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	<title>Comments on: Recasting Gender for Sikh Women</title>
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		<title>By: The Langar Hall &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Sikh Women At The Bristol Gurdwara: “We&#8217;re Not Going Anywhere”</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/recasting-gender-for-sikh-women/comment-page-1/#comment-3793</link>
		<dc:creator>The Langar Hall &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Sikh Women At The Bristol Gurdwara: “We&#8217;re Not Going Anywhere”</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Aug 2008 07:11:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=360#comment-3793</guid>
		<description>[...] a recent post, Camille asked important questions around growing Sikh female leadership/representation, rather than just “managing” it. At the [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] a recent post, Camille asked important questions around growing Sikh female leadership/representation, rather than just “managing” it. At the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: J.T. Singh</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/recasting-gender-for-sikh-women/comment-page-1/#comment-3569</link>
		<dc:creator>J.T. Singh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:39:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=360#comment-3569</guid>
		<description>First off, thanks Camille for writing a great article.  I was initially also a bit tripped out by the wording of that sentence that Prabhu Singh had mentioned, but your comments made it clear.

There is one thing though.  You mention &quot;I absolutely agree that for some Sikh women the dastaar is a deeply empowering decision and experience, and like you, I agree that this is a personal decision that varies by the woman.&quot;

See, this is something I&#039;ve been wondering for a while.  What is it that makes you feel that the dastaar is empowering for &quot;some&quot; women?, Or that it is a &quot;personal decision&quot;?  As a feminist, how can one reconcile the fact that for women it is just a personal decision, but for men it is a must?  As a feminist myself its something I have to contend with.

Don&#039;t get me wrong, I&#039;m not one to say that in order for woment to be equal they have to be the same -- far from it.  But sometimes I feel like much of the tension that stems from the &quot;woman wearing dastaar&quot; concept, if you will, is the fact that we really want it (the dastaar) to be accepted by everyone, yet we are afraid that if we declared it to be a necessity, it would turn some women away Sikhi, because they don&#039;t want to live up to the full responsiblity.  

One of the things they say when folks take amrit, is that you have to cover your hair.  Why would that possibly be the case?  Covering ones head as a sign of respect for God, is prevalent only in the East.  In the West, most folks would be offended if someone didn&#039;t take off their hat in a church or during the National Anthem.  I tend to wonder, whether the Guru&#039;s in all their supreme knowledge wanted something that was so ethnocentric, or whether the real call was for a turban. 

The idea of wearing a turban, a crown, is universal -- no matter where you go.  ALL royalty (male or female) wears a crown or crown-esque (if you will) regalia on his/her.  Since we are all sovereigns unto ourselves, it seems to make sense we&#039;d all need our crowns.  

Just a thought.

-JTS</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First off, thanks Camille for writing a great article.  I was initially also a bit tripped out by the wording of that sentence that Prabhu Singh had mentioned, but your comments made it clear.</p>
<p>There is one thing though.  You mention &#8220;I absolutely agree that for some Sikh women the dastaar is a deeply empowering decision and experience, and like you, I agree that this is a personal decision that varies by the woman.&#8221;</p>
<p>See, this is something I&#8217;ve been wondering for a while.  What is it that makes you feel that the dastaar is empowering for &#8220;some&#8221; women?, Or that it is a &#8220;personal decision&#8221;?  As a feminist, how can one reconcile the fact that for women it is just a personal decision, but for men it is a must?  As a feminist myself its something I have to contend with.</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I&#8217;m not one to say that in order for woment to be equal they have to be the same &#8212; far from it.  But sometimes I feel like much of the tension that stems from the &#8220;woman wearing dastaar&#8221; concept, if you will, is the fact that we really want it (the dastaar) to be accepted by everyone, yet we are afraid that if we declared it to be a necessity, it would turn some women away Sikhi, because they don&#8217;t want to live up to the full responsiblity.  </p>
<p>One of the things they say when folks take amrit, is that you have to cover your hair.  Why would that possibly be the case?  Covering ones head as a sign of respect for God, is prevalent only in the East.  In the West, most folks would be offended if someone didn&#8217;t take off their hat in a church or during the National Anthem.  I tend to wonder, whether the Guru&#8217;s in all their supreme knowledge wanted something that was so ethnocentric, or whether the real call was for a turban. </p>
<p>The idea of wearing a turban, a crown, is universal &#8212; no matter where you go.  ALL royalty (male or female) wears a crown or crown-esque (if you will) regalia on his/her.  Since we are all sovereigns unto ourselves, it seems to make sense we&#8217;d all need our crowns.  </p>
<p>Just a thought.</p>
<p>-JTS</p>
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		<title>By: Camille</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/recasting-gender-for-sikh-women/comment-page-1/#comment-3568</link>
		<dc:creator>Camille</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 17:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=360#comment-3568</guid>
		<description>No it&#039;s absolutely ok -- it seems that I wasn&#039;t very clear in that section about how I felt versus what was being said. Thank you for being patient with me! I do NOT believe that women who wear the dastaar are less feminine or &quot;masculinized.&quot; I think they are beautiful, and I respect their decision (even though it is not my own).

