knowledge of the profession – yet we can easily say that we are Sikhs and get frustrated when we are asked questions about the faith/profession.
That being said – I think events like these are great for catalyzing our community to challenge ourselves and learn about Sikhi. If this is what it takes to get people like myself and your friend to start thinking about Sikhi and searching for answers -then here here!
If you want to know how to respond, then that means you just want to have a good come back line to get the Christians off your door step. If you are questioning your beliefs, then this is the best place to start since, in the end, there cannot be thousands of "paths that lead to the same place." We all have the same blood, no matter what religion. There is only one God, despite what different people may call him. So, that would also mean that we all die the same way, we all have the same fate/future, and that this one God must have one way of worship that he approves of (since he makes the rules). If questioning your faith leads you to the proper "path" of truth, then more power to it.
If you want to know how to respond, then that means you just want to have a good come back line to get the Christians off your door step. If you are questioning your beliefs, then this is the best place to start since, in the end, there cannot be thousands of “paths that lead to the same place.” We all have the same blood, no matter what religion. There is only one God, despite what different people may call him. So, that would also mean that we all die the same way, we all have the same fate/future, and that this one God must have one way of worship that he approves of (since he makes the rules). If questioning your faith leads you to the proper “path” of truth, then more power to it.
Davinder,
So tell me what it the 'proper' path you speak of? Be straight up.
Davinder,
So tell me what it the ‘proper’ path you speak of? Be straight up.
-Davinder I believe Sikhi doesn't state there is a "proper" path to God or only one way of worship. Instead it says there are different paths (different religions), only one destination (only one God). If you consider yourself a Sikh, then hopefully you'll recognize the teachings of Sikhi as to that aspect.
When I was young, I didn't have answers to a lot of questions that people asked me. Like what kind of God do you believe in or why do guys not cut your hair. So when people asked me questions, whether it was to question my faith or just learn about it, if I was unaware, I just said I don't know. I didn't try to make anything up or come w/ a comeback. But the questioning did motivate me to go and learn about my religion.
So I guess the best way to handle is to say you don't know, and then go learn about it. After all we practice Sikhi – we're students/learners. There's no shame in saying you don't know, even in this world of information.
-Davinder I believe Sikhi doesn’t state there is a “proper” path to God or only one way of worship. Instead it says there are different paths (different religions), only one destination (only one God). If you consider yourself a Sikh, then hopefully you’ll recognize the teachings of Sikhi as to that aspect.
When I was young, I didn’t have answers to a lot of questions that people asked me. Like what kind of God do you believe in or why do guys not cut your hair. So when people asked me questions, whether it was to question my faith or just learn about it, if I was unaware, I just said I don’t know. I didn’t try to make anything up or come w/ a comeback. But the questioning did motivate me to go and learn about my religion.
So I guess the best way to handle is to say you don’t know, and then go learn about it. After all we practice Sikhi – we’re students/learners. There’s no shame in saying you don’t know, even in this world of information.
i was a vegetarian growing up, and one day just succumbed and ate some chicken fingers that BK gave me instead of the mozzarella sticks i ordered. (i was starving and honestly, had been thinking of eating some meat for a while for my health…a discussion for another time). anyways, project teammates i was with were kind of surprised and asked, "isn't that against your religion? what's going to happen?" i responded sarcastically that God was going to strike me down with lightening (and stared at the sky forebodingly. well, the sarcasm was lost and they took me seriously – that i was telling them what i believed would happen. since then i've realized that religious discussions regarding dharmic faiths with those unfamiliar with dharmic faiths should be conducted seriously and without sarcasm.
i was a vegetarian growing up, and one day just succumbed and ate some chicken fingers that BK gave me instead of the mozzarella sticks i ordered. (i was starving and honestly, had been thinking of eating some meat for a while for my health…a discussion for another time). anyways, project teammates i was with were kind of surprised and asked, “isn’t that against your religion? what’s going to happen?” i responded sarcastically that God was going to strike me down with lightening (and stared at the sky forebodingly. well, the sarcasm was lost and they took me seriously – that i was telling them what i believed would happen. since then i’ve realized that religious discussions regarding dharmic faiths with those unfamiliar with dharmic faiths should be conducted seriously and without sarcasm.
