Letter from Kashmir

Guest Blogged by Amritpan

kashmir.jpg

Earlier this week I received an email letter from Kashmir. This was not the first such letter from Kashmir, nor I fear, will it be the last. Ive read this letter once, twice, again and again and still cannot begin to explain the helplessness, anger, and despair that I feel each time. Helplessness for the lives of my people lost. Anger for the status quo of violence and periods of strained silence that soon erupt into violence and for this brutal cycle. And despair for seemingly no end in sight, the lack of a process that could bring peace to my homeland.

Below I share this letter with you. Some of it was also published here.

Dear friends and family,

I hope this email reaches you in the best of health and happiness. Im writing to you from Kashmir, where Ive been for the past three weeks.I wanted to write this email to let you know about the deteriorating situation here, as Im frustrated with the lack of coverage or misrepresentation in the international media.Sorry for the length and scattered-ness of this email, but I do hope you read it entirely and spread word about the situation.

To give you a bit of a background, on June 11th, the Indian occupying forces (referred also as the army in this email) killed a young 17-year-old boy, named Tufail, who was walking home amidst a routine protest in downtown Kashmir. Protests are a regular occurrence in Kashmirusually resulting from human rights abuses committed by the Indian occupying forces. The people call for freedom and an end to the Indian occupation in Kashmir. Tufail was not part of the protest, but his life was cut short by a rubber bullet that hit him in the head. During a protest in the days following his brutal murder, another young Kashmiri man, named Rafiq was injured, and succumbed to his injuries a few days later in the hospital. At hisfuneral a day later, his cousin, Javed, was also shot and killed by the forces.The cycle of violence has continuedat the funerals or ensuing protests for the diseased, the occupying forces have killed over 15 youth and critically injured or arrested hundreds. This past Monday, a 17-year-old boy named Muzaffar disappeared after troops chased him and a group of young boys throwing stones. His body was found in a drain the next day and he was allegedly beaten to death. At his funeral, another 16-year old was killed and a stray bullet struck a woman who was standing by her window. She was killed as well. During all of these days, there was a hartaal in all of Kashmir. A hartaal is a strike called by the mainstream parties (they are referred to as the separatist parties, but I do not believe thatterm is accurate since Kashmir never belonged to India and thus the use of the term separatist is false).Kashmiris shut down their businesses, no one goes to work. Schools, banks, government buildings, transportation etc are completely shut down.There is some traffic that moves in more residential areas, but in many areas young boys throw stones at passing vehicles for disobeying the call for hartaal. So most people generally tend not to move around. During the hartaal days, protests have erupted throughout the valley and are violently quelled by the Indian army and local police. However, in the past three days, the situation has gotten so bad that the government has imposed a curfewwhich means that no one is allowed to move outside. It is a way for them to stop all movement, including the protests, but many areas have defied the curfew and protests still ensue. You can only imagine what happens to the people who need to get to hospitalsI read yesterday that the Indian forces refused to allow a sick Kashmiri woman to get to a hospital during the curfew, and she died.

The cycle of violence is maddening, and there seems to be no end to it. The Indian and local puppet governments blame the violence on the youth and their stone-throwing, but even with that in mind, one can hardly rationalize their policy of firing freely and indiscriminately into unarmed crowds (they seem to hold stones to the same level as AK-47s and thus consider these crowds armed) and targeting to kill. The local police have absolutely no training on how to control crowds. To give you a comparison of how the Indians deal with protests in parts of Indiain the violent BJP protests a few days ago in Delhithe authorities shot water balloons into the crowds.

Even as I write, I can hear the bullets from a distancewhether they are from the tear gas that is dispersed into the crowds or actual bullets, I cant tell anymore.I keep hear army convoys driving through the cityIve counted atleast 15 in the past half an hour alone. Where they are going, and what madness they will unleash, God only knows.

Last night I heard a protest around midnightshouts ofazaadi(freedom), loud announcements from the loudspeakers of the nearby mosques, and then all of a sudden, the sudden sounds of the Indian army trucks as they moved towards the direction of the protest. I pray that nothing happened, but Im not sure of that as the government and/or army (one can hardly tell them apart) has decided to completely block the media.

The media censorship began once the violence startedthe local TV news-hour was cut to a mere ten minutesin hopes that the news being reported would not rile people up even further. Now its completely stopped. For a while, the only means of knowing what was going on over the past few weeks was the print newspaper, but today they even stopped the printing of the newspapers. The cell-phone services in the more volatile areas are blocked. Text messaging services all across the valley are also blockedtheyre afraid that the youth will use mass texting to congregate or that media sources will use text messages to let people know about any more deaths/injuries. Yesterday, they also took away the curfew passes of the journalists, and now even the local journalists are unable to cover the stories or move around. Just two days ago, we heard reports of a dozen photojournalists being beaten and severely injured by the Indian occupying forces as they were covering the funeral of one of the young boys who was killed.

What upsets me the most is the coverage of this situation in the Indian news media, which not so ironically, are the only news channels were getting here. I thought the coverage of Israel-Palestine in the American news media was upsetting, but this is to another level. Their stories focus almost entirely on the stone-throwing of the young boys (not the killings or the human rights abuses), and the suspicious role of Pakistan is sponsoring this rogue, extremist behavior. Expert after expert is brought to give analysis of the situation hereand the newscaster always asks Why are the people so angry? Whos behind this? I heard a man yesterday claim that the Kashmiris are actually happy that the army is there, as they feel safe and secure with them around. They view this situation from the prism of terrorism and then sometimes from the prism of a law and order situation. They have no idea, or dont want to have an idea, about the aspirations and wishes of the people here. The Indian public is completely delusional about the situation in Kashmir, and their media is prolonging this delusion. I met an Indian family on my flight from New Delhi to Srinagar who were visiting Kashmir for a week. The lady kept on asking me if I ever saw any terrorists in Kashmir. I told her that all the only terrorists I saw was the Indian army. She was upset by my comment and asked what I meantI told her that just a few days ago the army had killed an innocent young boy. All she could say was well, he must have been a terrorist.She was shocked to hear that anti-Indian sentiments ran deep in Kashmir and kept on denying it and asking if I was an agent for Pakistan.

To give you a sense of the situation on a personal level, the volunteers that come through the organization that I help run (KashmirCorps) have been completely unable to do their work since theyve arrived. It is frustrating to watch, as they were placed in wonderful local NGOs and were so excited to work on their projects. They are waiting anxiously at their hotel to see what happens with the conditions, unable to move around.My parents were supposed to come on Sunday from the States, but they have cancelled their trip. My family here, though, is used to the situation. Im currently staying with my moms side of the family in Srinagar. My grandparents are elderly and need to get some medicines from the pharmacy, but we have been unable to move outside. My little cousin Zainab, who is seven years old, hasnt gone to school for the past three weeks. She asked her mom yesterday to make a special prayer to God that she would be allowed to start school again soon. My uncle, who is a physician and runs his own private clinic, hasnt gone to work for the past three days. During the days of the hartaal, he would leave early in the morning to evade the protests, but then return around noon as none of the patients were able to come.

