Professor Babbu Mann on Lala Rajpat Rai

Gone are the days of great public intellectuals in the Punjabi tradition. Whither is our Sirdar Kapur Singh to give intellectual insights, analysis, and voice to the problems of Punjab?

In contemporary Punjab, when crooks rule the halls of power in Chandigarh or even the SGPC offices in Amritsar have become the dens of thieves, we turn to another. For many in Punjab, that has become Babbu Mann.

It was Babbu Mann that caused a storm by telling the truth by merely stating that – while there was one Baba Nanak that on foot became the talk of the world, today’s so-called Babay drive around in fancy cars with red lights attached to the top (as VIPs).

Here at a recent concert at Wembley Stadium, Professor Babbu Mann corrects one of the Indian nationalists’ lies – that of Lala Lajpat Rai.

Lala Lajpat Rai is usually remembered as a ‘freedom fighter’ during struggle against British colonialism. Websites usually laud him in the following way:

In 1928, British Government decided to send Simon Commission to India to discuss constitutional reforms. The Commission had no Indian member. This greatly angered Indians. In 1929, when the Commisssion came to India there were protests all over India. Lala Lajpat Rai himself led one such procession against Simon Commission. While the procession was peaceful, British Government brutally lathicharged the procession. Lala Lajpat Rai received severe head injuries and died on November17, 1928 [link]

As Professor Mann suggests, read your history and learn how this so-called great “hero” died of a heart attack later and was hardly the martyr of Indian legend.

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For the video of ‘Ik Baba Nanak Si’ mentioned earlier in the article, click fold and watch below.

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The truth-teller, despite whatever his own short-comings, gained the praise of the people of Punjab and the disdain of a number of hypocrites.


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164 Responses to “Professor Babbu Mann on Lala Rajpat Rai”

  1. randep says:

    This tells us a lot about your intellectual predispositions Jodha. Thanks.

  2. Jodha says:

    Anytime, haha. I already know yours!

  3. randep says:

    This tells us a lot about your intellectual predispositions Jodha. Thanks.

  4. Jodha says:

    Anytime, haha. I already know yours!

  5. Rajinder Singh Virk says:

    According to records the train carrying the members never arrived on the platform of lahore rly station.Instead the train was stopped about 2/2.5 miles outside the station and members of the simon commission were taken to govt.rest house by cars.There was no lathicharge all that happened was,capt.Scott the top cop was waving his cane and telling people to disperse as there were no members of simon commission.As he was waving the tip of his cane touched the pointed tip of lalaji's open umbrella thats all that happened.Lalaji was a cardiac patient long before this incident.At his funeral,being exorted by sarla devi from calcutta bhagat singh and his companians vowed revenge,and in the process killed lt.Sanders and hc. Channan singh and the rest is history.

    • Sher says:

      Virk saab find similar fictitious records or Mati Das and Sati Das too, also for Haqiqat Rai, Madan Lal Dhingra and that stupid fellow Sukhdev Thapar too. These people had no right to sacrifice their lives for their dharma and for their nation. They should have known that ONLY Jat's sacrifice is recognised in modern day Punjab. I am pretty sure most of the readers would not have even heard these names before. Madan Lal dhingra killed a gora officer in London for which he was hanged just like (and much before) Udham Singh. Sukhdev was hanged along with Bhagat Singh and another of idiots Rajguru. Mati das, Sati das, Haqiqat Rai… forget them, wait for Babbu Mann's highly-informed lampoons about these 'accidental' shaheeds.

      • Rajinder Singh Virk says:

        I dont know what u r talking about,but the incident was witnessed by my father there was no lathi charge on that day at lahore rlwy station.Lala Lajpat Rai with all his good/bad points was a cardiac patient and died of a heart attack,any one can check the medical records/files.As for fictitious records I dont have to do it,being born in 1929 I have seen enough history being made to last me a life time.As for rest of the letter I think you have lampooned yourself.

        • Sher says:

          Just google “lala llajpat rai injured” and every where you read about the way LLR was “grievously” injured in the lathi-charge.

          One simple question buzurgo, why are you trying to communalise the fight for Indian freedom? In your Raj Karega Khalsa (b)aki rahey na koi’ zeal, you are humiliating the martyrs. thats what you call INTOLERANCE.

          As far as heart attack is concerned, well one of the star Hindu-baiter Inder singh ghagga has claimed in his book that ” Siri Guru Arjun Dev Ji fainted when he was tortured because he could not withstand the pain”

          I would wait for ur Prof Mann to write a song about GAD fainting because he could not withstand pain. i bet he would never dare to do that. why risk ex-communication when you have Hindus as soft targets?

          • Rajinder Singh Virk says:

            I am not trying to communalise any thing,the last time I went to a religious place or uttered the supplication was maybe 60/65 yrs ago.Iam just saying there are two sides to a story,and sometimes the fallacy of a situation just takes over.As far as hindus being soft targets,well my personal/public view is sikhs were/are/will alwaysbe glorified hindus.

          • Sher says:

            You may not have 'initiated' the lampooning of a person treated as a martyr but yes, you did tell us that LLR was never injured in the brutal lathicharge. Anyway, i respect your views.

            as far as going to a religious pace is concerned, we are in the same boat :) no special liking for any ESTABLISHED faith.

            @glorified hindus … now you have to be very brave to admit this eternal truth. I have a very large & beautiful gurudwara near my place. All day i hear katha about Hari, Ram, Parhlad, kalyug, karma, yamm, kaal, etc. How these icons and beliefs are diff from Sanatan Hinduism, I fail to comprehend. maybe i am not trained vigorously in matters spiritual.

            Respects

          • Karimul Fateh says:

            @Sher, VeerG can you identify any of the religious text of Hindus which call them Hindus.

          • Sher says:

            none. but thats the term loosely used for people following dharmic faiths which originated in India (inc Buddhism, Jainism and err Sikhism). No religious text also says there is a ‘Sikh dharma’ or “khalsa dharma”. thats why i used the term “sanatan” which means ancient.

            yes, the so-called Sikh texts have mentioned the term ‘Hinduism’ liberally.

            ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?
            Throughout the world the Khalsa Panth will be prominent. The Hindu Dharam will prevail, and the Turks will be in flight.

            That was from ‘Ugardanti’ which is recited in Nihang Chavnis (Cantonments) everyday. It also finds a place in Buddha dal Nitname gutka.

            Anyway, is there any specific point which you are trying to establish?

            Sher

          • Karimul says:

            @Sher the explantion given by you only tells how much confused you are .

          • Karimul says:

            Sher VeerG , Just googling should not be our way of finding our history. We need to check records on the ground here I am not endorsing the Babbu Maan version of history for which i am very much sceptical in accepting it. Now the term "glorified Hindus" I am also very sceptical to it whenver somebody calls Sikhs as Hindus, Why is that today Sikhs does not want to remain Sikhs but instead wants to be seen as Hindus? I am not denying that there are references to "Hari, Ram, Parhlad, kalyug, karma, yamm, kaal, etc" but these are being shown as servants of god who carry out there work according to the will of God, there status in Hinduism differes greatly from sikhism. In hinduism you'll find many references in which the three gods namely (Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva) are looked down in context to each other.In Vedas, the one who is eulogised as Brahma, 'Hirnai-Garv', Swambhu' and Apar Brahm, and who is held as being worthy of Worship as Onkar and the most cherished object of veneration, nay the
            supreme source of divine light, had been shown as being an irredeemable debauch and a crook in Shiv Puran,Rudar Sahanta-2 and Sati Khard-3, Chapter 19. So also it occurs in Bhagwat Puran – that Brahma often stole calves of Krishna and came frequently to eulogise Krishna. Ramayan contains allusion to Brahma having come many a time to sing praises of Ram Chander. Thus in these religious works Brahma had been shown to be a philanderer par excellence, ignorant, a cheat and a vulgar sycophant.
            The question here is that can we remain Sikhs or better Gursikhs without losing our traditions and individuality? To say the last, I am Sikh not Hindu without any grudge towards Hindu religion. But it hurts me more than anything else when somebody calls me a Hindu. (Regarding the term hindu just search the term in perisan and urdu dictionary)

          • Sher says:

            First, I do not know how you like to be addressed so, assuming you are from a Muslim background, shall I call you ‘Mianji’ or shall i call you ‘Maulana sahib’ as Muslim do not like a ‘ji’ to be used with their titles?
            I accept your humiliating words about my state of mind (“confused”) with humility prescribed for a ‘Sikh’. When i say Sikh i mean a person who believes in the simple message of nanak about love and peace and not one as defined by SGPC. If we go by the SGPC’s definition, majority of Sikhs would not qualify to be followers of Nanak and the message enshrined in Shri GGranth Sahib as they have shorn hair or drink or…Forget it, that would be deviating from the points raised by you. Also, that is a modern day definition. even Gurus may not have endorsed such an inclusive perspective of their flock.

            As far as googling to ‘find’ history is concerned, that is, being a history student, not my way of researching our past. I can very well quote from history books to support my arguments. I am much more comfortable researching history than religious text.

            Mianji, honestly, I did not understand your scepticism about “…whenver somebody calls Sikhs as Hindus”.

            Now please go through your resources other than ‘google’ and let me know the exact point where Sikhs ceased to be Hindus. To become a Sikh, Hindu was not required to be converted the way Muslims would do (and still do). Even today, any person in this world can practice both the faiths simultaneously. In spite of all the negative developments in the past three decades, they still have roti, beti da rishta. Even i, born into a ‘Hindu’ family, am married to a Jat sikh girl WITH parents’ consent. Till late 19th century there was virtually no difference between Sikhs (inc Khalsas) and Hindus.

            “A look at the census figures may be useful here. In 1881, ca. 41% of the Panjabis classified themselves as Hindus, only 5.5% as Sikhs; by the time of Partition, the percentage of “Hindus” had decreased to 26%, that of “Sikhs” increased to 13%. This had of course nothing to do with conversion, merely with the pressure on the Sahajdharis to become Kesadharis and assume an identity distinct from the Hindus.”

            Forget the fact that Hindus and Sikhs were the ‘same’, even Mussalman rural communities were for all practical reasons ‘Hindus’. To quote census directly:

            “The Musalman, Rajput, Gujar, or Jat is for all social, tribal, political and administrative purposes exactly as much a Rajput, Gujar, or Jat as his Hindu brother. His social customs are unaltered, his tribal restrictions are unrelaxed, his rules of marriage and inheritance unchanged; and almost the only difference is that he shaves his scalplock, and the upper edge of his moustache, repeats the Mahomedan creed in a mosque and adds the Musalman to the Hindu wedding ceremony. As I have already shown in the chapter on religion, he even worships the same idols as before, or has only lately ceased to do so.” UNQUOTE

            Mind you the word ‘Sikh” is not even mentioned here in this extract from 1881 census.

            As the post is getting a bit too long, pls also check this well-researched (quoting research papers) article too:
            http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/sikhism/ge

            I can go on a write a book on such HISTORICAL facts but restricted by space limitations here.

            Also, these are verifiable figures and not a piece of concocted history Tat Khallsa historians are so clever at. One example of concocted Tat Khalsa history:

            ‘Mian Mir laid the foundation of Harimandir’.

            Now use all the tools at your disposal and give me reference of one history book which mentions this. ‘harimandir’ also reminds me, looks like, going by your skewed argument about usage of Hindu icons in GGS as ‘slaves’; the revered Guru Arjun Dev should have used the term ‘Ghulam’ as a prefix with Hari so it should read “Ghulam Hari mandir”. Right mianji?

            Also, the use of derogatory terms for Hindu icons, you are showing off your Jihadi mentality. For you anyone other than a sunni musim is a Kafir and how you treat Kaffirs?

            I would give one sample and let other readers decide:
            http://www.bharatvani.org/books/mla/

            have a read of this book by Gurbachan singh Talib and decide.
            I would also leave it to TLH moderators to caution you for abusing religious icons who have been mentioned with reverence in Guru Granth sahib and also for the reason that TLH is not a forum to abuse ANY religious figure inc Prophet Mohammad.

            Grow up my friend and WOULD REAL KARIMUL PLEASE STAND UP

          • Karimul says:

            Sher VeerG as far my name is concerned please read Jaap Sahib you'll find reference to it . This post of yours only tells from where your sources are coming from, RSS shakas, and i don't need those from reshimbagh to teach me my history.

