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	<title>Comments on: Revisiting Pashaura Singh and Punjabi and Sikh Studies</title>
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		<title>By: SIKHOLARS: First Sikh Graduate Student Conference &#124; The Langar Hall</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/revisiting-pashaura-singh-and-punjabi-and-sikh-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-24148</link>
		<dc:creator>SIKHOLARS: First Sikh Graduate Student Conference &#124; The Langar Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Sep 2009 10:34:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=599#comment-24148</guid>
		<description>[...] Ditt Singh and Sardar Kapoor Singh with many in between.  Although some academics have been seen as controversial in the community, a confident community celebrates academic conferences that provide a valuable [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Ditt Singh and Sardar Kapoor Singh with many in between.  Although some academics have been seen as controversial in the community, a confident community celebrates academic conferences that provide a valuable [...]</p>
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		<title>By: SikhCentre</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/revisiting-pashaura-singh-and-punjabi-and-sikh-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-8621</link>
		<dc:creator>SikhCentre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 05:56:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=599#comment-8621</guid>
		<description>I came to this article as my blog (http://sikhcentre.wordpress.com) was receiving hits from here. It seems that most of the comments have been responded to, except the last few.

Regarding &quot;Singh&quot; and &quot;Jagiasoo&quot; -- Firstly, I am no supporter of agitations and &quot;nareybaaji&quot;. Having said that, I think you may not be aware of the full picture concerning Dr McLeod and his students. One fact that might be relevant here is that the first critique of Dr McLeod&#039;s work (published in 1968) was published sometime in mid-1970s (I am unable to recall the exact year off-hand, but the info should be available on my blog). Dr McLeod chose to not respond to the questions raised by the reviewer of his work (Daljeet Singh, who died in 1994). After that everytime McLeod published a book, there were reviews, which were published in different university journals. But Dr McLeod, in a very unacademic way, chose to simply ignore criticism of his methodology, his &quot;pick &amp; choose&quot; way of quoting sources conveniently supporting his unsubstantiated statements, and in many cases patently false statements -- for instance he suggested that Guru Nanak never left Punjab on the basis that some place names which contemporary accounts say he visited, may also be found in Punjab. So he claimed that showed Guru Nanak did not journey outside Punjab.
At best, Dr McLeod&#039;s work may be understood in terms of Dan Brown&#039;s &quot;Da Vinci Code&quot; -- Dan Brown picks and chooses his historical sources (in his case gnostics accounts of Jesus&#039; life and teachings) and spins a tall tale. To understand the parallel, please follow this link:
http://www.spotlights.org/Gospels1.htm
 
I hope this helps.
Regards,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I came to this article as my blog (<a href="http://sikhcentre.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow">http://sikhcentre.wordpress.com</a>) was receiving hits from here. It seems that most of the comments have been responded to, except the last few.</p>
<p>Regarding &#8220;Singh&#8221; and &#8220;Jagiasoo&#8221; &#8212; Firstly, I am no supporter of agitations and &#8220;nareybaaji&#8221;. Having said that, I think you may not be aware of the full picture concerning Dr McLeod and his students. One fact that might be relevant here is that the first critique of Dr McLeod&#8217;s work (published in 1968) was published sometime in mid-1970s (I am unable to recall the exact year off-hand, but the info should be available on my blog). Dr McLeod chose to not respond to the questions raised by the reviewer of his work (Daljeet Singh, who died in 1994). After that everytime McLeod published a book, there were reviews, which were published in different university journals. But Dr McLeod, in a very unacademic way, chose to simply ignore criticism of his methodology, his &#8220;pick &amp; choose&#8221; way of quoting sources conveniently supporting his unsubstantiated statements, and in many cases patently false statements &#8212; for instance he suggested that Guru Nanak never left Punjab on the basis that some place names which contemporary accounts say he visited, may also be found in Punjab. So he claimed that showed Guru Nanak did not journey outside Punjab.<br />
At best, Dr McLeod&#8217;s work may be understood in terms of Dan Brown&#8217;s &#8220;Da Vinci Code&#8221; &#8212; Dan Brown picks and chooses his historical sources (in his case gnostics accounts of Jesus&#8217; life and teachings) and spins a tall tale. To understand the parallel, please follow this link:<br />
<a href="http://www.spotlights.org/Gospels1.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.spotlights.org/Gospels1.htm</a></p>
<p>I hope this helps.<br />
Regards,</p>
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		<title>By: Jagiasoo</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/revisiting-pashaura-singh-and-punjabi-and-sikh-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-7677</link>
		<dc:creator>Jagiasoo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Oct 2008 13:41:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=599#comment-7677</guid>
		<description>Critics of Pishoura Singh and other Hew Mcleodians to me appear to claim to be surgeons whose argument is that in order to be a good physician one has to be a patient. Or to be able to be a judge one should be a practicing criminal.

