UPDATED: Whither a Voice: Sikhs and Palestine
While emotions often run high on this issue, an email from a friend struck me enough to think about and create a forum for the issue.
As current estimates has over 850 Palestinian and 13 Israeli deaths, the tragedy in Gaza will be continued with Israeli strikes. Throughout the world, we have seen breath-taking numbers of individuals take to the streets (Professor Juan Cole of Informed Comment provides a cogent argument that street protests are overall useless and believes better lobbying for the future of the struggle) denouncing and calling for an end to the current strikes.
During the summer, on the eve of the Olympic Games, a fellow Langa(w)riter asked about the question of the shaheed (the witness) in the case of injustice and abuse.
While there will be varied Sikh perspectives on the issue of the current violence (often according to age, but not always) certain Sikh groups have taken an active stand.
The Canadian-based Sikh Activist Network worked to make sure a Sikh attendance would be seen at various protests. Certain facebook groups urging Sikhs to recognize the Palestine state have popped up. Another website shows a group of Sikhs that visited the Palestinian territories and Israeli state on a peace mission.
I wonder about other Sikhs’ participation on this particular issue (low, I would assume) and thoughts on institutional Sikh voices/individual Sikh voices responses and engagement with non-Sikh issues. How do we define those issues that call for a shaheed?
————————————————————-
No sooner had I asked these questions and posted this blog, when I received an email from a friend.
If interested, please sign on to this online note of solidarity called “Sikh Solidarity with Palestine” that is circulating through Facebook. I reproduce it verbatim below.
Sikh Solidarity with Palestine
January 12, 2009
Kal kaati raaje kaasaa-ee dharma pankh kar udriaa.
Koorh amaavas sach chandramaa deesai naahee kah charhiaa.This age is a knife, kings are butchers; justice hath taken wings and fled.
In this completely dark night of falsehood the truth is never seen to rise.– Guru Nanak Sahib, Sri Guru Granth Sahib, p. 145
After two weeks of relentless attacks and an ongoing siege, the results are sobering: over 880 people dead, 30% of whom are children, and more than 4000 injured; hospitals, schools, universities, local markets, streets, homes and communities crushed to rubble; a blockade on humanitarian relief including food and life-saving medical supplies; a ban on foreign journalists and media entering the area; and a sealed border rendering 1.5 million people imprisoned within the boundaries of a siege. Hundreds of thousands of lives are being destroyed as they are marked dispensable for one reason only: they are Palestinian. The death toll is rising, and Israel has hinted to no end in sight as it continues to expand its offensive by air, land, and sea. The above words of Guru Nanak Sahib, the first Guru and founder of the Sikh faith, ring painfully true today, 500 years after he wrote them.
According to Sikhi, all human lives are equal and should be cherished. Right now in Gaza, the lives of an entire people are being deemed worthless. We mourn the recent loss of over 880 Palestinian lives taken by the Israeli military. We also mourn the loss of the 9 Israeli lives taken by Hamas rockets.
We are Sikhs who stand against the brutality of Israeli occupation and the ongoing siege, blockade, and massacre of Gaza. Now more than ever, we call on our Sikh sisters and brothers to think about what our faith and our Sikh identity really means. Why did Guru Nanak Sahib seek to abolish the caste system in South Asia? Why did Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib sacrifice his life for the sake of others’ (non-Sikhs) right to freely practice their religion and live free of persecution? Why did Guru Gobind Singh, our tenth Guru, give birth to the Khalsa – an armed body of full-time revolutionaries – in 1699?
Because for Sikhs, fighting against all forms of tyranny and oppression is a spiritual obligation.
We are inspired by this Sikh tradition of fighting not only for our own rights and our own sovereignty as Sikhs, but for the freedom and rights of all people – sarbat da bhala. Historically, Sikhs have known all too well what state repression and violent hatred look like. Sikhs too, like Palestinians, have faced campaigns of ethnic cleansing by emperors and prime ministers, dictators and elected leaders. Without a doubt, we have struggled and we must continue to struggle for our right to exist and our right to be Sikhs. But we must bring to the forefront our responsibility to fight for the liberation and freedom of all people. When we end ardas with, “Nanak naam chardi kala, tere bane sarbat da bhala,” we must pay attention to the power and weight of these words, take them to heart, and put the concept of sarbat da bhala into practice.
What that means for us now, as Sikhs and as people of conscience, is to stand in solidarity with the people of Gaza, the Palestinians around the world fighting for their right to return home, and the thousands of Jewish and Israeli activists calling for an immediate end to the siege and an end to Israeli apartheid. Together, we must all demand peace and justice.