But what is most heartbreaking for me is my dads side of the family, who lives in Sopore, less than an hour away from Srinagar, the capital city where I am. Sopore is considered to be the Gaza of Kashmir. A number of the boys who were killed were from Sopore, and since Ive arrived, the entire city has been placed on curfew—not just hartaal. There are protests there regularly and encounters between the locals and the army. I have not been able to see my grandmother or my cousins and extended family there since Ive arrived. We were supposed to have three weddings in the family this summer; all of them have been cancelled. I am unable to call them, as their cell phone services have been cut. Every few days, my uncle or aunt manages to call me from one of the phones in the area that is working. I can hear the disappointment in their voicethey just keep on saying If only we could just see your face, thats it. Because of the curfew, their food items are severely restrictedso theyre surviving on the little amount they grow in their gardens or trying to make do with their neighbors.On Sunday, they lifted the curfew for a few hours, and my uncle tried to get to the city to see me. Right around that time, news of the recent killings became known, and the curfew was once again imposed. Because transportation is not allowed, he had to walk nearly 20 kilometers back home. They dont tell me much, they dont want me to worry. But I know that the army there does nightly raids in houses, looking for suspected militants or renegade youth. My cousin there is 14-years oldI worry about him. Hes of their target suspect age.

The situation in downtown Srinagar, just a few kilometers from where Im sitting is also similar. They have also been under curfew for the past three weeks as that is where most of the protests happen. There is a severe shortage of foodwater, milk, meat, bread. I cant even imagine what the situation is like for them. Thank God, these items are available where I live.

The few times we were able to move around, I met with a few leaders of NGOs here that KashmirCorps work with. It is so difficult for them to operate in such conditions as you can imagine. Their plans for the week are completely interrupted and theyre unable to move ahead on their programs or get their work done. Their sense of helplessness is overwhelmingin these circumstances they are completely unable to provide relief or aid to the most impoverished populations here.

Ive also had a chance to meet a few youth and young professionals. What theyre going through is worthy of another separate email. I am impressed and humbled by them, but scared for their futures. One thing Ive noticed is that theyre all becoming quite active on social mediayoutube, facebook, etcspreading the word through that medium about the situation here. I wish they were given more opportunities to express themselves; there is an abundance of potential here that is being completely ignored or misdirected.

I cant tell what will happen here over the next few weeks. But like the cycle of violence, the cycle of disappointment also exists. There will be no justice for the victims of the recent killingsno inquiry by the Indian government, or any international body, no punishment for the perpetrators. That I am 100% sure of. The government might be able to quell the situation momentarily and make claims about how it is serious about the peace process and dialogue with Pakistan. Then, theyll find an excuse to delay it. Meanwhile, the cycle of violence on the ground will continue.

I am going to end this email here. Please, please keep the people here in your thoughts and prayers. And do try to spread the word, even if that means forwarding this email. One of the many reasons the Indian government gets away with what it does in Kashmir is because the issue does not get much international coverage. I have shared a few links of news stories—I will be happy to send more if youre interested.

In peace,

Hafsa


KashmirCorps Blog for this summerread about how the Volunteers are coping with the situation

Local Kashmiri Newspapers: here and here

Article by a young Kashmiri Journalist in an Indian newspaper

Article by a Kashmiri American in the Huffington Post

Kashmiri Blog

LA Times Article: here and here

Al Jazeera Article

BBC

Waving Flag, the Kashmiri Version


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82 Responses to “Letter from Kashmir”

  1. iSingh says:

    Kudos to the author for undertaking humanitarian work in Srinagar. But the perspective in the article/ viewpoint in the letter is quite naive.

  2. iSingh says:

    Kudos to the author for undertaking humanitarian work in Srinagar. But the perspective in the article/ viewpoint in the letter is quite naive.

  3. kabza says:

    @isingh
    Care to explain? Simply making a claim is not very convincing at all, especially in a blog dedicated to a community whose homeland was marred by the blood of innocent civilians by the same regime not too long ago. Unless you think that is a naive viewpoint as well. (ensaaf.org can show you empirically the operation of this regime)

  4. kabza says:

    @isingh
    Care to explain? Simply making a claim is not very convincing at all, especially in a blog dedicated to a community whose homeland was marred by the blood of innocent civilians by the same regime not too long ago. Unless you think that is a naive viewpoint as well. (ensaaf.org can show you empirically the operation of this regime)

  5. iSingh says:

    @kabza
    I said naive, not incorrect. More like an innocent wonder if you will.

  6. Rajinder Singh Virk says:

    If the kashmiris had any viable claim to freedom/independence,after all these years they would have
    presented it.By throwing stones,disrupting public life,destrying public/private property,and spreading
    terror on instigation of pakistan will get them nothing.India cannot & should not relinquish its union with J&K.Ordinary kashmiris should learn a lesson from sikh terrorists,one should not fight with a strong adversary without a good/valid reason,otherwise they will be crushed.

    • Singh says:

      I am confused what you mean? You mentioned Sikh Terrorists. In your country, do you have/had Hindu terrorists or bharti terrorists?
      Which category have been taught to place Bhagat Singh or Subash chandar Bose, Bengali terrorists may be.

  7. iSingh says:

    @kabza
    I said naive, not incorrect. More like an innocent wonder if you will.

  8. Rajinder Singh Virk says:

    If the kashmiris had any viable claim to freedom/independence,after all these years they would have
    presented it.By throwing stones,disrupting public life,destrying public/private property,and spreading
    terror on instigation of pakistan will get them nothing.India cannot & should not relinquish its union with J&K.Ordinary kashmiris should learn a lesson from sikh terrorists,one should not fight with a strong adversary without a good/valid reason,otherwise they will be crushed.

    • Singh says:

      I am confused what you mean? You mentioned Sikh Terrorists. In your country, do you have/had Hindu terrorists or bharti terrorists?
      Which category have been taught to place Bhagat Singh or Subash chandar Bose, Bengali terrorists may be.

  9. pv1947 says:

    There were 522 independent kingdoms and principalities in Aug 1947, not one of which is independent of the succesor states of India and Pakistan. Bangladesh was also a successor state within Pakistan.
    The Kashmiris on one hand deride the Dogra kingdom and on he other want to benefit from it by making a claim to independence based on Dogra raj. Throwing stones at law enforcement is an invitation to counter actions the world over.

  10. pv1947 says:

    There were 522 independent kingdoms and principalities in Aug 1947, not one of which is independent of the succesor states of India and Pakistan. Bangladesh was also a successor state within Pakistan.
    The Kashmiris on one hand deride the Dogra kingdom and on he other want to benefit from it by making a claim to independence based on Dogra raj. Throwing stones at law enforcement is an invitation to counter actions the world over.

  11. Supinder Singh says:

    Kashmir should be granted what it was promised in 1947, a plebiscite. The Kashmiri people should decide their fate. The Indian government of whatever hue has repeatedly distanced itself form such a move, in violation of its original commitment .

    As a Sikh, i feel the Guru's teaching would be in support of people like Hafsa.

  12. Supinder Singh says:

    Kashmir should be granted what it was promised in 1947, a plebiscite. The Kashmiri people should decide their fate. The Indian government of whatever hue has repeatedly distanced itself form such a move, in violation of its original commitment .

    As a Sikh, i feel the Guru's teaching would be in support of people like Hafsa.

  13. Bik says:

    The Kashmiris have a viable strategy here and one which would undo the harm done by their militant movement and it's alignment with Taliban and Islamofascist forces. India can never hold on to Kashmir if there is a stone throwing intifada there, the west will soon tire of India's excuses that it is fighting terrorism if what they see is unarmed protesters being shot by the army. This is why Indian media is in such a tizzy and blaming the stone throwing on people paid by Pakistan to throw stones.