Scientology hits Punjab. Check the second part of my post for the pic.
Scientology hits Punjab. Check the second part of my post for the pic.
kprincess: So you agree that all the religions of this world lead to the one God? How about radical Muslims that blow themselves up for Allah? How about Hindus that pray to thousands of gods, including one in the form of a human penis (Shiva lingum)? How about Christians that worship Jesus when he himself told his disciples to worship his father? I don't think all these religions make God happy – do you?
kprincess: So you agree that all the religions of this world lead to the one God? How about radical Muslims that blow themselves up for Allah? How about Hindus that pray to thousands of gods, including one in the form of a human penis (Shiva lingum)? How about Christians that worship Jesus when he himself told his disciples to worship his father? I don’t think all these religions make God happy – do you?
Davinder, it is not the place of Sikhi to judge if other religions are "make God happy" — how could any of us possibly understand God or God's Will? Are you arguing that you understand what this is, and that you believe all other religions (aside from Sikhi) and their followers make God unhappy?
Davinder, it is not the place of Sikhi to judge if other religions are “make God happy” — how could any of us possibly understand God or God’s Will? Are you arguing that you understand what this is, and that you believe all other religions (aside from Sikhi) and their followers make God unhappy?
Wow, I feel pity for some of the people here.
Davinder seems to be under the influence of nazi "Sikhs." Any Sikh will tell you that God exists in the Shiva Lingum. Why? Because Sikhs believe that God exists everywhere. That is the most basic and fundamental concept of our religion.
Why should we have to answer the missionaries? Just ask them an equally irrelevant question like, How was your Hell created? Are there sky scrapers owned by Satan "down" there?
Why should we talk about the creation of the Earth and their need for salvation? Just tell them, look if you want to understand anything about faith, you must realize that God is one and all is God. If you need me to answer questions to justify my religion, you are the one who lacks faith. Why don't you ask God why I was created, why my religion exists? You claim to have faith correct?
If you want to understand my religion, then allow me time to explain the universal concepts that I follow and practice which are common to your faith. If you want to present irrelevant mythology and ask me to endorse it, then forget it.
And if you really want to burn them up – lol
Just ask them why "holy" Lot from the Old Testament offered his daughters in prostitution to the gang of [deleted by Admin: The use of profanity is strictly prohibited on The Langar Hall] so that they wouldn't rape the stranger/guest who he just let into his home.
Ask them how we can have a civil society when both the Bible and Koran are considered the words of God, and both say who you can keep as slaves and who you can go to war with.
Wow, I feel pity for some of the people here.
Davinder seems to be under the influence of nazi “Sikhs.” Any Sikh will tell you that God exists in the Shiva Lingum. Why? Because Sikhs believe that God exists everywhere. That is the most basic and fundamental concept of our religion.
Why should we have to answer the missionaries? Just ask them an equally irrelevant question like, How was your Hell created? Are there sky scrapers owned by Satan “down” there?
Why should we talk about the creation of the Earth and their need for salvation? Just tell them, look if you want to understand anything about faith, you must realize that God is one and all is God. If you need me to answer questions to justify my religion, you are the one who lacks faith. Why don’t you ask God why I was created, why my religion exists? You claim to have faith correct?
If you want to understand my religion, then allow me time to explain the universal concepts that I follow and practice which are common to your faith. If you want to present irrelevant mythology and ask me to endorse it, then forget it.
And if you really want to burn them up – lol
Just ask them why “holy” Lot from the Old Testament offered his daughters in prostitution to the gang of [deleted by Admin: The use of profanity is strictly prohibited on The Langar Hall] so that they wouldn’t rape the stranger/guest who he just let into his home.
Ask them how we can have a civil society when both the Bible and Koran are considered the words of God, and both say who you can keep as slaves and who you can go to war with.
