A Sad Chapter

ragi.jpegAs many Sikhs throughout the world are gearing up to celebrate Vaisakhi, we continuously get disheartening news as well. In Toronto there was a shameful incident this weekend.

From the Toronto Star:
A former judge, now a prominent Brampton lawyer, is in hospital with serious stab wounds when a mob turned deadly at a Sikh temple on Friday evening.
Manjit Mangat, 53, is in hospital with multiple stab wounds to his abdomen, thighs and legs and cuts on his face after he was attacked inside the Sikh Lehar Centre, a temple at Bramsteele Rd. near Steeles Ave. and Hwy. 410.[link]
The event came about as some Sikhs went to protest a talk being given by former Akal Takht Jathedar, Professor Darshan Singh. Professor Darshan Singh has become the center of controversy due to his views on the Dasam Granth. Recently he has been declared tankhaiya by Jathedar Gurbachan Singh. I will not discuss the issue in all of its context here, due to a lack of time, but have raised some issues prior. However, in that post I expressed:
The worst exhibit I saw ..and I know BOTH sides are guilty of this, was the declaration that the other side are not Sikhs. Both sides need to mature and grow up. I hope the Sikh youth can provide a better example for our elders.[link]
Unfortunately it has now led to bloodshed.
Panthic Weekly is celebrating, describing the incident as a victory with cronies routed and humiliated. In their coverage, there is no mention of the melee and bloodshed. One can have their own opinions and bias, but at least mention the violence that occurred.
Many in the Sikh blogosphere are commenting on the case. One thoughtful commenter on Facebook reported the following that I copy in full:
Before people read this, everyone knows I am for Guru Gobind Singh Ji’s bani, but what happened in Toronto yesterday must be explained from an objective viewpoint and not the biased and extreme panthic.org viewpoint.
Some facts of what happened April 2, 2010 at Sikh Lehar Centre in Toronto, *based on eyewitness accounts, I was not there, but 3-4 people I have talked to were*
– Pro-Dasam-Granth Singhs were heard making “battle-tactics”, how to get into Sikh Lehar Centre, and remarking they will chop Darshan Singh and his supporters into peices
– Pro-Dasam-Granth Singhs were heard saying, “if you are not ready to give your head today, then leave” making it seem like it was a battle to the death.
– Pro-Dasam-Granth Singhs went into a “formation” to try to enter the Sikh Lehar Centre and were stopped at the door. After being refused to get in, weapons were drawn and Sikh Lehar Centre members were attacked with swords and sticks.
– Sikh Lehar Centre members were hit with swords and sticks.
This shows that clearly Singhs went there with an intention to inflict bodily harm towards members of Sikh Lehar Centre. Panthic.org’s report and Jasdev’s report that Singhs attacked in self-defense is total bullshit. Jasdev Singh, by the way, showed up after the altercation occurred, so him posting a picture (which he took after everything happened) and inferring that he was there while it happened is bullshit.
Many Singhs, who are Pro-Dasam Granth, left after seeing the extremism and total disregard for humanity.
So this brings us to the point, should we be actively trying to kill/harm people who do not support Dasam Granth? Do not get me wrong, protesting peacefully is one thing, but going directly and trying to bust into a gurdrawa and ‘chop into peices’ Anti-Dasam Granth supporters is another.
I do not support this view and anyone who does should seriously re-think their beliefs. A very big percent of the Panth right now does not even believe in Raagmala from Adi Guru Granth Sahib, are you going to massacre all of them? What about the part of the Panth that does not believe in Sarbloh Granth, which btw is a pretty common belief even amongst the traditional Sikh groups like the Nirmala Sampradya.
Education is the only solution to the Anti-Dasam Granth problem. Fighting only polarizes the situation, because it creates and places more faith in the minds of the Anti-Dasam Granth supporters.
The Problem we have is that we ourselves, the Pro-Dasam Granth supporters are not even educated, and are not getting out there to the public and doing as much prachaar as the anti-dasam granth lot. [link]
I give credence to such an opinion, because the individual is writing their own name and seems to express an opinion of many. Even on discussion boards where many are celebrating the action, there are a number of voices calling for calm and that such action is not in the best interest of the community. One on the Sikh Sangat messageboard decried:
It’s sad, when someone such as myself who actually agrees that Sri Dasam Granth is Bani, cannot even have a civil conversation with those such as yourself who hold a similar stance without being subjected to insanely ridiculous accusations.
Unfortunately this is the state of our community. We are quick to label each one another anti-Sikh, government stooge, in this camp or that. I dont know what the ramifications will be in Canada. Will this event be used as an illustration for racist nativist efforts to have the kirpan banned?
As a community, we have riled up rhetoric and discussions akin to “you are either with us or the enemy.”
I fear that when such events occur, instead of any sort of victory, all of us lose.

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64 Responses to “A Sad Chapter”

  1. Karan Singh says:

    While i am the first to state that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but when the authority of Sri Akhaal Takht Sahib Jee is being challenged then we have to let our voices be heard.

    Ragi Darshan Singh has rightly so been excommunicated from the Sikh Panth by Sri Akaal Takat Sahib; hence he CANNOT be allowed to give sermons on any sikh stages let alone inside a Gurdwara. Anyone that associated with him in any way too becomes a tankaiyaa.

    Now back to the incident at hand, i'm from the UK so won't comment on what happened in Toronto but I will refer back to the protest that took place in Southall (UK). Feeling very strongly about not allowing Ragi any stage time at Gurooghar's i attended the protest. Not being a violent person what so ever, my aim was to stand in solidarity with my fellow sikh brothers and let Ragi and his associates know that we will not allow the authority of Sri Akaal Takhat Sahib be challenged.

    Everything was peaceful until the 30 men who can only be referred to as 'thugs' starting hurling abuse at the peaceful protest outside. I cannot even repeat the words they said inside the gurdwara to my fellow brothers let alone repeat them to all the sangat. I was disgusted and shocked at their behaviours and not to sound judgemental in anyway but they were the kind of guys that never attend a Gurooghar and were 'planted' there.

    A 15yr old boys damalla was ripped off of his head by the thugs inside and then came out their weapons and gaddassa's . At no point did the police stop the thugs who were in full view of the police and saw they had weapons and using them on the singhs but the police unleashed their rage on the Khalsa outside instead. They were fully equipped and had stacks of bricks and other objects ready to use inside the gurooghar.

    What i am trying to say is i went with peaceful intention and i remained peaceful but the abuse and thuggery shown by the people inside was despicable and when this happens emotions can run high and things go out of control. It very easy to sit behind a screen and say that what happened in Toronto was wrong but unless you were there we can't always get the complete truth and therefore hard to make any comments.

    What i will say and will stand by is that Ragi Darshan Singh has challenged Sikhi to its core and now is challenging the authority of Sri Akaal Takhat Sahib Jee, he should not be allowed anytime on any Sikh stages and if he is, then I will surely turn up, alone if need be, to and protest peaceful to let him and him associated knows that he is not welcome here!