We encourage all Sikhs to learn more about what is going on in Gaza and about the history of Israeli occupation of Palestine. We encourage you to organize discussions about this issue amongst your sangat in and outside of the gurdwara, in your Sikh Student Associations, and in your families. Below are a few articles and resources that provide perspectives usually left out of the mainstream media:
http://electronicintifada.net
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/08/opinion/08khalidi.html
http://gazasiege.org
http://ajjp.org
http://stopthewall.orgMost importantly, we encourage you to take action. Get together with others in your community, Sikhs and non-Sikhs alike, and attend a local demonstration against the siege of Gaza. Make a donation to send medical supplies and other humanitarian relief to Gaza (http://www.freegaza.org; http://www.mecaforpeace.org). For those in the United States, call on the Obama administration to make his promise of “change” a reality by stopping the spending of U.S. tax dollars on bombs that kill Palestinians. For those in Canada, call on Harper to condemn Israel’s crimes against humanity and demand an immediate stop to the siege. Pressure both governments to urgently support the global movement for boycott, divestment, and sanctions against Israel—a strategy that helped to end apartheid in South Africa 15 years ago (http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/09-0).
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh!
To sign on to this statement, send an email with your name and city to: sikhsolidarity@gmail.com.
203 Responses to “UPDATED: Whither a Voice: Sikhs and Palestine”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qMGuYjt6CP8
You don’t need to understand Arabic to understand either the koran, sunna, hadiths, sira, or whatever else describes islamic/ muslim teachings/ history/ etc…, there are translations available, in fact you can reference the MSA-USC who was forced to remove certain hadiths/ koranic passages from their website due to the HATE filled rhetoric in them (which is a part of Islamic teaching and ideology)… Don’t believe me, look it up for yourself… (FYI, I did post some links in a previous comment on a diff. topic)
You don't need to understand Arabic to understand either the koran, sunna, hadiths, sira, or whatever else describes islamic/ muslim teachings/ history/ etc…, there are translations available, in fact you can reference the MSA-USC who was forced to remove certain hadiths/ koranic passages from their website due to the HATE filled rhetoric in them (which is a part of Islamic teaching and ideology)… Don't believe me, look it up for yourself… (FYI, I did post some links in a previous comment on a diff. topic)
You don’t need to understand Arabic to understand either the koran, sunna, hadiths, sira, or whatever else describes islamic/ muslim teachings/ history/ etc…, there are translations available, in fact you can reference the MSA-USC who was forced to remove certain hadiths/ koranic passages from their website due to the HATE filled rhetoric in them (which is a part of Islamic teaching and ideology)… Don’t believe me, look it up for yourself… (FYI, I did post some links in a previous comment on a diff. topic)
Yes, Kaptaan and according to Doris Jakobsh's wonderful usage of translations, Guru Nanak was a misogynist and the Guru Granth Sahib is replete with the misogyny of the Sikh Gurus. Viva translations!
Yes, Kaptaan and according to Doris Jakobsh’s wonderful usage of translations, Guru Nanak was a misogynist and the Guru Granth Sahib is replete with the misogyny of the Sikh Gurus. Viva translations!
Yes, Kaptaan and according to Doris Jakobsh’s wonderful usage of translations, Guru Nanak was a misogynist and the Guru Granth Sahib is replete with the misogyny of the Sikh Gurus. Viva translations!
Hardeep, so you are equating something that Muslims put forward themselves in english to represent what they're texts say in arabic, with something that a non-Sikh says about the Sikh Gurus and Sikh history?
So following your logic, the muslims who put forward their own translation of their OWN religious texts don't know anything about their OWN religion??
Do you see that your logic makes no sense? If you can't trust muslims to know anything about their own religion, then who can someone trust, YOU?? Because you seem to want to discredit the muslims student assoc. themselves as being too stupid to know what they are putting up about their own religion.
Hardeep, so you are equating something that Muslims put forward themselves in english to represent what they’re texts say in arabic, with something that a non-Sikh says about the Sikh Gurus and Sikh history?
So following your logic, the muslims who put forward their own translation of their OWN religious texts don’t know anything about their OWN religion??
Do you see that your logic makes no sense? If you can’t trust muslims to know anything about their own religion, then who can someone trust, YOU?? Because you seem to want to discredit the muslims student assoc. themselves as being too stupid to know what they are putting up about their own religion.
Hardeep, so you are equating something that Muslims put forward themselves in english to represent what they’re texts say in arabic, with something that a non-Sikh says about the Sikh Gurus and Sikh history?
So following your logic, the muslims who put forward their own translation of their OWN religious texts don’t know anything about their OWN religion??
Do you see that your logic makes no sense? If you can’t trust muslims to know anything about their own religion, then who can someone trust, YOU?? Because you seem to want to discredit the muslims student assoc. themselves as being too stupid to know what they are putting up about their own religion.