            I have not humiliated any god from any religion all i have done is quoted the text from Hindu religious scripture. If you can't digest the truth then that's not my problem.

            "Even today, any person in this world can practice both the faiths simultaneously." LMFO on this statement of your's , VeerG do kisthion ki savari ek saath nahin kari ja sakti. Sher VeerG, grow up kuch RSS toh bahar bhi aake sikho.

          • Sher says:

            This post of yours only tells from where your sources are coming from, RSS shakas, and i don't need those from reshimbagh…"

            RSS Shakas… hahahaha and what is this 'reshimbagh'?

            You sound like a frustrated, angry soul. right mianji? And do you believe in Dasam Granth (Jaap sahib reference) ? asking as it is a bit unusual for a bitter Muslim to dig through sikh scriptures and find at least one 'Muslim' name he (??) can feel comfortable with.

            As far as RSS jibe is concerned, that is the last resort jibe of frusto lot like you. means you have already exhausted your logic, rationale and cannot carry on with civil debate any more?

            i had quoted from 1881 census, a scholarly paper, late GS Talib (ex chief SGPC) book… I do not know how u have reached such conclusion. if u could explain please.

            And yes, i had just started giving you a background of the logic behind "glorified Hindus' expression used by one of our TLH colleagues. Looks like you have already backed out. right Mianji?

            About humiliating Hindu/sikh icons is concerned, well I am not exactly a religious person so i would leave it to you how low you want to stoop to prove some petty point. i can quote 100s of such references right from G Granth sahib where 'Hindu' icons have been referred to with reverence.

            As far as do kashtion ki savvari is concerned, you are once again exposing your insistence on closing sikhism doors on others. It is bigots like you (whatever faith you are from) who are responsible for the recent schism between Ravidassia (sikhs) and so-called upper caste khalsas. Ravidassia have announced their own separate religion and moved GGS out of their 'temples'.

            Anyway, kabhi open mind sey bhi socch key dekho Mianji. Islam key alawa majhab aur bhi hain. stop trying to create diff between Hindu-sikh communities as this was not what Gurus wanted. Repeating once again, FOR DHARMIC FAITHS DHARMA IS ONE. DHARMA DOES NOT MEAN 'RELIGION' BUT WAY OF LIFE.

            I hope your bigoted mind would be able to comprehend this reality one day.

            now you can go back to your hateful existence.

            “Sakala jaga me khalsa pantha gaje,
            Jage dharam Hinduka turk dunde bhaje”

          • Karimul says:

            Sher VeerG i can only laugh at your response. I know ignorance is bliss but this much is painful. Just look at your post and see how contradictory claims you have made in a single reply. At first you refer to me as "Mianji" as muslim and then you ahead and claims the people like me are responsible for schism between Ravidassia and Sikhs. First of all make up your mind by which label you want to call me "Mianji" or "Upper caste Sikh". (For your information I am Sikh who professes only Sikh religion wihtout any grudge towards other religion).
            I have not backed out from anything but yes I forgot to ask one question "How do you define the term Hindus"?
            I am repeating once again that I have not humiliated any religious figure all I have done is quoted from Hindu religious scripture with reference to them.
            Now let us turn attention to your reference to book by "Gurbachan singh Talib" , you only brought that reference here because you took me as a Muslim, which I am not, that's the reason I skirted that point. Yes I have read that book and also I have Satyarth Prakash from Swami Dayanand and the booklet "Khalsa panth ki haqeeqat" by "Bishumbar Dutt and Raunak Ram " . What is in them i need not explain which I think many of TLH reader may be knowing .
            Regarding meaning of Ugardanti text which you refer again and again is not what you think. Here I am Quoting you the complete text
            "???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?
            ??? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ?
            ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?"

            Firstly It is not hinduka as you have quoted it is hinduk, secondly the termused is "??? ??? " not "???? ???" which changes the meaning to Khalsa panth will rule the world when khalsa is awake and Hindu turkan will go away like fog.

            And Lastly , please get over the mindset of your which says Sikhs can have only hindu like names. There are many names like my name for e.g :- Iqbal Singh, Zorawar Singh, Parveen Singh, Fateh Singh etc.

          • Sher says:

            Mian Karimul sahib, when you have finished your moronic laugh; have another read of what I had written in my msg.

            There is no contradiction in my post. I blamed Ravidassia-Khalsa rift on BIGOTS. i am re-producing the exact words to show what a

            "It is bigots like you (whatever faith you are from) who are responsible for the recent schism between Ravidassia (sikhs) and so-called upper caste khalsas".

            “I am Sikh who professes only Sikh religion wihtout any grudge towards other religion.”

            Now I realise even sunni muslim bigots like you have sense of humour. This is funny. @no grudge … Every post of yours is dripping with malice, vitriolic against everything ‘Hindu’ and here u are claiming “i am sikh …without grudge…”

            As far as quoting from Hindu scriptures is concerned, why did u do it as there was no relevance of your obscene, sacrilegious outburst against figures which are revered by both Hindus and Sikhs (as in GGS)? Shows what kind of filth ur little brain is brimming with.

            “you took me as a Muslim…” Mianji, why play such infantile hide n’ seek games? There are too many reasons indicating that u follow the alien faith from the wastelands of Arabia. Ur TLH name ‘karimul fateh’ is one great giveaway.

            What is written in Satyarth parkash written by Arya samaji dayanand, do let me know. I would then quote his highly offensive words against Sanatan Hinduism and its icons. He was a reformer who was much ahead of sikh gurus or any other bhagat/spiritual leader in denouncing idolatry and karam kanda (ritualism) which, in his opinion, ails ‘Arya’ Dharma.

            Khalsa panth ki haqeeqat" by "Bishumbar Dutt and Raunak Ram "

            Now that is indeed funny, who are these jokers? Some small town pamphleteers? You are comparing the ‘hurt’ caused by these two morons to centuries of zulm inflicted by ruthless hordes of Muslims on Sikhs and Hindus? Half a million Hindus and Sikhs perished in 1947 partition violence at the hands of brute zihadi muslims. You compare that with the writing of what-was-their-names publicity mongers???!!!! You gotta be a third grade human being if u are trying to do so. FYI there has never been Hindu-Sikh riots. And i hope these two sister communities would sort out their little differences in mature manner.
            Also, u have mentioned two obscure writers for their anti-sikh (I assume) writings. There are scores of Sikh writers who have written volumes against Hindus and Hinduism. Assuming for one minute that u are a sikh, how do u justify such anti-hindu writings by sikh writers?

            As far as Ugradanti extract is concerned, once again u have exposed ur malicious, divisive mentality.

            I did not insist it is jage dharma or jaage dharma anywhere. Thats ur insecure mind manifesting itself once again.

            LOL @ Hindu turkan” Hahahahaha that is a really one revolutionary coinage “Hindu turkan” hahahaha it is like saying jihadi nihang. Poor you Mian Karimul sahib. I bet u must be feeling v insecure caught here in this debate about Sikhism as u have no clue what this ‘DHARAM’ thingie is about.

            Fateh singh, zorawar singh…. still hindu names mianji as they have a ‘Hindu’ second name.

            C’mon give it another go. I am sure u are capable of giving something much better only if u write as a Muslim.

            “Sakala jagata me khalsa pantha gaje,
            Jage dharam hindu sakal bhanda bhaje”

            That was the 39th chaand. Clearly mentions ‘Jage dharma hindu’. Which part u did not understand Mianji?

            If you insist, i can give complete translation of ‘Ugradanti’ which clearly states that Khalsa was created as sword arm of Hinduism and to fight Islam.

          • Karimul Fateh says:

            Sher VeerG or I should call you Sher Mianji as Sher is not the hindu name , it is persian name equivalent for Lion (English), Singh (Sanskrit/Hindi). So you also became Mianji according to your logic although pathetic one.

            Now let us come to ugardanti that you love to quote , these chhants are also from that ugardanti
            ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?Graves, Hindu temples and Mosques be destroyed and that only Eternal, Hari is to be worshiped.
            ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ? That all Vedas, Shashtras and Puranas to be destroyed. Destroy prayer call, circumcision and Quran.

            and another one
            ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ?
            There is too much corruption in the two religions (Hindu and Islam). The third Panth (Khalsa) is made prominent.
            ???? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?
            The Khalsa Panth is established. Sikh warriors flourish in the world, blue in their wearing.

          • Sher says:

            yes, ugradanti (where almost every verse is addressed to Bhagvati) has these stanzas too and also quite a few about annihilating zalim Muslims.

            “Command me to kill and destroy the Turks (Muslims).
            Eliminate the killing of the cow from the entire universe.

            I shall kill the Mughals and end their rule.
            The triumphant clarion call of morality will again resound in the universe.”

            This slave of yours stands at your door and implores to you.
            Destroy the Turks and enlighten the universe.

            The predominance of the Turks (Muslims) ought to be wiped out from the world.
            The saints and devotees should endure and the evil thieves perish.”

            …and many more.

            More later…. Bizli chalee gayee. Lagda Allah ney intervene kitta to rescue one of his Gazis from the intellectual onslaught of a Kaafir ;)

          • Karimul Fateh says:

            Sher Mian, I quoted those verse which clearly shows that Khalsa panth is different from the existing two. Which is bone of contention between us. The chhants clearly says that Khalsa panth is different from existing two(Hindu and Islam).So even from your source it is established the Khalsa Panth is different .

          • Sher says:

            So you insist that sikhs should follow every word written in Ugradanti.. MIanji….bahut mehnga padega as it cearly extorts khalsas to finish Muslims from the face of earth. would you agree with those 'chhands' too?

          • Rajinder Singh Virk says:

            Looks like u r a real student of history,well i am sort of ametauer history buff myself plus of course the age factor.Funny how history repeats it self as seen thru some of these posts not u though.Keep it up.

          • Sher says:

            Thank you so much Rajinderji.

            yes, history tends to repeat itself and Indic 'Dharam' may once again ( i do not want to sound alarmist here) come under 'Turks' siege. Sikh and Hindu spiritual leaders need to work out internal differences and respect each other's RELIGION.

          • KDS says:

            Sher

            “Sakala jagata me khalsa pantha gaje,
            Jage dharam hindu sakal bhanda bhaje”

            That was the 39th chaand. Clearly mentions ‘Jage dharma hindu’. Which part u did not understand Mianji?

            If you insist, i can give complete translation of ‘Ugradanti’ which clearly states that Khalsa was created as sword arm of Hinduism and to fight Islam.

            Sher if you really think you have so much knowledge of sikhism and sikh scriptures then please come to http://www.sikhawareness.com

            The people on that site site have extremely deep knowledge of sikhism(I am not one of them)and there are many sanatan sikhs on that site .The line you have quoted can be interpreted in several ways

          • Sher says:

            no no no, i do not have vast knowledge about Sikhi as practiced today. once again, i am history student so that makes me a sikh too ;)

            i know what you are pushing me to. sikhawareness.com is nothing but a lynch mob waiting to stone to death any non-conformist to their version of sikh “history”. their history is based on folklore and has no substance…. Just read one post about a canadian hindu writing something about sikh terrorism. wow! hatred against Hindus is unbelievable. Thats where our Mianji should spend most of his time :)

          • Rajinder Singh Virk says:

            You have used the right word non-conformist,keep it up it is very hard for people following a rigid mind set, to even contemplate different interpertation of the same situtation.Bravo.

          • Sher says:

            Thanks Rajinderji, much appreciated. those who follow others blindly are just a part of the herd. i also admire your conviction to state the truth (glorified Hindus). As far as shaheedi(or plain death) of Lala Lajpat Rai is concerned, yes we can agree to disagree.

          • KDS says:

            Ha ha ha

            I have seen your bahaduri.I have recommended you one of the most tolerant site.If I wanted to throw you in front of mob then i would have recommended you http://sikhsangat.com/ Which is full of fanatics.The reason I said you should discussings on forum because You write long posts that require long replies.
            blogs are not appropriate for this

            BTW Please read what that hindu has written.That person is clearly trying to justify 1984 riots and is trying to say that 1984 riots should be celebrated .
            http://www.nationalpost.com/scripts/Liberal+value

          • Sher says:

            :) KDS you live in your own fanatsies like those fanatics which u have mentioned in ur post. My bahaduri… well i do not know how you have ‘seen’ my bahaduri and what opinion u have made thereof. to tell u the truth, ur opinion about my attributes doesnt bother me. as far as my reluctance to join ur recommended loonies forum is concerned, well, my friend i simply do not have time to post logical replies to sheer profanities those ‘gyanis’ have for anyone who dares to challenge their versions of concocted history and distorted sikh text.

            i feel much more comfortable here till TLH administrators decide “enuff!” and kick me out :)

            Just one simple advice nay suggestion: do not assume … and get over the stereotypes which u may have in ur mind.