  2. Karan Singh says:

    While i am the first to state that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but when the authority of Sri Akhaal Takht Sahib Jee is being challenged then we have to let our voices be heard.

    Ragi Darshan Singh has rightly so been excommunicated from the Sikh Panth by Sri Akaal Takat Sahib; hence he CANNOT be allowed to give sermons on any sikh stages let alone inside a Gurdwara. Anyone that associated with him in any way too becomes a tankaiyaa.

    Now back to the incident at hand, i'm from the UK so won't comment on what happened in Toronto but I will refer back to the protest that took place in Southall (UK). Feeling very strongly about not allowing Ragi any stage time at Gurooghar's i attended the protest. Not being a violent person what so ever, my aim was to stand in solidarity with my fellow sikh brothers and let Ragi and his associates know that we will not allow the authority of Sri Akaal Takhat Sahib be challenged.

    Everything was peaceful until the 30 men who can only be referred to as 'thugs' starting hurling abuse at the peaceful protest outside. I cannot even repeat the words they said inside the gurdwara to my fellow brothers let alone repeat them to all the sangat. I was disgusted and shocked at their behaviours and not to sound judgemental in anyway but they were the kind of guys that never attend a Gurooghar and were 'planted' there.

    A 15yr old boys damalla was ripped off of his head by the thugs inside and then came out their weapons and gaddassa's . At no point did the police stop the thugs who were in full view of the police and saw they had weapons and using them on the singhs but the police unleashed their rage on the Khalsa outside instead. They were fully equipped and had stacks of bricks and other objects ready to use inside the gurooghar.

    What i am trying to say is i went with peaceful intention and i remained peaceful but the abuse and thuggery shown by the people inside was despicable and when this happens emotions can run high and things go out of control. It very easy to sit behind a screen and say that what happened in Toronto was wrong but unless you were there we can't always get the complete truth and therefore hard to make any comments.

    What i will say and will stand by is that Ragi Darshan Singh has challenged Sikhi to its core and now is challenging the authority of Sri Akaal Takhat Sahib Jee, he should not be allowed anytime on any Sikh stages and if he is, then I will surely turn up, alone if need be, to and protest peaceful to let him and him associated knows that he is not welcome here!

  3. Harinder says:

    American and Canadian Sikhs should in their get together discuss and delve upon some major landmark philosophical thought of the countries they inhabit

    1) The Enlightenment

    http://www.sullivan-county.com/deism/enlightenmen

    2)Thomas Jefferson's Letters on Liberty and Religion

    http://www.sullivan-county.com/deism/jeff_letters

  4. Harinder says:

    American and Canadian Sikhs should in their get together discuss and delve upon some major landmark philosophical thought of the countries they inhabit

    1) The Enlightenment

    http://www.sullivan-county.com/deism/enlightenmen

    2)Thomas Jefferson's Letters on Liberty and Religion

    http://www.sullivan-county.com/deism/jeff_letters

  5. Tajinder says:

    Tyranny of the minority
    It seems that though not the majority of the community population is participating in violent acts a hand full of people are, and the majority are just sheep who follow the easy way out encouraged by these small groups. This majority is no different than the people who cheered on as Galileo was sentenced by the Church for his viewpoints. Instead of studying the sciences it was just easier to blindly believe an established institution. This is the state of these people today.

  6. Tajinder says:

    Tyranny of the minority
    It seems that though not the majority of the community population is participating in violent acts a hand full of people are, and the majority are just sheep who follow the easy way out encouraged by these small groups. This majority is no different than the people who cheered on as Galileo was sentenced by the Church for his viewpoints. Instead of studying the sciences it was just easier to blindly believe an established institution. This is the state of these people today.

  7. MissKhalsa says:

    Here in Edmonton Alberta Canada , prof. Dharshan CHAND has been recruiting innocent singhs to spread his preachings, this has caused some controversy, also the the Gurdwara comities are just a big scam to make money down here so they'l let anybody do their thing as long as they get a piece of the pie. If Gurdwara saibhs would enforce the hukamnama then there would be no problems.

  8. MissKhalsa says:

    Here in Edmonton Alberta Canada , prof. Dharshan CHAND has been recruiting innocent singhs to spread his preachings, this has caused some controversy, also the the Gurdwara comities are just a big scam to make money down here so they'l let anybody do their thing as long as they get a piece of the pie. If Gurdwara saibhs would enforce the hukamnama then there would be no problems.

  9. Tejwant Singh says:

    I have some general questions for my own understanding of Sikhi and they are more like " thinking aloud" thoughts rather than directed towards anyone.

    1.What does ex-communication mean according to Sikh values?

    2.Can someone explain what kind of Gurmat values it is based on which are prescribed by our Gurus in SGGS?

    3. How can one stop someone from being a Learner- a Sikh- a Seeker?
    Ex- communication also defies and shows its disregard for Gurbani, which says, " Sabh Gobind hein, Gobind bin nahin koi".

    4.How can one ex-communicate Gobind?

  10. Singh says:

    This was a very sad event, no matter what yours views on the controversy. I've heard that next weekend is gearing upto be even more active, Gursikhs assulting other Gursikhs! How sad.

  11. Tejwant Singh says:

    I have some general questions for my own understanding of Sikhi and they are more like " thinking aloud" thoughts rather than directed towards anyone.

    1.What does ex-communication mean according to Sikh values?

    2.Can someone explain what kind of Gurmat values it is based on which are prescribed by our Gurus in SGGS?

    3. How can one stop someone from being a Learner- a Sikh- a Seeker?
    Ex- communication also defies and shows its disregard for Gurbani, which says, " Sabh Gobind hein, Gobind bin nahin koi".

    4.How can one ex-communicate Gobind?

  12. Singh says:

    This was a very sad event, no matter what yours views on the controversy. I've heard that next weekend is gearing upto be even more active, Gursikhs assulting other Gursikhs! How sad.

  13. Tejwant Singh says:

    A crime is a crime, no matter who commits it for whatever reason one may have. This was a disgraceful act which is condemned in any religion which breeds goodness within.
    This act shows how some of us have still a long way to go to become open minded by following the SGGS, our only Guru.
    This is the time for the Akal Takhat and SGPC to come out and condemn this violent act on an innocent person.

  14. sewa says:

    quite simply this is bad behaviour and the perps are no better than the muslim extremists…what will non sikhs think?

    It is sad Sikhs are not a bookish community…the pen is mightier than the sword

  15. Tejwant Singh says:

    A crime is a crime, no matter who commits it for whatever reason one may have. This was a disgraceful act which is condemned in any religion which breeds goodness within.
    This act shows how some of us have still a long way to go to become open minded by following the SGGS, our only Guru.
    This is the time for the Akal Takhat and SGPC to come out and condemn this violent act on an innocent person.

  16. sewa says:

    quite simply this is bad behaviour and the perps are no better than the muslim extremists…what will non sikhs think?