I just dont know were to start. I have to say i dont know much about sikhs, but i do however belive that you should know all there IS to know about what you "belive". If it is your religion you should have 100 percent confedence in it.If someone asks "why dont you cut your hair?" and you say i dont know, can you call yourself (enter your religon)? Religion is faith. Now to talk about Prabhu's comment on Lot, if you read the whole account, the "stranger" was an angel of God sent there to get Lot and his family out before the city was distroyed. When Lot offered his daughters to the mob, he was just trying to save the angel. Was it the RIGHT thing to do? You and I will never know, we werent there. We dont know what the situation was. But Lot had faith that everything would be ok, and it was. The angel made the mob go blind and everyone was safe from rape.
I just dont know were to start. I have to say i dont know much about sikhs, but i do however belive that you should know all there IS to know about what you “belive”. If it is your religion you should have 100 percent confedence in it.If someone asks “why dont you cut your hair?” and you say i dont know, can you call yourself (enter your religon)? Religion is faith. Now to talk about Prabhu’s comment on Lot, if you read the whole account, the “stranger” was an angel of God sent there to get Lot and his family out before the city was distroyed. When Lot offered his daughters to the mob, he was just trying to save the angel. Was it the RIGHT thing to do? You and I will never know, we werent there. We dont know what the situation was. But Lot had faith that everything would be ok, and it was. The angel made the mob go blind and everyone was safe from rape.
Thank you Dan for your comments. You're right, even though I don't agree with offering your daughters to a gang of butt rapists, I wasn't there and indeed his faith is what won over.
Thank you Dan for your comments. You’re right, even though I don’t agree with offering your daughters to a gang of butt rapists, I wasn’t there and indeed his faith is what won over.
[quote comment="1799"]kprincess: So you agree that all the religions of this world lead to the one God? How about radical Muslims that blow themselves up for Allah? How about Hindus that pray to thousands of gods, including one in the form of a human penis (Shiva lingum)? How about Christians that worship Jesus when he himself told his disciples to worship his father? I don't think all these religions make God happy – do you?[/quote]
As to the first two. You are picking extreme practices and making it seem like those practices are expressly accepted and generally practiced in those religions. When in fact such practices are NOT the norm and would NOT be considered acceptable in such religions. No where does the Quran direct Muslims to blow up buildings. In facts, majority of the Muslims in the world would condemn such actions.
Most Hindus DON'T worship Shiva lingum. I know plenty of Hindus, and none of them participate in such worship.
Just because people of a certain religion happen to act in a particular manner doesn't mean that's part of their religion. What are you gonna say next, that it's part of Catholasism for the priests to abuse little kids?? So is it part of Sikhism to believe in cast, because most of them do, even though such actions are forbidden in our religion.
As to the worship of Jesus, this might be acceptable in Christianity, but it's not all Abrahamic religions practice this.
I don't know if you are a Sikh or not, but if you are then you should recognize that the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji expressly states that other religions are true. Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji contains many verses from the Quran, Gita and Prophets from other faiths. Guru Nanak Dev Ji and other Gurus did not agree with certain practices of Islam or Hinduism, yet they NEVER stated that such religions are false.
Sikhi is the only religion that I know of which recognizes other religions as true. The Harmandier Sahib has 4 doors in recognition to show that people of different faiths are welcome. Baba Nanak Ji had a Hindu and a Muslim friend, a symbol of brotherhood. A Muslim was the one who laid the foundation of the Harmander Sahib.
If you really are a Sikh, you should accept the clear teachings of Sikhism, which says that other religions are true and there are multiple paths to God.
Should I provide you with quotes from the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to show you that Sikhi says there is MORE than one true path? (These can be easily found on the internet)
"Kabir says this loud and clear, and you should think over it in your own mind. God pervades all persons unseen. He is the same in the Hindu as well as in the Muslim." [1, ang 483]
He is in the temple as in the mosque,
In the Hindu worship as in the Muslim prayer.
(Akal Ustat, page 86)
"Of all the religions, the best religion is to repeat God's Name and to do pious deeds. Of all the religious rites, the best rite is to remove the filth of evil intellect by association with the saints." (Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadi, pg. 266)
"Don’t say the Vedas and the Books (Torah, Bible, Qura’an) are false. False is the one who does not study them." [1, ang 1350]
So there you have it!!!!