Dear hardeep
you got to clarify which inhabitant
past
present or
future owns the land ?
Dear hardeep
you got to clarify which inhabitant
past
present or
future owns the land ?
Dear hardeep
you got to clarify which inhabitant
past
present or
future owns the land ?
Sizzle, Harinder, Kapitaan
You guys make good point but unfortunately they are lost on the likes of Hardeep and Amneezy. These type of people have brought into the propaganda of the Palestinians and the liberal left wing media. Personally I wouldn't be worried about them attending pro-Hamas rallies but [deleted] like them give the false impression that Sikhs are making common cause with Islamic terrorists like Hamas and that is dangerous. SAN is a left wing organisation run by kids who think it's trendy and 'right on' to protest against the Zionists little knowing that the Islamists they are joining in their protests believe in the same Islamic supremacy that killed millions of Sikhs from the days of Bhai Taru Singh to the Sikh victims of the partition. So much for their knowledge of Sikh history!
[Please refrain from calling other bloggers names.]
Sizzle, Harinder, Kapitaan
You guys make good point but unfortunately they are lost on the likes of Hardeep and Amneezy. These type of people have brought into the propaganda of the Palestinians and the liberal left wing media. Personally I wouldn’t be worried about them attending pro-Hamas rallies but [deleted] like them give the false impression that Sikhs are making common cause with Islamic terrorists like Hamas and that is dangerous. SAN is a left wing organisation run by kids who think it’s trendy and ‘right on’ to protest against the Zionists little knowing that the Islamists they are joining in their protests believe in the same Islamic supremacy that killed millions of Sikhs from the days of Bhai Taru Singh to the Sikh victims of the partition. So much for their knowledge of Sikh history!
[Please refrain from calling other bloggers names.]
Bikramjit, you should work for FOX News.
In fact I challenge you to illustrate how anti-war rallies = pro Hamas, sounds quite contradictory doesn’t it?
You also speak of Islamic Supremacy, perhaps you should study how and why Hamas was created, you might be surprised to find out that they were initially funded by the Zionists in their effort to weaken the “moderate” Fatah/PLO party, who believe in negotiations. It’s funny how some individuals who clearly have a racist like Hatred towards any and all Muslims fail to recognize that the Zionists are in fact the ultimate Supremacists. I question if you even understand what their Ideology encompasses, it is extremely superior-centric thought which looks to banish anyone on “their” lands.
Also, if you want to speak about Sikh History, than why not consider the work of Bhai Khaniya Ji? Protesting for human life is the least we can do, unless of course you condemn Guru Ji’s words in favour of the compassion carried out by Bhai Khaniya Ji.
How can you condemn women and children to death in Palestine based on the actions of Men in India hundreds of years ago, especially when the Likes of Bhai Khaniya Ji could overlook it with his love then!
I think the only ones blind here are those who have poisoned by their hatred into legitimatizing violence against innocent, unarmed civilians.
Bikramjit, you should work for FOX News.
In fact I challenge you to illustrate how anti-war rallies = pro Hamas, sounds quite contradictory doesn't it?
You also speak of Islamic Supremacy, perhaps you should study how and why Hamas was created, you might be surprised to find out that they were initially funded by the Zionists in their effort to weaken the "moderate" Fatah/PLO party, who believe in negotiations. It's funny how some individuals who clearly have a racist like Hatred towards any and all Muslims fail to recognize that the Zionists are in fact the ultimate Supremacists. I question if you even understand what their Ideology encompasses, it is extremely superior-centric thought which looks to banish anyone on "their" lands.
Also, if you want to speak about Sikh History, than why not consider the work of Bhai Khaniya Ji? Protesting for human life is the least we can do, unless of course you condemn Guru Ji's words in favour of the compassion carried out by Bhai Khaniya Ji.
How can you condemn women and children to death in Palestine based on the actions of Men in India hundreds of years ago, especially when the Likes of Bhai Khaniya Ji could overlook it with his love then!
I think the only ones blind here are those who have poisoned by their hatred into legitimatizing violence against innocent, unarmed civilians.
Bikramjit, you should work for FOX News.
In fact I challenge you to illustrate how anti-war rallies = pro Hamas, sounds quite contradictory doesn’t it?
You also speak of Islamic Supremacy, perhaps you should study how and why Hamas was created, you might be surprised to find out that they were initially funded by the Zionists in their effort to weaken the “moderate” Fatah/PLO party, who believe in negotiations. It’s funny how some individuals who clearly have a racist like Hatred towards any and all Muslims fail to recognize that the Zionists are in fact the ultimate Supremacists. I question if you even understand what their Ideology encompasses, it is extremely superior-centric thought which looks to banish anyone on “their” lands.