    • MastRam says:

      Actually that's not true. In such stone throwing incidents and strikes, the biggest losers are kashmiris themselves. India doesn't lose much, it has a lot more resources to spend than the ordinary kashmiri. And the west wouldn't care either which way, stone throwing will be treated as a law and order problem to be dealt as such.

      In the long run, stone throwing never worked in Palestine and won't work in Kashmir either. The story of David killing Goliath with a stone makes a good read, but it isn't practical now.

  14. Bik says:

    The Kashmiris have a viable strategy here and one which would undo the harm done by their militant movement and it's alignment with Taliban and Islamofascist forces. India can never hold on to Kashmir if there is a stone throwing intifada there, the west will soon tire of India's excuses that it is fighting terrorism if what they see is unarmed protesters being shot by the army. This is why Indian media is in such a tizzy and blaming the stone throwing on people paid by Pakistan to throw stones.

    • MastRam says:

      Actually that's not true. In such stone throwing incidents and strikes, the biggest losers are kashmiris themselves. India doesn't lose much, it has a lot more resources to spend than the ordinary kashmiri. And the west wouldn't care either which way, stone throwing will be treated as a law and order problem to be dealt as such.

      In the long run, stone throwing never worked in Palestine and won't work in Kashmir either. The story of David killing Goliath with a stone makes a good read, but it isn't practical now.

  15. Supinder Singh says:

    Kashmir is aflame, a new generation of Kashmiri youth are willing (according to BBC reports) to die for Azadi Kashmir. The media have termed this uprising the Kasmiri 'intifada' – equating the situation with the Palestinain struggle.

    Manmohan Singh has given a televion broadcast appealing to the youth to ."..give peace a chance" and the porspect of giving Kashmir greater autonomy has been muted.

    The situtaion has been described as being '…as tense a scenaio for at elast 20 years".

    I wish the Kashmiri every luck for their "Azad"; unlike Punjab it seems as if there is real grass roots support of sucession. I hope the Indian security forces do not massacre a generation of Kasmiri youth males as had happened in the Punjab in the 80s and 90s.

  16. Supinder Singh says:

    Kashmir is aflame, a new generation of Kashmiri youth are willing (according to BBC reports) to die for Azadi Kashmir. The media have termed this uprising the Kasmiri 'intifada' – equating the situation with the Palestinain struggle.

    Manmohan Singh has given a televion broadcast appealing to the youth to ."..give peace a chance" and the porspect of giving Kashmir greater autonomy has been muted.

    The situtaion has been described as being '…as tense a scenaio for at elast 20 years".

    I wish the Kashmiri every luck for their "Azad"; unlike Punjab it seems as if there is real grass roots support of sucession. I hope the Indian security forces do not massacre a generation of Kasmiri youth males as had happened in the Punjab in the 80s and 90s.

  17. RajinderSinghVirk says:

    @Supinder,shame on you for advocating the iilegal and immoral activities,of criminals in the name of an abstract notion of azadi.The media in it's irresponsible behaviour is blowing things out of proportions,there is no grass roots movement,and any separatist movement will be put down.All great nation states have to go through this kind of abberations,USA had to go thru a civil war in order to keep its union together.Indian politicians/authorities should suck it up and stop being pussies,and do whatever needs to be done to keep indian union together.

    • Supinder Singh says:

      What a load of BS, what kind of tiranga tinged Kool Aid have you been sipping?

      I haven't been "…advocating the iilegal and immoral activities,of criminals" – READ my post instead of using your febrile imagination.

      Kashmiri youth are throwing stones against security forces whom they perceive as an occupying power. You need to read some history, it would take an ignoramous to see this conflict through the prism of the US civil war (that conflict was driven by socio-economic factors not religious identity politics).

      I do detect some momentum behind this Kashmiri 'intifada'; the quality broadsheets/commentators have picked this up..
      http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/13/world/asia/13ka
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/soutikbis

      • Bik says:

        Good postings Supinder Singh. If there was any justice, Rajinder Virk would be being prosecuted as he has already admitted to being a underling and chumcha of K P S Gill. No doubt he may escape justice in this world but in the court of Dharmraj there is no such excuse as 'I was following Sahib's orders'

        views too seriously. He was one of the murderers of the Sikh youth under

  18. RajinderSinghVirk says:

    @Supinder,shame on you for advocating the iilegal and immoral activities,of criminals in the name of an abstract notion of azadi.The media in it's irresponsible behaviour is blowing things out of proportions,there is no grass roots movement,and any separatist movement will be put down.All great nation states have to go through this kind of abberations,USA had to go thru a civil war in order to keep its union together.Indian politicians/authorities should suck it up and stop being pussies,and do whatever needs to be done to keep indian union together.

    • Supinder Singh says:

      What a load of BS, what kind of tiranga tinged Kool Aid have you been sipping?

      I haven't been "…advocating the iilegal and immoral activities,of criminals" – READ my post instead of using your febrile imagination.

      Kashmiri youth are throwing stones against security forces whom they perceive as an occupying power. You need to read some history, it would take an ignoramous to see this conflict through the prism of the US civil war (that conflict was driven by socio-economic factors not religious identity politics).

      I do detect some momentum behind this Kashmiri 'intifada'; the quality broadsheets/commentators have picked this up..
      http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/13/world/asia/13ka
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/soutikbis

      • Bik says:

        Good postings Supinder Singh. If there was any justice, Rajinder Virk would be being prosecuted as he has already admitted to being a underling and chumcha of K P S Gill. No doubt he may escape justice in this world but in the court of Dharmraj there is no such excuse as 'I was following Sahib's orders'

        views too seriously. He was one of the murderers of the Sikh youth under

  19. iSingh says:

    @Supinder

    Again you are the voice of sanity. Cheers.

    @RSV
    "and any separatist movement will be put down"
    Shame on you. By that logic, all the Commonwealth countries who fought for independence were 'criminals'? Btw US is a Federal system – something that should have been done for India weren't it for the power hungry – Nehru-Jinnah-et al going against the recommendations presented to them. But if this is due to your oath towards protecting sovereignty of Bharat Mata then I take words back.

    • RajinderSinghVirk says:

      @supinder,kasmiri youth r throwing stones coz they percieve they r under occupation.Ur right fella it is just a perception,not a reality,J&K acceded to the union,under the instrument of asscension,even then
      they have been given special status under article 370 of the constitution.@iSingh commonwealth countries fought against a colonial occupier,which collonial occupier r the kashmiris fighting against.Again the answer to supinder is the answer to your logic. As for federal system,u only give autonomy to individuals,states,nations who show some degree of responsibility,where is the responsibility in J&K situation.

      • H S says:

        @RSV: You speak nothing more than a rhetoric . The only examples you could give was vis-a-vis US civil war. Mr. old dude, there is a difference of land and sky between what's happening in Hindustan and what happened in US. Protests in Kashmir (or Punjab, or Assam etc) are just and just for the sole reason of right to self determination and to get back what they were promised during Independence of Hindustan. There is diversity in language, religion, culture etc in India, however there was no such diversity in US. So you are comparing an apple with a combination of wild fruits. Take a look at following articles, not you Mr. old dude Virk [ as I know there's no use of hitting my head on wall ;) ]:

        "http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/deannelson/100050312/the-world-wants-to-think-the-best-about-india-so-we-turn-our-back-on-kashmir/"
        "http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DqpK0fHUt2A0"

        As per Mr. old dude Virk, protesters are criminals and Indian security agents are not. Ok, decide for yourself if what you see in these pictures are criminals or oppressed women, children and men: "http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/india/2010/08/100805_kashmir_protest_women_pics.shtml"

        Hope whatever India has done with its minorities and whatever promises it has broken comes around to its majority people who are wanting the Hindu rule or greater Sanatan Dharma.

