Enjoy The Show But Leave Your Kirpan At Home
Vaisakhi in the diaspora usually brings two things to those living in cities with large Sikh communities: Nagar Kirtans and Vaisakhi concerts. Unfortunately, if you were an Amritdhari Sikh in London this year and you wanted to partake in both, you would have been out of luck. Tickets for the recent Gurdas Maan concert held at Wembley Arena had a unique warning printed on them, “NO KIRPANS OR SHARP OBJECTS”.
I won’t dwell too much on the irony of banning kirpans at a Vaisakhi concert, which usually start with the requisite dharmak songs, like Gurdas Maan’s tribute to Guru Gobind Singh and his contributions to Sikhi.
What I wonder is exactly what the organizers must have been thinking in doing this. I suspect the banning of kirpans probably falls under generic security rules banning knives and other weapons. In fact the terms and conditions on their website state that the “possession of any article, which is or may be used as a weapon or missile” is strictly prohibited. Pretty standard fare at all large venues.
However, what kind of discussions took place between the venue and the organizers that resulted in the warning being printed on the ticket? Did the venue demand the label or did the organizers do it proactively to avoid problems with security? Did the organizers try to get an exemption for the kirpan or did they just capitulate to the venue’s demands? Where there other alternative venues that could have been used to host the event instead of Wembley Arena? And worst of all, did the organizers (likely Sikh and / or Punjabi) just not care if they knowingly discriminated against potential attendees?
You can read more about the tickets (in Gurmukhi) at Punjabi Daily. If you were at the concert or knew about what happened to precipitate the warning, please share with us on TLH.
98 Responses to “Enjoy The Show But Leave Your Kirpan At Home”
a Kaur ji,
Please dont do nindya of Gurdas maan. He is undoubtfully great singh. Lets not overfluenced his negative side with his positive one. He is legendry artist and is one of few good artist in punjab who spread punjabi and yes sikhi too. ( i know he has bad sides but noone is perfect right? )
I personally think its not his fault in this case.
People (Khalsa) who think that kirpan ban doesn`t make any sense becuase amritdhari shouldn`t be going in this concert anywyas, should think twice.
The problem is not that Khalsa should or should not go in concert like that, but in the fact that 'Kirpan' was banned make a restriction over Amritdhari people. Today its a punjabi concert , tommorow it can be another place , and its all happenening in UK (The largest sikh population in world after india) ? and most ironly is that everyone overlooked this issue and trying to ignore it, Even Amritdhari people.
Remember , if you keep quite, none going to say anything, you will be again opeeressed like you were in india. Then blamming that there is no place left on this planet to go. Even , keeping quite is not bad thing, but opposing your 'own rights' is.
This remindes me of 'UK school kara' case. It was so ironical that some Amritdhari sikh opposed the kara in school , just becuase the girl was haircut. One should look at the fact that that girl was not fighting for herself (as she could have no problem removing kara) but for Khalsa and to educating people about the essence of 5k so that other khalsa people shouldn`t have trouble in future. But sad thing is that our own people bites us because of hate and nindya
"nindya of Gurdas maan. He is undoubtfully great singh"
go to a Gurdwara near you and ask them what a Singh is. If you keep your hair and tie a turban your a sardar; if you keep your hair and become Amritdhari and follow Rehat ONLY then are you a Singh. Spreading Sikhi? Tell me of one individual who started reading Gurbani and took Amrit by Gurdass Manns influence? I will gaurantee it even if you asked Gurdass Mann, he will also agree that he isn't trying to spread Sikhi. Ye some songs about how Punjab is so beutifal and all are ok but like the rest is just about lust/alcohol/caste(jatt)/ego.
Being that, I totally agree with you on the part that Gurdass Mann is a Punjabi Cultural Icon and spreads the cultural aspect. Also, that the whole Kirpan ban should be considered a bigger issue. But the thing is, if a Amritdhari Sikh considers himself soo free of Rehat and Guru Sahibs told teachings to go to concerts of such a manner, I am sure he/she won't care to much about taking their kirpan off for a couple of hours. O and if you think you are such a big preacher of Sikhi and know soo much, visit this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgstQkRYy8E&fe… . I am pretty sure you don't more than Sant Kartar Singh Ji (Damdami Taksaal), about Sikhi and Khalsa.
a Kaur ji,
Please dont do nindya of Gurdas maan. He is undoubtfully great singh. Lets not overfluenced his negative side with his positive one. He is legendry artist and is one of few good artist in punjab who spread punjabi and yes sikhi too. ( i know he has bad sides but noone is perfect right? )
I personally think its not his fault in this case.