For me a good researcher on a religious trdaditon is the one who is adept in Scientific Method where subjective allegiance to the tradition is sometimes a distraction and even a disqualification. 

If someone honestly feels that there is some flaw in the arguments or the facts brought out by a researcher he/she should in all honesty should invest time and effort to bring forward these in a civilised way rather than mere polemics or gathering a horde of stormtroopers. I am confident that the persons being targetted would humbly accept the new arguments for enriching the study.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Critics of Pishoura Singh and other Hew Mcleodians to me appear to claim to be surgeons whose argument is that in order to be a good physician one has to be a patient. Or to be able to be a judge one should be a practicing criminal.</p>
<p>For me a good researcher on a religious trdaditon is the one who is adept in Scientific Method where subjective allegiance to the tradition is sometimes a distraction and even a disqualification. </p>
<p>If someone honestly feels that there is some flaw in the arguments or the facts brought out by a researcher he/she should in all honesty should invest time and effort to bring forward these in a civilised way rather than mere polemics or gathering a horde of stormtroopers. I am confident that the persons being targetted would humbly accept the new arguments for enriching the study.</p>
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		<title>By: singh</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/revisiting-pashaura-singh-and-punjabi-and-sikh-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-7272</link>
		<dc:creator>singh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 05:38:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=599#comment-7272</guid>
		<description>In My opinion Pashaura singh is a much better sikh and human being than some who had arranged this stupid show against him.

Some people have double standards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In My opinion Pashaura singh is a much better sikh and human being than some who had arranged this stupid show against him.</p>
<p>Some people have double standards.</p>
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		<title>By: Home Deepu</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/revisiting-pashaura-singh-and-punjabi-and-sikh-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-7264</link>
		<dc:creator>Home Deepu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 04:17:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=599#comment-7264</guid>
		<description>Just wondering, is the supposed blasphemy of academics a substantive threat to our community? Is Pashaura Singh threatening the well-being of the next generation of SIkhs and Punjabis?

 I hope the people who are getting in buses to protest the terrible outrage that is Pashaura Singh&#039;s academic career also pack rallies to voice their objection to...
- infanticide in Punjab and the resulting gender gap that is sociological suicide by our people
- alcoholism and drug abuse in our diaspora and homeland communities
- the ever-dwindling water table in Punjab, the subsequent threat of land salinization
- Punjab&#039;s impending ecological-economical catastrophe (see previous)
- domestic violence in our homes
- the criminal activity being passed along as &quot;government&quot; in our homeland (can you start an NGO or buy a plot of land to live on in Punjab without stuffing the coffers of the thugs who run the place?)
- the mafia rule that the &quot;Akali Dal&quot; is perpetrating in the name of the Sikh panth

If we want to get outraged let&#039;s get outraged.  Let&#039;s just direct our anger at the stuff that really matters, for God&#039;s sake.  

To paraphrase the great Punjabi Poet Surjit Patar: there is much injustice yet to fight.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just wondering, is the supposed blasphemy of academics a substantive threat to our community? Is Pashaura Singh threatening the well-being of the next generation of SIkhs and Punjabis?</p>
<p> I hope the people who are getting in buses to protest the terrible outrage that is Pashaura Singh&#8217;s academic career also pack rallies to voice their objection to&#8230;<br />
- infanticide in Punjab and the resulting gender gap that is sociological suicide by our people<br />
- alcoholism and drug abuse in our diaspora and homeland communities<br />
- the ever-dwindling water table in Punjab, the subsequent threat of land salinization<br />
- Punjab&#8217;s impending ecological-economical catastrophe (see previous)<br />
- domestic violence in our homes<br />
- the criminal activity being passed along as &#8220;government&#8221; in our homeland (can you start an NGO or buy a plot of land to live on in Punjab without stuffing the coffers of the thugs who run the place?)<br />
- the mafia rule that the &#8220;Akali Dal&#8221; is perpetrating in the name of the Sikh panth</p>
<p>If we want to get outraged let&#8217;s get outraged.  Let&#8217;s just direct our anger at the stuff that really matters, for God&#8217;s sake.  </p>
<p>To paraphrase the great Punjabi Poet Surjit Patar: there is much injustice yet to fight.</p>
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		<title>By: Home Deepu</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/revisiting-pashaura-singh-and-punjabi-and-sikh-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-7262</link>
		<dc:creator>Home Deepu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Oct 2008 02:46:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=599#comment-7262</guid>
		<description>Friends, If you think Sikh Studies is a monolithic field, you need to do some (re)reading.  Sikh Studies factions are far more stratified than this discussion is letting on, even amongst the &quot;usual suspects&quot; (Mann, Pashaura, McLeod, Oberoi, etc.)  There are lineages, but there lots of divergences.