    It is sad Sikhs are not a bookish community…the pen is mightier than the sword

  17. Paramjit Singh says:

    Sewa the pen might be mightier than the sword,however it is the the sword that sent Manjit Mangat to the hospital.Fascist sikhism,fascist islam started to gether in late 70's,and after three decades there is no light at the end of this dark tunnel.Perhaps another couple of decades of bloodbath instigated by the mullah's and jathedars,will knock some sense into these empty heads.

  18. Paramjit Singh says:

    Sewa the pen might be mightier than the sword,however it is the the sword that sent Manjit Mangat to the hospital.Fascist sikhism,fascist islam started to gether in late 70's,and after three decades there is no light at the end of this dark tunnel.Perhaps another couple of decades of bloodbath instigated by the mullah's and jathedars,will knock some sense into these empty heads.

  19. mrsikhnet says:

    Brampton kirpan attack renews debate over Sikh daggers. Temple president stabbed with kirpan – http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/crime/article/791

  20. mrsikhnet says:

    Brampton kirpan attack renews debate over Sikh daggers. Temple president stabbed with kirpan – http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/crime/article/791

  21. iSingh says:

    Sikhs continue to make themselves the laughing stock. The gurudwara politics is sickening and has alienated a whole generation of young educated Sikhs who would not bear any allegiance to the Sikh religious establishment. Fools. No wonder people are moving out of the Sikh ghettos of Surrey etc to provide a more healthy environment for their kids.

    On that note, does anyone know where does the money collected by one Dr. G.S. Aulakh of Council of Khalstan, end up? I think this is a scam going on fleecing thousands of American sikhs of their hard earned money which they would have otherwise donated to philanthropic causes.

    P.S. – Excommunication is yet another ridiculous concepts enforced by religio-political powers. The jathedars are giving islamists a fight for religious intolerance.

  22. iSingh says:

    Sikhs continue to make themselves the laughing stock. The gurudwara politics is sickening and has alienated a whole generation of young educated Sikhs who would not bear any allegiance to the Sikh religious establishment. Fools. No wonder people are moving out of the Sikh ghettos of Surrey etc to provide a more healthy environment for their kids.

    On that note, does anyone know where does the money collected by one Dr. G.S. Aulakh of Council of Khalstan, end up? I think this is a scam going on fleecing thousands of American sikhs of their hard earned money which they would have otherwise donated to philanthropic causes.

    P.S. – Excommunication is yet another ridiculous concepts enforced by religio-political powers. The jathedars are giving islamists a fight for religious intolerance.

  23. kanwar says:

    This is such a sad and pathetic incident! In the past I have always supported the rights of Sikhs to carry a kirpan but 10 years of communication and easing the fears of our neighboring communities is wiped out by one idiot in a split second! And it's 50 year old culprit!! so how do we convince non Sikhs that Kirpans are safe in schools in the hands of Kids?! I once gave a talk to a classroom of young school teachers to convince them that such fears were overblown and media driven. What an embarrassing waste of time and effort! It is a completely hopeless battle and I have no idea what I could possibly say to sway anybody if they brought up this incident.

  24. kanwar says:

    This is such a sad and pathetic incident! In the past I have always supported the rights of Sikhs to carry a kirpan but 10 years of communication and easing the fears of our neighboring communities is wiped out by one idiot in a split second! And it's 50 year old culprit!! so how do we convince non Sikhs that Kirpans are safe in schools in the hands of Kids?! I once gave a talk to a classroom of young school teachers to convince them that such fears were overblown and media driven. What an embarrassing waste of time and effort! It is a completely hopeless battle and I have no idea what I could possibly say to sway anybody if they brought up this incident.

  25. Harinder says:

    This case will get quoted in all subsequent debates on Kirpan .
    The future gen Sikhs will be held accountable for this actions.
    SAD but TRUE

  26. Harinder says:

    This case will get quoted in all subsequent debates on Kirpan .
    The future gen Sikhs will be held accountable for this actions.
    SAD but TRUE

  27. iSingh says:

    @kanwar

    Not sure how carrying Kirpans by kids (or by anyone else for that matter) will help them in their spirituality. The primary tenet of Guru's was to preach against any form of physical symbolism but alas, that is what the Sikhi today has come to.

    Will you send your kids to a school where other kids carry miniature nunchucks, axes, chilli powder, or miniature versions of thousands of other hazardous objects. We spend thousands of dollars to make our homes safe and then hand over kirpans to the kids. Amazing.

  28. kanwar says:

    @ iSingh I'm in total agreement with you. I think in the past I felt the need to support the right to wear kirpans out of a sense of solidarity with the community and the many, many Sikhs who do so responsibly. Also, this is the first really serious incidence of misuse that I know of in Canada (everything else that I recall tended to be blow out of proportion). This incident has just made me see the issue without a Sikh bias.

  29. kanwar says:

    @ iSingh I'm in total agreement with you. I think in the past I felt the need to support the right to wear kirpans out of a sense of solidarity with the community and the many, many Sikhs who do so responsibly. Also, this is the first really serious incidence of misuse that I know of in Canada (everything else that I recall tended to be blow out of proportion). This incident has just made me see the issue without a Sikh bias.

  30. iSingh says:

    @kanwar

    Not sure how carrying Kirpans by kids (or by anyone else for that matter) will help them in their spirituality. The primary tenet of Guru's was to preach against any form of physical symbolism but alas, that is what the Sikhi today has come to.

    Will you send your kids to a school where other kids carry miniature nunchucks, axes, chilli powder, or miniature versions of thousands of other hazardous objects. We spend thousands of dollars to make our homes safe and then hand over kirpans to the kids. Amazing.

  31. Sundeep Singh says:

    quote from Prabhjot Singh continued:
    I myself did take part in this as well. I continued to push my way inside. I saw a Singh pick up a metal pole but I took it away from him and threw it away. We did fight, but we were not going to use unnecessary force. From this point, I went back outside and saw a police dog attack a Singh. The dog was biting his hand even though the Singh was in the back and not apart of the scuffle itself.

    It was at this point that the police intervened and broke up the fight. As we were leaving, we did see Sikhs who had their dastars knocked off. It was an unfortunate sight but a dastar of Guru Gobind Singh Ji can only be claimed by the person wearing it if that person believes in Jaap Sahib and Chaupai Sahib.

    We moved away from the door and were gathered in the parking lot. A police officer was speaking to me when I noticed a young man by the name of Randeep Singh talking to a police officer in the distance. He was staring right at me and pointing. He then pointed to his Kara and made a gesture that I was using it to hit someone. The Kara could be used as a Shastar, but I never used it to hit anyone either. This is clearly an example of how this party lies to exaggerate a situation and blow up a situation to something way more severe.

    After standing around and trying to understand what was happening, the Singhs then left back to Glidden Gurdwara. From there we made sure that everyone was safe and sound and that everyone was back.

    It is also worth mentioning that a couple of Amritdhari, Keski wearing aunties went to Sikh Lehar to do Darshan of Maharaj on their own. They had no affiliation with us but they were also stopped as well. They were issued a notice of Trespass and asked to not come to the Sikh Lehar Centre from April 2nd 2010 to April 4th 2010. A gurdwara is now denying access to the sangat. Around 7:45ish PM, the Singhs broke up and went their respected ways.