          • KDS says:

            Sher

            The way you called every sikh site a lynch of mob clearly shows who live in fantasy world.I have already explained why I said that you should discuss things their or on sikh forums.This is very same mentality I have seen in many hindu's on forums that if you don't agree with them with their version of sikhi then you must be some khalistani who want's to kill hindu's.

            BTW you are already posting enough on TLH so don't say that you don't have time.It is just you have some stereotype about sikhs and all sikh forums are just forums of khalistani's for you

          • Sher says:

            KDS, i can quote from the website referred by you to show what kind of mentality the psters have. my reluctance is also due to point the moment i write something which does not conform with prevailing Khalsa beliefs, i am banned. I have NOT called anyone khalistani here or did I? I have thanked TLH somewhere for maintaining their "progressive" outlook. TLH is not against the 'counter-point', i once again reiterate and once again say thanks to them. time constraint…. well i can only give half an hour or so to this 'indulgence'. v hard to research my facts and write 'long' post in this half an hour, believe me.

          • KDS says:

            Sher

            If you pick 1 or 2 posts of some khalistani on that website and show me that look how much fanatics they are then I can't do anything.There are plenty of sikh sites which are quite tolerant.Yes khalistani's are on every forum and you can't do anything about them..Every poster on sikh website has its own indivisual personality

            And BTW I am myself a moderator of another sikh website.We have to deal with all type of nuts.Yes admin's do ban but before banning someone he asks all the mods what to do about a person who become a menace for site.hardly a person
            who uses sane logic get banned.

            If you wish To continue discussing on TLH
            its your wish but stop stereotyping all sikh websites owned by some khalistani's spreading hatred and venom against hindu's

          • Sher says:

            John Major report on kanishka Air India 182 bombing is out.. just wanted to pay tribute to those 329 innocents

            I wish it never happened

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x6fs1IpSDk

            the fanatic in this footage want to slaughter 50,000 innocent Hindus..

            just sad ….

          • sukhpreet says:

            Please take the time to view all the evidence preseneted here:

          • Sher says:

            where? link seems to be missing

          • sukhpreet says:

            Put it in twice, TLH seems to reject it for some reason. I'll try one more time: [ www youtube com/user/udhoke#p/p/BAF27C0D5CA0CB7E/0/UZzipTUqWXU ]
            http://www.youtube.com/user/udhoke#p/p/BAF27C0D5C

          • Sher says:

            once again, too much venom, too much rhetoric here. Please highlight the points this disgusting chauvinist has raised and I would try to get back to you asap (time constraints allowing).

          • sukhpreet says:

            "once again, too much venom, too much rhetoric … disgusting chauvinist"

            Describes you rather well. You don't seem to have the time or inclination to listen to what others have to say, and your agenda appears to be to dish out crap on others.

            Hmmm, disgusting chauvinist, seems to sum you up rather well (you said it).

          • Sher says:

            Sukhpreet jeo, please point out which part of my posts has been 'venomous' or where did i sound like a 'chauvinist'.

            I must admit here, I WAS WRONG in calling Udhoke (and by implication) Bhindranwala what I did. They were/are definitely not chauvinists. my apologies for using a wrong term.

            Before hit-squads are sent to eliminate me for trying to expose that "greatest sikh of the 20 century', i would ask you once again to give evidence in the shape of news articles, court cases, videos, audio recordings, etc. to back your argument.

            yes, i may be disgusting chauvinist without knowing myself. But my friend I would never be a terrorist and a bigot who incessantly provoke his flock to kill, loot, maim people of the other community for none of their faults.
            I would also not allow a semi-literate dogmatist to influence my thinking and my actions…to brainwash me to this extent that i start hating ‘my own people’. I am intelligent enough to not call such a hate-monger a ‘Sant’ in any circumstances.
            Please allow me to call jarnail singh Bhindranwala a cold-blooded murderer who did nothing in his lifetime but spew venom against those who did not follow his brand of intolerant Sikhi.

            Irony is that Bhindranwala believed in Dasam Granth. Till date his seminary Damdami Taksal is doing ‘parkash’ of Dasam Granth along with GGS. As far as I know Dasam Granth is nothing but a pure Hindu granth.
            Ask yourself gurmukho, how you can allow such confused fanatic to be labelled the ‘Greatest Sikh of the 20th century’.
            If you want me to provide evidence to back any point, do let me know as volumes have been written about Bhindran’s single-track extremist ideology which reflects everything except Sikhi as preached by Baba Nanak.

            As far as this supremacist with mule Udhoke is concerned, i can counter each and every point he is raising. please start another thread and we can discuss him with complete patience and rationale.

            Also, i have immense time to read YOUR posts but feel constrained while writing responses so please do let me know where i am wrong.

            PS Sorry to say this, do not 'chicken out' if you fail to find anything wrong in the issues i am raising.

            Thanks

            SHER

          • Sikh_soldier says:

            I gone thru all your views. jst want to ask you all one thing. what if a soldier in army who is always ready for fight with enemy and had faught many battles and some day he will die naturally what would u call him.. a soldier or civilian??

            sitting with all comforts and making blogs are jst easy thing.. even having a jajba for country, faith etc is different thing….if someone dies having jajba for his country. faith etc then it should not matter whether he dies with canes, bullet or tank even he dies naturally.. we should atleast respect their thinking and willingness of freedom. who brought you freedom you are making nonsense discussions for them..

            Guru Fateh

          • Kapoor says:

            Can you please give me your e-mail address. I loved your knowledge and wisdom about the history of my motherland and would love to learn a thing or two from you. Thanks

        • Rajinder Singh says:

          Sir,
          I got a question. Could it be that your father ran away before the lathi charge. So he is 100% correct that
          "there was no lathi charge on that day at lahore rlwy station". ?

          • Rajinder Singh Virk says:

            Could have been,since i was not present there cannot say with certainity,however the medical reports and other circumstantial/eye witness accounts/records taken collectively paint a very different picture.By the way i do get the subtle taunt in your post for me.

  6. Rajinder Singh Virk says:

    According to records the train carrying the members never arrived on the platform of lahore rly station.Instead the train was stopped about 2/2.5 miles outside the station and members of the simon commission were taken to govt.rest house by cars.There was no lathicharge all that happened was,capt.Scott the top cop was waving his cane and telling people to disperse as there were no members of simon commission.As he was waving the tip of his cane touched the pointed tip of lalaji's open umbrella thats all that happened.Lalaji was a cardiac patient long before this incident.At his funeral,being exorted by sarla devi from calcutta bhagat singh and his companians vowed revenge,and in the process killed lt.Sanders and hc. Channan singh and the rest is history.

    • Sher says:

      Virk saab find similar fictitious records or Mati Das and Sati Das too, also for Haqiqat Rai, Madan Lal Dhingra and that stupid fellow Sukhdev Thapar too. These people had no right to sacrifice their lives for their dharma and for their nation. They should have known that ONLY Jat's sacrifice is recognised in modern day Punjab. I am pretty sure most of the readers would not have even heard these names before. Madan Lal dhingra killed a gora officer in London for which he was hanged just like (and much before) Udham Singh. Sukhdev was hanged along with Bhagat Singh and another of idiots Rajguru. Mati das, Sati das, Haqiqat Rai… forget them, wait for Babbu Mann's highly-informed lampoons about these 'accidental' shaheeds.

      • Rajinder Singh Virk says:

        I dont know what u r talking about,but the incident was witnessed by my father there was no lathi charge on that day at lahore rlwy station.Lala Lajpat Rai with all his good/bad points was a cardiac patient and died of a heart attack,any one can check the medical records/files.As for fictitious records I dont have to do it,being born in 1929 I have seen enough history being made to last me a life time.As for rest of the letter I think you have lampooned yourself.

        • Sher says:

          Just google "lala llajpat rai injured" and every where you read about the way LLR was "grievously" injured in the lathi-charge.

          One simple question buzurgo, why are you trying to communalise the fight for Indian freedom? In your Raj Karega Khalsa (b)aki rahey na koi' zeal, you are humiliating the martyrs. thats what you call INTOLERANCE.

          As far as heart attack is concerned, well one of the star Hindu-baiter Inder singh ghagga has claimed in his book that " Siri Guru Arjun Dev Ji fainted when he was tortured because he could not withstand the pain"

          I would wait for ur Prof Mann to write a song about GAD fainting because he could not withstand pain. i bet he would never dare to do that. why risk ex-communication when you have Hindus as soft targets?

          • Rajinder Singh Virk says:

            I am not trying to communalise any thing,the last time I went to a religious place or uttered the supplication was maybe 60/65 yrs ago.Iam just saying there are two sides to a story,and sometimes the fallacy of a situation just takes over.As far as hindus being soft targets,well my personal/public view is sikhs were/are/will alwaysbe glorified hindus.

          • Sher says:

            You may not have 'initiated' the lampooning of a person treated as a martyr but yes, you did tell us that LLR was never injured in the brutal lathicharge. Anyway, i respect your views.

            as far as going to a religious pace is concerned, we are in the same boat :) no special liking for any ESTABLISHED faith.

            @glorified hindus … now you have to be very brave to admit this eternal truth. I have a very large & beautiful gurudwara near my place. All day i hear katha about Hari, Ram, Parhlad, kalyug, karma, yamm, kaal, etc. How these icons and beliefs are diff from Sanatan Hinduism, I fail to comprehend. maybe i am not trained vigorously in matters spiritual.

            Respects

          • Karimul Fateh says:

            @Sher, VeerG can you identify any of the religious text of Hindus which call them Hindus.

          • Sher says:

            none. but thats the term loosely used for people following dharmic faiths which originated in India (inc Buddhism, Jainism and err Sikhism). No religious text also says there is a 'Sikh dharma' or "khalsa dharma". thats why i used the term "sanatan" which means ancient.

            yes, the so-called Sikh texts have mentioned the term 'Hinduism' liberally.

            ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?

            Throughout the world the Khalsa Panth will be prominent. The Hindu Dharam will prevail, and the Turks will be in flight.

            That was from 'Ugardanti' which is recited in Nihang Chavnis (Cantonments) everyday. It also finds a place in Buddha dal Nitname gutka.

            Anyway, is there any specific point which you are trying to establish?

            Sher

          • Karimul says:

            @Sher the explantion given by you only tells how much confused you are .

          • Karimul says:

            Sher VeerG , Just googling should not be our way of finding our history. We need to check records on the ground here I am not endorsing the Babbu Maan version of history for which i am very much sceptical in accepting it. Now the term "glorified Hindus" I am also very sceptical to it whenver somebody calls Sikhs as Hindus, Why is that today Sikhs does not want to remain Sikhs but instead wants to be seen as Hindus? I am not denying that there are references to "Hari, Ram, Parhlad, kalyug, karma, yamm, kaal, etc" but these are being shown as servants of god who carry out there work according to the will of God, there status in Hinduism differes greatly from sikhism. In hinduism you'll find many references in which the three gods namely (Vishnu, Brahma, Shiva) are looked down in context to each other.In Vedas, the one who is eulogised as Brahma, 'Hirnai-Garv', Swambhu' and Apar Brahm, and who is held as being worthy of Worship as Onkar and the most cherished object of veneration, nay the
            supreme source of divine light, had been shown as being an irredeemable debauch and a crook in Shiv Puran,Rudar Sahanta-2 and Sati Khard-3, Chapter 19. So also it occurs in Bhagwat Puran – that Brahma often stole calves of Krishna and came frequently to eulogise Krishna. Ramayan contains allusion to Brahma having come many a time to sing praises of Ram Chander. Thus in these religious works Brahma had been shown to be a philanderer par excellence, ignorant, a cheat and a vulgar sycophant.
            The question here is that can we remain Sikhs or better Gursikhs without losing our traditions and individuality? To say the last, I am Sikh not Hindu without any grudge towards Hindu religion. But it hurts me more than anything else when somebody calls me a Hindu. (Regarding the term hindu just search the term in perisan and urdu dictionary)

          • Sher says:

            First, I do not know how you like to be addressed so, assuming you are from a Muslim background, shall I call you ‘Mianji’ or shall i call you ‘Maulana sahib’ as Muslim do not like a ‘ji’ to be used with their titles?
            I accept your humiliating words about my state of mind (“confused”) with humility prescribed for a ‘Sikh’. When i say Sikh i mean a person who believes in the simple message of nanak about love and peace and not one as defined by SGPC. If we go by the SGPC’s definition, majority of Sikhs would not qualify to be followers of Nanak and the message enshrined in Shri GGranth Sahib as they have shorn hair or drink or…Forget it, that would be deviating from the points raised by you. Also, that is a modern day definition. even Gurus may not have endorsed such an inclusive perspective of their flock.