People (Khalsa) who think that kirpan ban doesn`t make any sense becuase amritdhari shouldn`t be going in this concert anywyas, should think twice.
The problem is not that Khalsa should or should not go in concert like that, but in the fact that ‘Kirpan’ was banned make a restriction over Amritdhari people. Today its a punjabi concert , tommorow it can be another place , and its all happenening in UK (The largest sikh population in world after india) ? and most ironly is that everyone overlooked this issue and trying to ignore it, Even Amritdhari people.
Remember , if you keep quite, none going to say anything, you will be again opeeressed like you were in india. Then blamming that there is no place left on this planet to go. Even , keeping quite is not bad thing, but opposing your ‘own rights’ is.
This remindes me of ‘UK school kara’ case. It was so ironical that some Amritdhari sikh opposed the kara in school , just becuase the girl was haircut. One should look at the fact that that girl was not fighting for herself (as she could have no problem removing kara) but for Khalsa and to educating people about the essence of 5k so that other khalsa people shouldn`t have trouble in future. But sad thing is that our own people bites us because of hate and nindya
Hey toornto fatty:
lol, i think you have no trouble seeing that kirpan are being banned from concerts. And yeah you shouldn`t be becuase These types of concerts have no link with sikhism whatsoever.
Ok , So go ahead and dont worry about it at all. who cares right. If Amritdhari people do not have any trouble with these words ' kirpan are not allowded' , doesn`t matter whereever it is wrriten you are ok.
You judge people with their outerlook (Haircut/ Mona etc.) and dump them before they even open their mouth. Tell them they are not sikh and why do you still allow them doing seva in langer ?
Didn`t bhai Randhir singh ji the same ? Rejecting food made from the hand of non-amritdhari person. lol ( Behaving like Bharamans who did same to non-touchable)
Now you take bharamnwad inside khalsa which guru sahib warned you about.
No doubt why sikh seems to be so confused these days.
P.S.
'Je Sikh Sikh nu na Mare ta Kaum Kde na Hare'
You can reject your own people, discriminate them, tell them you are more clean and holy than them, but that will make you FALL.
“nindya of Gurdas maan. He is undoubtfully great singh”
go to a Gurdwara near you and ask them what a Singh is. If you keep your hair and tie a turban your a sardar; if you keep your hair and become Amritdhari and follow Rehat ONLY then are you a Singh. Spreading Sikhi? Tell me of one individual who started reading Gurbani and took Amrit by Gurdass Manns influence? I will gaurantee it even if you asked Gurdass Mann, he will also agree that he isn’t trying to spread Sikhi. Ye some songs about how Punjab is so beutifal and all are ok but like the rest is just about lust/alcohol/caste(jatt)/ego.
Being that, I totally agree with you on the part that Gurdass Mann is a Punjabi Cultural Icon and spreads the cultural aspect. Also, that the whole Kirpan ban should be considered a bigger issue. But the thing is, if a Amritdhari Sikh considers himself soo free of Rehat and Guru Sahibs told teachings to go to concerts of such a manner, I am sure he/she won’t care to much about taking their kirpan off for a couple of hours. O and if you think you are such a big preacher of Sikhi and know soo much, visit this link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgstQkRYy8E&feature=related . I am pretty sure you don’t more than Sant Kartar Singh Ji (Damdami Taksaal), about Sikhi and Khalsa.
Hey toornto fatty:
lol, i think you have no trouble seeing that kirpan are being banned from concerts. And yeah you shouldn`t be becuase These types of concerts have no link with sikhism whatsoever.
Ok , So go ahead and dont worry about it at all. who cares right. If Amritdhari people do not have any trouble with these words ‘ kirpan are not allowded’ , doesn`t matter whereever it is wrriten you are ok.
You judge people with their outerlook (Haircut/ Mona etc.) and dump them before they even open their mouth. Tell them they are not sikh and why do you still allow them doing seva in langer ?