[quote comment=”1799″]kprincess: So you agree that all the religions of this world lead to the one God? How about radical Muslims that blow themselves up for Allah? How about Hindus that pray to thousands of gods, including one in the form of a human penis (Shiva lingum)? How about Christians that worship Jesus when he himself told his disciples to worship his father? I don’t think all these religions make God happy – do you?[/quote]
As to the first two. You are picking extreme practices and making it seem like those practices are expressly accepted and generally practiced in those religions. When in fact such practices are NOT the norm and would NOT be considered acceptable in such religions. No where does the Quran direct Muslims to blow up buildings. In facts, majority of the Muslims in the world would condemn such actions.
Most Hindus DON’T worship Shiva lingum. I know plenty of Hindus, and none of them participate in such worship.
Just because people of a certain religion happen to act in a particular manner doesn’t mean that’s part of their religion. What are you gonna say next, that it’s part of Catholasism for the priests to abuse little kids?? So is it part of Sikhism to believe in cast, because most of them do, even though such actions are forbidden in our religion.
As to the worship of Jesus, this might be acceptable in Christianity, but it’s not all Abrahamic religions practice this.
I don’t know if you are a Sikh or not, but if you are then you should recognize that the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji expressly states that other religions are true. Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji contains many verses from the Quran, Gita and Prophets from other faiths. Guru Nanak Dev Ji and other Gurus did not agree with certain practices of Islam or Hinduism, yet they NEVER stated that such religions are false.
Sikhi is the only religion that I know of which recognizes other religions as true. The Harmandier Sahib has 4 doors in recognition to show that people of different faiths are welcome. Baba Nanak Ji had a Hindu and a Muslim friend, a symbol of brotherhood. A Muslim was the one who laid the foundation of the Harmander Sahib.
If you really are a Sikh, you should accept the clear teachings of Sikhism, which says that other religions are true and there are multiple paths to God.
Should I provide you with quotes from the Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji to show you that Sikhi says there is MORE than one true path? (These can be easily found on the internet)
“Kabir says this loud and clear, and you should think over it in your own mind. God pervades all persons unseen. He is the same in the Hindu as well as in the Muslim.” [1, ang 483]
He is in the temple as in the mosque,
In the Hindu worship as in the Muslim prayer.
(Akal Ustat, page 86)
“Of all the religions, the best religion is to repeat God’s Name and to do pious deeds. Of all the religious rites, the best rite is to remove the filth of evil intellect by association with the saints.” (Guru Arjan Dev, Ashtpadi, pg. 266)
“Don’t say the Vedas and the Books (Torah, Bible, Qura’an) are false. False is the one who does not study them.” [1, ang 1350]
So there you have it!!!!
kprincess: I appreciate all your efforts to try to convince me that all religions are good and acceptable to God, but I personally cannot believe that is true. Nonetheless, if we can just stick to one topic, and that is whether all religions teach truth or not. We are taught in mathematics that there are absolute truths which cannot be changed and can then be used to progress theories. I see it the same with truths about God and faith. Either hell exists, or it does not. Either we are reincarnated, or we are not. Either it is a sin to cut our hair, or it is not.
I'm sorry if this seems like I am being stubborn, but I cannot just blindly accept that all religions are inherently good. They are not. And although you have stated that not all Muslims blow people up, not all Hindus worship Shiva lingum, or not all Christians worship Jesus – it seems you yourself have a problem with those forms of worship. So, what would you say to one of those people? Would you be tough enough to tell them they are worshipping God incorrectly? And that their worship is not accepted by God? You just cannot have it both ways.
davinder…because this is too easy…
that's not kprincess's position. she's telling you, straight up, what the Guru Granth says in regards to other faiths – that while Sikhi is the truest and straightest path, all faiths are worthwhile and if practiced, ultimately lead to salvation. so, if you "cannot believe it is true," then OH NOES, you reject the teaching of the Guru Granth!!
reconcile that with your unbelievably simplistic understanding of Sikhi and religion in general.
kprincess: I appreciate all your efforts to try to convince me that all religions are good and acceptable to God, but I personally cannot believe that is true. Nonetheless, if we can just stick to one topic, and that is whether all religions teach truth or not. We are taught in mathematics that there are absolute truths which cannot be changed and can then be used to progress theories. I see it the same with truths about God and faith. Either hell exists, or it does not. Either we are reincarnated, or we are not. Either it is a sin to cut our hair, or it is not.