            As far as googling to ‘find’ history is concerned, that is, being a history student, not my way of researching our past. I can very well quote from history books to support my arguments. I am much more comfortable researching history than religious text.

            Mianji, honestly, I did not understand your scepticism about “…whenver somebody calls Sikhs as Hindus”.

            Now please go through your resources other than ‘google’ and let me know the exact point where Sikhs ceased to be Hindus. To become a Sikh, Hindu was not required to be converted the way Muslims would do (and still do). Even today, any person in this world can practice both the faiths simultaneously. In spite of all the negative developments in the past three decades, they still have roti, beti da rishta. Even i, born into a ‘Hindu’ family, am married to a Jat sikh girl WITH parents’ consent. Till late 19th century there was virtually no difference between Sikhs (inc Khalsas) and Hindus.

            “A look at the census figures may be useful here. In 1881, ca. 41% of the Panjabis classified themselves as Hindus, only 5.5% as Sikhs; by the time of Partition, the percentage of “Hindus” had decreased to 26%, that of “Sikhs” increased to 13%. This had of course nothing to do with conversion, merely with the pressure on the Sahajdharis to become Kesadharis and assume an identity distinct from the Hindus.”

            Forget the fact that Hindus and Sikhs were the ‘same’, even Mussalman rural communities were for all practical reasons ‘Hindus’. To quote census directly:

            “The Musalman, Rajput, Gujar, or Jat is for all social, tribal, political and administrative purposes exactly as much a Rajput, Gujar, or Jat as his Hindu brother. His social customs are unaltered, his tribal restrictions are unrelaxed, his rules of marriage and inheritance unchanged; and almost the only difference is that he shaves his scalplock, and the upper edge of his moustache, repeats the Mahomedan creed in a mosque and adds the Musalman to the Hindu wedding ceremony. As I have already shown in the chapter on religion, he even worships the same idols as before, or has only lately ceased to do so.” UNQUOTE

            Mind you the word ‘Sikh” is not even mentioned here in this extract from 1881 census.

            As the post is getting a bit too long, pls also check this well-researched (quoting research papers) article too:
            http://philtar.ucsm.ac.uk/encyclopedia/sikhism/ge

            I can go on a write a book on such HISTORICAL facts but restricted by space limitations here.

            Also, these are verifiable figures and not a piece of concocted history Tat Khallsa historians are so clever at. One example of concocted Tat Khalsa history:

            ‘Mian Mir laid the foundation of Harimandir’.

            Now use all the tools at your disposal and give me reference of one history book which mentions this. ‘harimandir’ also reminds me, looks like, going by your skewed argument about usage of Hindu icons in GGS as ‘slaves’; the revered Guru Arjun Dev should have used the term ‘Ghulam’ as a prefix with Hari so it should read “Ghulam Hari mandir”. Right mianji?

            Also, the use of derogatory terms for Hindu icons, you are showing off your Jihadi mentality. For you anyone other than a sunni musim is a Kafir and how you treat Kaffirs?

            I would give one sample and let other readers decide:
            http://www.bharatvani.org/books/mla/

            have a read of this book by Gurbachan singh Talib and decide.
            I would also leave it to TLH moderators to caution you for abusing religious icons who have been mentioned with reverence in Guru Granth sahib and also for the reason that TLH is not a forum to abuse ANY religious figure inc Prophet Mohammad.

            Grow up my friend and WOULD REAL KARIMUL PLEASE STAND UP

          • Karimul says:

            Sher VeerG as far my name is concerned please read Jaap Sahib you'll find reference to it . This post of yours only tells from where your sources are coming from, RSS shakas, and i don't need those from reshimbagh to teach me my history.

            I have not humiliated any god from any religion all i have done is quoted the text from Hindu religious scripture. If you can't digest the truth then that's not my problem.

            "Even today, any person in this world can practice both the faiths simultaneously." LMFO on this statement of your's , VeerG do kisthion ki savari ek saath nahin kari ja sakti. Sher VeerG, grow up kuch RSS toh bahar bhi aake sikho.

          • Sher says:

            This post of yours only tells from where your sources are coming from, RSS shakas, and i don't need those from reshimbagh…"

            RSS Shakas… hahahaha and what is this 'reshimbagh'?

            You sound like a frustrated, angry soul. right mianji? And do you believe in Dasam Granth (Jaap sahib reference) ? asking as it is a bit unusual for a bitter Muslim to dig through sikh scriptures and find at least one 'Muslim' name he (??) can feel comfortable with.

            As far as RSS jibe is concerned, that is the last resort jibe of frusto lot like you. means you have already exhausted your logic, rationale and cannot carry on with civil debate any more?

            i had quoted from 1881 census, a scholarly paper, late GS Talib (ex chief SGPC) book… I do not know how u have reached such conclusion. if u could explain please.

            And yes, i had just started giving you a background of the logic behind "glorified Hindus' expression used by one of our TLH colleagues. Looks like you have already backed out. right Mianji?

            About humiliating Hindu/sikh icons is concerned, well I am not exactly a religious person so i would leave it to you how low you want to stoop to prove some petty point. i can quote 100s of such references right from G Granth sahib where 'Hindu' icons have been referred to with reverence.

            As far as do kashtion ki savvari is concerned, you are once again exposing your insistence on closing sikhism doors on others. It is bigots like you (whatever faith you are from) who are responsible for the recent schism between Ravidassia (sikhs) and so-called upper caste khalsas. Ravidassia have announced their own separate religion and moved GGS out of their 'temples'.

            Anyway, kabhi open mind sey bhi socch key dekho Mianji. Islam key alawa majhab aur bhi hain. stop trying to create diff between Hindu-sikh communities as this was not what Gurus wanted. Repeating once again, FOR DHARMIC FAITHS DHARMA IS ONE. DHARMA DOES NOT MEAN 'RELIGION' BUT WAY OF LIFE.

            I hope your bigoted mind would be able to comprehend this reality one day.

            now you can go back to your hateful existence.

            “Sakala jaga me khalsa pantha gaje,
            Jage dharam Hinduka turk dunde bhaje”

          • Karimul says:

            Sher VeerG i can only laugh at your response. I know ignorance is bliss but this much is painful. Just look at your post and see how contradictory claims you have made in a single reply. At first you refer to me as "Mianji" as muslim and then you ahead and claims the people like me are responsible for schism between Ravidassia and Sikhs. First of all make up your mind by which label you want to call me "Mianji" or "Upper caste Sikh". (For your information I am Sikh who professes only Sikh religion wihtout any grudge towards other religion).
            I have not backed out from anything but yes I forgot to ask one question "How do you define the term Hindus"?
            I am repeating once again that I have not humiliated any religious figure all I have done is quoted from Hindu religious scripture with reference to them.
            Now let us turn attention to your reference to book by "Gurbachan singh Talib" , you only brought that reference here because you took me as a Muslim, which I am not, that's the reason I skirted that point. Yes I have read that book and also I have Satyarth Prakash from Swami Dayanand and the booklet "Khalsa panth ki haqeeqat" by "Bishumbar Dutt and Raunak Ram " . What is in them i need not explain which I think many of TLH reader may be knowing .
            Regarding meaning of Ugardanti text which you refer again and again is not what you think. Here I am Quoting you the complete text
            "???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????? ?
            ??? ??????? ???? ???? ???? ? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?????? ?
            ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ???? ? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ?"

            Firstly It is not hinduka as you have quoted it is hinduk, secondly the termused is "??? ??? " not "???? ???" which changes the meaning to Khalsa panth will rule the world when khalsa is awake and Hindu turkan will go away like fog.

            And Lastly , please get over the mindset of your which says Sikhs can have only hindu like names. There are many names like my name for e.g :- Iqbal Singh, Zorawar Singh, Parveen Singh, Fateh Singh etc.

          • Sher says:

            Mian Karimul sahib, when you have finished your moronic laugh; have another read of what I had written in my msg.

            There is no contradiction in my post. I blamed Ravidassia-Khalsa rift on BIGOTS. i am re-producing the exact words to show what a

            "It is bigots like you (whatever faith you are from) who are responsible for the recent schism between Ravidassia (sikhs) and so-called upper caste khalsas".

            “I am Sikh who professes only Sikh religion wihtout any grudge towards other religion.”

            Now I realise even sunni muslim bigots like you have sense of humour. This is funny. @no grudge … Every post of yours is dripping with malice, vitriolic against everything ‘Hindu’ and here u are claiming “i am sikh …without grudge…”

            As far as quoting from Hindu scriptures is concerned, why did u do it as there was no relevance of your obscene, sacrilegious outburst against figures which are revered by both Hindus and Sikhs (as in GGS)? Shows what kind of filth ur little brain is brimming with.

            “you took me as a Muslim…” Mianji, why play such infantile hide n’ seek games? There are too many reasons indicating that u follow the alien faith from the wastelands of Arabia. Ur TLH name ‘karimul fateh’ is one great giveaway.

            What is written in Satyarth parkash written by Arya samaji dayanand, do let me know. I would then quote his highly offensive words against Sanatan Hinduism and its icons. He was a reformer who was much ahead of sikh gurus or any other bhagat/spiritual leader in denouncing idolatry and karam kanda (ritualism) which, in his opinion, ails ‘Arya’ Dharma.

            Khalsa panth ki haqeeqat" by "Bishumbar Dutt and Raunak Ram "

            Now that is indeed funny, who are these jokers? Some small town pamphleteers? You are comparing the ‘hurt’ caused by these two morons to centuries of zulm inflicted by ruthless hordes of Muslims on Sikhs and Hindus? Half a million Hindus and Sikhs perished in 1947 partition violence at the hands of brute zihadi muslims. You compare that with the writing of what-was-their-names publicity mongers???!!!! You gotta be a third grade human being if u are trying to do so. FYI there has never been Hindu-Sikh riots. And i hope these two sister communities would sort out their little differences in mature manner.
            Also, u have mentioned two obscure writers for their anti-sikh (I assume) writings. There are scores of Sikh writers who have written volumes against Hindus and Hinduism. Assuming for one minute that u are a sikh, how do u justify such anti-hindu writings by sikh writers?

            As far as Ugradanti extract is concerned, once again u have exposed ur malicious, divisive mentality.

            I did not insist it is jage dharma or jaage dharma anywhere. Thats ur insecure mind manifesting itself once again.

            LOL @ Hindu turkan” Hahahahaha that is a really one revolutionary coinage “Hindu turkan” hahahaha it is like saying jihadi nihang. Poor you Mian Karimul sahib. I bet u must be feeling v insecure caught here in this debate about Sikhism as u have no clue what this ‘DHARAM’ thingie is about.

            Fateh singh, zorawar singh…. still hindu names mianji as they have a ‘Hindu’ second name.

            C’mon give it another go. I am sure u are capable of giving something much better only if u write as a Muslim.

            “Sakala jagata me khalsa pantha gaje,
            Jage dharam hindu sakal bhanda bhaje”

            That was the 39th chaand. Clearly mentions ‘Jage dharma hindu’. Which part u did not understand Mianji?

            If you insist, i can give complete translation of ‘Ugradanti’ which clearly states that Khalsa was created as sword arm of Hinduism and to fight Islam.

          • Karimul Fateh says:

            Sher VeerG or I should call you Sher Mianji as Sher is not the hindu name , it is persian name equivalent for Lion (English), Singh (Sanskrit/Hindi). So you also became Mianji according to your logic although pathetic one.