Didn`t bhai Randhir singh ji the same ? Rejecting food made from the hand of non-amritdhari person. lol ( Behaving like Bharamans who did same to non-touchable)
Now you take bharamnwad inside khalsa which guru sahib warned you about.
No doubt why sikh seems to be so confused these days.
P.S.
‘Je Sikh Sikh nu na Mare ta Kaum Kde na Hare’
You can reject your own people, discriminate them, tell them you are more clean and holy than them, but that will make you FALL.
@ Joo Kay Singh
I have to leave this to everyone's perception then. Gurdas with Gill in the photo is horrible. Will not argue that. But you cannot believe that he supports his policies. That's an assumption you got from the photo. anyways.
He has done a lot of Panjab and Panjabis. That is not empty chat but a fact. what have you done brother? What have i done?
Maan supports humanity with all religions. If you listen to his songs he does do that. And why is he not a legend. His songs have become "common sayings in Panjab". He is the only Panjabi singer to have such a huge following, going on for almost 30 yrs now. He made the fist CinemaScope Panjabi movie (Shaheed E Mohabhat) with his own money which resurrected the Panjabi movie industry. Inspired millions.. and is still going. is that is no legendary right now.. in 20 years he will definitely be considered a legend.
@ Toronto Fatty
"Tell me of one individual who started reading Gurbani and took Amrit by Gurdass Manns influence?"
Well you found 1. Me!
Jiyo Babeo…
Wow, you just took it to a new ignorant level. I didn't even say anything about monay/haircut, yea you were saying Gurdas Mann is spreading sikhi and well that is wrong. And as I said in the previous comment, the whole Kirpan ban thing should be considered as a larger issue and the ban should be removed. I have nothing against monay, my best friends are monay, one is turbaned. You otta be ashamed of yourself for talking about Bhai Randhir Singh Ji like that, spreading Brahminsism, you individuals who cut their hair and sing "we are Jatts omg were so great"- thats Brahaminism. O and its nothing about Mona or non Amritdhari making the food, its about not eating from a person that makes meat, drinks alcohol, and purchases these things with dishonesty. Sant Kartar Singh Ji never went to nonAmritdharis houses either. O and about me telling you guys "you aren't Sikh," how about you read the Rehatnama and see for yourself who is saying you aren't Sikhs. Brahimns rejected the untouchables because of their birth into a caste or whatever, Khalsa doesn't allow mona/haircut individuals to perform certain things because they don't know/see the value of them. Dasam Father said- uncut hair is the roots of Sikhee, those who cut it, pull the roots out. And I never said I am or we are better than Kadardharis in any way.
P.S
You seem to care a lot about Amritdhari individuals, too bad you can't become one yourself, so it seems.
So what your telling me is that you started reading Gurbani, started going to the Gurdwara more often, took Amrit, and started letting go of lust/ego/anger/attachment with Gurdass Manns "parchar"? If you honestly did please do tell me I will stop commenting on this article and well yea….
This has been a fantasic discussion. I'm proud of my brothers and sisters for such substantive responses to the original posters [an indian sikh, and amarpreet gill]. Despite "an indian sikh" using "logic and practicality" to support position – her comments in this thread are classic Hindu Government propoganda. RK Anand, Tytler, Gandhis, and Sajjan Kumar [et al] would be proud, Anju dear! With so called "Sikhs" like you, within our own community, who the hell needs the Arya Samaj, GOI, RSS, Mir Mannu, or Aurangzeb as enemies???
Since "an indian sikh" feels she is an expert on Sikh issues/affairs by virtue of her birthplace, I would urge her to read Cynthia Mehmood Kepley's in-depth research on so-called Sikh "terrorism" in the 80s and 90s – for an alternate and more realistic viewpoint. TLH featured a recent article by Ms. Kepley that shockingly described the "ground reality" in Punjab at that time – the same "ground reality" that an "indian sikh" claims to be so familiar with.
Maple Leaf Sikh, you write very well. Your piece captured the true irony of the situation without engaging in personal attacks. The true focus of the issue is: 1) how far are certain members of the Punjabi diaspora, who classify themselves as Sikhs, willing to go to destroy their own spiritual heritage and identity? and 2) the legal implications of religious discrimination in the guise of "public safety". Keep up the good work!