        • Sher says:

          Interesting comments Supinder singh and others supporting Kashmiri Azadi.

          I would like to pose some questions which I cannot find answers for:

          Does it really mean AZADI of the whole Shia Kashmiri 'nation' or merger with Sunni-dominated Pakistan?

          If former is the case, what is happening in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir? If Pakistan is that concerned with Kashmiri azadi, why not vacate POK and declare it an Independent country and ask other UN members to recognise it as an independent country.

          Once Pakistan 'liberates' Kashmir and India reciprocates, where Jammu and Ladakh regions would go?

          What happens to the minorities in Indian Kashmir (inc Sikhs)?

          What happens to the hundreds of thousands of Hindu Kashmiris who have been forced to leave their homes and valley?

          What happens to the vast Kashmiri lands gifted by lackey Pakistan to its master – China?

          i have many more such questions but the MOST IMPORTANT OF THEM ALL WOULD BE –

          WHAT HAPPENS TO THE INDUS WATER? As 'Azad' kashmir would mean total change of political geography and

          so many other questions fellas, give it a go.

          Sher

  20. iSingh says:

    @Supinder

    Again you are the voice of sanity. Cheers.

    @RSV
    "and any separatist movement will be put down"
    Shame on you. By that logic, all the Commonwealth countries who fought for independence were 'criminals'? Btw US is a Federal system – something that should have been done for India weren't it for the power hungry – Nehru-Jinnah-et al going against the recommendations presented to them. But if this is due to your oath towards protecting sovereignty of Bharat Mata then I take words back.

    • RajinderSinghVirk says:

      @supinder,kasmiri youth r throwing stones coz they percieve they r under occupation.Ur right fella it is just a perception,not a reality,J&K acceded to the union,under the instrument of asscension,even then
      they have been given special status under article 370 of the constitution.@iSingh commonwealth countries fought against a colonial occupier,which collonial occupier r the kashmiris fighting against.Again the answer to supinder is the answer to your logic. As for federal system,u only give autonomy to individuals,states,nations who show some degree of responsibility,where is the responsibility in J&K situation.

      • H S says:

        @RSV: You speak nothing more than a rhetoric . The only examples you could give was vis-a-vis US civil war. Mr. old dude, there is a difference of land and sky between what's happening in Hindustan and what happened in US. Protests in Kashmir (or Punjab, or Assam etc) are just and just for the sole reason of right to self determination and to get back what they were promised during Independence of Hindustan. There is diversity in language, religion, culture etc in India, however there was no such diversity in US. So you are comparing an apple with a combination of wild fruits. Take a look at following articles, not you Mr. old dude Virk [ as I know there's no use of hitting my head on wall ;) ]:

        "http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/deannelson/100050312/the-world-wants-to-think-the-best-about-india-so-we-turn-our-back-on-kashmir/"
        "http://www.youtube.com/verify_age?next_url=http%3A//www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DqpK0fHUt2A0"

        As per Mr. old dude Virk, protesters are criminals and Indian security agents are not. Ok, decide for yourself if what you see in these pictures are criminals or oppressed women, children and men: "http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/india/2010/08/100805_kashmir_protest_women_pics.shtml"

        Hope whatever India has done with its minorities and whatever promises it has broken comes around to its majority people who are wanting the Hindu rule or greater Sanatan Dharma.

        • Sher says:

          Interesting comments Supinder singh and others supporting Kashmiri Azadi.

          I would like to pose some questions which I cannot find answers for:

          Does it really mean AZADI of the whole Shia Kashmiri 'nation' or merger with Sunni-dominated Pakistan?

          If former is the case, what is happening in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir? If Pakistan is that concerned with Kashmiri azadi, why not vacate POK and declare it an Independent country and ask other UN members to recognise it as an independent country.

          Once Pakistan 'liberates' Kashmir and India reciprocates, where Jammu and Ladakh regions would go?

          What happens to the minorities in Indian Kashmir (inc Sikhs)?

          What happens to the hundreds of thousands of Hindu Kashmiris who have been forced to leave their homes and valley?

          What happens to the vast Kashmiri lands gifted by lackey Pakistan to its master – China?

          i have many more such questions but the MOST IMPORTANT OF THEM ALL WOULD BE –

          WHAT HAPPENS TO THE INDUS WATER? As 'Azad' kashmir would mean total change of political geography and

          so many other questions fellas, give it a go.

          Sher

  21. Sher says:

    "I wish the Kashmiri every luck for their "Azad"; unlike Punjab it seems as if there is real grass roots support of sucession"

    Supinder while your only objective in supporting Kashmiri 'Azadi' (?) is to hurt the union of India, do you also realise the merger of Kashmir with Pakistan (as proposed by Huriyat Conference) would mean our beloved Punjab encircled from two sides by forces hostile to Sikhi?

    Also, your support for the noble notion of azadi only restricted to movements in India only or areas under pakistan control are also inclluded – balochistan, Pashtunistan, Sidhistan, PoK, Swat, etc to name a few.

    Also since you are an adherent supporter of (i assume here, could be wrong) sikhs being a separate faith from Hinduism; do you also support the growing movement by ravidassias to have a new faith of their own and remove Guru Granth sahib from Ravidass temples?

    Sher

    • H S says:

      @Sher: Unsolicited comment, but answering to make a point as "adherent supporter of sikhs being a separate faith from Hinduism"

      "do you also support the growing movement by ravidassias to have a new faith of their own and remove Guru Granth sahib from Ravidass temples?" ——> YES!!!!

      Even if our religion means going down to an iota of population, I won't mind until everyone follows true Sikhi and cares for the uplifment of Panth without associating himself/herself with other faiths, however that doesn't mean disprespecting other faiths.

      • Sher says:

        H S You are answering for 'Supinder' for some strange reasons or is that another of your aliases?

        Even if our religion means going down to an iota of population, I won't mind until everyone follows true Sikhi …

        means you are for exclusion of vast majority of Sikhs from Sikhi unless they subscribe to your contrived version of Sikhi!!???

        That thinking runs contrary to what Gurus have written in the G Granth sahib and also to 'inclusive' philosophy around which Sikh/Nanakpanthi faith has evolved so far. and what would be YOUR version of Sikhi look like Supinder…H S or whosoever you are?

        Sher

        • RajinderSinghVirk says:

          @sher these bloggers whether they r sikhs or not one thing is for sure,they r bunch of intolerant people,who have a very narrow vision of religious exclusivity.They cannot see beyond the distorted versions of their beliefs.In the past these views when acted upon caused numerous casualities,and thats what they want now.

        • H S says:

          @ Sher and RSV: I stand for what Sikhi stands for – no Jatt, Bhappa, Tarkhan or Chamar. If someone calls himself/herself Sikh by believing ONLY in Guru Granth Sahib and sheds the division on lines of Jatt, Bhappa, Chamar etc, then that's my point of TRUE SIKHI.

          P.S: @ Sher: BTW, I am man enough to write comments with my genuine initials H S of my name Harpreet Singh. I have never used, and would never, any other psuedonym unlike scores of other Hindus coming to this site by hiding under Sikh sounding name or changing name here and there. So, this is just for your help to avoid your crying mad every here and there whenver you see any comment against your opinion with a different name than H S, and your one track mind having nothing else to say than but to assume me for every other name. Grow up.