            Now let us come to ugardanti that you love to quote , these chhants are also from that ugardanti
            ????? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ? ????? ?? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?Graves, Hindu temples and Mosques be destroyed and that only Eternal, Hari is to be worshiped.
            ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ? That all Vedas, Shashtras and Puranas to be destroyed. Destroy prayer call, circumcision and Quran.

            and another one
            ????? ??? ??? ??? ????? ????? ? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ?
            There is too much corruption in the two religions (Hindu and Islam). The third Panth (Khalsa) is made prominent.
            ???? ????? ??? ???? ??????? ? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?
            The Khalsa Panth is established. Sikh warriors flourish in the world, blue in their wearing.

          • Sher says:

            yes, ugradanti (where almost every verse is addressed to Bhagvati) has these stanzas too and also quite a few about annihilating zalim Muslims.

            "Command me to kill and destroy the Turks (Muslims).

            Eliminate the killing of the cow from the entire universe.

            I shall kill the Mughals and end their rule.

            The triumphant clarion call of morality will again resound in the universe."

            This slave of yours stands at your door and implores to you.

            Destroy the Turks and enlighten the universe.

            The predominance of the Turks (Muslims) ought to be wiped out from the world.

            The saints and devotees should endure and the evil thieves perish."

            …and many more.

            More later…. Bizli chalee gayee. Lagda Allah ney intervene kitta to rescue one of his Gazis from the intellectual onslaught of a Kaafir ;)

          • Karimul Fateh says:

            Sher Mian, I quoted those verse which clearly shows that Khalsa panth is different from the existing two. Which is bone of contention between us. The chhants clearly says that Khalsa panth is different from existing two(Hindu and Islam).So even from your source it is established the Khalsa Panth is different .

          • Sher says:

            So you insist that sikhs should follow every word written in Ugradanti.. MIanji….bahut mehnga padega as it cearly extorts khalsas to finish Muslims from the face of earth. would you agree with those 'chhands' too?

          • Rajinder Singh Virk says:

            Looks like u r a real student of history,well i am sort of ametauer history buff myself plus of course the age factor.Funny how history repeats it self as seen thru some of these posts not u though.Keep it up.

          • Sher says:

            Thank you so much Rajinderji.

            yes, history tends to repeat itself and Indic 'Dharam' may once again ( i do not want to sound alarmist here) come under 'Turks' siege. Sikh and Hindu spiritual leaders need to work out internal differences and respect each other's RELIGION.

          • KDS says:

            Sher

            “Sakala jagata me khalsa pantha gaje,
            Jage dharam hindu sakal bhanda bhaje”

            That was the 39th chaand. Clearly mentions ‘Jage dharma hindu’. Which part u did not understand Mianji?

            If you insist, i can give complete translation of ‘Ugradanti’ which clearly states that Khalsa was created as sword arm of Hinduism and to fight Islam.

            Sher if you really think you have so much knowledge of sikhism and sikh scriptures then please come to http://www.sikhawareness.com

            The people on that site site have extremely deep knowledge of sikhism(I am not one of them)and there are many sanatan sikhs on that site .The line you have quoted can be interpreted in several ways

          • Sher says:

            no no no, i do not have vast knowledge about Sikhi as practiced today. once again, i am history student so that makes me a sikh too ;)

            i know what you are pushing me to. sikhawareness.com is nothing but a lynch mob waiting to stone to death any non-conformist to their version of sikh "history". their history is based on folklore and has no substance…. Just read one post about a canadian hindu writing something about sikh terrorism. wow! hatred against Hindus is unbelievable. Thats where our Mianji should spend most of his time :)

          • KDS says:

            Ha ha ha

            I have seen your bahaduri.I have recommended you one of the most tolerant site.If I wanted to throw you in front of mob then i would have recommended you http://sikhsangat.com/ Which is full of fanatics.The reason I said you should discussings on forum because You write long posts that require long replies.
            blogs are not appropriate for this

            BTW Please read what that hindu has written.That person is clearly trying to justify 1984 riots and is trying to say that 1984 riots should be celebrated .
            <a href="http://www.nationalpost.com/scripts/Liberal+values+Sikh+terrorism/3110007/story.html&quot; rel="nofollow"&gt <a href="http://;http://www.nationalpost.com/scripts/Liberal+value…” target=”_blank”>;http://www.nationalpost.com/scripts/Liberal+value

          • Sher says:

            :) KDS you live in your own fanatsies like those fanatics which u have mentioned in ur post. My bahaduri… well i do not know how you have 'seen' my bahaduri and what opinion u have made thereof. to tell u the truth, ur opinion about my attributes doesnt bother me. as far as my reluctance to join ur recommended loonies forum is concerned, well, my friend i simply do not have time to post logical replies to sheer profanities those 'gyanis' have for anyone who dares to challenge their versions of concocted history and distorted sikh text.

            i feel much more comfortable here till TLH administrators decide "enuff!" and kick me out :)

            Just one simple advice nay suggestion: do not assume … and get over the stereotypes which u may have in ur mind.

          • KDS says:

            Sher

            The way you called every sikh site a lynch of mob clearly shows who live in fantasy world.I have already explained why I said that you should discuss things their or on sikh forums.This is very same mentality I have seen in many hindu's on forums that if you don't agree with them with their version of sikhi then you must be some khalistani who want's to kill hindu's.

            BTW you are already posting enough on TLH so don't say that you don't have time.It is just you have some stereotype about sikhs and all sikh forums are just forums of khalistani's for you

          • Sher says:

            KDS, i can quote from the website referred by you to show what kind of mentality the psters have. my reluctance is also due to point the moment i write something which does not conform with prevailing Khalsa beliefs, i am banned. I have NOT called anyone khalistani here or did I? I have thanked TLH somewhere for maintaining their "progressive" outlook. TLH is not against the 'counter-point', i once again reiterate and once again say thanks to them. time constraint…. well i can only give half an hour or so to this 'indulgence'. v hard to research my facts and write 'long' post in this half an hour, believe me.

          • KDS says:

            Sher

            If you pick 1 or 2 posts of some khalistani on that website and show me that look how much fanatics they are then I can't do anything.There are plenty of sikh sites which are quite tolerant.Yes khalistani's are on every forum and you can't do anything about them..Every poster on sikh website has its own indivisual personality

            And BTW I am myself a moderator of another sikh website.We have to deal with all type of nuts.Yes admin's do ban but before banning someone he asks all the mods what to do about a person who become a menace for site.hardly a person
            who uses sane logic get banned.

            If you wish To continue discussing on TLH
            its your wish but stop stereotyping all sikh websites owned by some khalistani's spreading hatred and venom against hindu's

          • Sher says:

            John Major report on kanishka Air India 182 bombing is out.. just wanted to pay tribute to those 329 innocents

            I wish it never happened

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_x6fs1IpSDk

            the fanatic in this footage want to slaughter 50,000 innocent Hindus..

            just sad ….

          • sukhpreet says:

            Please take the time to view all the evidence preseneted here:

          • Sher says:

            where? link seems to be missing

          • sukhpreet says:

            Put it in twice, TLH seems to reject it for some reason. I'll try one more time: [ www youtube com/user/udhoke#p/p/BAF27C0D5CA0CB7E/0/UZzipTUqWXU ]
            http://www.youtube.com/user/udhoke#p/p/BAF27C0D5C

          • Sher says:

            once again, too much venom, too much rhetoric here. Please highlight the points this disgusting chauvinist has raised and I would try to get back to you asap (time constraints allowing).

          • sukhpreet says:

            "once again, too much venom, too much rhetoric … disgusting chauvinist"

            Describes you rather well. You don't seem to have the time or inclination to listen to what others have to say, and your agenda appears to be to dish out crap on others.

            Hmmm, disgusting chauvinist, seems to sum you up rather well (you said it).

          • Sher says:

            Sukhpreet jeo, please point out which part of my posts has been 'venomous' or where did i sound like a 'chauvinist'.

            I must admit here, I WAS WRONG in calling Udhoke (and by implication) Bhindranwala what I did. They were/are definitely not chauvinists. my apologies for using a wrong term.

            Before hit-squads are sent to eliminate me for trying to expose that "greatest sikh of the 20 century', i would ask you once again to give evidence in the shape of news articles, court cases, videos, audio recordings, etc. to back your argument.

            yes, i may be disgusting chauvinist without knowing myself. But my friend I would never be a terrorist and a bigot who incessantly provoke his flock to kill, loot, maim people of the other community for none of their faults.
            I would also not allow a semi-literate dogmatist to influence my thinking and my actions…to brainwash me to this extent that i start hating ‘my own people’. I am intelligent enough to not call such a hate-monger a ‘Sant’ in any circumstances.
            Please allow me to call jarnail singh Bhindranwala a cold-blooded murderer who did nothing in his lifetime but spew venom against those who did not follow his brand of intolerant Sikhi.

            Irony is that Bhindranwala believed in Dasam Granth. Till date his seminary Damdami Taksal is doing ‘parkash’ of Dasam Granth along with GGS. As far as I know Dasam Granth is nothing but a pure Hindu granth.
            Ask yourself gurmukho, how you can allow such confused fanatic to be labelled the ‘Greatest Sikh of the 20th century’.
            If you want me to provide evidence to back any point, do let me know as volumes have been written about Bhindran’s single-track extremist ideology which reflects everything except Sikhi as preached by Baba Nanak.

            As far as this supremacist with mule Udhoke is concerned, i can counter each and every point he is raising. please start another thread and we can discuss him with complete patience and rationale.

            Also, i have immense time to read YOUR posts but feel constrained while writing responses so please do let me know where i am wrong.

            PS Sorry to say this, do not 'chicken out' if you fail to find anything wrong in the issues i am raising.

            Thanks

            SHER

          • Sikh_soldier says:

            I gone thru all your views. jst want to ask you all one thing. what if a soldier in army who is always ready for fight with enemy and had faught many battles and some day he will die naturally what would u call him.. a soldier or civilian??

            sitting with all comforts and making blogs are jst easy thing.. even having a jajba for country, faith etc is different thing….if someone dies having jajba for his country. faith etc then it should not matter whether he dies with canes, bullet or tank even he dies naturally.. we should atleast respect their thinking and willingness of freedom. who brought you freedom you are making nonsense discussions for them..

            Guru Fateh

          • Rajinder Singh Virk says:

            You have used the right word non-conformist,keep it up it is very hard for people following a rigid mind set, to even contemplate different interpertation of the same situtation.Bravo.

          • Sher says:

            Thanks Rajinderji, much appreciated. those who follow others blindly are just a part of the herd. i also admire your conviction to state the truth (glorified Hindus). As far as shaheedi(or plain death) of Lala Lajpat Rai is concerned, yes we can agree to disagree.

          • Kapoor says:

            Can you please give me your e-mail address. I loved your knowledge and wisdom about the history of my motherland and would love to learn a thing or two from you. Thanks

        • Rajinder Singh says:

          Sir,
          I got a question. Could it be that your father ran away before the lathi charge. So he is 100% correct that
          "there was no lathi charge on that day at lahore rlwy station". ?

          • Rajinder Singh Virk says:

            Could have been,since i was not present there cannot say with certainity,however the medical reports and other circumstantial/eye witness accounts/records taken collectively paint a very different picture.By the way i do get the subtle taunt in your post for me.

  7. bhai says:

    Same can be asked of you

  8. bhai says:

    Same can be asked of you

  9. sarabjit says:

    babbu mann is telling us the true story we should appreciate him we all shoud know that everthing in history is not true most of the writers write in the side that they like

    • mukesh says:

      jst tell me one thing….. if indian history is false then how do u know that british history is true …. i like babbu maan…. bt it doesnt mean that watever he says is truth…. pakistani history also has a lot of bad things written about india…… then it doesnt mean that watever written in their history is truth….. books are written by human itself then it doesnt mean that human that writes could never write false things…

  10. meet says:

    babbu maan is a great singer we should learn something from him bcoz we r not arrow we should make our directions ourself so that we can find what is right or wrong .at last i want to say that babbu mann u r great pick it up we r with u

    • Sher says:

      Just updating TLH, Babbu Mann's publicist has apologised for his outrageous comments on LLR. BuM may have to do the same when he returns from his overseas tour. has he got some cheap publicity in the process? Absolutely right.