I’m sorry if this seems like I am being stubborn, but I cannot just blindly accept that all religions are inherently good. They are not. And although you have stated that not all Muslims blow people up, not all Hindus worship Shiva lingum, or not all Christians worship Jesus – it seems you yourself have a problem with those forms of worship. So, what would you say to one of those people? Would you be tough enough to tell them they are worshipping God incorrectly? And that their worship is not accepted by God? You just cannot have it both ways.
davinder…because this is too easy…
that’s not kprincess’s position. she’s telling you, straight up, what the Guru Granth says in regards to other faiths – that while Sikhi is the truest and straightest path, all faiths are worthwhile and if practiced, ultimately lead to salvation. so, if you “cannot believe it is true,” then OH NOES, you reject the teaching of the Guru Granth!!
reconcile that with your unbelievably simplistic understanding of Sikhi and religion in general.
sizzle: Do you think that Guru Gobind Singh knew about the things I mentioned about other religions earlier at the time the Guru Granth was released? Probably not. Do you think he would have approved of these practices? I don't think so.
sizzle: Do you think that Guru Gobind Singh knew about the things I mentioned about other religions earlier at the time the Guru Granth was released? Probably not. Do you think he would have approved of these practices? I don’t think so.
[quote comment="1897"]sizzle: Do you think that Guru Gobind Singh knew about the things I mentioned about other religions earlier at the time the Guru Granth was released? Probably not. Do you think he would have approved of these practices? I don't think so.[/quote]
Baba Nanak knew that Hindus worshiped idols, burned women in the fire, danced while praying, put water to the sun, – practices he rejected out right, yet he NEVER said Hinduism is a untruthful religion.
Guru Gobind Singh Ji fought against the Moguls, and empire that had forced a number of nations to convert to Islam, yet he NEVER said Islam is an untruthful religion. The Gurus knew and saw much more than we will see in a 100 lifetimes. Did Guru Gobind Singh Ji not lose his 4 sons along with his entire family because of a man who was trying to force Islam upon them? Yet he never condemned Islam. Such practices that you speak of were well and alive back then.
So, one may not agree with certain practices of a religion, but that doesn't mean the whole religion is false. Also, as I have pointed out that just because people engage in certain activities, that doesn't mean those activities are part of the religion.
Divinder, I don't approach religion in a mathematical formula, it's just not that simple for me. I can't make you get rid of the beliefs you have, but I have pointed out that Sikhi does not support your views. You need to change yourself rather than try to change the clear teachings of Sikhi.
If one prays to God, Allah, Lord, Waheguru, then she practices a true religion.
[quote comment=”1897″]sizzle: Do you think that Guru Gobind Singh knew about the things I mentioned about other religions earlier at the time the Guru Granth was released? Probably not. Do you think he would have approved of these practices? I don’t think so.[/quote]
Baba Nanak knew that Hindus worshiped idols, burned women in the fire, danced while praying, put water to the sun, – practices he rejected out right, yet he NEVER said Hinduism is a untruthful religion.
Guru Gobind Singh Ji fought against the Moguls, and empire that had forced a number of nations to convert to Islam, yet he NEVER said Islam is an untruthful religion. The Gurus knew and saw much more than we will see in a 100 lifetimes. Did Guru Gobind Singh Ji not lose his 4 sons along with his entire family because of a man who was trying to force Islam upon them? Yet he never condemned Islam. Such practices that you speak of were well and alive back then.
So, one may not agree with certain practices of a religion, but that doesn’t mean the whole religion is false. Also, as I have pointed out that just because people engage in certain activities, that doesn’t mean those activities are part of the religion.