    • Supinder Singh says:

      What a buffoon; one would think (perhaps optimistically) that a poster would have mastered reading comprehensive before writing off a post…or perhaps this 'sher' (how pretentious – HA HA) needs spectacles.

      A diatribe of logical fallacy is what you offer; i've lost count of the amount of straw men you use in your 'arguement'.

      "Supinder while your only objective in supporting Kashmiri 'Azadi' (?) is to hurt the union of India"

      Really! Its so pleasing to have my motivations clarified in this way. There i was ruminating on the fates of subjecated peoples and wondering what philosophy/course of action the Gurus might of epoused for the Kashmiris when really I was trying to "…hurt the union of India". Wah Wah what Clairevoyency; punditdum must be proud.

      What babble "Also, your support for the noble notion of azadi only restricted to movements in India only or areas under pakistan control are also inclluded – balochistan, Pashtunistan, Sidhistan, PoK, Swat, etc to name a few." You moron, the article was about Kashmir; that why my comment was about Kashmir; if the article was is support of Scottish, Kosovoan, Welsh, Baloch, Moaist etc. succession than i would comment (no doubt favourably) on those movements aswell.

      WTF has "…do you also support the growing movement by ravidassias to have a new faith of their own and remove Guru Granth sahib from Ravidass temples?" this to do with Kashmir?

      • Sher says:

        "You moron, the article was about Kashmir; that why my comment was about Kashmir"
        then why have you failed to answer my questions about Kashmir Supinder? resisting this urge to ask you who is the "moron" here and give you few of befitting honorifics myself.

        Ok, give you another chance to answer my Kashmir specific questions:

        Does it really mean AZADI of the whole Shia Kashmiri 'nation' or merger with Sunni-dominated Pakistan?

        If former is the case, what is happening in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir? If Pakistan is that concerned with Kashmiri azadi, why not vacate POK and declare it an Independent country and ask other UN members to recognise it as an independent country.

        Once Pakistan 'liberates' Kashmir and India reciprocates, where Jammu and Ladakh regions would go?

        What happens to the minorities in Indian Kashmir (inc Sikhs)?

        What happens to the hundreds of thousands of Hindu Kashmiris who have been forced to leave their homes and valley?

        What happens to the vast Kashmiri lands gifted by lackey Pakistan to its master – China?

        i have many more such questions but the MOST IMPORTANT OF THEM ALL WOULD BE –

        WHAT HAPPENS TO THE INDUS WATER? As 'Azad' kashmir would mean total change of political geography. The ITW would stand abrogated in this scenario.

        Sher

        • Sher says:

          wassup supppinder?

          where is that acerbic pen supinder gone? maybe he does not spew vitriolic in Ramadan month ;)

          ..or may be he does not have any answers to my Kashmir queries. yes, may be.

          btw is this 'Sup' in your name the same as 'snake' in punjabi? just curious, do not get me wrong.

          Sher

          • iSingh says:

            @Sher

            My take on your questions

            "Azadi for whole Shia Kashmiri… Pakistan"
            - Irrelevant question. Akin to British asking Indian states at the time of independence – Azadi for whole nation or merger with Hindu dominated India / Pakistan. I totally can believe that many Kashmiris wanted to align with Pakistan at the time of independence but couldn't because the Hindu Dogra acceded with India. I also totally believe that till 1970s average Kashmiri was happy taking tourists around Dal lake and getting pictures clicked with Bollywood actors at Gulmarg. The politicization and accompanied human rights abuses started changing their perception is factual and historical trend as elsewhere in India and outside.

            "If Pakistan is that concerned…."
            - Pakistani is not concerned with Kashmir azadi. They can't handle what they already have. Just like Indira Gandhi used Punjab, Bush used Iraq/Afghanistan, Badal used Sacha Sauda, Pakistan's leaders have used Kashmir to turn the voters attention away from hunger, corruption and inequality.

            "Where Jammu and Ladakh will go"
            - Hypothetically, LOC can be extended to Srinagar-Jammu highway and Ladakh has a link with India so that can remain. China already occupies large enough portion of Aksai-Chin (I think). I don't know why people are not concerned about that.

            "What happens to minorities in Indian Kashmir/ thousands of Hindu Kashmiris who have been forced…."
            - Haha – you are funny. What happened to Hindus who left Punjab, Sikhs who left Bangalore/Delhi, Muslims who left India and Sikhs who left Punjab, Christians who left Orissa.

            "What happens to Indus Water"
            - The only relevant question you have raised. I am not sure about the exact contribution by Indus head, Jhelum and Chenab in different areas but it Water has been the cause of many conflicts and will increasingly be.

          • H S says:

            Sher you are here to just spew your venom of dis-integrity among Sikhs and Indian minorities at large. Get this straight that people like you, who deliberately mar other minorities' effort for cohesiveness through forums like these, are the ones who create bad name for Hindus. Its a fact that you are out on your mission of Hindu Nationalism to target and hit anyone who goes against your Nationalism.

            Your rabid opinions and way of discussing is so immature and 'Hindu' (read 'low life') that you jump to the bandwagon of marking other person as Muslim if he goes against your opinions. And Muslims to you is synonymous with extreme hated persons.

            Consider humanity as one. You Hindus are already above 1 billion and still you people have such frantic insecurity of Hindu Nationalism that you are willing to go to minorities' websites and targeting people who are not even 2% of your population. My comment was not to target you, but just to show what you've been upto if you don't have shame to introspect and realize through your own self.

  22. Sher says:

    "I wish the Kashmiri every luck for their "Azad"; unlike Punjab it seems as if there is real grass roots support of sucession"

    Supinder while your only objective in supporting Kashmiri 'Azadi' (?) is to hurt the union of India, do you also realise the merger of Kashmir with Pakistan (as proposed by Huriyat Conference) would mean our beloved Punjab encircled from two sides by forces hostile to Sikhi?

    Also, your support for the noble notion of azadi only restricted to movements in India only or areas under pakistan control are also inclluded – balochistan, Pashtunistan, Sidhistan, PoK, Swat, etc to name a few.

    Also since you are an adherent supporter of (i assume here, could be wrong) sikhs being a separate faith from Hinduism; do you also support the growing movement by ravidassias to have a new faith of their own and remove Guru Granth sahib from Ravidass temples?

    Sher

    • H S says:

      @Sher: Unsolicited comment, but answering to make a point as "adherent supporter of sikhs being a separate faith from Hinduism"

      "do you also support the growing movement by ravidassias to have a new faith of their own and remove Guru Granth sahib from Ravidass temples?" ——> YES!!!!

      Even if our religion means going down to an iota of population, I won't mind until everyone follows true Sikhi and cares for the uplifment of Panth without associating himself/herself with other faiths, however that doesn't mean disprespecting other faiths.

      • Sher says:

        H S You are answering for 'Supinder' for some strange reasons or is that another of your aliases?

        Even if our religion means going down to an iota of population, I won't mind until everyone follows true Sikhi …

        means you are for exclusion of vast majority of Sikhs from Sikhi unless they subscribe to your contrived version of Sikhi!!???

        That thinking runs contrary to what Gurus have written in the G Granth sahib and also to 'inclusive' philosophy around which Sikh/Nanakpanthi faith has evolved so far. and what would be YOUR version of Sikhi look like Supinder…H S or whosoever you are?