Second, &quot;the cycle&quot; DOES NOT &quot;repeat itself&quot; when a student of one scholar becomes a scholar in her own right.  There may be overlap of methodology, but there is so much divergence between scholars from generation to generation.  Hang out with grad students, sometime (if you&#039;re masochistic) and listen to them complain about their advisors.

Third: this is a slow process.  have some patience with it.  It will take 25 years to see a new wave of good scholarship come out, but I guarantee you, that scholarship will be written by scholars influenced by (if not trained by) the people you are today so demonizing.

In the meantime, if you have some real guts, quit your day jobs and get in the field yourself.  And please don&#039;t think jingoism and threats of violence make us look all that good as a community.  If you really want to hurt the panth, follow the rest of the mob.  If you want to help it, embody the etymology of the word &quot;Sikh&quot;.



... Post script: argue the points on their actual merits.  It may take some self education.  ASK: Why is MS 1245 an unreliable document?  What is its textual relationship to the Kartarpur Pothi?  Who are the scholars who have attempted to date the Janam-Sakhis, and what are the diiferent opinions of that dating?  What does Pashaura really mean when he says &quot;editing&quot;?  Where do Mann and Pashaura substantly diverge on the historiography of Sikh scriptural development?  What is Oberoi&#039;s central thesis and what evidence does he use to make his point?  Is his lining up of theorists (Ortner, Foucault, Said, and Benjamin) coherent?
... if you&#039;re not educating yourself on the real issues, but still participating in these debates, you&#039;re just pointing and shouting... from a distance, you are making us all look very bad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Friends, If you think Sikh Studies is a monolithic field, you need to do some (re)reading.  Sikh Studies factions are far more stratified than this discussion is letting on, even amongst the &#8220;usual suspects&#8221; (Mann, Pashaura, McLeod, Oberoi, etc.)  There are lineages, but there lots of divergences.</p>
<p>Second, &#8220;the cycle&#8221; DOES NOT &#8220;repeat itself&#8221; when a student of one scholar becomes a scholar in her own right.  There may be overlap of methodology, but there is so much divergence between scholars from generation to generation.  Hang out with grad students, sometime (if you&#8217;re masochistic) and listen to them complain about their advisors.</p>
<p>Third: this is a slow process.  have some patience with it.  It will take 25 years to see a new wave of good scholarship come out, but I guarantee you, that scholarship will be written by scholars influenced by (if not trained by) the people you are today so demonizing.</p>
<p>In the meantime, if you have some real guts, quit your day jobs and get in the field yourself.  And please don&#8217;t think jingoism and threats of violence make us look all that good as a community.  If you really want to hurt the panth, follow the rest of the mob.  If you want to help it, embody the etymology of the word &#8220;Sikh&#8221;.</p>
<p>&#8230; Post script: argue the points on their actual merits.  It may take some self education.  ASK: Why is MS 1245 an unreliable document?  What is its textual relationship to the Kartarpur Pothi?  Who are the scholars who have attempted to date the Janam-Sakhis, and what are the diiferent opinions of that dating?  What does Pashaura really mean when he says &#8220;editing&#8221;?  Where do Mann and Pashaura substantly diverge on the historiography of Sikh scriptural development?  What is Oberoi&#8217;s central thesis and what evidence does he use to make his point?  Is his lining up of theorists (Ortner, Foucault, Said, and Benjamin) coherent?<br />
&#8230; if you&#8217;re not educating yourself on the real issues, but still participating in these debates, you&#8217;re just pointing and shouting&#8230; from a distance, you are making us all look very bad.</p>
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		<title>By: Barbara Ratner</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/revisiting-pashaura-singh-and-punjabi-and-sikh-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-6771</link>
		<dc:creator>Barbara Ratner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 12 Oct 2008 10:53:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=599#comment-6771</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;You did not really address my key point about how the field of Sikh Studies is being made unattractive and will fail to attract fresh talent given the constant intimidation and harassment of those who daily work in this specialisation.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Satinder, if this is your key point the answer should not come from me but you should have had a look at the whole situation to find the answer. I have been associated with research all my life and I have seen the kind of cabalistic control being exercised over Sikh Studies in other fields as well. The only difference has been that this kind of control never lasted more than a few years and never extended beyond one institution.
In case of Sikh Studies, it is astonishing how a cabal could extend its control over the institutions of entire Western world wherever Sikh Studies were sought to be established.
My interest in this cabalistic control began in December 2003 when a conference was organised in University of Otago by this group. What struck me was an utter lack of debate. To borrow the use of a term from Dr McLeod himself - all the paper presenters sounded more like hagiographers (paying homage to Dr McLeod) than scholars.