Also, if you want to speak about Sikh History, than why not consider the work of Bhai Khaniya Ji? Protesting for human life is the least we can do, unless of course you condemn Guru Ji’s words in favour of the compassion carried out by Bhai Khaniya Ji.
How can you condemn women and children to death in Palestine based on the actions of Men in India hundreds of years ago, especially when the Likes of Bhai Khaniya Ji could overlook it with his love then!
I think the only ones blind here are those who have poisoned by their hatred into legitimatizing violence against innocent, unarmed civilians.
Bikramjit,
Since there are two "Harinders" here, myself the Kaur and Harinder Singh, I would like to make it clear that, while I have tried not to be inflammatory, I am a member of SAN, indeed, one of the first members, a trendy, left-wing kid of 56 years.
Now that both sides have declared a truce in Gaza, can we not here also declare a truce and wait and see how things work out?
As I have said before, I care only for the suffering people on both sides; let us serve them and leave judgements for later, if ever.
Bikramjit,
Since there are two “Harinders” here, myself the Kaur and Harinder Singh, I would like to make it clear that, while I have tried not to be inflammatory, I am a member of SAN, indeed, one of the first members, a trendy, left-wing kid of 56 years.
Now that both sides have declared a truce in Gaza, can we not here also declare a truce and wait and see how things work out?
As I have said before, I care only for the suffering people on both sides; let us serve them and leave judgements for later, if ever.
Bikramjit,
Since there are two “Harinders” here, myself the Kaur and Harinder Singh, I would like to make it clear that, while I have tried not to be inflammatory, I am a member of SAN, indeed, one of the first members, a trendy, left-wing kid of 56 years.
Now that both sides have declared a truce in Gaza, can we not here also declare a truce and wait and see how things work out?
As I have said before, I care only for the suffering people on both sides; let us serve them and leave judgements for later, if ever.
Kaptaan
Jakobsh used translations of the Guru Granth Sahib written by Sikhs.
Regarding Muslims, there is no monolithic “Islamic opinion” on anything. You are absolutely right that some Muslims write absolutely disgusting things, especially in a politically-charged environment.
Kaptaan
Jakobsh used translations of the Guru Granth Sahib written by Sikhs.
Regarding Muslims, there is no monolithic "Islamic opinion" on anything. You are absolutely right that some Muslims write absolutely disgusting things, especially in a politically-charged environment.
Kaptaan
Jakobsh used translations of the Guru Granth Sahib written by Sikhs.
Regarding Muslims, there is no monolithic “Islamic opinion” on anything. You are absolutely right that some Muslims write absolutely disgusting things, especially in a politically-charged environment.
Hardeep, unfortunately those who harbour hate don't understand that…
SOME does not equal ALL
Hardeep, unfortunately those who harbour hate don’t understand that…
SOME does not equal ALL
Hardeep, unfortunately those who harbour hate don’t understand that…
SOME does not equal ALL
Hardeep, did those Sikh-written translations actually say what Jakobsh wrote? Is Jakobsh a Sikh?
I pointed out that muslims themselves describe their own religion as saying these things… you continue to try and equate one with the other… it doesn't make sense… this argumentative style of trying to make some sort of moral equivalence between what muslims themselves say about their religion and what it means and how it should be interpreted, and how non-Sikhs view Sikh writings is like comparing apples and motor oil. It doesn't work. They are entirely different.
As for politically charged environment, there is no political charge when people are interpreting writings from the 7th, 10th, 12th century years if not decades before the current conflict… Why are you being an apologist for what muslims themselves say about their own religion?
Can't you simply make your stance known that if Islam states and muslims believe that jew killing, kaffir hating/ discrimination, jizya, dhimmitude, etc… is righteous whether you wholely condemn those muslims who practice Islam in that manner or not?
Why is it so hard for you to accept that there are more than a few muslims who believe in muslim-supremacy on a scale larger than anything white supremacists ever imagined?
As for amneezy, you're argument referencing Fox News just shows how 'open' your mind truly is…
Hardeep, did those Sikh-written translations actually say what Jakobsh wrote? Is Jakobsh a Sikh?
I pointed out that muslims themselves describe their own religion as saying these things… you continue to try and equate one with the other… it doesn’t make sense… this argumentative style of trying to make some sort of moral equivalence between what muslims themselves say about their religion and what it means and how it should be interpreted, and how non-Sikhs view Sikh writings is like comparing apples and motor oil. It doesn’t work. They are entirely different.
As for politically charged environment, there is no political charge when people are interpreting writings from the 7th, 10th, 12th century years if not decades before the current conflict… Why are you being an apologist for what muslims themselves say about their own religion?
Can’t you simply make your stance known that if Islam states and muslims believe that jew killing, kaffir hating/ discrimination, jizya, dhimmitude, etc… is righteous whether you wholely condemn those muslims who practice Islam in that manner or not?