  11. sarabjit says:

    babbu mann is telling us the true story we should appreciate him we all shoud know that everthing in history is not true most of the writers write in the side that they like

  12. meet says:

    babbu maan is a great singer we should learn something from him bcoz we r not arrow we should make our directions ourself so that we can find what is right or wrong .at last i want to say that babbu mann u r great pick it up we r with u

    • Sher says:

      Just updating TLH, Babbu Mann's publicist has apologised for his outrageous comments on LLR. BuM may have to do the same when he returns from his overseas tour. has he got some cheap publicity in the process? Absolutely right.

  13. Guest says:

    Simon Commission eye witness account in Sachi Sakhi by Kapur Singh pages 114-7.

  14. Guest says:

    Simon Commission eye witness account in Sachi Sakhi by Kapur Singh pages 114-7.

  15. Sukhdeep Singh says:

    Doesn't matter how lala lajpat died, remember what he was, a member of vishav Hindu mahasabha, a party wished to divide the peole on base of religion, he was nothing more than Narinder modi with lesser powers, a national shame.

    • Sher says:

      sukhdeep, Please enlighten me by giving some samples of divisive politics of Lala Lajpat Rai.

      of course, a Hindu cannot even think of being associated with any organisation which could be even remotely seen as 'communal' in nature. While Sikhs had Akali dal, Singh sabhas, SGPC and plethora of outrightly communal outfits; a handful of Hindus who joined Hindu Mahasabha must have committed a sin against humanity.

      as far as Muslims of the sub-continent are concerned, well they had (and still have) divine sanction to join political organisation with clear agenda – (Wahabi) Islam above everything. Just research the Muslim leader of secular Congress by the name of Maulana A K Azad and his admiration for Naqashbandi order of Sirhind. Let us know what sort of sentiments Naqashbandi sufi 'saints' had for your Gurus.

      As far as fanatic members of predecessors of Al Qaida like zihadi organisations are concerned, well they were following their book which instruct muslims to kill, rape, loot Kaafirs. To give one sample of Ahmad Sirhindi (1564-1624)'s hatred for kaafirs (inc Shias):

      " After Guru Arjun Dev had been tortured and done to death by Jahangir, he wrote in letter No. 193 that "the execution of the accursed kafir of Gobindwal is an important achievement and is the cause of the great defeat of the Hindus."

      well that is benevolent face of peace and love which was missing from Lala Lajpat Rai's character. Right? go on and search all the libraries in the world and find one line uttered by LLR against Sikhs. I am yet to come across one line he wrote against muslims. but then i may have much limited knowledge as compared to you.

      I would give one sample if u do not mind:

      "Thanks to Guru Gobind Singh, Swami Dayanand, and other reformers, that idea has been exploded and exploded for good. Even born Muhammadans can now bc admitted into Hindu society. " he wrote in one article on 'Untouchability'.

      Now would you please explain why did you call such noble soul a divisive, communal leader?

      See friends, i am just trying to stop the widening chasm b/w Hindus and sikhs. but may be i am just a moron like don quixote :)

  16. Sukhdeep Singh says:

    Doesn’t matter how lala lajpat died, remember what he was, a member of vishav Hindu mahasabha, a party wished to divide the peole on base of religion, he was nothing more than Narinder modi with lesser powers, a national shame.

    • Sher says:

      sukhdeep, Please enlighten me by giving some samples of divisive politics of Lala Lajpat Rai.

      of course, a Hindu cannot even think of being associated with any organisation which could be even remotely seen as ‘communal’ in nature. While Sikhs had Akali dal, Singh sabhas, SGPC and plethora of outrightly communal outfits; a handful of Hindus who joined Hindu Mahasabha must have committed a sin against humanity.

      as far as Muslims of the sub-continent are concerned, well they had (and still have) divine sanction to join political organisation with clear agenda – (Wahabi) Islam above everything. Just research the Muslim leader of secular Congress by the name of Maulana A K Azad and his admiration for Naqashbandi order of Sirhind. Let us know what sort of sentiments Naqashbandi sufi ‘saints’ had for your Gurus.

      As far as fanatic members of predecessors of Al Qaida like zihadi organisations are concerned, well they were following their book which instruct muslims to kill, rape, loot Kaafirs. To give one sample of Ahmad Sirhindi (1564-1624)’s hatred for kaafirs (inc Shias):

      ” After Guru Arjun Dev had been tortured and done to death by Jahangir, he wrote in letter No. 193 that “the execution of the accursed kafir of Gobindwal is an important achievement and is the cause of the great defeat of the Hindus.”

      well that is benevolent face of peace and love which was missing from Lala Lajpat Rai’s character. Right? go on and search all the libraries in the world and find one line uttered by LLR against Sikhs. I am yet to come across one line he wrote against muslims. but then i may have much limited knowledge as compared to you.

      I would give one sample if u do not mind:
      “Thanks to Guru Gobind Singh, Swami Dayanand, and other reformers, that idea has been exploded and exploded for good. Even born Muhammadans can now bc admitted into Hindu society. ” he wrote in one article on ‘Untouchability’.

      Now would you please explain why did you call such noble soul a divisive, communal leader?

      See friends, i am just trying to stop the widening chasm b/w Hindus and sikhs. but may be i am just a moron like don quixote :)

  17. aman says:

    you people are all fooled by babbu maan's words …..lala lajpat rai will be counted as a martyr even if died of cardiac arrest, because he was participating in freedom movementwell known of his health condition..he got himself involved in the movement and died on duty of his motherland

  18. aman says:

    you people are all fooled by babbu maan's words …..lala lajpat rai will be counted as a martyr even if died of cardiac arrest, because he was participating in freedom movementwell known of his health condition..he got himself involved in the movement and died on duty of his motherland

  19. Sukhdeep Singh says:

    Haanji sher ji u r talking abt Hindu parties, there r examples of it in all times of being communal, u know the history of babari maszid? Why it came there….? Hindus have always communal people in them,and one of example is you yourself ,,,, u just called karimul a Muslim .,is there anything wrong for being a Muslim? I am a Sikh and thankful to them… They helped us in hard times…. If there were no Muslim who knows there was Khalsa panth or not? They r never backstabbers….. U know who r?

    • Sher says:

      Sukhdeepji, please elaborate why obscure Hindu Mahasabha is communal and Akali Dal (ruling punjab these days) is not. pls explain why a number of Muslim political parties in India (forget ISLAMIC Republics like Pakistan and bangladesh to name just few in our immediate neighbourhood) can practice outright communalism, bigotry and get away with it. Why SGPC is allowed to run a parallel government in punjab. can u name one such Hindu organisation in spite of the fact that Sikhs are just 3-4 per cent of HINDU POPULATION?

      most importantly WHY JUST ME IS COMMUNAL HERE? why you cannot be called a communal myopic bigot?

      yes i think Karimul is a muslim with an agenda. i am trying to expose his identity and agenda as he insists he is a sikh. just trying to rip his mask off to reveal another zihadi trying to create rift b/w Hindus and sikhs. where did i say something wrong with being a Musllim? yes, i have a problem with ZIHADI muslims. Muslims helped khalsa…. :) can you please elaborate with specific incidents from History and not SGPC gupp factory? yes you are ABSOLUTELY right there would be no khalsa but for Muslims. just one 'small' correction here. Khalsa was created exclusively to fight muslim zabar. and yes please do tell me who are the backstabbers. but please be prepared if i come hard on those whom u may consider sikh/khalsa icons while listing 'backstabbers'.

      Over to you my friend. shooooot!

  20. Sukhdeep Singh says:

    Haanji sher ji u r talking abt Hindu parties, there r examples of it in all times of being communal, u know the history of babari maszid? Why it came there….? Hindus have always communal people in them,and one of example is you yourself ,,,, u just called karimul a Muslim .,is there anything wrong for being a Muslim? I am a Sikh and thankful to them… They helped us in hard times…. If there were no Muslim who knows there was Khalsa panth or not? They r never backstabbers….. U know who r?

    • Sher says:

      Sukhdeepji, please elaborate why obscure Hindu Mahasabha is communal and Akali Dal (ruling punjab these days) is not. pls explain why a number of Muslim political parties in India (forget ISLAMIC Republics like Pakistan and bangladesh to name just few in our immediate neighbourhood) can practice outright communalism, bigotry and get away with it. Why SGPC is allowed to run a parallel government in punjab. can u name one such Hindu organisation in spite of the fact that Sikhs are just 3-4 per cent of HINDU POPULATION?

      most importantly WHY JUST ME IS COMMUNAL HERE? why you cannot be called a communal myopic bigot?

      yes i think Karimul is a muslim with an agenda. i am trying to expose his identity and agenda as he insists he is a sikh. just trying to rip his mask off to reveal another zihadi trying to create rift b/w Hindus and sikhs. where did i say something wrong with being a Musllim? yes, i have a problem with ZIHADI muslims. Muslims helped khalsa…. :) can you please elaborate with specific incidents from History and not SGPC gupp factory? yes you are ABSOLUTELY right there would be no khalsa but for Muslims. just one 'small' correction here. Khalsa was created exclusively to fight muslim zabar. and yes please do tell me who are the backstabbers. but please be prepared if i come hard on those whom u may consider sikh/khalsa icons while listing 'backstabbers'.

      Over to you my friend. shooooot!

  21. Sukhdeep Singh says:

    First SGPC is not running a parallel govt it is a religious body and is to run gurudwaras etc nothing is associated with it like rioting etc, can u give any example of any statement or act which challenged or anticipated the internal matters of other religion?
    Second I have never heard any govt organized killings of minorities in so called neighbouring country…. And sikhs in pak r merely .3-4 %or so there and they have their own psgpc…..
    About vishav hindu mahasabha it was just like today's vhp or rss or shivsena or bjp etc all terrorist organisations if not u tell y?
    Abt muslims helping us the biggest examples is nabi khan and gani khan, when guruji himself have forgave mugals for their deeds who r v or u to hate them, and abt karimul he may b an Hindu with agenda or may b a Sikh? I have no problem with any particular religion….. Y only u ppl have

    • Sher says:

      sukhdeep….where do u get your history from? comic books or from gurudwara pathi? where ever from, u do not seem to have any clue what sikh/khalsa history is about. ghani khan and funny khan may have been two characters from some 19th century qissa, they can not obliterate what muslims have been doing to khalsas and hindus for centuries. you do not want me to list the way zealot muslims have killed sikh gurus and sahibzadas besides Banda bahadar and his infant son or do you? in one of my previous posts i have mentioned naqashbandi SUFI (!!!!) from sirhind who congratulated jahangir over the killing of a Hindu kaafir named Arjun dev. ….

      i was expecting u wud list 'backstabbers' and quote history books where their black-deeds are mentioned. i was expecting u wud give us the 'history of Babri Masjid'. i was expecting u wud tell us how Muslims have helped in the creation of Khalsa but u have turned out to be such a …..let down. what should i say here sukhdeep? just research history mate. try to research the original sources and not comic books.

  22. Gulzar says:

    Yaar ki Desh di Ajadi vaste Laria oh chahe sikh si jan hindu, is na ki farak penda, si to oh Bharat Ma da Lal, Pata nahin asin Hindusani kadon samjhange je asin bharat wasi pehlan baki sab bad diyan gallan ne

    • mukesh says:

      paji tade vrge hindustan ch hai o hi bot hai… jehde apne dharam de bad ch hai te desh de pehla…. rb tuhade vrgi soch mere desh de hr insan nu de dve tan anna hajare nu bhukkha na rehna pve:p

  23. amani says:

    well im with babbu mann oh jo bi khenda hamesha sach hi hunda ….and we all know tht so hip hip hurreh for babbu mann

  24. Sukhdeep Singh says:

    First SGPC is not running a parallel govt it is a religious body and is to run gurudwaras etc nothing is associated with it like rioting etc, can u give any example of any statement or act which challenged or anticipated the internal matters of other religion?
    Second I have never heard any govt organized killings of minorities in so called neighbouring country…. And sikhs in pak r merely .3-4 %or so there and they have their own psgpc…..
    About vishav hindu mahasabha it was just like today’s vhp or rss or shivsena or bjp etc all terrorist organisations if not u tell y?
    Abt muslims helping us the biggest examples is nabi khan and gani khan, when guruji himself have forgave mugals for their deeds who r v or u to hate them, and abt karimul he may b an Hindu with agenda or may b a Sikh? I have no problem with any particular religion….. Y only u ppl have

    • Sher says:

      sukhdeep….where do u get your history from? comic books or from gurudwara pathi? where ever from, u do not seem to have any clue what sikh/khalsa history is about. ghani khan and funny khan may have been two characters from some 19th century qissa, they can not obliterate what muslims have been doing to khalsas and hindus for centuries. you do not want me to list the way zealot muslims have killed sikh gurus and sahibzadas besides Banda bahadar and his infant son or do you? in one of my previous posts i have mentioned naqashbandi SUFI (!!!!) from sirhind who congratulated jahangir over the killing of a Hindu kaafir named Arjun dev. ….

      i was expecting u wud list ‘backstabbers’ and quote history books where their black-deeds are mentioned. i was expecting u wud give us the ‘history of Babri Masjid’. i was expecting u wud tell us how Muslims have helped in the creation of Khalsa but u have turned out to be such a …..let down. what should i say here sukhdeep? just research history mate. try to research the original sources and not comic books.