        Sher

        • RajinderSinghVirk says:

          @sher these bloggers whether they r sikhs or not one thing is for sure,they r bunch of intolerant people,who have a very narrow vision of religious exclusivity.They cannot see beyond the distorted versions of their beliefs.In the past these views when acted upon caused numerous casualities,and thats what they want now.

        • H S says:

          @ Sher and RSV: I stand for what Sikhi stands for – no Jatt, Bhappa, Tarkhan or Chamar. If someone calls himself/herself Sikh by believing ONLY in Guru Granth Sahib and sheds the division on lines of Jatt, Bhappa, Chamar etc, then that's my point of TRUE SIKHI.

          P.S: @ Sher: BTW, I am man enough to write comments with my genuine initials H S of my name Harpreet Singh. I have never used, and would never, any other psuedonym unlike scores of other Hindus coming to this site by hiding under Sikh sounding name or changing name here and there. So, this is just for your help to avoid your crying mad every here and there whenver you see any comment against your opinion with a different name than H S, and your one track mind having nothing else to say than but to assume me for every other name. Grow up.

    • Supinder Singh says:

      What a buffoon; one would think (perhaps optimistically) that a poster would have mastered reading comprehensive before writing off a post…or perhaps this 'sher' (how pretentious – HA HA) needs spectacles.

      A diatribe of logical fallacy is what you offer; i've lost count of the amount of straw men you use in your 'arguement'.

      "Supinder while your only objective in supporting Kashmiri 'Azadi' (?) is to hurt the union of India"

      Really! Its so pleasing to have my motivations clarified in this way. There i was ruminating on the fates of subjecated peoples and wondering what philosophy/course of action the Gurus might of epoused for the Kashmiris when really I was trying to "…hurt the union of India". Wah Wah what Clairevoyency; punditdum must be proud.

      What babble "Also, your support for the noble notion of azadi only restricted to movements in India only or areas under pakistan control are also inclluded – balochistan, Pashtunistan, Sidhistan, PoK, Swat, etc to name a few." You moron, the article was about Kashmir; that why my comment was about Kashmir; if the article was is support of Scottish, Kosovoan, Welsh, Baloch, Moaist etc. succession than i would comment (no doubt favourably) on those movements aswell.

      WTF has "…do you also support the growing movement by ravidassias to have a new faith of their own and remove Guru Granth sahib from Ravidass temples?" this to do with Kashmir?

      • Sher says:

        "You moron, the article was about Kashmir; that why my comment was about Kashmir"
        then why have you failed to answer my questions about Kashmir Supinder? resisting this urge to ask you who is the "moron" here and give you few of befitting honorifics myself.

        Ok, give you another chance to answer my Kashmir specific questions:

        Does it really mean AZADI of the whole Shia Kashmiri 'nation' or merger with Sunni-dominated Pakistan?

        If former is the case, what is happening in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir? If Pakistan is that concerned with Kashmiri azadi, why not vacate POK and declare it an Independent country and ask other UN members to recognise it as an independent country.

        Once Pakistan 'liberates' Kashmir and India reciprocates, where Jammu and Ladakh regions would go?

        What happens to the minorities in Indian Kashmir (inc Sikhs)?

        What happens to the hundreds of thousands of Hindu Kashmiris who have been forced to leave their homes and valley?

        What happens to the vast Kashmiri lands gifted by lackey Pakistan to its master – China?

        i have many more such questions but the MOST IMPORTANT OF THEM ALL WOULD BE –

        WHAT HAPPENS TO THE INDUS WATER? As 'Azad' kashmir would mean total change of political geography. The ITW would stand abrogated in this scenario.

        Sher

        • Sher says:

          wassup supppinder?

          where is that acerbic pen supinder gone? maybe he does not spew vitriolic in Ramadan month ;)

          ..or may be he does not have any answers to my Kashmir queries. yes, may be.

          btw is this ‘Sup’ in your name the same as ‘snake’ in punjabi? just curious, do not get me wrong.

          Sher

          • iSingh says:

            @Sher

            My take on your questions

            "Azadi for whole Shia Kashmiri… Pakistan"
            - Irrelevant question. Akin to British asking Indian states at the time of independence – Azadi for whole nation or merger with Hindu dominated India / Pakistan. I totally can believe that many Kashmiris wanted to align with Pakistan at the time of independence but couldn't because the Hindu Dogra acceded with India. I also totally believe that till 1970s average Kashmiri was happy taking tourists around Dal lake and getting pictures clicked with Bollywood actors at Gulmarg. The politicization and accompanied human rights abuses started changing their perception is factual and historical trend as elsewhere in India and outside.

            "If Pakistan is that concerned…."
            - Pakistani is not concerned with Kashmir azadi. They can't handle what they already have. Just like Indira Gandhi used Punjab, Bush used Iraq/Afghanistan, Badal used Sacha Sauda, Pakistan's leaders have used Kashmir to turn the voters attention away from hunger, corruption and inequality.

            "Where Jammu and Ladakh will go"
            - Hypothetically, LOC can be extended to Srinagar-Jammu highway and Ladakh has a link with India so that can remain. China already occupies large enough portion of Aksai-Chin (I think). I don't know why people are not concerned about that.

            "What happens to minorities in Indian Kashmir/ thousands of Hindu Kashmiris who have been forced…."
            - Haha – you are funny. What happened to Hindus who left Punjab, Sikhs who left Bangalore/Delhi, Muslims who left India and Sikhs who left Punjab, Christians who left Orissa.

            "What happens to Indus Water"
            - The only relevant question you have raised. I am not sure about the exact contribution by Indus head, Jhelum and Chenab in different areas but it Water has been the cause of many conflicts and will increasingly be.

          • H S says:

            Sher you are here to just spew your venom of dis-integrity among Sikhs and Indian minorities at large. Get this straight that people like you, who deliberately mar other minorities' effort for cohesiveness through forums like these, are the ones who create bad name for Hindus. Its a fact that you are out on your mission of Hindu Nationalism to target and hit anyone who goes against your Nationalism.

            Your rabid opinions and way of discussing is so immature and 'Hindu' (read 'low life') that you jump to the bandwagon of marking other person as Muslim if he goes against your opinions. And Muslims to you is synonymous with extreme hated persons.

            Consider humanity as one. You Hindus are already above 1 billion and still you people have such frantic insecurity of Hindu Nationalism that you are willing to go to minorities' websites and targeting people who are not even 2% of your population. My comment was not to target you, but just to show what you've been upto if you don't have shame to introspect and realize through your own self.

  23. Supinder Singh says:

    idiot

    Sup means "Pearl"; Sup – inder means lord of pearls.

  24. Supinder Singh says:

    For the rest of your 'questions' – they are so tedious and be better answered if you engage in other message-boards on the topic of Kashmir…but that's not your MO is it – you're here to antagonise Sikhs. 'Sir' …you are a maggot.

    The one part of your 'question' which is the most idiotic…is the one regarding water…any cursory look at the geography of the area renders this 'question' useless. The waters of the Indus and of the 'Punjab' are ultimately derived from the Tibeten Plateau which is controlled by China; no water is orignally derived from Kashmir other than the meltwater produced by the Siachen Glacier.

    How tedious you are; go replenise your spite with a glass of bovine urine you moron.

    • Sher says:

      Oye Suppa dhyana naal. it is not only you who can use such insults as maggot, moron, idiot, …bovine urine.

      get over your 'poisonous' attitude.

      for some reasons, TLH is not monitoring your posts for such personal attacks.