Why is it so hard for you to accept that there are more than a few muslims who believe in muslim-supremacy on a scale larger than anything white supremacists ever imagined?
As for amneezy, you’re argument referencing Fox News just shows how ‘open’ your mind truly is…
Hardeep, did those Sikh-written translations actually say what Jakobsh wrote? Is Jakobsh a Sikh?
I pointed out that muslims themselves describe their own religion as saying these things… you continue to try and equate one with the other… it doesn’t make sense… this argumentative style of trying to make some sort of moral equivalence between what muslims themselves say about their religion and what it means and how it should be interpreted, and how non-Sikhs view Sikh writings is like comparing apples and motor oil. It doesn’t work. They are entirely different.
As for politically charged environment, there is no political charge when people are interpreting writings from the 7th, 10th, 12th century years if not decades before the current conflict… Why are you being an apologist for what muslims themselves say about their own religion?
Can’t you simply make your stance known that if Islam states and muslims believe that jew killing, kaffir hating/ discrimination, jizya, dhimmitude, etc… is righteous whether you wholely condemn those muslims who practice Islam in that manner or not?
Why is it so hard for you to accept that there are more than a few muslims who believe in muslim-supremacy on a scale larger than anything white supremacists ever imagined?
As for amneezy, you’re argument referencing Fox News just shows how ‘open’ your mind truly is…
Kaptaan, she directly quoted, Sikh-written translations. I do not believe she is a Sikh.
I know plenty of Sikhs that say the most dumb things in interpreting Sikhi as well. Muslims have no monopoly on stupidity.
Of course writings of the 7th, 10th, and 12th century will mean different things to different people. I am sure there are writings of the 8th, 11th, and 13th century that probably also promoted peace at different times as well. What’s your point? You believe in some sort of ‘essential’ Islam.
I would love to see your evidence for this.
Kaptaan, she directly quoted, Sikh-written translations. I do not believe she is a Sikh.
I know plenty of Sikhs that say the most dumb things in interpreting Sikhi as well. Muslims have no monopoly on stupidity.
Of course writings of the 7th, 10th, and 12th century will mean different things to different people. I am sure there are writings of the 8th, 11th, and 13th century that probably also promoted peace at different times as well. What's your point? You believe in some sort of 'essential' Islam.
I would love to see your evidence for this.
Kaptaan, she directly quoted, Sikh-written translations. I do not believe she is a Sikh.
I know plenty of Sikhs that say the most dumb things in interpreting Sikhi as well. Muslims have no monopoly on stupidity.
Of course writings of the 7th, 10th, and 12th century will mean different things to different people. I am sure there are writings of the 8th, 11th, and 13th century that probably also promoted peace at different times as well. What’s your point? You believe in some sort of ‘essential’ Islam.
I would love to see your evidence for this.
Dear Hardeep
I am reading this discussion.I just want to say keep translation aside and tell me about actions.Is it not true that majority of muslim countries are not seculer? What about religious freedom in saudi arabia and other middle east coutries.I am really sorry to say but it is a truth that muslim whereever they went ,the population of other religions declined and ultimately vanished.Afghanistan,pakistan,bangladesh etc are some examples.
Actions speak more than words or translations.what kaptaan said
is essential part of islam which they many times try to impose on non muslims when they are in majority
Anyway its good that you people are supporting that innocent civilians should not be killed,But I would also like to hear from you what you people have done or are doing for Rwanda,tibetans,bangladeshi hindu's and other killings which took
or are taking place in the world.and also I would like to know
what you people are doing so that religious freedom could be restored in Saudi and other middle eastern countries.
Dear Hardeep
I am reading this discussion.I just want to say keep translation aside and tell me about actions.Is it not true that majority of muslim countries are not seculer? What about religious freedom in saudi arabia and other middle east coutries.I am really sorry to say but it is a truth that muslim whereever they went ,the population of other religions declined and ultimately vanished.Afghanistan,pakistan,bangladesh etc are some examples.
Actions speak more than words or translations.what kaptaan said
is essential part of islam which they many times try to impose on non muslims when they are in majority
Anyway its good that you people are supporting that innocent civilians should not be killed,But I would also like to hear from you what you people have done or are doing for Rwanda,tibetans,bangladeshi hindu’s and other killings which took
or are taking place in the world.and also I would like to know
what you people are doing so that religious freedom could be restored in Saudi and other middle eastern countries.
Dear Hardeep
I am reading this discussion.I just want to say keep translation aside and tell me about actions.Is it not true that majority of muslim countries are not seculer? What about religious freedom in saudi arabia and other middle east coutries.I am really sorry to say but it is a truth that muslim whereever they went ,the population of other religions declined and ultimately vanished.Afghanistan,pakistan,bangladesh etc are some examples.