However, some of the panelists, specifically at this conference, used the argument you attribute to me (and that I paraphrased) to explain how they envisioned gender equity -- as a &quot;lack&quot; of gender. [Whether or not I agree with this argument -- which I do not, on multiple levels -- is briefly addressed in my comments in response to Anon, above] I had hoped to highlight how this kind of argument creates a false and limited scope of options for Sikh women. It also completely fails to address issues of equity and leadership by instead focusing on &quot;managing&quot; female representation, dress, and beauty. There are certainly another group of problems that I did not address in this post that underlie interpreting the dastaar as a &quot;masculinized&quot; aspect of one&#039;s image (which it is not). I guess I&#039;ll have to be more careful about being clear in the future =/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No it&#8217;s absolutely ok &#8212; it seems that I wasn&#8217;t very clear in that section about how I felt versus what was being said. Thank you for being patient with me! I do NOT believe that women who wear the dastaar are less feminine or &#8220;masculinized.&#8221; I think they are beautiful, and I respect their decision (even though it is not my own).</p>
<p>However, some of the panelists, specifically at this conference, used the argument you attribute to me (and that I paraphrased) to explain how they envisioned gender equity &#8212; as a &#8220;lack&#8221; of gender. [Whether or not I agree with this argument -- which I do not, on multiple levels -- is briefly addressed in my comments in response to Anon, above] I had hoped to highlight how this kind of argument creates a false and limited scope of options for Sikh women. It also completely fails to address issues of equity and leadership by instead focusing on &#8220;managing&#8221; female representation, dress, and beauty. There are certainly another group of problems that I did not address in this post that underlie interpreting the dastaar as a &#8220;masculinized&#8221; aspect of one&#8217;s image (which it is not). I guess I&#8217;ll have to be more careful about being clear in the future =/</p>
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		<title>By: Prabhu Singh Khalsa</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/recasting-gender-for-sikh-women/comment-page-1/#comment-3567</link>
		<dc:creator>Prabhu Singh Khalsa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:55:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=360#comment-3567</guid>
		<description>&quot;many female panelists encouraged what they termed as androgyneity: “de-feminizing” or “de-gendering” oneself, donning a pagri, and appearing gender-neutral, and by extension, less threatening to men.&quot;

You seem to state explicitly that &quot;donning a pagri&quot; is &quot;de-feminizing&quot; and &quot;appearing gender-neutral.&quot;
I&#039;ve seen and read the opinions of women who cut and pluck their hair taking subtle jabs and outright making fun of women who wear turbans. This looked somewhere between a subtle jab and an outright insult.
Personally I don&#039;t think women who wear turbans look masculine.
Sorry if I offended you with my comment, it was my initial reaction to what I thought was an insult.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;many female panelists encouraged what they termed as androgyneity: “de-feminizing” or “de-gendering” oneself, donning a pagri, and appearing gender-neutral, and by extension, less threatening to men.&#8221;</p>
<p>You seem to state explicitly that &#8220;donning a pagri&#8221; is &#8220;de-feminizing&#8221; and &#8220;appearing gender-neutral.&#8221;<br />
I&#8217;ve seen and read the opinions of women who cut and pluck their hair taking subtle jabs and outright making fun of women who wear turbans. This looked somewhere between a subtle jab and an outright insult.<br />
Personally I don&#8217;t think women who wear turbans look masculine.<br />
Sorry if I offended you with my comment, it was my initial reaction to what I thought was an insult.</p>
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		<title>By: Camille</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/recasting-gender-for-sikh-women/comment-page-1/#comment-3566</link>
		<dc:creator>Camille</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:40:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=360#comment-3566</guid>
		<description>Prabhu Singh, I did not make the insinuation you attribute to me, and I have clarified this point in my comments above. If you&#039;d like to discuss the subject of the post -- the impact of simplified and sexist stereotypes on the leadership interpretation and roles of Sikh women, then I would love to hear more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prabhu Singh, I did not make the insinuation you attribute to me, and I have clarified this point in my comments above. If you&#8217;d like to discuss the subject of the post &#8212; the impact of simplified and sexist stereotypes on the leadership interpretation and roles of Sikh women, then I would love to hear more.</p>
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		<title>By: Prabhu Singh Khalsa</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/recasting-gender-for-sikh-women/comment-page-1/#comment-3562</link>
		<dc:creator>Prabhu Singh Khalsa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 15:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=360#comment-3562</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t appreciate the authors insinuation that a woman wearing a turban is somehow masculine. Don&#039;t make excuses for your weakness, the Khalsa identifies with the dastar and is proud of it. Some women understand and appreciate this and wear the true crown of a princess (Kaur). I&#039;m sure they don&#039;t appreciate being labeled as masculine for honoring the Khalsa.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t appreciate the authors insinuation that a woman wearing a turban is somehow masculine. Don&#8217;t make excuses for your weakness, the Khalsa identifies with the dastar and is proud of it. Some women understand and appreciate this and wear the true crown of a princess (Kaur). I&#8217;m sure they don&#8217;t appreciate being labeled as masculine for honoring the Khalsa.</p>
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		<title>By: Anon</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/recasting-gender-for-sikh-women/comment-page-1/#comment-3552</link>
		<dc:creator>Anon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 04:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=360#comment-3552</guid>
		<description>Camille, Thanks for clarifying your post! And thanks for your thoughtful posts on this blog; I enjoy reading them. As a mother and part-time work at home mom, though, I rarely find time to comment! The questions you pose are really difficult, and I have no idea how we can address these issues. I get frustrated by the lack of female participation in Sikh activities.