      Sher

  25. Supinder Singh says:

    idiot

    Sup means "Pearl"; Sup – inder means lord of pearls.

  26. Supinder Singh says:

    For the rest of your 'questions' – they are so tedious and be better answered if you engage in other message-boards on the topic of Kashmir…but that's not your MO is it – you're here to antagonise Sikhs. 'Sir' …you are a maggot.

    The one part of your 'question' which is the most idiotic…is the one regarding water…any cursory look at the geography of the area renders this 'question' useless. The waters of the Indus and of the 'Punjab' are ultimately derived from the Tibeten Plateau which is controlled by China; no water is orignally derived from Kashmir other than the meltwater produced by the Siachen Glacier.

    How tedious you are; go replenise your spite with a glass of bovine urine you moron.

    • Sher says:

      Oye Suppa dhyana naal. it is not only you who can use such insults as maggot, moron, idiot, …bovine urine.

      get over your 'poisonous' attitude.

      for some reasons, TLH is not monitoring your posts for such personal attacks.

      Sher

  27. Inderjit says:

    SSA

    The prefix 'Sup' means pearls, associated with wisdom and/or beauty.

    'Sapp' means snake. Sikhs do not name themselves (or worship) after snakes.

    As Sikhs the GGS gives us our names and we should all work hard to live up to them.

    WJKK WJKF

    • Sher says:

      Inderjit, Almost 99% of the names of sikhs are the same as in Hindus.

      Just change the second name 'singh' with some 'hindu' second name and it would be fine. In some cases, even the second name is the same. Charan singh, hari Singh, jagdish singh could be either. And too many "inders" in sikhs anyway. By GGS you mean Guru Granth sahib or G Gobind Singh? BTW, Waheguru is not mentioned anywhere in Granth sahib.

      Sher

  28. Inderjit says:

    SSA

    The prefix ‘Sup’ means pearls, associated with wisdom and/or beauty.

    ‘Sapp’ means snake. Sikhs do not name themselves (or worship) after snakes.

    As Sikhs the GGS gives us our names and we should all work hard to live up to them.

    WJKK WJKF

    • Sher says:

      Inderjit, Almost 99% of the names of sikhs are the same as in Hindus.

      Just change the second name 'singh' with some 'hindu' second name and it would be fine. In some cases, even the second name is the same. Charan singh, hari Singh, jagdish singh could be either. And too many "inders" in sikhs anyway. By GGS you mean Guru Granth sahib or G Gobind Singh? BTW, Waheguru is not mentioned anywhere in Granth sahib.

      Sher

  29. Sher says:

    Jodha,

    I admit I may have been wrong. to err is human…

    But my GGS search engine still not showing any results for this term 'waheguru'
    http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?…

    Sher

  30. Sher says:

    Wiki tells us:'

    "In Sikh scripture, the Guru Granth Sahib, the term does not figure in the compositions of the Gurus, though it occurs therein, both as Vahiguru and Vahguru, in the hymns of Bhatt Gayand, the bard contemporary with Guru Arjan, Nanak V (1553-1606), and also in the Varan of Bhai Gurdas.

    "Waheguru", and its variant "Wahguru", appear only 18 times in Shri Guru Granth Sahib. Wahguru occurs twice on Ang 1403 and once on Ang 1404"

    The word 'Hari' appears 8344 times (!!!!) in GGS, '

    The word 'Ram' on the other mentioned some 2533 times.

    'Mohammad' does find mention in GGS at all while Allah ……

    Waheguru 18 times and of these nine times on just one page. am I correct?

    Sher

  31. Sher says:

    Jodha,

    I admit I may have been wrong. to err is human…

    But my GGS search engine still not showing any results for this term 'waheguru'
    http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?…

    Sher

  32. Sher says:

    Wiki tells us:'

    "In Sikh scripture, the Guru Granth Sahib, the term does not figure in the compositions of the Gurus, though it occurs therein, both as Vahiguru and Vahguru, in the hymns of Bhatt Gayand, the bard contemporary with Guru Arjan, Nanak V (1553-1606), and also in the Varan of Bhai Gurdas.

    "Waheguru", and its variant "Wahguru", appear only 18 times in Shri Guru Granth Sahib. Wahguru occurs twice on Ang 1403 and once on Ang 1404"

    The word 'Hari' appears 8344 times (!!!!) in GGS, '

    The word 'Ram' on the other mentioned some 2533 times.

    'Mohammad' does find mention in GGS at all while Allah ……

    Waheguru 18 times and of these nine times on just one page. am I correct?

    Sher

  33. Secular Indian says:

    fact is, india will never give up kashmir.in fact no country will give up its land so easily. and it is also true that independence for kashmir is not viable. what would the map look like? would only indian kashmir get azaadi, or pok as well? pak will never give up pok (because then they would have no border with china).

    in india, jammu and ladakh would prefer to remain with india, so only the valley would secede. Would a small valley of 4 million people, surrounded by 3 nuclear armed countries be prosperous? a small country surrounded by 3 larger, more powerful countries, would become more like afghanistan, (i.e. run over by foreign troops for their own political agendas).

    kashmiris only have two choices: go with india. or go with pakistan. to see which is better for you, just compare IJK and POK. Even after all these human rights violations that occur in Indian side (which must be condemned), IJK is still much more prosperous than POK. And how many of you know that there is a secession movement in POK who want independence from Pakistan? That news just gets suppressed.

    Recent polls in Kashmir show that 60% of people want independence from both India and Pak. 20% want to be with India. 10% want to be with Pakistan. Remaining 10% believe none of the above is a viable solution.

    So status quo seems to be the only option. Now what needs to be done immediately is, we must find better ways to deal with protests. Protests will happen, you cannot suppress them. They happen everywhere in the world. We must ensure that no innocent lives are lost! We can try to disperse them in other non-lethal methods. We must look into that a.s.a.p.

    And we must start a political reconciliation process with Kashmiris. If autonomy within the Indian constitution is the answer, then so be it. Then we need to bring more investment into Kashmir. And we need to reduce the presence of Indian army in Kashmir. For THIS to happen we need to start talks with Pakistan and build trust between the two countries, and work towards a solution to the Kashmir dispute (i.e. both countries accepting status quo).

  34. H S says:

    Sher, unlike you people here are not a full time employee hired by RSS to distort and intentionally try and concoct the Sikh history. Your bloody RSS [Radical Satanic Sangh] came up with an article written by a brahmin ( one Tiwari) calling Harmandar Sahib as Shiva's abode and advicing Jathedars to wear dhoti instead of kurta pyjama. Your religion only knows how to create myths and then project that myth as the only genuine history on earth. Before trying to concoct Sikh history with your BS, first try to resolve your own religion's maze (or a myth?). There are loads and loads of contradiction within Hinduism, if you like to call that a religion at first place. When you Hindus are not able to answer some question when it targets the authenticity of your so called religion, then you resort to cheap tactic of calling names as here in this article: "http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/hindu/TTF4DU99P2NODJOPF"

    Try clearing the maze or myth that is Hinduism first, then question others' religion you:

    "http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/a_hindu_woman/answertohindu.html"

    "http://slumz.boxden.com/f175/flaws-hindu-scriptures-601994/"

  35. H S says:

    Sher aka RSS Sanghi here are some points for you:

    1. In Purush Sukta of Rigveda (10/90/1) God is described as having thousands of heads, eyes and feet.

    2. Hiranayagarbh Sukta of Rigveda says that in the beginning of the universe there was only Hiranyagarbh (the Almighty God). He was the Lord of all beings. He set earth and the sky at their present places (Rigved, 10/121/1). God blessed the beings with strength. All the deities obey His commands. Even death is under His command. He is the Lord of all beings and animals. This Rigveda also stresses God’s Attributes such as Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent and the Master of Salvation.