Divinder, I don’t approach religion in a mathematical formula, it’s just not that simple for me. I can’t make you get rid of the beliefs you have, but I have pointed out that Sikhi does not support your views. You need to change yourself rather than try to change the clear teachings of Sikhi.
If one prays to God, Allah, Lord, Waheguru, then she practices a true religion.
kprincess: Again, I appreciate your well-thought out comments, and please do not take offence to my comments.
So then, the question really comes down to how religious teachings are determined. If not by the actions of its people or its leaders, then we can only judge other religions by their holy books. Would you agree with that?
Then, we are under obligation to see if their holy books really come from God, or are just man-made philosophical books. Or, are we under obligation to merely accept the fact that they are all from God without even questioning it? Can you sense my problem with that? Then, what prevents me from writing a book and saying it is from God?
davinder.
that is the ultimate question. and given your arguments and rationale, it would be impossible for you to fully embrace any religion, including Sikhi. this segues well into your reluctance to embrace the Guru Granth's teaching that all faiths are to be respected, as you have questioned it's teaching/authority repeatedly.
do you view religion as an end all be all? does religion dictate how not to piss off some omnipresent being? does religion exist so that mankind operates in accordance to some fire and brimstone God? does religion exist to keep society in check by creating divine consequence?
or does religion exist as guidance on how to make us content, to rid oneself of the things (cardinal sins) that ultimately lead to a cycle of misery; is religion a set of values that ultimately make us good and happy?
don't answer that…i don't want to read your explanation. just think about it. i posited those questions only because i sense you are operating under the premise of the formers, while a few of us have an understanding that religion, and Sikhi, exists for the latter.
I don't know if the books are man made or they come from God. I don't see it as my obligation to judge other books, because the bani tells me they are true.
“Don’t say the Vedas and the Books (Torah, Bible, Qura’an) are false. False is the one who does not study them.” [1, ang 1350]
The bani also tells me what is not true, so I attempt to avoid such beliefs or practices.
–So in all, when I listen to bani, I am connected to God. Sometimes when I hear people talk, I feel connected to God, even if those people are from another religion. But I know my home is Sikhi, though I recognize that there are also other dwellings in the vast world.
And no, I'm not offended by your comments.
sizzle: I will not answer your questions since you don't want MY explanation. But I am now interested in what YOUR explanations are to the questions you have posed? What IS the purpose of religion?
Furthermore, please explain what you mean when you say I am "operating under the premise of the formers"? I have never and will never try to "form" a religion of my own. If you mean by that, to be Sikhi means not to question matters of faith, then I guess I am not Sikhi.
Lastly, I don't feel questioning truth should equate to an inability to embrace any religion. I don't think God would expect that – do you??
Brah,
because it's exam time and i'm bored out of my mind, i'll respond.
first, "former and latter" is an expression. see here:
http://www.sparknotes.com/writing/style/topic_90….
second, i already answered your question. i said that i think you embraced the first paragraph of interpretations (, while i (and probably others) embrace the second.
finally, your posts are so internally contradictory, i can only conclude you are incredibly confused. now you state that you possess the right to question your faith, and indeed, God expects you to question the truth of any faith. and yet, all of your posts rely on the undeniable truthiness of Sikhi, truthiness which is so significant, that it trumps all other faiths and renders them "untrue."
you seem to be grasping at any straws in order to prove yourself right and not making sense. also, you can't seem to follow what i'm saying, so what's the point?
peace.
kprincess: OK, so here again is the crux of the matter. "Don't say the Vedas and the books are false." But Gurbani tells me "what is not true" so we can "avoid such beliefs or practices". This is the contradiction I am speaking of! Why do we mince words – false is false, true is true, black is black, white is white.
Anybody can make a book. But only God can make a book holy. One God will not give all his children different truths, because as I have stated before, we all die the same way, have the same outcome, and should be expected to worship the same way as his children.