Toronto Fatty ji,
You are contradicting your own post and your post is way too rediclous. and i do not wish to continue the Scrap-war becuase i believe its wastage of time and energy which i can better use in naam simran. You are entitled to your own opninon and me too.
But one thing i want to say
You wrote :
the whole Kirpan ban thing should be considered as a larger issue and the ban should be removed.
i do not think you are helping it but rather opposing it though blame-game and mindless arguments.
yea thats exactly what I am doing! you bring up some next issues about me hating on sikhs who can't follow all the rules in Sikhi, whom I have nothing against. Yea by saying it should be considered a larger issue I meant I agree with your earlier posts that the Kirpans should be allowed in public areas (a Larger issue), but I just differed in the fact that Amritdharees should be going to such SPECIFIC events. Its not my fault if I have to spoon feed you on every little word in my post.
And I am raising mindless arguments ey? ::
"You judge people with their outerlook (Haircut/ Mona etc.) and dump them before they even open their mouth. Tell them they are not sikh and why do you still allow them doing seva in langer ?
Didn`t bhai Randhir singh ji the same ? Rejecting food made from the hand of non-amritdhari person. lol ( Behaving like Bharamans who did same to non-touchable)
Now you take bharamnwad inside khalsa which guru sahib warned you about."
very nice……..
dd
[Toronto Fatty: Please don't add additional info to your name, you can do that in the beginning of the coment –Admin]
God, Please forget 'Toronto Fatty' for his innocence as he does not know what he is doing ( nindya ) .
Bha ji, please go home and do naam simran, you have already lost much energy(mind) now please preseve your simran.
May baba ji help you!
waheguru
@ Toronto Fatty
Yes. I started listening to Gurbani, taken Amrtit. But not only listening actually started to learn and understand what I say and listen too. Letting go of the 5 things (lust, ego, etc) always working on it and his songs put me in that path.
I can email you or send you songs which have inspired me throughout my life if you like.
Most of Gurdas Maan's songs are very moraly sound and go with Sikhi.
Jiyo
@ Joo Kay Singh
I have to leave this to everyone’s perception then. Gurdas with Gill in the photo is horrible. Will not argue that. But you cannot believe that he supports his policies. That’s an assumption you got from the photo. anyways.
He has done a lot of Panjab and Panjabis. That is not empty chat but a fact. what have you done brother? What have i done?
Maan supports humanity with all religions. If you listen to his songs he does do that. And why is he not a legend. His songs have become “common sayings in Panjab”. He is the only Panjabi singer to have such a huge following, going on for almost 30 yrs now. He made the fist CinemaScope Panjabi movie (Shaheed E Mohabhat) with his own money which resurrected the Panjabi movie industry. Inspired millions.. and is still going. is that is no legendary right now.. in 20 years he will definitely be considered a legend.
@ Toronto Fatty
“Tell me of one individual who started reading Gurbani and took Amrit by Gurdass Manns influence?”
Well you found 1. Me!
Jiyo Babeo…
Wow, you just took it to a new ignorant level. I didn’t even say anything about monay/haircut, yea you were saying Gurdas Mann is spreading sikhi and well that is wrong. And as I said in the previous comment, the whole Kirpan ban thing should be considered as a larger issue and the ban should be removed. I have nothing against monay, my best friends are monay, one is turbaned. You otta be ashamed of yourself for talking about Bhai Randhir Singh Ji like that, spreading Brahminsism, you individuals who cut their hair and sing “we are Jatts omg were so great”- thats Brahaminism. O and its nothing about Mona or non Amritdhari making the food, its about not eating from a person that makes meat, drinks alcohol, and purchases these things with dishonesty. Sant Kartar Singh Ji never went to nonAmritdharis houses either. O and about me telling you guys “you aren’t Sikh,” how about you read the Rehatnama and see for yourself who is saying you aren’t Sikhs. Brahimns rejected the untouchables because of their birth into a caste or whatever, Khalsa doesn’t allow mona/haircut individuals to perform certain things because they don’t know/see the value of them. Dasam Father said- uncut hair is the roots of Sikhee, those who cut it, pull the roots out. And I never said I am or we are better than Kadardharis in any way.
P.S
You seem to care a lot about Amritdhari individuals, too bad you can’t become one yourself, so it seems.