Actions speak more than words or translations.what kaptaan said
is essential part of islam which they many times try to impose on non muslims when they are in majority
Anyway its good that you people are supporting that innocent civilians should not be killed,But I would also like to hear from you what you people have done or are doing for Rwanda,tibetans,bangladeshi hindu’s and other killings which took
or are taking place in the world.and also I would like to know
what you people are doing so that religious freedom could be restored in Saudi and other middle eastern countries.
i eagerly await updates from you, a truly objective source relying on other objective sources, to update me of each development in this conflict and the actions of the “zionist murderers.”
i eagerly await updates from you, a truly objective source relying on other objective sources, to update me of each development in this conflict and the actions of the "zionist murderers."
i eagerly await updates from you, a truly objective source relying on other objective sources, to update me of each development in this conflict and the actions of the “zionist murderers.”
How mature, sizzle.
If you really want, how about…
– taking a look at Btselem an Isreali Human Rights Groups figures…
– Reading up on the latest comments of the UN
– Reading up on the ICRC's findings and statements
– Actually learning what Zionism is and what its intended goals are.
– Taking a look at International Law regarding how the Zionists have conducted themselves in this slaughter.
Let me guess, you probably won't, and if you do, you'll filter out any information regarding what they Zionists have done or attempt to justify it. Either that, or you'll blindly only look at the errors of Hamas and Palestinians.
How mature, sizzle.
If you really want, how about…
– taking a look at Btselem an Isreali Human Rights Groups figures…
– Reading up on the latest comments of the UN
– Reading up on the ICRC’s findings and statements
– Actually learning what Zionism is and what its intended goals are.
– Taking a look at International Law regarding how the Zionists have conducted themselves in this slaughter.
Let me guess, you probably won’t, and if you do, you’ll filter out any information regarding what they Zionists have done or attempt to justify it. Either that, or you’ll blindly only look at the errors of Hamas and Palestinians.
How mature, sizzle.
If you really want, how about…
– taking a look at Btselem an Isreali Human Rights Groups figures…
– Reading up on the latest comments of the UN
– Reading up on the ICRC’s findings and statements
– Actually learning what Zionism is and what its intended goals are.
– Taking a look at International Law regarding how the Zionists have conducted themselves in this slaughter.
Let me guess, you probably won’t, and if you do, you’ll filter out any information regarding what they Zionists have done or attempt to justify it. Either that, or you’ll blindly only look at the errors of Hamas and Palestinians.
mature? very – i’m finally calling out your bullsh*t.
as i stated from the get go, i wish to not engage in this tit for tat debate of which side is ultimately right – it’ll never end and no one is ultimately right. and that is precisely the point. what ridiculous and truly retarded about this current discussion is the un-nuanced, anti-intellectual and dishonest approach you and some others others (including pro-Israeli’s) have taken in this debate. your current stance and arguments place ZERO accountability for this 50+ year conflict on the side of the palestinians, while others unequivocally blame the palestinians. there is a degree of proportionality, and unless you’re a hack, a pundit, propagandist, or blinded by your own emotion and hatred, it is silly to not at least account for the side you support’s various missteps and consequences. this is why, btw, it’s hard to take you or Hardeep seriously in the very least. it’s not that you are necessarily wrong on the points you make – your position and arguments just refelct no objective analysis on what is occurring. not a single time, in any of your posts, have you conceded a single fault or erroneous decision on the part of the palestinians without justifying in some manner (read: did it because of the murderous zionists!). not a single time, in any of your posts, have you accounted for other factors leading to the palestinian plight aside from the “murderous zionists” (read: the actions of arab nations using them as a proxy for their own end goals). while you make a point and go out of your way to parse the different actors and factions involved from the palestinian side and how some are to blame while others are not for possible indiscretions, not a single time, in any of your posts, have you done the same for the israelis, labeling them as some sort of faceless block of “murderous zionists” who have been on a rampage since the conflict began, again, 50+ years ago, apparently with no dissent or attempted peace processes (remember Rabin and why he was killed? remember WHY the best deal the Palestinians had ever gotten or would ever get fell apart).
before you try to accuse me of the same action (as you preemptively tried to do in your last post), go back and read my comments. despite the fact that i may be sympathetic to the side you oppose, there’s a degree of nuance and conciliation in my arguments, all of which were tangential to my original points about the Sikh role. so, give it a rest and engage again when your emotions cool down and you can analyze this conflict through non-partisan glasses. then it might be worth discussing.
until then, give it a rest.
mature? very – i'm finally calling out your bullsh*t.