I respect your beliefs and your obvious devotion to just do what we are told. I will not fault you for that. Nonetheless, personally I find this issue too disturbing to simply dismiss. How can I be willing to stake my faith on a claim with this many holes in it?
kprincess: Again, I appreciate your well-thought out comments, and please do not take offence to my comments.
So then, the question really comes down to how religious teachings are determined. If not by the actions of its people or its leaders, then we can only judge other religions by their holy books. Would you agree with that?
Then, we are under obligation to see if their holy books really come from God, or are just man-made philosophical books. Or, are we under obligation to merely accept the fact that they are all from God without even questioning it? Can you sense my problem with that? Then, what prevents me from writing a book and saying it is from God?
sizzle: Thank you for the clarification on "former" and "latter". So now Sikhi renders all other religions "untrue"? This after kprincess just quoted the passage:
“Don’t say the Vedas and the Books (Torah, Bible, Qura’an) are false. False is the one who does not study them.” [1, ang 1350]
And, you're correct, what good is discussion if nobody feels they are right. Let's just discuss what we know is wrong. ??
Peace to you too brother.
davinder.
that is the ultimate question. and given your arguments and rationale, it would be impossible for you to fully embrace any religion, including Sikhi. this segues well into your reluctance to embrace the Guru Granth’s teaching that all faiths are to be respected, as you have questioned it’s teaching/authority repeatedly.
do you view religion as an end all be all? does religion dictate how not to piss off some omnipresent being? does religion exist so that mankind operates in accordance to some fire and brimstone God? does religion exist to keep society in check by creating divine consequence?
or does religion exist as guidance on how to make us content, to rid oneself of the things (cardinal sins) that ultimately lead to a cycle of misery; is religion a set of values that ultimately make us good and happy?
don’t answer that…i don’t want to read your explanation. just think about it. i posited those questions only because i sense you are operating under the premise of the formers, while a few of us have an understanding that religion, and Sikhi, exists for the latter.
I don’t know if the books are man made or they come from God. I don’t see it as my obligation to judge other books, because the bani tells me they are true.
“Don’t say the Vedas and the Books (Torah, Bible, Qura’an) are false. False is the one who does not study them.” [1, ang 1350]
The bani also tells me what is not true, so I attempt to avoid such beliefs or practices.
–So in all, when I listen to bani, I am connected to God. Sometimes when I hear people talk, I feel connected to God, even if those people are from another religion. But I know my home is Sikhi, though I recognize that there are also other dwellings in the vast world.
And no, I’m not offended by your comments.
sizzle: I will not answer your questions since you don’t want MY explanation. But I am now interested in what YOUR explanations are to the questions you have posed? What IS the purpose of religion?
Furthermore, please explain what you mean when you say I am “operating under the premise of the formers”? I have never and will never try to “form” a religion of my own. If you mean by that, to be Sikhi means not to question matters of faith, then I guess I am not Sikhi.
Lastly, I don’t feel questioning truth should equate to an inability to embrace any religion. I don’t think God would expect that – do you??
Brah,
because it’s exam time and i’m bored out of my mind, i’ll respond.
first, “former and latter” is an expression. see here:
http://www.sparknotes.com/writing/style/topic_90.html
second, i already answered your question. i said that i think you embraced the first paragraph of interpretations (, while i (and probably others) embrace the second.
finally, your posts are so internally contradictory, i can only conclude you are incredibly confused. now you state that you possess the right to question your faith, and indeed, God expects you to question the truth of any faith. and yet, all of your posts rely on the undeniable truthiness of Sikhi, truthiness which is so significant, that it trumps all other faiths and renders them “untrue.”
you seem to be grasping at any straws in order to prove yourself right and not making sense. also, you can’t seem to follow what i’m saying, so what’s the point?
peace.
kprincess: OK, so here again is the crux of the matter. “Don’t say the Vedas and the books are false.” But Gurbani tells me “what is not true” so we can “avoid such beliefs or practices”. This is the contradiction I am speaking of! Why do we mince words – false is false, true is true, black is black, white is white.
Anybody can make a book. But only God can make a book holy. One God will not give all his children different truths, because as I have stated before, we all die the same way, have the same outcome, and should be expected to worship the same way as his children.