That my friend is the tragedy - your answer lies in trying to find a difference of opinion amongst this cabal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>You did not really address my key point about how the field of Sikh Studies is being made unattractive and will fail to attract fresh talent given the constant intimidation and harassment of those who daily work in this specialisation.</p></blockquote>
<p>Satinder, if this is your key point the answer should not come from me but you should have had a look at the whole situation to find the answer. I have been associated with research all my life and I have seen the kind of cabalistic control being exercised over Sikh Studies in other fields as well. The only difference has been that this kind of control never lasted more than a few years and never extended beyond one institution.<br />
In case of Sikh Studies, it is astonishing how a cabal could extend its control over the institutions of entire Western world wherever Sikh Studies were sought to be established.<br />
My interest in this cabalistic control began in December 2003 when a conference was organised in University of Otago by this group. What struck me was an utter lack of debate. To borrow the use of a term from Dr McLeod himself &#8211; all the paper presenters sounded more like hagiographers (paying homage to Dr McLeod) than scholars.<br />
That my friend is the tragedy &#8211; your answer lies in trying to find a difference of opinion amongst this cabal.</p>
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		<title>By: Mohinder Singh Bains</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/revisiting-pashaura-singh-and-punjabi-and-sikh-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-6732</link>
		<dc:creator>Mohinder Singh Bains</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Oct 2008 19:43:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=599#comment-6732</guid>
		<description>I have personaly known Bhai Pashaura Singh since mid 1980s, when he was doing Masters in Religious studies at the University of Calgary, Alberta, Canada; and he was also the Granthy at the Sikh Society Gurdwara Sahib in Calgary.  He had great background in relgious studies from Punjabi University, Patiala,wherefrom he had Masters in Sikh Studies with distinction of a Gold Medal. He also had teaching experience at Gur Harkrishan Khalsa School, New Delhi prior to his immigration to Canada in early 80s. Eventually he earned a Ph.D. from the University of Toronto, and his Ph.D. thesis was challenged by some Sikh Scholars.  While at Calgary, he provided great leadership to the Sikh youth, and religious service to the congregation. As far as I remember, his weekly lecturers at the congregation were enthrilling, very well prepared and delivered. The whole community had nothing but great appreciation for his service to the Sikh Community.  That said, whatever, the differences with other scholars at the Akal Takhat, and SGPC, those should be sorted out with SAMBAD, scholarly discussions, and an atmosphere of usual Sikh brotherly atmosphere of mutual respect and greater understanding. Dr.Singh has a life time dedication to Sikh cause, and natural apptitude for learning and research as a true sikh, which means a disciple or learner. He had the previledge of learning from great scholars such as Dr. Tarn Singh and others at the Punjabi University, Patiala.  I have no hesitation in giving Dr. Singh due respect and position in the worldwide Sikh Community, failing which any future sikh scholars will be afraid to do reasearch.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have personaly known Bhai Pashaura Singh since mid 1980s, when he was doing Masters in Religious studies at the University of Calgary, Alberta, Canada; and he was also the Granthy at the Sikh Society Gurdwara Sahib in Calgary.  He had great background in relgious studies from Punjabi University, Patiala,wherefrom he had Masters in Sikh Studies with distinction of a Gold Medal. He also had teaching experience at Gur Harkrishan Khalsa School, New Delhi prior to his immigration to Canada in early 80s. Eventually he earned a Ph.D. from the University of Toronto, and his Ph.D. thesis was challenged by some Sikh Scholars.  While at Calgary, he provided great leadership to the Sikh youth, and religious service to the congregation. As far as I remember, his weekly lecturers at the congregation were enthrilling, very well prepared and delivered. The whole community had nothing but great appreciation for his service to the Sikh Community.  That said, whatever, the differences with other scholars at the Akal Takhat, and SGPC, those should be sorted out with SAMBAD, scholarly discussions, and an atmosphere of usual Sikh brotherly atmosphere of mutual respect and greater understanding. Dr.Singh has a life time dedication to Sikh cause, and natural apptitude for learning and research as a true sikh, which means a disciple or learner. He had the previledge of learning from great scholars such as Dr. Tarn Singh and others at the Punjabi University, Patiala.  I have no hesitation in giving Dr. Singh due respect and position in the worldwide Sikh Community, failing which any future sikh scholars will be afraid to do reasearch.</p>
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		<title>By: P.Singh</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/revisiting-pashaura-singh-and-punjabi-and-sikh-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-6614</link>
		<dc:creator>P.Singh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 23:04:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=599#comment-6614</guid>
		<description>Jodha - I don&#039;t believe I&#039;ve ever had anything dedicated to me before - thank you sir.