    That was the situation. Now, there has been a lot of negative feedback on the internet regarding all of this. I'd like to address these issues as well.

    Firstly, like I said I was there and involved and in the middle of the action. People are saying things like "…I was not there, but 3-4 people I have talked to were." It is also important to look at the credibility of these sources as well. Do these people have a reason to twist the story around? That is something to look at as well.

    "Pro-Dasam-Granth Singhs were heard making "battle-tactics", how to get into Sikh Lehar Centre, and remarking they will chop Darshan Singh and his supporters into peices." No such plans were made whatsoever. Singhs were discussing, if anything were to go down, how to make sure Maharaj's Satkaar can be kept and no beadbi can be done. We had teenagers with us as well and the older Singhs were cautious and worried about their wellbeing. Chopping Darshan Singh up? Are you honestly going to tell me that in a situation where emotions are high like this, you are not going to say things you may not mean? I don't know how many people have actually been in a fight, but when you are angry and almost hateful to a person, you wish the worst for them. You say things you do not mean, anything to make yourself feel better at that time. If someone really wanted to chop him up, they could go to his academy or his house here in the GTA. If they wanted to kill him, they don't need to come to a Gurdwara to do it. He doesn't have police protection 24/7. Things have just been exaggerated.

    "Pro-Dasam-Granth Singhs were heard saying, "if you are not ready to give your head today, then leave" making it seem like it was a battle to the death." Singhs were saying how Baba Deep Singh Ji said this to the Singhs, remember what those Singhs stood for; Dashmesh Paatshaah's bani. These kind of statements were not made before the protest. This comment was made after the fight and it was not made by one of the main organizers, it was a random member of the sangat. Fighting was not the agenda.

    "Pro-Dasam-Granth Singhs went into a "formation" to try to enter the Sikh Lehar Centre and were stopped at the door. After being refused to get in, weapons were drawn and Sikh Lehar Centre members were attacked with swords and sticks." A formation? Singhs crowded at the door because they wanted to know why they were denied entry. Weapons were drawn? The only Singh with a weapon was Bhai Amarinder Singh Ji Nihang with a Dang and he didn't even get there until 10 minutes after everything went down. Even when he did arrive, he stayed beside his car 200 to 300 ft away from the Gurdwara. There were no swords whatsoever. Singhs who always wear their 3' Sri Sahibs were in the back but not once was it pulled out. Singhs have more sense than that. No weapons were used in any way. Like I said, a Singh picked up a metal pole that was inside the Gurdwara. I then took it away from him in an instant.

  32. Sundeep Singh says:

    quote from Prabhjot Singh continued:

    "Sikh Lehar Centre members were hit with swords and sticks" No they were not. This is all false. No one had anything like that at that time.

    "This shows that clearly Singhs went there with an intention to inflict bodily harm towards members of Sikh Lehar Centre. Panthic.org's report and Jasdev's report that Singhs attacked in self-defense is total bullshit. Jasdev Singh, by the way, showed up after the altercation occurred, so him posting a picture (which he took after everything happened) and inferring that he was there while it happened is bullshit." Singhs did Ardas in front of Guru Maharaj before we left. I had joked with Bhai Hardeep Singh Ji before we left saying that if things go down just give the order, he then said "Prabhjot Singh, we are not to fight unless Guru Sahib puts us in the situation." We left with keeping things civil and peaceful in mind. It escalated to that point where we had to fight. Jasdev Singh was late for the altercation due to a sewa that the Singhs had asked him to carry out for this particular event. We left with peaceful means in mind and the sewa was tied in with that. The older Singhs asked me to forward the message to Jasdev Singh. I called Jasdev Singh and told him the sewa the older Singhs wanted to be done. He was in the process of returning when everything transpired. He arrived 5 minutes after it happened.

    "So this brings us to the point, should we be actively trying to kill/harm people who do not support Dasam Granth? Do not get me wrong, protesting peacefully is one thing, but going directly and trying to bust into a gurdrawa and 'chop into peices' Anti-Dasam Granth supporters is another." This is masala adding at it's finest. These words have been used to blow up this situation to something it's not. Singhs didn't go to fight at first. We definitely did not go to kill anyone. These words are opinion and not fact. Let's not mix it up.

    "I do not support this view and anyone who does should seriously re-think their beliefs. A very big percent of the Panth right now does not even believe in Raagmala from Adi Guru Granth Sahib, are you going to massacre all of them? What about the part of the Panth that does not believe in Sarbloh Granth, which btw is a pretty common belief even amongst the traditional Sikh groups like the Nirmala Sampradya." Why should people rethink their beliefs if they support this view? Do people not see the subtle brainwashing going on? The Raagmala is an issue that Akal Takht Sahib said that if anyone wants to read it they can, and if they don't they don't have to. Akal Takht Sahib has not made that kind of fainslaa, decision, towards Sri Dasam Granth. Dasam Granth, Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaars and Bhai Nand Lal Ji's Vaars and other Granths are accepted and sung at Sri Harmandir Sahib. It's accepted by the Khalsa Panth and the Punj Takhts.

    "The Problem we have is that we ourselves, the Pro-Dasam Granth supporters are not even educated, and are not getting out there to the public and doing as much prachaar as the anti-dasam granth lot." I do not agree with this at all. There are many educated Pro Dasam Granth supporters. I think by throwing unnecessary questions out there, this person may be creating more divisions in the Panth than needed. Many Niddar Nang supporters have this notion in their mind that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Why is it then that their leader had to ask for maafi, forgiveness, at Sri Hazoor Sahib from Baba Kulwant Singh Ji at the 300 year Celebrations back in 2008?

    The goal was to stop Darshan Lal from doing Keertan. He was stopped, the goal was achieved.

    "…He sat at home and we fought amongst ourselves before the throne of our Guru." We did not fight in the Darbar hall. It was outside.

    "keep this up and we're on the path of creating a Sunni-Shia type divide in the panth." I think you guys have become to sensitive towards fighting. Fights broke out during the Guru's times as well. No one said anything back then. Have we come to the point that we believe our Guru to be a weakling and fighting in it's presence is a sight Maharaj cannot see? They have seen fighting for the past 400 years, what makes us think that we'll stop now? You're telling me that when Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji was resolving issues between the sangat, fights didn't break out then? Do we not see his jot in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Punj Takhts, Sikh scholars, philosophers, Sant Samaj, Sants and Mahapurkhs, Ragis, Snantan Sikh Sampardhaas, I.E, Damdami Taksal, Nihang Dals, Nirmala Sampardhaas, etc all believe in Dasam Granth. These Anti Dasam Supporters, make up no more than 5% of the Panth. A Sunni Shia division can only be something like 50-50 60-40 or even 70-30. Not 95-5.

  33. Sundeep Singh says:

    There are three eyewitness points of view that have been posted elsewhere on the net that I would like to re-post here. I was not at the event, but these people were. The account posted above is not an eyewitness account, a lot of what is written are things that the Singh in question heard, which renders much of the comment hearsay.