    • j tu lala lajpat rai ji nai gye c…,tere tera kehra othe mama gya c..,tusi loki bs dharm de naam te lrhde oo..,tere v dade prhdade hindu hi c…,j tere himat hai te ja k tu apne desh lye kush kr..,nale jdo mughl naal guru ji lrhe c oh hindu hi c..,ohna ne eh ni c kya sikhi koi dhram ai..,sikhi hindua cho hi nikli ai..,2 line history to copy kr k tu koi gl ni prove kr skda..,nale tere vrge loka nu loka nu lrhon da shonk hunda..,koi na jdo tere koi grh da lrhai ch mruga odo eh gla da pta chlu put

  25. Gulzar says:

    Yaar ki Desh di Ajadi vaste Laria oh chahe sikh si jan hindu, is na ki farak penda, si to oh Bharat Ma da Lal, Pata nahin asin Hindusani kadon samjhange je asin bharat wasi pehlan baki sab bad diyan gallan ne

  26. amani says:

    well im with babbu mann oh jo bi khenda hamesha sach hi hunda ….and we all know tht so hip hip hurreh for babbu mann

  27. Sukhdeep Singh says:

    I know history..,,. Read many books from gurudwara paathi yea he too…… And u mean we should learn history from people who have no history????? guru Gobind singh helped bahadur shah s/o Aurangzeb ….. And that's after forgiving mugals for their deeds….and why should we ppl ask any Hindu opinion for our relation with other religions we never interfere with yours they WTF is problem with u ppl?????

  28. Sukhdeep Singh says:

    I know history..,,. Read many books from gurudwara paathi yea he too…… And u mean we should learn history from people who have no history????? guru Gobind singh helped bahadur shah s/o Aurangzeb ….. And that’s after forgiving mugals for their deeds….and why should we ppl ask any Hindu opinion for our relation with other religions we never interfere with yours they WTF is problem with u ppl?????

  29. Sukhdeep Singh says:

    17000+innocents killed in June 84, 30000 in nov 84 , 20000 in dec 92, 15000 in feb 2002 no case registerd no justice
    not JUST remembering
    about kanishka RAWs involvement was never ruled out

    • Observer says:

      RAW involvement in Kanishka wasn't ruled out by whom ? Bagri and Malik ? If RAW could have been involved, why is the Canadian PM going to tender an official apology to the Indian PM this weekend ? Oh wait, don't answer that, where is Professor Babbu Mann when you need him ?

    • KDS says:

      < every one should condemn delhi riots innocents but same empathy should also be extended to the victims of terrorist bombs and bullets.>

      You are right But that did not happen and neither that is happening.After 1984 riots HKL bhagat
      by 5 lakh votes. Sajjan kumar and tytler too won and still win elections despite knowing the fact
      that they were main culprits.As Hindu's are majority in all the constinuencies of Delhi it clearly shows How much they care about 1984 riots

      • Observer says:

        Using the same logic, Congress has won the Punjab state elections many times since 1984, does that mean that sikhs in punjab don't care about 1984 either or that they've decided to move on and not hold that against Congress ? Any logic based on the voting pattern in India will fall flat on its face.

        • KDS says:

          State level congress committiies are different.Did people of Punjab ever directly voted for
          Bhagat,tytler or sajjan.If you remember it was Amarinder Singh of Congress who passed the bill that Punjab will not share its water with any other state and Haryana congress was dead against that.Just look at present case of BJP and JDu JDU has no problem with leaders of BJP but Nitish kumar do not want modi to enter bihar because he believe that this will cost him votes of muslims but on the other hand He has no problem with leaders of Bihar BJP .

          The fact is despite knowing that bhagat,tytler and sajjan are responsible for riots The people of Delhi have voted for them

          • Sher says:

            it is NOT about the SL committees KDS it is about the electorate. you are blaming delhi electorate for voting for sajjan & Co but exonerating Punjab voters for voting for the same Congress party which, in your opinion, was responsible for 1984 and of which these three are/were representatives.

            Also, Bhindranwala was the person who was directly responsible for carnage in Punjab and ten of thousands of deaths. he is being eulogized as the 'Greatest Sikh of the Century'!!! He openly incited 'sangat' for massacring of Hindus for getting weapons and 'Bullet' motorcycles.

            Bhindranwala incited the armed mob against Nirankari congregation on baisakhi day in 1978 which led to 18 deaths. We read about ONLY Sikh fatalities but never of Nirankaris who died in the violent attack. WHY?

            scores of Bhindranwala cassettes have nothing but venom for the Hindus. How come you do not find such hatred-spewing person with heaps of evidence against him revolting? You have problems with Sajjan & co but there is not ONE speech or public evidence where any of these three could be seen or heard inciting masses against Sikhs. NOT ONE CREDIBLE EVIDENCE while you can, even today, any day buy anti-Hindu speeches of bhindranwala and others from Punjabi ‘religious’ (!!!) CD shops.

            Even for one minute we believe that Sajjan Kumar was responsible for killing of Sikhs in his constituency, have you seen any Hindu portraying him as a hero? Have you seen one Sajjan Kumar, HKL bhagat, Arjun Dass, etc sticker on the back of a car? Has any hindu ever objected to the Bhindran stickers on cars even outside Punjab? NEVER.

            Babbu Mann being praised for ‘exposing’ Lala Lajpat Rai and for questioning his shaheedi by sikh bigots. Any protests in the streets by Hindus? NONE. What would these myopic sickos would do if a martyr, who happened to be a sikh, is ridiculed by a ‘Hindu’ cheap publicity seeking performer?

            Why this hypocrisy KDS?

          • KDS says:

            And who created Bhindranwale.If he was such a dangerous man why was he allowed to roam freely.Its better if you read history properly
            http://www.unp.co.in/f8/indira-gandhi-and-bhindra

            During the Asiad Games of December 1982, a scare was created by such agent-provocateurs and it was exploited by Congress (I) Government of Haryana. Every Sikh living in Delhi or proceeding to Delhi was humiliated for which there was no need. Most Sikhs would have understood the need for security and agreed to searches and restrictions. But the attitude of Haryana Police was extremely high-handed. Even women and children, old and sick were not spared. Every Sikh was treated, like a suspected terrorist. Some Sikhs had come from America and Canada to show their grandchildren the land of their forefathers. They were sent straight from Delhi Airport to jail. This caused much resentment and bitterness, helped the extremists and hot-heads and made it impossible for the moderates to argue. In fact, every action of Indira Gandhi and her party was calculated to encourage the extremists. What Jagjit Singh Chauhan, Ganga Singh Dhillon and Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale failed to do was achieved by the Haryana Police.

            —————————————————————————————————

            The above is not from sikh site

          • KDS says:

            In October 1983, and February 1984, some innocent Hindus were gunned down. These senseless killings brought equally senseless reaction by Hindus of Haryana. Between 14th and 21st February 1984, on the Grand Trunk Road from Delhi to Ambala, Sikhs were removed from buses and beaten up. Their Keshas were clipped and their turbans burnt. Even women and children were not spared. In Haryana, Sikhs were beaten to death, dragged out of Gurudwaras and lynched. Only on the last day, Haryana Government gave 'shoot at sight' order. It is surprising that on 14th February curfew had already been declared in six major cities of Punjab and 'shoot at sight' order issued to police. Why did the Haryana Government watch the carnage for seven days?

  30. Sukhdeep Singh says:

    17000+innocents killed in June 84, 30000 in nov 84 , 20000 in dec 92, 15000 in feb 2002 no case registerd no justice
    not JUST remembering
    about kanishka RAWs involvement was never ruled out

    • Observer says:

      RAW involvement in Kanishka wasn't ruled out by whom ? Bagri and Malik ? If RAW could have been involved, why is the Canadian PM going to tender an official apology to the Indian PM this weekend ? Oh wait, don't answer that, where is Professor Babbu Mann when you need him ?

    • KDS says:

      < every one should condemn delhi riots innocents but same empathy should also be extended to the victims of terrorist bombs and bullets.>

      You are right But that did not happen and neither that is happening.After 1984 riots HKL bhagat
      by 5 lakh votes. Sajjan kumar and tytler too won and still win elections despite knowing the fact
      that they were main culprits.As Hindu's are majority in all the constinuencies of Delhi it clearly shows How much they care about 1984 riots

      • Observer says:

        Using the same logic, Congress has won the Punjab state elections many times since 1984, does that mean that sikhs in punjab don't care about 1984 either or that they've decided to move on and not hold that against Congress ? Any logic based on the voting pattern in India will fall flat on its face.

        • KDS says:

          State level congress committiies are different.Did people of Punjab ever directly voted for
          Bhagat,tytler or sajjan.If you remember it was Amarinder Singh of Congress who passed the bill that Punjab will not share its water with any other state and Haryana congress was dead against that.Just look at present case of BJP and JDu JDU has no problem with leaders of BJP but Nitish kumar do not want modi to enter bihar because he believe that this will cost him votes of muslims but on the other hand He has no problem with leaders of Bihar BJP .

          The fact is despite knowing that bhagat,tytler and sajjan are responsible for riots The people of Delhi have voted for them

          • Sher says:

            it is NOT about the SL committees KDS it is about the electorate. you are blaming delhi electorate for voting for sajjan & Co but exonerating Punjab voters for voting for the same Congress party which, in your opinion, was responsible for 1984 and of which these three are/were representatives.

            Also, Bhindranwala was the person who was directly responsible for carnage in Punjab and ten of thousands of deaths. he is being eulogized as the 'Greatest Sikh of the Century'!!! He openly incited 'sangat' for massacring of Hindus for getting weapons and 'Bullet' motorcycles.

            Bhindranwala incited the armed mob against Nirankari congregation on baisakhi day in 1978 which led to 18 deaths. We read about ONLY Sikh fatalities but never of Nirankaris who died in the violent attack. WHY?

            scores of Bhindranwala cassettes have nothing but venom for the Hindus. How come you do not find such hatred-spewing person with heaps of evidence against him revolting? You have problems with Sajjan & co but there is not ONE speech or public evidence where any of these three could be seen or heard inciting masses against Sikhs. NOT ONE CREDIBLE EVIDENCE while you can, even today, any day buy anti-Hindu speeches of bhindranwala and others from Punjabi ‘religious’ (!!!) CD shops.

            Even for one minute we believe that Sajjan Kumar was responsible for killing of Sikhs in his constituency, have you seen any Hindu portraying him as a hero? Have you seen one Sajjan Kumar, HKL bhagat, Arjun Dass, etc sticker on the back of a car? Has any hindu ever objected to the Bhindran stickers on cars even outside Punjab? NEVER.

            Babbu Mann being praised for ‘exposing’ Lala Lajpat Rai and for questioning his shaheedi by sikh bigots. Any protests in the streets by Hindus? NONE. What would these myopic sickos would do if a martyr, who happened to be a sikh, is ridiculed by a ‘Hindu’ cheap publicity seeking performer?

            Why this hypocrisy KDS?