Prem,

I&#039;m glad you said &quot;some Sikhs&quot; would rather hysterically demonize and use mob rule; in such matters, and in my experience, these Sikhs are the minority.

Many of the scholars in question have been academically challenged on the works they have produced, and have refused or been unable to address the critisisms put forth. The Sikh community, in general, is fully within its rights to challenge the positions put forward by these scholars. The inability of these scholars to address these questions, and their nonchalant dismissal of anything critical of their works, shows an outright lack of academic integrity. 

These scholars have failed to engage in academic debate, and have almost wholly refused to change their flawed positions. If continued pressure against such scholars is termed &quot;harrassment&quot;, then bravo to such harrassment. 

I would much rather that there be no such scholars in Sikh studies, than scholars holding (and teaching) flawed views, unable to address academic criticism, and lacking the integrity to engage in debate.

And this being said, without taking into consideration the nefarious politics involved in the appointment of some of these scholars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jodha &#8211; I don&#8217;t believe I&#8217;ve ever had anything dedicated to me before &#8211; thank you sir.</p>
<p>Prem,</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad you said &#8220;some Sikhs&#8221; would rather hysterically demonize and use mob rule; in such matters, and in my experience, these Sikhs are the minority.</p>
<p>Many of the scholars in question have been academically challenged on the works they have produced, and have refused or been unable to address the critisisms put forth. The Sikh community, in general, is fully within its rights to challenge the positions put forward by these scholars. The inability of these scholars to address these questions, and their nonchalant dismissal of anything critical of their works, shows an outright lack of academic integrity. </p>
<p>These scholars have failed to engage in academic debate, and have almost wholly refused to change their flawed positions. If continued pressure against such scholars is termed &#8220;harrassment&#8221;, then bravo to such harrassment. </p>
<p>I would much rather that there be no such scholars in Sikh studies, than scholars holding (and teaching) flawed views, unable to address academic criticism, and lacking the integrity to engage in debate.</p>
<p>And this being said, without taking into consideration the nefarious politics involved in the appointment of some of these scholars.</p>
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		<title>By: Prem</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/revisiting-pashaura-singh-and-punjabi-and-sikh-studies/comment-page-1/#comment-6606</link>
		<dc:creator>Prem</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:55:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=599#comment-6606</guid>
		<description>Satinder asks a very pertinent question. When Sikh studies become synonymous with harassment, demonisation, and death threats, who will go into the field? The whole thing is just a demonstration of how unprepared for rational debate and discussion some Sikhs are, they would rather hysterically demonise and use mob rule than engage in rational discussion of issues.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Satinder asks a very pertinent question. When Sikh studies become synonymous with harassment, demonisation, and death threats, who will go into the field? The whole thing is just a demonstration of how unprepared for rational debate and discussion some Sikhs are, they would rather hysterically demonise and use mob rule than engage in rational discussion of issues.</p>
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