    Eyewitness #1: Posted by: JugrajSingh on Tapoban forum. Date: April 08, 2010 04:05PM
    This is exceptionally important to read but I cannot post it all as it is too long. Please read it from
    http://www.tapoban.org/forum/read.php?1,6528

    Eyewitness #2: Harjeet Sahota from Facebook

    i was there..it was unfortunate but as an observer one has to remember that the side that got stabbed was not pacify the crowd as the artcle says…the guy was swearing and not letting people into a gurdwara as well his followers had metal rods which they brandished and charged at the people outside with..i am NOT in anyway affliated with any side…I am just telling what i saw…In fact I am friends with the son of the guy who got stabbed but his followers did brandish weapons first

    Eyewitness #3: Prabhjot Singh from Facebook Saturday, April 3, 2010 at 12:57pm. (I'll post what i can on this comment, and will post whatever's left in further comment spaces if I can.)

    After the events that occurred on April 2nd 2010 at the Sikh Lehar Centre, and after all the negative feedback online, I feel it's crucial to post the facts of what happened on our side.

    Firstly, I think it's important to address the fact that I myself was present and personally involved in everything that transpired. I am not going by what other have said to me, no libel or hearsay.

    On April 2nd, 2010, around 1 PM in the afternoon, I received a phone call from Jasdev Singh who told me of the protest against Darshan Lal. I then proceeded to call up many Singhs, including Bhai Ajit Singh Ji Nihang, Bhai Gursheel Singh Ji, Bhai Amarinder Singh Ji Nihang etc. I told them of the protest; many whom said they would try to make it out.

    At approximately 5:15 PM, I along with a couple of younger Singhs arrived at Guru Nanak Sikh Centre (Glidden Guru Ghar) and met many Singhs belonging to many different Jathebandis (Akhand Keertani Jatha Tapoban Sahib, Damdami Taksal, etc) After about 30 to 45 minutes of waiting for more Singhs to show up, we all went into the Karate and Gatka Hall in the back. There, Bhai Hardeep Singh Ji, Jathedar of the Punj Pyare, addressed the Singhs and told us that our number one goal is to stop Darshan Lal from doing Keertan without any violence whatsoever. Bhai Daljit Singh Ji Sekhon spoke as well, along with Bhai Amarjit Singh Ji Mann. We then proceeded to the main Darbar Hall where ardas was done and Hukamnama was taken. I wish I could say I remember the Hukamnama but I regretfully do not.

    The Singhs then left for Sikh Lehar Centre. It is also important to point out that undercover police officers were across the street taking pictures and notes. We arrived at Sikh Lehar Centre and went to the front door. Police was already on sight and but did nothing to prevent the events. When we arrived, the President Bhai Manjit Singh Mangat, along with his party were blocking the door and refusing us entry. We said that we were simply there to do darshan of Maharaj's Darbar and this is a Gurdwara for the Sangat so denying us entry is not allowed. Manjit Singh Mangat then said that this Gurdwara is run by private money and the land is private property, thus we were trespassing. Can a Gurdwara's doors ever be shut to anyone? I thought we were taught that a Gurdwara is open to anyone no matter their caste, creed, race, sex, affiliation etc. From there, a small pushing session started. I myself broke it up and stood in the middle to calm things down. I said to Manjit Singh Mangat that we just want to come in, this Gurdwara is for our Guru and his sangat, how can he deny us entry? A member of his party then pushed me, thus the Singhs began to push back. Their entire party then pushed against the Singhs. From there, punches were thrown by both sides. Manjit Singh Mangat was pulled out and began to throw a punch at a few Singhs. He was then beat down. A few other Singhs were punched, and only then they fought back.

  34. Sundeep Singh says:

    There are three eyewitness points of view that have been posted elsewhere on the net that I would like to re-post here. I was not at the event, but these people were. The account posted above is not an eyewitness account, a lot of what is written are things that the Singh in question heard, which renders much of the comment hearsay.

    Eyewitness #1: Posted by: JugrajSingh on Tapoban forum. Date: April 08, 2010 04:05PM
    This is exceptionally important to read but I cannot post it all as it is too long. Please read it from
    http://www.tapoban.org/forum/read.php?1,6528

    Eyewitness #2: Harjeet Sahota from Facebook

    i was there..it was unfortunate but as an observer one has to remember that the side that got stabbed was not pacify the crowd as the artcle says…the guy was swearing and not letting people into a gurdwara as well his followers had metal rods which they brandished and charged at the people outside with..i am NOT in anyway affliated with any side…I am just telling what i saw…In fact I am friends with the son of the guy who got stabbed but his followers did brandish weapons first

    Eyewitness #3: Prabhjot Singh from Facebook Saturday, April 3, 2010 at 12:57pm. (I'll post what i can on this comment, and will post whatever's left in further comment spaces if I can.)

    After the events that occurred on April 2nd 2010 at the Sikh Lehar Centre, and after all the negative feedback online, I feel it's crucial to post the facts of what happened on our side.

    Firstly, I think it's important to address the fact that I myself was present and personally involved in everything that transpired. I am not going by what other have said to me, no libel or hearsay.

    On April 2nd, 2010, around 1 PM in the afternoon, I received a phone call from Jasdev Singh who told me of the protest against Darshan Lal. I then proceeded to call up many Singhs, including Bhai Ajit Singh Ji Nihang, Bhai Gursheel Singh Ji, Bhai Amarinder Singh Ji Nihang etc. I told them of the protest; many whom said they would try to make it out.

    At approximately 5:15 PM, I along with a couple of younger Singhs arrived at Guru Nanak Sikh Centre (Glidden Guru Ghar) and met many Singhs belonging to many different Jathebandis (Akhand Keertani Jatha Tapoban Sahib, Damdami Taksal, etc) After about 30 to 45 minutes of waiting for more Singhs to show up, we all went into the Karate and Gatka Hall in the back. There, Bhai Hardeep Singh Ji, Jathedar of the Punj Pyare, addressed the Singhs and told us that our number one goal is to stop Darshan Lal from doing Keertan without any violence whatsoever. Bhai Daljit Singh Ji Sekhon spoke as well, along with Bhai Amarjit Singh Ji Mann. We then proceeded to the main Darbar Hall where ardas was done and Hukamnama was taken. I wish I could say I remember the Hukamnama but I regretfully do not.

    The Singhs then left for Sikh Lehar Centre. It is also important to point out that undercover police officers were across the street taking pictures and notes. We arrived at Sikh Lehar Centre and went to the front door. Police was already on sight and but did nothing to prevent the events. When we arrived, the President Bhai Manjit Singh Mangat, along with his party were blocking the door and refusing us entry. We said that we were simply there to do darshan of Maharaj's Darbar and this is a Gurdwara for the Sangat so denying us entry is not allowed. Manjit Singh Mangat then said that this Gurdwara is run by private money and the land is private property, thus we were trespassing. Can a Gurdwara's doors ever be shut to anyone? I thought we were taught that a Gurdwara is open to anyone no matter their caste, creed, race, sex, affiliation etc. From there, a small pushing session started. I myself broke it up and stood in the middle to calm things down. I said to Manjit Singh Mangat that we just want to come in, this Gurdwara is for our Guru and his sangat, how can he deny us entry? A member of his party then pushed me, thus the Singhs began to push back. Their entire party then pushed against the Singhs. From there, punches were thrown by both sides. Manjit Singh Mangat was pulled out and began to throw a punch at a few Singhs. He was then beat down. A few other Singhs were punched, and only then they fought back.