So what your telling me is that you started reading Gurbani, started going to the Gurdwara more often, took Amrit, and started letting go of lust/ego/anger/attachment with Gurdass Manns “parchar”? If you honestly did please do tell me I will stop commenting on this article and well yea….
This has been a fantasic discussion. I’m proud of my brothers and sisters for such substantive responses to the original posters [an indian sikh, and amarpreet gill]. Despite “an indian sikh” using “logic and practicality” to support position – her comments in this thread are classic Hindu Government propoganda. RK Anand, Tytler, Gandhis, and Sajjan Kumar [et al] would be proud, Anju dear! With so called “Sikhs” like you, within our own community, who the hell needs the Arya Samaj, GOI, RSS, Mir Mannu, or Aurangzeb as enemies???
Since “an indian sikh” feels she is an expert on Sikh issues/affairs by virtue of her birthplace, I would urge her to read Cynthia Mehmood Kepley’s in-depth research on so-called Sikh “terrorism” in the 80s and 90s – for an alternate and more realistic viewpoint. TLH featured a recent article by Ms. Kepley that shockingly described the “ground reality” in Punjab at that time – the same “ground reality” that an “indian sikh” claims to be so familiar with.
Maple Leaf Sikh, you write very well. Your piece captured the true irony of the situation without engaging in personal attacks. The true focus of the issue is: 1) how far are certain members of the Punjabi diaspora, who classify themselves as Sikhs, willing to go to destroy their own spiritual heritage and identity? and 2) the legal implications of religious discrimination in the guise of “public safety”. Keep up the good work!
Toronto Fatty ji,
You are contradicting your own post and your post is way too rediclous. and i do not wish to continue the Scrap-war becuase i believe its wastage of time and energy which i can better use in naam simran. You are entitled to your own opninon and me too.
But one thing i want to say
You wrote :
the whole Kirpan ban thing should be considered as a larger issue and the ban should be removed.
i do not think you are helping it but rather opposing it though blame-game and mindless arguments.
yea thats exactly what I am doing! you bring up some next issues about me hating on sikhs who can’t follow all the rules in Sikhi, whom I have nothing against. Yea by saying it should be considered a larger issue I meant I agree with your earlier posts that the Kirpans should be allowed in public areas (a Larger issue), but I just differed in the fact that Amritdharees should be going to such SPECIFIC events. Its not my fault if I have to spoon feed you on every little word in my post.
And I am raising mindless arguments ey? ::
“You judge people with their outerlook (Haircut/ Mona etc.) and dump them before they even open their mouth. Tell them they are not sikh and why do you still allow them doing seva in langer ?
Didn`t bhai Randhir singh ji the same ? Rejecting food made from the hand of non-amritdhari person. lol ( Behaving like Bharamans who did same to non-touchable)
Now you take bharamnwad inside khalsa which guru sahib warned you about.”
very nice……..
dd
[Toronto Fatty: Please don’t add additional info to your name, you can do that in the beginning of the coment –Admin]
God, Please forget ‘Toronto Fatty’ for his innocence as he does not know what he is doing ( nindya ) .
Bha ji, please go home and do naam simran, you have already lost much energy(mind) now please preseve your simran.
May baba ji help you!
waheguru
@ Toronto Fatty
Yes. I started listening to Gurbani, taken Amrtit. But not only listening actually started to learn and understand what I say and listen too. Letting go of the 5 things (lust, ego, etc) always working on it and his songs put me in that path.
I can email you or send you songs which have inspired me throughout my life if you like.
Most of Gurdas Maan’s songs are very moraly sound and go with Sikhi.
Jiyo
Gurdas Mann travels with huge security, he knows that a substantial amount of amritdhari's don't like him for many of his songs, and he doesn't want to turn into another chamkila. He may be a good song, and an exemplary punjabi, but he does little for the Sikh faith. I'm sure he requested this to be done.
Gurdas Mann travels with huge security, he knows that a substantial amount of amritdhari’s don’t like him for many of his songs, and he doesn’t want to turn into another chamkila. He may be a good song, and an exemplary punjabi, but he does little for the Sikh faith. I’m sure he requested this to be done.
lol @ Gurdas Mann needs security because he fears attacks from Amritdhari's…Kanvider Dhaliwal, Gurdas Mann is a no-body…LOL
too funny…hahahaha
but i will say that Gurdas Mann is no friend of the Sikhs fore he's KPS Gill mate!!
lol @ Gurdas Mann needs security because he fears attacks from Amritdhari’s…Kanvider Dhaliwal, Gurdas Mann is a no-body…LOL
too funny…hahahaha
but i will say that Gurdas Mann is no friend of the Sikhs fore he’s KPS Gill mate!!