    3. Swetambar Upanishad (618) sheds some light on the body-figures of God. “He has no body, no soul, no senses. Nobody is even equal to him.” “He is the Almighty God. He is the protector of the whole creation. He is exempt from hunger, thirst, grief and death.”

    When the Hindu scriptures say that God is one and exempt from birth and death, then the question arises why is He defined as having a body. Is it not contradictory?

    The Rigveda also suggests that “Prajapati” is the Almighty God of Hindus. But Atharvaveda (7/3/26/1) says, “Vishnu created earth, heaven and space.” In the Mandukya Upanishad (6) Brahma is described as the creator of earth, heaven and space. What a contradiction!

    The study of Rigveda, Athravaveda and various Upanishads suggests that Brahma and Vishnu are described as two almighty gods. But the great surprise is that these scriptures describe god as exempt from birth in one place, while in the other they describe him tied to wordly bonds.

    4. According to Shiv Mahapuram (6/1/19), Brahma and Vishnu used to fight to prove their respective superiority. Brahma says that he created Vishnu, but Vishnu says that he created “Lotus” from his navel which in turn gave birth to Brahma.This conflict turned to a terrible battle between them.

    Besides Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, thirty-three gods are also described in the Vedas. Today their number has reached thirty-three crore (330,000,000). This means that every third person of India has his own god!

  36. H S says:

    Sher aka RSS Sanghi I could go on and on to counter your BS, but alas I am not a hired RSS zealot to concoct history of other religion to try and prove so called religion (or myth?) Hinduism as superior. In short I don't poke my nose intentionally to create problems for my own fundamental questions as you are doing. Your one question raises a mountain of questions for your so called religion 'Hinduism', however in spite of knowing that you are one shameless creature with no dignity and self respect.

  37. Secular Indian says:

    fact is, india will never give up kashmir.in fact no country will give up its land so easily. and it is also true that independence for kashmir is not viable. what would the map look like? would only indian kashmir get azaadi, or pok as well? pak will never give up pok (because then they would have no border with china).

    in india, jammu and ladakh would prefer to remain with india, so only the valley would secede. Would a small valley of 4 million people, surrounded by 3 nuclear armed countries be prosperous? a small country surrounded by 3 larger, more powerful countries, would become more like afghanistan, (i.e. run over by foreign troops for their own political agendas).

    kashmiris only have two choices: go with india. or go with pakistan. to see which is better for you, just compare IJK and POK. Even after all these human rights violations that occur in Indian side (which must be condemned), IJK is still much more prosperous than POK. And how many of you know that there is a secession movement in POK who want independence from Pakistan? That news just gets suppressed.

    Recent polls in Kashmir show that 60% of people want independence from both India and Pak. 20% want to be with India. 10% want to be with Pakistan. Remaining 10% believe none of the above is a viable solution.

    So status quo seems to be the only option. Now what needs to be done immediately is, we must find better ways to deal with protests. Protests will happen, you cannot suppress them. They happen everywhere in the world. We must ensure that no innocent lives are lost! We can try to disperse them in other non-lethal methods. We must look into that a.s.a.p.

    And we must start a political reconciliation process with Kashmiris. If autonomy within the Indian constitution is the answer, then so be it. Then we need to bring more investment into Kashmir. And we need to reduce the presence of Indian army in Kashmir. For THIS to happen we need to start talks with Pakistan and build trust between the two countries, and work towards a solution to the Kashmir dispute (i.e. both countries accepting status quo).

  38. H S says:

    Sher, unlike you people here are not a full time employee hired by RSS to distort and intentionally try and concoct the Sikh history. Your bloody RSS [Radical Satanic Sangh] came up with an article written by a brahmin ( one Tiwari) calling Harmandar Sahib as Shiva's abode and advicing Jathedars to wear dhoti instead of kurta pyjama. Your religion only knows how to create myths and then project that myth as the only genuine history on earth. Before trying to concoct Sikh history with your BS, first try to resolve your own religion's maze (or a myth?). There are loads and loads of contradiction within Hinduism, if you like to call that a religion at first place. When you Hindus are not able to answer some question when it targets the authenticity of your so called religion, then you resort to cheap tactic of calling names as here in this article: "http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/hindu/TTF4DU99P2NODJOPF"

    Try clearing the maze or myth that is Hinduism first, then question others' religion you:

    "http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/a_hindu_woman/answertohindu.html"

    "http://slumz.boxden.com/f175/flaws-hindu-scriptures-601994/"

  39. H S says:

    Sher aka RSS Sanghi here are some points for you:

    1. In Purush Sukta of Rigveda (10/90/1) God is described as having thousands of heads, eyes and feet.

    2. Hiranayagarbh Sukta of Rigveda says that in the beginning of the universe there was only Hiranyagarbh (the Almighty God). He was the Lord of all beings. He set earth and the sky at their present places (Rigved, 10/121/1). God blessed the beings with strength. All the deities obey His commands. Even death is under His command. He is the Lord of all beings and animals. This Rigveda also stresses God’s Attributes such as Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent and the Master of Salvation.

    3. Swetambar Upanishad (618) sheds some light on the body-figures of God. “He has no body, no soul, no senses. Nobody is even equal to him.” “He is the Almighty God. He is the protector of the whole creation. He is exempt from hunger, thirst, grief and death.”

    When the Hindu scriptures say that God is one and exempt from birth and death, then the question arises why is He defined as having a body. Is it not contradictory?

    The Rigveda also suggests that “Prajapati” is the Almighty God of Hindus. But Atharvaveda (7/3/26/1) says, “Vishnu created earth, heaven and space.” In the Mandukya Upanishad (6) Brahma is described as the creator of earth, heaven and space. What a contradiction!

    The study of Rigveda, Athravaveda and various Upanishads suggests that Brahma and Vishnu are described as two almighty gods. But the great surprise is that these scriptures describe god as exempt from birth in one place, while in the other they describe him tied to wordly bonds.

    4. According to Shiv Mahapuram (6/1/19), Brahma and Vishnu used to fight to prove their respective superiority. Brahma says that he created Vishnu, but Vishnu says that he created “Lotus” from his navel which in turn gave birth to Brahma.This conflict turned to a terrible battle between them.

    Besides Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, thirty-three gods are also described in the Vedas. Today their number has reached thirty-three crore (330,000,000). This means that every third person of India has his own god!

  40. H S says:

    Sher aka RSS Sanghi I could go on and on to counter your BS, but alas I am not a hired RSS zealot to concoct history of other religion to try and prove so called religion (or myth?) Hinduism as superior. In short I don't poke my nose intentionally to create problems for my own fundamental questions as you are doing. Your one question raises a mountain of questions for your so called religion 'Hinduism', however in spite of knowing that you are one shameless creature with no dignity and self respect.

  41. Grewal says:

    3 cheers for Azad Kashmir, Khalistan and Gorkhaland….though we know we are not gonna get them anyways

  42. Grewal says:

    3 cheers for Azad Kashmir, Khalistan and Gorkhaland….though we know we are not gonna get them anyways

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