  35. Sundeep Singh says:

    quote from Prabhjot Singh continued:
    I myself did take part in this as well. I continued to push my way inside. I saw a Singh pick up a metal pole but I took it away from him and threw it away. We did fight, but we were not going to use unnecessary force. From this point, I went back outside and saw a police dog attack a Singh. The dog was biting his hand even though the Singh was in the back and not apart of the scuffle itself.

    It was at this point that the police intervened and broke up the fight. As we were leaving, we did see Sikhs who had their dastars knocked off. It was an unfortunate sight but a dastar of Guru Gobind Singh Ji can only be claimed by the person wearing it if that person believes in Jaap Sahib and Chaupai Sahib.

    We moved away from the door and were gathered in the parking lot. A police officer was speaking to me when I noticed a young man by the name of Randeep Singh talking to a police officer in the distance. He was staring right at me and pointing. He then pointed to his Kara and made a gesture that I was using it to hit someone. The Kara could be used as a Shastar, but I never used it to hit anyone either. This is clearly an example of how this party lies to exaggerate a situation and blow up a situation to something way more severe.

    After standing around and trying to understand what was happening, the Singhs then left back to Glidden Gurdwara. From there we made sure that everyone was safe and sound and that everyone was back.

    It is also worth mentioning that a couple of Amritdhari, Keski wearing aunties went to Sikh Lehar to do Darshan of Maharaj on their own. They had no affiliation with us but they were also stopped as well. They were issued a notice of Trespass and asked to not come to the Sikh Lehar Centre from April 2nd 2010 to April 4th 2010. A gurdwara is now denying access to the sangat. Around 7:45ish PM, the Singhs broke up and went their respected ways.

    That was the situation. Now, there has been a lot of negative feedback on the internet regarding all of this. I'd like to address these issues as well.

    Firstly, like I said I was there and involved and in the middle of the action. People are saying things like "…I was not there, but 3-4 people I have talked to were." It is also important to look at the credibility of these sources as well. Do these people have a reason to twist the story around? That is something to look at as well.

    "Pro-Dasam-Granth Singhs were heard making "battle-tactics", how to get into Sikh Lehar Centre, and remarking they will chop Darshan Singh and his supporters into peices." No such plans were made whatsoever. Singhs were discussing, if anything were to go down, how to make sure Maharaj's Satkaar can be kept and no beadbi can be done. We had teenagers with us as well and the older Singhs were cautious and worried about their wellbeing. Chopping Darshan Singh up? Are you honestly going to tell me that in a situation where emotions are high like this, you are not going to say things you may not mean? I don't know how many people have actually been in a fight, but when you are angry and almost hateful to a person, you wish the worst for them. You say things you do not mean, anything to make yourself feel better at that time. If someone really wanted to chop him up, they could go to his academy or his house here in the GTA. If they wanted to kill him, they don't need to come to a Gurdwara to do it. He doesn't have police protection 24/7. Things have just been exaggerated.

    "Pro-Dasam-Granth Singhs were heard saying, "if you are not ready to give your head today, then leave" making it seem like it was a battle to the death." Singhs were saying how Baba Deep Singh Ji said this to the Singhs, remember what those Singhs stood for; Dashmesh Paatshaah's bani. These kind of statements were not made before the protest. This comment was made after the fight and it was not made by one of the main organizers, it was a random member of the sangat. Fighting was not the agenda.

    "Pro-Dasam-Granth Singhs went into a "formation" to try to enter the Sikh Lehar Centre and were stopped at the door. After being refused to get in, weapons were drawn and Sikh Lehar Centre members were attacked with swords and sticks." A formation? Singhs crowded at the door because they wanted to know why they were denied entry. Weapons were drawn? The only Singh with a weapon was Bhai Amarinder Singh Ji Nihang with a Dang and he didn't even get there until 10 minutes after everything went down. Even when he did arrive, he stayed beside his car 200 to 300 ft away from the Gurdwara. There were no swords whatsoever. Singhs who always wear their 3' Sri Sahibs were in the back but not once was it pulled out. Singhs have more sense than that. No weapons were used in any way. Like I said, a Singh picked up a metal pole that was inside the Gurdwara. I then took it away from him in an instant.

  36. Sundeep Singh says:

    quote from Prabhjot Singh continued:

    "Sikh Lehar Centre members were hit with swords and sticks" No they were not. This is all false. No one had anything like that at that time.

    "This shows that clearly Singhs went there with an intention to inflict bodily harm towards members of Sikh Lehar Centre. Panthic.org's report and Jasdev's report that Singhs attacked in self-defense is total bullshit. Jasdev Singh, by the way, showed up after the altercation occurred, so him posting a picture (which he took after everything happened) and inferring that he was there while it happened is bullshit." Singhs did Ardas in front of Guru Maharaj before we left. I had joked with Bhai Hardeep Singh Ji before we left saying that if things go down just give the order, he then said "Prabhjot Singh, we are not to fight unless Guru Sahib puts us in the situation." We left with keeping things civil and peaceful in mind. It escalated to that point where we had to fight. Jasdev Singh was late for the altercation due to a sewa that the Singhs had asked him to carry out for this particular event. We left with peaceful means in mind and the sewa was tied in with that. The older Singhs asked me to forward the message to Jasdev Singh. I called Jasdev Singh and told him the sewa the older Singhs wanted to be done. He was in the process of returning when everything transpired. He arrived 5 minutes after it happened.

    "So this brings us to the point, should we be actively trying to kill/harm people who do not support Dasam Granth? Do not get me wrong, protesting peacefully is one thing, but going directly and trying to bust into a gurdrawa and 'chop into peices' Anti-Dasam Granth supporters is another." This is masala adding at it's finest. These words have been used to blow up this situation to something it's not. Singhs didn't go to fight at first. We definitely did not go to kill anyone. These words are opinion and not fact. Let's not mix it up.

    "I do not support this view and anyone who does should seriously re-think their beliefs. A very big percent of the Panth right now does not even believe in Raagmala from Adi Guru Granth Sahib, are you going to massacre all of them? What about the part of the Panth that does not believe in Sarbloh Granth, which btw is a pretty common belief even amongst the traditional Sikh groups like the Nirmala Sampradya." Why should people rethink their beliefs if they support this view? Do people not see the subtle brainwashing going on? The Raagmala is an issue that Akal Takht Sahib said that if anyone wants to read it they can, and if they don't they don't have to. Akal Takht Sahib has not made that kind of fainslaa, decision, towards Sri Dasam Granth. Dasam Granth, Bhai Gurdas Ji's Vaars and Bhai Nand Lal Ji's Vaars and other Granths are accepted and sung at Sri Harmandir Sahib. It's accepted by the Khalsa Panth and the Punj Takhts.