as i stated from the get go, i wish to not engage in this tit for tat debate of which side is ultimately right – it'll never end and no one is ultimately right. and that is precisely the point. what ridiculous and truly retarded about this current discussion is the un-nuanced, anti-intellectual and dishonest approach you and some others others (including pro-Israeli's) have taken in this debate. your current stance and arguments place ZERO accountability for this 50+ year conflict on the side of the palestinians, while others unequivocally blame the palestinians. there is a degree of proportionality, and unless you're a hack, a pundit, propagandist, or blinded by your own emotion and hatred, it is silly to not at least account for the side you support's various missteps and consequences. this is why, btw, it's hard to take you or Hardeep seriously in the very least. it's not that you are necessarily wrong on the points you make – your position and arguments just refelct no objective analysis on what is occurring. not a single time, in any of your posts, have you conceded a single fault or erroneous decision on the part of the palestinians without justifying in some manner (read: did it because of the murderous zionists!). not a single time, in any of your posts, have you accounted for other factors leading to the palestinian plight aside from the "murderous zionists" (read: the actions of arab nations using them as a proxy for their own end goals). while you make a point and go out of your way to parse the different actors and factions involved from the palestinian side and how some are to blame while others are not for possible indiscretions, not a single time, in any of your posts, have you done the same for the israelis, labeling them as some sort of faceless block of "murderous zionists" who have been on a rampage since the conflict began, again, 50+ years ago, apparently with no dissent or attempted peace processes (remember Rabin and why he was killed? remember WHY the best deal the Palestinians had ever gotten or would ever get fell apart).
before you try to accuse me of the same action (as you preemptively tried to do in your last post), go back and read my comments. despite the fact that i may be sympathetic to the side you oppose, there's a degree of nuance and conciliation in my arguments, all of which were tangential to my original points about the Sikh role. so, give it a rest and engage again when your emotions cool down and you can analyze this conflict through non-partisan glasses. then it might be worth discussing.
until then, give it a rest.
mature? very – i’m finally calling out your bullsh*t.
as i stated from the get go, i wish to not engage in this tit for tat debate of which side is ultimately right – it’ll never end and no one is ultimately right. and that is precisely the point. what ridiculous and truly retarded about this current discussion is the un-nuanced, anti-intellectual and dishonest approach you and some others others (including pro-Israeli’s) have taken in this debate. your current stance and arguments place ZERO accountability for this 50+ year conflict on the side of the palestinians, while others unequivocally blame the palestinians. there is a degree of proportionality, and unless you’re a hack, a pundit, propagandist, or blinded by your own emotion and hatred, it is silly to not at least account for the side you support’s various missteps and consequences. this is why, btw, it’s hard to take you or Hardeep seriously in the very least. it’s not that you are necessarily wrong on the points you make – your position and arguments just refelct no objective analysis on what is occurring. not a single time, in any of your posts, have you conceded a single fault or erroneous decision on the part of the palestinians without justifying in some manner (read: did it because of the murderous zionists!). not a single time, in any of your posts, have you accounted for other factors leading to the palestinian plight aside from the “murderous zionists” (read: the actions of arab nations using them as a proxy for their own end goals). while you make a point and go out of your way to parse the different actors and factions involved from the palestinian side and how some are to blame while others are not for possible indiscretions, not a single time, in any of your posts, have you done the same for the israelis, labeling them as some sort of faceless block of “murderous zionists” who have been on a rampage since the conflict began, again, 50+ years ago, apparently with no dissent or attempted peace processes (remember Rabin and why he was killed? remember WHY the best deal the Palestinians had ever gotten or would ever get fell apart).
before you try to accuse me of the same action (as you preemptively tried to do in your last post), go back and read my comments. despite the fact that i may be sympathetic to the side you oppose, there’s a degree of nuance and conciliation in my arguments, all of which were tangential to my original points about the Sikh role. so, give it a rest and engage again when your emotions cool down and you can analyze this conflict through non-partisan glasses. then it might be worth discussing.
until then, give it a rest.
Perhaps, you should read my original posts and the subsequent one's which were responses to those who dismissed having solidarity with the victims of the violence.
You have clearly taken a side, even in your very last post you have shifted some of the blame on Palestinians, yet claim you don't want to dispute the history of the violence.
Just to refresh your memory here is an earlier post of yours.
I responded to this and you ignored it. You have also conveniently ignored human rights reports I have suggested you read up on regarding the current crisis, not the history of it! And of course I will refer to them as Zionist Murderers, because they have murdered and Zionism has been the grounds, motivation and justification for them conducting the murder.
ps – Of course I won't shift any of the blame on Palestinians, Hamas and Fatah, well that's another story. Maybe that's where we differ. Again, it's interesting many credible sources have begun to discuss how the Zionists initially funded Hamas. hmmmm.