          • KDS says:

            In October 1983, and February 1984, some innocent Hindus were gunned down. These senseless killings brought equally senseless reaction by Hindus of Haryana. Between 14th and 21st February 1984, on the Grand Trunk Road from Delhi to Ambala, Sikhs were removed from buses and beaten up. Their Keshas were clipped and their turbans burnt. Even women and children were not spared. In Haryana, Sikhs were beaten to death, dragged out of Gurudwaras and lynched. Only on the last day, Haryana Government gave 'shoot at sight' order. It is surprising that on 14th February curfew had already been declared in six major cities of Punjab and 'shoot at sight' order issued to police. Why did the Haryana Government watch the carnage for seven days?

          • KDS says:

            And who created Bhindranwale.If he was such a dangerous man why was he allowed to roam freely.Its better if you read history properly
            http://www.unp.co.in/f8/indira-gandhi-and-bhindra

            During the Asiad Games of December 1982, a scare was created by such agent-provocateurs and it was exploited by Congress (I) Government of Haryana. Every Sikh living in Delhi or proceeding to Delhi was humiliated for which there was no need. Most Sikhs would have understood the need for security and agreed to searches and restrictions. But the attitude of Haryana Police was extremely high-handed. Even women and children, old and sick were not spared. Every Sikh was treated, like a suspected terrorist. Some Sikhs had come from America and Canada to show their grandchildren the land of their forefathers. They were sent straight from Delhi Airport to jail. This caused much resentment and bitterness, helped the extremists and hot-heads and made it impossible for the moderates to argue. In fact, every action of Indira Gandhi and her party was calculated to encourage the extremists. What Jagjit Singh Chauhan, Ganga Singh Dhillon and Jarnail Singh Bhindranwale failed to do was achieved by the Haryana Police.

            —————————————————————————————————

            The above is not from sikh site

  31. Rajinder Singh Virk says:

    Neither raw or bagri/malik and others were responsible for it.The kanishka story is so simple,that if it ever came out it will,reveal the ineptitude of the canadian investigators,the false bravado of sikh terrorists and the greed/corruption of air-india.

  32. Rajinder Singh Virk says:

    Neither raw or bagri/malik and others were responsible for it.The kanishka story is so simple,that if it ever came out it will,reveal the ineptitude of the canadian investigators,the false bravado of sikh terrorists and the greed/corruption of air-india.

  33. sukhjeet khalsa says:

    eh kanjar nu koi daang nhi wjji c.eh ta tara singh ne sikha de naam te lut k lyande rupaya de hisab den di gall sun k is di ma mar gyi c.vadde ajadi de soorme

  34. sukhjeet khalsa says:

    eh kanjar nu koi daang nhi wjji c.eh ta tara singh ne sikha de naam te lut k lyande rupaya de hisab den di gall sun k is di ma mar gyi c.vadde ajadi de soorme

  35. SDhal says:

    This was the last straw… Goodbye Langar Hall. Ive seen this progression from a blog about sikh issues in the diaspora, and at home- to straight Anti- India everything.

    I'm not a nationalist, and quite frankly could care less about involving my time and mental power into issues of nationalism/ ego. Actually I pretty much have distain for every nation state.

    But the langar hall is another entity in the youth's mind today that promotes the same prejudice that we fell victim to as sikhs.

    This post is not inregards to Lala Lajpat Rai ( I find the idiotic assumption by Babbu Mann and the author of this blog- that your contribution to gaining independence from tyranny should be based directly on how "bad-ass" you die. Even if he did die of a heart attack.. your point is…") but this post is inregards to an overwhelming identity of this blog to promote its own settle prejudice.

    This is know as the "progressive sikh blog". HA!!! There is nothing progressive about hate mongering, no matter how subtle it is.

    Goodbye.

  36. SDhal says:

    This was the last straw… Goodbye Langar Hall. Ive seen this progression from a blog about sikh issues in the diaspora, and at home- to straight Anti- India everything.

    I'm not a nationalist, and quite frankly could care less about involving my time and mental power into issues of nationalism/ ego. Actually I pretty much have distain for every nation state.

    But the langar hall is another entity in the youth's mind today that promotes the same prejudice that we fell victim to as sikhs.

    This post is not inregards to Lala Lajpat Rai ( I find the idiotic assumption by Babbu Mann and the author of this blog- that your contribution to gaining independence from tyranny should be based directly on how "bad-ass" you die. Even if he did die of a heart attack.. your point is…") but this post is inregards to an overwhelming identity of this blog to promote its own settle prejudice.

    This is know as the "progressive sikh blog". HA!!! There is nothing progressive about hate mongering, no matter how subtle it is.

    Goodbye.

  37. Sikh_soldier says:

    I always been admirer of Babbu mann but it does not mean i should support him for all his actions/lyrics and foolish commentries on live shows bcoz i got my own conscience and babbu maan showed that he dont have his own coscience if any one gives him any book without doing any search on the facts he will sing in his live conserts (recently he mentioned in his apology that he did nt write any lines he jst read these from some book published by SGPC – Sachi Sakhi and sung in his live consert) WHAT A JOKE rather i say a fool.' Babbu Mann' no one can become intellectual reading a single book as its a very old say A little knowledge is dangerous.

  38. Sikh_soldier says:

    At the end i wouldl say i salute every individual who even took a single step to contribute for India's independence and Lala Laj Pat Rai had a very important role as he took stand agaist simon commission. So i request all readers and my fellows to use your own brains as we dont need Babbu Mann's AUTHENTICATION for our Martyrs. If we will not react this time next time he will comment on other Freedom fighters based on his little knowledge.

    no doubt I appreciate his few writings.. but i dont think so with his current attitude he will go for long..

    Guru Fateh…

    • Sher says:

      @Sikh_soldier Agree with every word you have written. Lala Lajpat Rai would not need a certificate from anyone inc Babbu Mann. BuM should leave history alone. commenting on history is very diff from writing tukkbandi (Chaarrh gayee oye charratte naal) as it requires painstaking research. Babbu should at least UNCONTROVERSIAL dead heroes alone. once again, good on you Sikh_soldier.

  39. Sikh_soldier says:

    I always been admirer of Babbu mann but it does not mean i should support him for all his actions/lyrics and foolish commentries on live shows bcoz i got my own conscience and babbu maan showed that he dont have his own coscience if any one gives him any book without doing any search on the facts he will sing in his live conserts (recently he mentioned in his apology that he did nt write any lines he jst read these from some book published by SGPC – Sachi Sakhi and sung in his live consert) WHAT A JOKE rather i say a fool.' Babbu Mann' no one can become intellectual reading a single book as its a very old say A little knowledge is dangerous.

  40. Sikh_soldier says:

    At the end i wouldl say i salute every individual who even took a single step to contribute for India's independence and Lala Laj Pat Rai had a very important role as he took stand agaist simon commission. So i request all readers and my fellows to use your own brains as we dont need Babbu Mann's AUTHENTICATION for our Martyrs. If we will not react this time next time he will comment on other Freedom fighters based on his little knowledge.

    no doubt I appreciate his few writings.. but i dont think so with his current attitude he will go for long..

    Guru Fateh…

    • Sher says:

      @Sikh_soldier Agree with every word you have written. Lala Lajpat Rai would not need a certificate from anyone inc Babbu Mann. BuM should leave history alone. commenting on history is very diff from writing tukkbandi (Chaarrh gayee oye charratte naal) as it requires painstaking research. Babbu should at least UNCONTROVERSIAL dead heroes alone. once again, good on you Sikh_soldier.

  41. ajaya says:

    babbu man is rite thts what happend on tht day i was thr lala got hart atack and he fanted and then we took himm to hospital every one strt saying he got lathe charge i sed them no but thtr wer few mans those hum me down wht can i say doctors sed its heart attack yarr

  42. ajaya says:

    babbu man is rite thts what happend on tht day i was thr lala got hart atack and he fanted and then we took himm to hospital every one strt saying he got lathe charge i sed them no but thtr wer few mans those hum me down wht can i say doctors sed its heart attack yarr

  43. amandeep says:

    Hi everyone, first of all, I must admit that I do not have much knowledge about history. But by listening all this, I must say that whatever was the cause of Lala Lajpat Rai's death, he was there with the purpose to fight for his country. And mind it, he was not given any money by someone to be there. It was his wish to participate.

  44. aman says:

    I have a question for you all….anyone of u can tell when someone gets heart attack, I mean, is there any specific date or time? If not, then this is what heppened to Lal Lajpat rai, His purpose was to fight for his country and while performing his duty, his body left him supportless and he got heart attack. So, what matters? His determination or failure of his body part?
    And, I personally admit that I really do not have courage to die for my country, there are really less people like him and we should respect it. If one book says the truth and what about those 1000 books which have different story? We accept as truth what entertain us more. And it was Shaheed Bhagat Singh Ji who decided to take revenge. A Man with beard and moustaches as commented by Babbu Mann for Lala Lajpat Rai?

    Is this really necessary to have beard and moustaches to be a real courgeaous man?

    • Sher says:

      @aman/amandeep

      Always nice to read some sane comments.

      As far as beard and moustaches question is concerned, the answer in my opinion would be an emphatic NO.

      Two other bravehearts were also hanged with Shaheed Bhagat Singh. We do not hear much about them as they belonged to a WRONG faith Hinduism. Sukhdev (a Ludhiana native) and Rajguru (Maratha) did not have any moustaches and beard (as in Khalsa swaroop). Also, what Baboon Mann would never tell us is the fact that Bhagat Singh was an atheist and he died as an atheist. he in fact wrote a book "Why I am an atheist" so whatever this populist baboon is saying is rubbish.

      Sher

  45. amandeep says:

    Hi everyone, first of all, I must admit that I do not have much knowledge about history. But by listening all this, I must say that whatever was the cause of Lala Lajpat Rai's death, he was there with the purpose to fight for his country. And mind it, he was not given any money by someone to be there. It was his wish to participate.

  46. aman says:

    I have a question for you all….anyone of u can tell when someone gets heart attack, I mean, is there any specific date or time? If not, then this is what heppened to Lal Lajpat rai, His purpose was to fight for his country and while performing his duty, his body left him supportless and he got heart attack. So, what matters? His determination or failure of his body part?
    And, I personally admit that I really do not have courage to die for my country, there are really less people like him and we should respect it. If one book says the truth and what about those 1000 books which have different story? We accept as truth what entertain us more. And it was Shaheed Bhagat Singh Ji who decided to take revenge. A Man with beard and moustaches as commented by Babbu Mann for Lala Lajpat Rai?

    Is this really necessary to have beard and moustaches to be a real courgeaous man?

    • Sher says:

      @aman/amandeep

      Always nice to read some sane comments.

      As far as beard and moustaches question is concerned, the answer in my opinion would be an emphatic NO.

      Two other bravehearts were also hanged with Shaheed Bhagat Singh. We do not hear much about them as they belonged to a WRONG faith Hinduism. Sukhdev (a Ludhiana native) and Rajguru (Maratha) did not have any moustaches and beard (as in Khalsa swaroop). Also, what Baboon Mann would never tell us is the fact that Bhagat Singh was an atheist and he died as an atheist. he in fact wrote a book "Why I am an atheist" so whatever this populist baboon is saying is rubbish.

      Sher

  47. Preet Mavi says:

    sher i think u r only a student…..not a sikh…..if its true..then i can say ur statements r little true…..coz u can understand sum things without having jazzbaa abt that….and about lala g………he was a fake politician……nothing else….everything is going against him….not only the reason of his death but many more things r saying that he was fake,,,,..witness-=sardar kapoor singh,,,,policeman named scott…and my family member[my grandfather]

  48. voiceofpunjab says:

    lALA LAJPAT RAY was father of modern Punjab.He was founder of Natnal college Lhore,DAV,PUNJAB National bank,AITCUI,THE TRUEBUNE

  49. Doux reseach!Thank you.Do you mind if I try to ask you a thing?Is the blog established with wordpress blogs?Greatly obliged!

  50. major singh says:

    religion is created by man not by god, so all the human beings are one and all and equal ,only the one of sort sighted brain say such things. religions are subject to change but not the humanity.nirankaris ,radhaswami,ram rahim are the originally sikhs and sikhs are originaly hindus, and hindus are originally aryans and they were having shantoism, judaism and confusciousism religions so better dont do cruelity towards humanity on the name of religion
    lets all become first human being then rest of every thing
    or of any religion

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