    "The Problem we have is that we ourselves, the Pro-Dasam Granth supporters are not even educated, and are not getting out there to the public and doing as much prachaar as the anti-dasam granth lot." I do not agree with this at all. There are many educated Pro Dasam Granth supporters. I think by throwing unnecessary questions out there, this person may be creating more divisions in the Panth than needed. Many Niddar Nang supporters have this notion in their mind that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Why is it then that their leader had to ask for maafi, forgiveness, at Sri Hazoor Sahib from Baba Kulwant Singh Ji at the 300 year Celebrations back in 2008?

    The goal was to stop Darshan Lal from doing Keertan. He was stopped, the goal was achieved.

    "…He sat at home and we fought amongst ourselves before the throne of our Guru." We did not fight in the Darbar hall. It was outside.

    "keep this up and we're on the path of creating a Sunni-Shia type divide in the panth." I think you guys have become to sensitive towards fighting. Fights broke out during the Guru's times as well. No one said anything back then. Have we come to the point that we believe our Guru to be a weakling and fighting in it's presence is a sight Maharaj cannot see? They have seen fighting for the past 400 years, what makes us think that we'll stop now? You're telling me that when Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji was resolving issues between the sangat, fights didn't break out then? Do we not see his jot in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Punj Takhts, Sikh scholars, philosophers, Sant Samaj, Sants and Mahapurkhs, Ragis, Snantan Sikh Sampardhaas, I.E, Damdami Taksal, Nihang Dals, Nirmala Sampardhaas, etc all believe in Dasam Granth. These Anti Dasam Supporters, make up no more than 5% of the Panth. A Sunni Shia division can only be something like 50-50 60-40 or even 70-30. Not 95-5.

  37. Sundeep Singh says:

    quote from Prabhjot Singh continued:

    "I asked him if he saw dastaars on the ground. He said yes. How does that make you guys feel?
    If you want to get into technicalities about maryada that all you guys always fight about, we can do that
    1. Guru Hargobind's Maryada is that the dusht gets 3 vars, then you respond. This is backed up by Guru Gobind Singh in sri bachittar natak granth, where he allowed 3 arrows to be shot at him before he returned fire
    2. Guru Ramdas allowed himself to be kicked,
    3. They did not allow Guru Teg Bahadur into Darbar Sahib ,and he quietly walked away
    4. You already know what Sri Zafarnamah has to say about when your allowed to take out your shamsheer."

    A dastar on the ground. I've seen people take their dastar off themselves and put it on the ground. Hindus, Muslims, and anyone else used to wear dastaaran as well. It was a sign of royalty. A dastar of Guru Sahib can only be claimed if you're a Singh! If you do not believe in Jaap Sahib and Chaupai Sahib, how can you call yourself a Singh of Dashmesh Pita? A dastar of Kalgidhar Paathshaah's on the ground is a disgrace. An aam pugg on the ground is besti for the person who wears it. Thirdly, there's no "Maryada" in a jang or a fight. Only two rules exist. One: Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji taught us to never do a vaar on a dusht whose running away. Two: Never do a vaar first. There's nothing, aside from the saakhi of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's fight with Hari Chand, that says you have to let three vaar be fired then fight. Only in that saakhi did Guru Sahib let Hari Chand do three vaars. Guru Ram Das Sahib Ji and Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji are the ideal examples of Nimrita. You want to talk about Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji? Why wasn't he given the Gurtagaddi right away? The answer lies in his name: Tegh Bahadur. He was a vicious warrior. Zafarnama says as a last resort. Do you even know the background here? Do you know how many sitdowns and sitdown attempts there have been? I really think you guys are confused as to what the real story is here. When Niddar Nang does his training sessions or demos, his dastar and his students' is on the ground 50% of the time anyway.

    "The Professor was actually at Sikh Lehar when all of this happened. But does it really matter who's right or wrong. Innocent people who were just there to pray and be on their way got hurt…" No innocent person was harmed in any way. Those responsible for causing the mess in the first place were targeted and that's all. Those who are involved were those who understood the situation, that was all. The cops were standing by while the fighting was going on. They waited until it cooled down before they stepped in. Nothing like that happened. If they were pushed then they shouldn't have been so close to the scene. Anyone in the right mind knows to avoid getting hurt, they shouldn't go close to the situation. People did get hurt, but they were involved in the situation to begin with.

    I'm amazed. We have gone from a community of lions to a community of sheep. Why is everyone so afraid of violence and fighting when it's called for? Yes it should be avoided but when it happens, so what? All these ideas that you guys are throwing out have already been thought of and carried out. Agree to disagree? This isn't a argument over something miniscule. To question Gurbani is a HUGE paap and a huge issue; an issue Singhs killed for. Darshan Lal has been asked many times to clear this issue up with Sikh scholars and leaders. He's been called three times to Sri Akal Takht Sahib, each time he failed to sit down and talk. It's ignorance, it's arrogance on his part. Especially since he spent the majority of his lifetime singing bani from Dasam Granth. When he was Jathedar, he could have made a decision regarding Dasam Granth then. Why the silence?

    "Do I have to go attack anti-DG Sikhs and force police to walk inside Gurduara with shoes and heads uncovered?" Police did not go inside. If they went in when we left, maybe you should have tried to explain to them to take it off and cover their heads. We weren't there to stop them, but you were. They didn't go into the Main Darbar because we didn't go there. The scene was only in the area where you take your shoes off anyways.

    Instead of going by hearsay, which causes us to bang our heads and create more fights and more divisions, please get facts straight and if you really wanted to be apart of the solution, then please come out to the prior meetings and be apart of the process. Please do not come out to one program and blow things out of proportion. The amazing part of yesterday's events is the unity that was shown amongst all jathebandiaan. Everyone from any group got together and stopped a man who has been excommunicated from our Panth, which makes him no better than Ashutosh, Sacha Sauda, Narakhdhari etc.

  38. Sundeep Singh says:

    quote from Prabhjot Singh continued:

    "I asked him if he saw dastaars on the ground. He said yes. How does that make you guys feel?
    If you want to get into technicalities about maryada that all you guys always fight about, we can do that
    1. Guru Hargobind's Maryada is that the dusht gets 3 vars, then you respond. This is backed up by Guru Gobind Singh in sri bachittar natak granth, where he allowed 3 arrows to be shot at him before he returned fire
    2. Guru Ramdas allowed himself to be kicked,
    3. They did not allow Guru Teg Bahadur into Darbar Sahib ,and he quietly walked away
    4. You already know what Sri Zafarnamah has to say about when your allowed to take out your shamsheer."