Perhaps, you should read my original posts and the subsequent one’s which were responses to those who dismissed having solidarity with the victims of the violence.
You have clearly taken a side, even in your very last post you have shifted some of the blame on Palestinians, yet claim you don’t want to dispute the history of the violence.
Just to refresh your memory here is an earlier post of yours.
I responded to this and you ignored it. You have also conveniently ignored human rights reports I have suggested you read up on regarding the current crisis, not the history of it! And of course I will refer to them as Zionist Murderers, because they have murdered and Zionism has been the grounds, motivation and justification for them conducting the murder.
ps – Of course I won’t shift any of the blame on Palestinians, Hamas and Fatah, well that’s another story. Maybe that’s where we differ. Again, it’s interesting many credible sources have begun to discuss how the Zionists initially funded Hamas. hmmmm.
Perhaps, you should read my original posts and the subsequent one’s which were responses to those who dismissed having solidarity with the victims of the violence.
You have clearly taken a side, even in your very last post you have shifted some of the blame on Palestinians, yet claim you don’t want to dispute the history of the violence.
Just to refresh your memory here is an earlier post of yours.
I responded to this and you ignored it. You have also conveniently ignored human rights reports I have suggested you read up on regarding the current crisis, not the history of it! And of course I will refer to them as Zionist Murderers, because they have murdered and Zionism has been the grounds, motivation and justification for them conducting the murder.
ps – Of course I won’t shift any of the blame on Palestinians, Hamas and Fatah, well that’s another story. Maybe that’s where we differ. Again, it’s interesting many credible sources have begun to discuss how the Zionists initially funded Hamas. hmmmm.
annnnnddddd…..with that awesome statement, let's end this discussion once and for all.
annnnnddddd…..with that awesome statement, let’s end this discussion once and for all.
annnnnddddd…..with that awesome statement, let’s end this discussion once and for all.
Fair enough.
I have always felt that the leadership on both sides are corrupt.
My primary concern is those who are the victims of the violence, and the truth is that they primarily belong to Gaza.
What the solution is, well, in my opinion they need true revolutionaries. Again, I suspect this is where we will differ, in that I believe Palestine requires the same revolutionaries the rest of the imperialist dominated world does.
However, where we will probably agree is that Hamas nor any other leaders on either side of the conflict (especially Zionists) fit this profile.
The truth is that if a true revolutionary, I should feel comfortable with the idea that I would be at peace with them leading a global movement/revolution… I can assure you that if either the Zionists or Hamas were to lead a global revolution, both you and I would die by the gun.
Now…this put aside I do believe that Hamas IS the elected government in Gaza and SHOULD be recognized….I also respect the right to resist…
BUT
I can agree that they nor the Zionists are by any means the solution.
Fair enough.
I have always felt that the leadership on both sides are corrupt.
My primary concern is those who are the victims of the violence, and the truth is that they primarily belong to Gaza.
What the solution is, well, in my opinion they need true revolutionaries. Again, I suspect this is where we will differ, in that I believe Palestine requires the same revolutionaries the rest of the imperialist dominated world does.
However, where we will probably agree is that Hamas nor any other leaders on either side of the conflict (especially Zionists) fit this profile.
The truth is that if a true revolutionary, I should feel comfortable with the idea that I would be at peace with them leading a global movement/revolution… I can assure you that if either the Zionists or Hamas were to lead a global revolution, both you and I would die by the gun.
Now…this put aside I do believe that Hamas IS the elected government in Gaza and SHOULD be recognized….I also respect the right to resist…
BUT
I can agree that they nor the Zionists are by any means the solution.
Fair enough.
I have always felt that the leadership on both sides are corrupt.
My primary concern is those who are the victims of the violence, and the truth is that they primarily belong to Gaza.
What the solution is, well, in my opinion they need true revolutionaries. Again, I suspect this is where we will differ, in that I believe Palestine requires the same revolutionaries the rest of the imperialist dominated world does.
However, where we will probably agree is that Hamas nor any other leaders on either side of the conflict (especially Zionists) fit this profile.
The truth is that if a true revolutionary, I should feel comfortable with the idea that I would be at peace with them leading a global movement/revolution… I can assure you that if either the Zionists or Hamas were to lead a global revolution, both you and I would die by the gun.
Now…this put aside I do believe that Hamas IS the elected government in Gaza and SHOULD be recognized….I also respect the right to resist…
BUT
I can agree that they nor the Zionists are by any means the solution.
I guess they don't want to respond to Harinder pointing out the obvious… BTW, why don't we ask Theo Van Gogh about Islamic supremacism?
I guess they don’t want to respond to Harinder pointing out the obvious… BTW, why don’t we ask Theo Van Gogh about Islamic supremacism?