I've tried to avoid this discussion simply because of the direction it is going, but I do feel compelled to offer a few thoughts. As for the original issue raised by Maple Leaf Sikh, to prohibit a specific article of faith from an event – any event – is simply wrong. In the US, organizations like The Sikh Coalition or SALDEF would have been all over this. In my opinion, the fact that the event is for a Panjabi singer is unfortunate, but irrelevant.
As for Gurdas Mann, I don’t really care for him or his music – but I don't understand why we're putting him on trial. Since when do we rely on Panjabi singers to be our moral compass? Sure, it's nice when artists use their talents for something positive, but why should they be expected to? They are entertainers, their livelihood is based on bringing in crowds – most will cater to what the crowds want…if it's sex and drugs…that's what they'll sing about.
When it comes to alcoholism and other ills of society, why should we expect anything of Panjabi singers? Isn’t this why politicians are elected? Shouldn't the Akali Dal, SGPC, or NGOs be held responsible? And when it comes to issues of caste-ism, we have no further to look than ourselves. Truth is, the whole system has failed…you and I included. So what do we do??? We pick on Gurdas Mann…that's much easier, right?
No – we individually become agents of change.
This thread is very similar to how our Gurdwara politics work. Somewhere in the bickering over personalities, we lose sight of the issues. I believe we as Sikhs have tremendous potential, only if we stop getting so easily distracted.
I challenge those of you who read and comment on this forum to stick to topics and avoid the hostility, or better yet, resist responding to hostility…only then can we accomplish something here.
“We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” Albert Einstein
I’ve tried to avoid this discussion simply because of the direction it is going, but I do feel compelled to offer a few thoughts. As for the original issue raised by Maple Leaf Sikh, to prohibit a specific article of faith from an event – any event – is simply wrong. In the US, organizations like The Sikh Coalition or SALDEF would have been all over this. In my opinion, the fact that the event is for a Panjabi singer is unfortunate, but irrelevant.
As for Gurdas Mann, I don’t really care for him or his music – but I don’t understand why we’re putting him on trial. Since when do we rely on Panjabi singers to be our moral compass? Sure, it’s nice when artists use their talents for something positive, but why should they be expected to? They are entertainers, their livelihood is based on bringing in crowds – most will cater to what the crowds want…if it’s sex and drugs…that’s what they’ll sing about.
When it comes to alcoholism and other ills of society, why should we expect anything of Panjabi singers? Isn’t this why politicians are elected? Shouldn’t the Akali Dal, SGPC, or NGOs be held responsible? And when it comes to issues of caste-ism, we have no further to look than ourselves. Truth is, the whole system has failed…you and I included. So what do we do??? We pick on Gurdas Mann…that’s much easier, right?
No – we individually become agents of change.
This thread is very similar to how our Gurdwara politics work. Somewhere in the bickering over personalities, we lose sight of the issues. I believe we as Sikhs have tremendous potential, only if we stop getting so easily distracted.
I challenge those of you who read and comment on this forum to stick to topics and avoid the hostility, or better yet, resist responding to hostility…only then can we accomplish something here.
“We can’t solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them.” Albert Einstein
@RP Singh
Great Post Brother.
@RP Singh
Great Post Brother.
Seems to be a trend.
http://www.canada.com/entertainment/Cancelled+Cal…
Seems to be a trend.
http://www.canada.com/entertainment/Cancelled+Calgary+concert+raises+kirpan+questions/1855575/story.html
[…] at the point where cultural icon and repository Gurdas Mann, goes so far as to write “No Kirpans or Sharp Objects Allowed” on tickets being sold at a VAISAKHI show in England, then what do we do? We let him carry forward […]
an indian sikh is a fraud female. she wouldnt write all this crap if she had some respect for ppl killed in delhi by organised crime
True Amritdhari sikhs would not attend such an event. It is therefore irrelevant.
I love this article. It is so right on point. It is great approach to human systems integration.