I respect your beliefs and your obvious devotion to just do what we are told. I will not fault you for that. Nonetheless, personally I find this issue too disturbing to simply dismiss. How can I be willing to stake my faith on a claim with this many holes in it?
sizzle: Thank you for the clarification on “former” and “latter”. So now Sikhi renders all other religions “untrue”? This after kprincess just quoted the passage:
“Don’t say the Vedas and the Books (Torah, Bible, Qura’an) are false. False is the one who does not study them.” [1, ang 1350]
And, you’re correct, what good is discussion if nobody feels they are right. Let’s just discuss what we know is wrong. ??
Peace to you too brother.
Ok, I guess I'm confused by your discussion to begin with – like sizzle pointed out, at first it appeared you were saying Sikhi is the only path, but now it appears you're questioning that too.
-First of all – I'm not saying we should "just do what we are told". It may appear from my posts that I blindly follow Sikhi, but I've come to that conclusion by reading, searching and through self understanding. So I don't advocate any one to just do what they're told, rather I think a person should think about what is told and follow it only if it makes sense. Sikhi makes sense to me, so I follow it. If it didn't I'd go find another religion.
What also makes sense to me is that even if a religion has certain practices that I don't agree with, those gaps don't make a religion invalid. I mean, my parents have certain flaws, but I don't abandon them for such flaws. Rather I attempt to understand them and see where they're coming from.
Also, I see NO contradiction in saying that the books are all true but disagreeing w/ certain practices that those books preach. They're true because they lead you to God, even though certain practices they prescribe might not be necessary or there might alternatives.
Also, we DON'T all die the same way, there's a million ways to die. We're all human, but we come in different colors, different shapes, different sex. So if we can have different eye color, different food, different languages while still being human, then whey can't we have a different way to worshiping the same God.
So this is the end of my discussion here, I have to get to other things.
But on a more relevant note, from this discussion I've realized that if a Missionary comes knocking on my door, I'll invite them in and learn about their religion, as it'll teach me about mine. Also, what's more better than talking about God, regardless of what language or form it's in. They can't change my religion, but they will get me thinking about God, so all the better.
Ok, bye.
they'll likely interrupt me while i'm watching a great episode Jeopardy like they always do, so i'll throw a ladoo at them and tell them to get the hell off my doorstep.
Ok, I guess I’m confused by your discussion to begin with – like sizzle pointed out, at first it appeared you were saying Sikhi is the only path, but now it appears you’re questioning that too.
-First of all – I’m not saying we should “just do what we are told”. It may appear from my posts that I blindly follow Sikhi, but I’ve come to that conclusion by reading, searching and through self understanding. So I don’t advocate any one to just do what they’re told, rather I think a person should think about what is told and follow it only if it makes sense. Sikhi makes sense to me, so I follow it. If it didn’t I’d go find another religion.
What also makes sense to me is that even if a religion has certain practices that I don’t agree with, those gaps don’t make a religion invalid. I mean, my parents have certain flaws, but I don’t abandon them for such flaws. Rather I attempt to understand them and see where they’re coming from.
Also, I see NO contradiction in saying that the books are all true but disagreeing w/ certain practices that those books preach. They’re true because they lead you to God, even though certain practices they prescribe might not be necessary or there might alternatives.
Also, we DON’T all die the same way, there’s a million ways to die. We’re all human, but we come in different colors, different shapes, different sex. So if we can have different eye color, different food, different languages while still being human, then whey can’t we have a different way to worshiping the same God.
So this is the end of my discussion here, I have to get to other things.
But on a more relevant note, from this discussion I’ve realized that if a Missionary comes knocking on my door, I’ll invite them in and learn about their religion, as it’ll teach me about mine. Also, what’s more better than talking about God, regardless of what language or form it’s in. They can’t change my religion, but they will get me thinking about God, so all the better.
Ok, bye.
they’ll likely interrupt me while i’m watching a great episode Jeopardy like they always do, so i’ll throw a ladoo at them and tell them to get the hell off my doorstep.