    A dastar on the ground. I've seen people take their dastar off themselves and put it on the ground. Hindus, Muslims, and anyone else used to wear dastaaran as well. It was a sign of royalty. A dastar of Guru Sahib can only be claimed if you're a Singh! If you do not believe in Jaap Sahib and Chaupai Sahib, how can you call yourself a Singh of Dashmesh Pita? A dastar of Kalgidhar Paathshaah's on the ground is a disgrace. An aam pugg on the ground is besti for the person who wears it. Thirdly, there's no "Maryada" in a jang or a fight. Only two rules exist. One: Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji taught us to never do a vaar on a dusht whose running away. Two: Never do a vaar first. There's nothing, aside from the saakhi of Guru Gobind Singh Ji's fight with Hari Chand, that says you have to let three vaar be fired then fight. Only in that saakhi did Guru Sahib let Hari Chand do three vaars. Guru Ram Das Sahib Ji and Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji are the ideal examples of Nimrita. You want to talk about Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib Ji? Why wasn't he given the Gurtagaddi right away? The answer lies in his name: Tegh Bahadur. He was a vicious warrior. Zafarnama says as a last resort. Do you even know the background here? Do you know how many sitdowns and sitdown attempts there have been? I really think you guys are confused as to what the real story is here. When Niddar Nang does his training sessions or demos, his dastar and his students' is on the ground 50% of the time anyway.

    "The Professor was actually at Sikh Lehar when all of this happened. But does it really matter who's right or wrong. Innocent people who were just there to pray and be on their way got hurt…" No innocent person was harmed in any way. Those responsible for causing the mess in the first place were targeted and that's all. Those who are involved were those who understood the situation, that was all. The cops were standing by while the fighting was going on. They waited until it cooled down before they stepped in. Nothing like that happened. If they were pushed then they shouldn't have been so close to the scene. Anyone in the right mind knows to avoid getting hurt, they shouldn't go close to the situation. People did get hurt, but they were involved in the situation to begin with.

    I'm amazed. We have gone from a community of lions to a community of sheep. Why is everyone so afraid of violence and fighting when it's called for? Yes it should be avoided but when it happens, so what? All these ideas that you guys are throwing out have already been thought of and carried out. Agree to disagree? This isn't a argument over something miniscule. To question Gurbani is a HUGE paap and a huge issue; an issue Singhs killed for. Darshan Lal has been asked many times to clear this issue up with Sikh scholars and leaders. He's been called three times to Sri Akal Takht Sahib, each time he failed to sit down and talk. It's ignorance, it's arrogance on his part. Especially since he spent the majority of his lifetime singing bani from Dasam Granth. When he was Jathedar, he could have made a decision regarding Dasam Granth then. Why the silence?

    "Do I have to go attack anti-DG Sikhs and force police to walk inside Gurduara with shoes and heads uncovered?" Police did not go inside. If they went in when we left, maybe you should have tried to explain to them to take it off and cover their heads. We weren't there to stop them, but you were. They didn't go into the Main Darbar because we didn't go there. The scene was only in the area where you take your shoes off anyways.

    Instead of going by hearsay, which causes us to bang our heads and create more fights and more divisions, please get facts straight and if you really wanted to be apart of the solution, then please come out to the prior meetings and be apart of the process. Please do not come out to one program and blow things out of proportion. The amazing part of yesterday's events is the unity that was shown amongst all jathebandiaan. Everyone from any group got together and stopped a man who has been excommunicated from our Panth, which makes him no better than Ashutosh, Sacha Sauda, Narakhdhari etc.

  39. Sundeep Singh says:

    I had hoped that you guys would approve the last part of Prabhjot singh's eyewitness accoutn, as this is an important issue, and closure is needed on that comment. thanks.

  40. Sundeep Singh says:

    I had hoped that you guys would approve the last part of Prabhjot singh's eyewitness accoutn, as this is an important issue, and closure is needed on that comment. thanks.

  41. Suki says:

    Disturbing! People seriously need to grow up. How come the "white" Sikhs are doing a better job of being Sikh? Every time I hear of this kind of rubbish I don't know what to say and it's embarrassing as these people act so immature. No wonder 'things like 'Bollywood' portray Sikhs in a negative light and no wonder people don't take Sikhs seriously. No where is it written that we should hinder our growth as a religion and not embrace 'ideas' and thoughts of others even if we don't agree with them.

  42. Suki says:

    Disturbing! People seriously need to grow up. How come the "white" Sikhs are doing a better job of being Sikh? Every time I hear of this kind of rubbish I don't know what to say and it's embarrassing as these people act so immature. No wonder 'things like 'Bollywood' portray Sikhs in a negative light and no wonder people don't take Sikhs seriously. No where is it written that we should hinder our growth as a religion and not embrace 'ideas' and thoughts of others even if we don't agree with them.

  43. Roop Dhillon says:

    White people aren't Punjabi…an unfair advantage in maturity then…

  44. Roop Dhillon says:

    White people aren't Punjabi…an unfair advantage in maturity then…

  45. M Singh says:

    Its the 'Punjabi Culture' at play. We showed true 'Punjabi Culture' at Toronto.
    High time we develop 'GurSikh Culture'.

  46. M Singh says:

    Its the 'Punjabi Culture' at play. We showed true 'Punjabi Culture' at Toronto.
    High time we develop 'GurSikh Culture'.

  47. Wudjab says:

    Way to go guys.

    Some sort of virus seems to be infecting the SIkh community.. with this incident, the violence that took place over the weekend and the debacle in Surrey BC.

    I'm sure that the Canadian community will be even more open to allowing more Sikhs into Canada.

  48. Wudjab says:

    Way to go guys.

    Some sort of virus seems to be infecting the SIkh community.. with this incident, the violence that took place over the weekend and the debacle in Surrey BC.

    I'm sure that the Canadian community will be even more open to allowing more Sikhs into Canada.

  49. Jasmine says:

    This is the reason why the young generation of Sikhs is turning away from the religion. So much violence, hatred, fanaticism, and bigotry, and then the elders from the Gurudwara dare to lecture people on morality. This happens in England too, it happened in Vienna when people took a gun inside a Gurudwara and one man was murdered. It fills people with disgust. They couldn't do more to destroy the Sikh religion amongst young Sikhs if they tried. They are primitive thugs.

  50. Jasmine says:

    This is the reason why the young generation of Sikhs is turning away from the religion. So much violence, hatred, fanaticism, and bigotry, and then the elders from the Gurudwara dare to lecture people on morality. This happens in England too, it happened in Vienna when people took a gun inside a Gurudwara and one man was murdered. It fills people with disgust. They couldn't do more to destroy the Sikh religion amongst young Sikhs if they tried. They are primitive thugs.

  51. YM Singh says:

    Jasmine,

    I agree that such negative incidents may lead the younger generation away from their religion. But, turning your back to your religion is the easy way out. If we want to see your religions institutes behaving better, we have to get more involved at the gurdwara and try to bring a greater degree of organization and reform to how things are done. At times like these, we need new leaders not people running away.

  52. YM Singh says:

    Jasmine,

    I agree that such negative incidents may lead the younger generation away from their religion. But, turning your back to your religion is the easy way out. If we want to see your religions institutes behaving better, we have to get more involved at the gurdwara and try to bring a greater degree of organization and reform to how things are done. At times like these, we need new leaders not people running away.