maybe one place to start would be to encourage women in the process of fully realizing themselves so that they can understand their diverse interests, rather than suppress these interests or fail to pursue them because of societal expectations. Female-only conferences/support groups would allow women to first have open and honest discussions amongst themselves, which they can later share with their male counterparts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Camille, Thanks for clarifying your post! And thanks for your thoughtful posts on this blog; I enjoy reading them. As a mother and part-time work at home mom, though, I rarely find time to comment! The questions you pose are really difficult, and I have no idea how we can address these issues. I get frustrated by the lack of female participation in Sikh activities.</p>
<p>maybe one place to start would be to encourage women in the process of fully realizing themselves so that they can understand their diverse interests, rather than suppress these interests or fail to pursue them because of societal expectations. Female-only conferences/support groups would allow women to first have open and honest discussions amongst themselves, which they can later share with their male counterparts.</p>
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		<title>By: Mewa Singh</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/recasting-gender-for-sikh-women/comment-page-1/#comment-3531</link>
		<dc:creator>Mewa Singh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 01:45:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=360#comment-3531</guid>
		<description>My second interjection has just been clarified by Camille.  

In fact, Cynthia Keppley-Mahmood co-authored a book on the subject of &lt;em&gt;dastars&lt;/em&gt; and women with her student Stacy Brady.  The book is titled &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Gurus-Gift-Ethnography-Exploring-Equality/dp/076741781X&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Guru&#039;s Gift: An Ethnography Exploring Gender Equality with North American Sikh Women&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My second interjection has just been clarified by Camille.  </p>
<p>In fact, Cynthia Keppley-Mahmood co-authored a book on the subject of <em>dastars</em> and women with her student Stacy Brady.  The book is titled <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Gurus-Gift-Ethnography-Exploring-Equality/dp/076741781X" rel="nofollow">The Guru&#8217;s Gift: An Ethnography Exploring Gender Equality with North American Sikh Women</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Mewa Singh</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/recasting-gender-for-sikh-women/comment-page-1/#comment-3530</link>
		<dc:creator>Mewa Singh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 01:32:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=360#comment-3530</guid>
		<description>Although I do not aim to answer the questions posed to Sikh women, I did want to make a few interjections.

First, I wanted to provide a translation/interpretation and explanation of the same Shabad referred to by Camille in the original post.  The following was distributed and discussed at a conference held in Fresno, CA -  &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.jakara.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Jakara 2006&lt;/a&gt;, titled &quot;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.jakara.org/history.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Kaur Voices: Exalt, Express, Empower&lt;/a&gt;.&quot;

&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;strong&gt;Kaur Voices: Exalt, Express, Empower&lt;/strong&gt;
Over five centuries ago, the Ten Nanaks challenged the Sikhs to look beyond hierarchies and inequalities to find the Light of Vahguru within all.  To a crowd of men, Guru Nanak made the following command: 



&lt;strong&gt;Aasa Mahala Pehla
&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;In Raag Aasa as revealed to the first Nanak

&lt;strong&gt;Bhand Jamiyai bhand nimeeai bhandi mangan veeah.  Bhandu Hovai Dosthi Bhandu Chalai Raahu
&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;From the Endless Givers (Women) come birth, conception, engagement and marriage.  She is the soulmate.  She gives the path for future generations.

&lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;Bhand muuah bhand bhaleeai bhand hovai bandhaan.  So kio manda aakheeai jith jamai raajan&lt;/em&gt;
&lt;/strong&gt;Men (the takers) are bound to the Endless Givers (Women).  So why do you (the taking man) dare to treat her with disrespect, when she gives rise to nobility. 


&lt;strong&gt;Bhandhu hee bhand upjai bhanday baaj na koi.  Nanak bhanday baahra eko sacha soi 
&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;From the Endless Givers (Women) come the Endless Givers.  Without women, there is nothing.  O Nanak, only Vahguru is also the Endless Giver.

&lt;strong&gt;Jith mukh sada saalaaheeai bhaagaa rathee chaar.  Nanak thay much ujlay thith sachai darbar &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/em&gt;
That mouth that continuously praises Women is blessed.  O Nanak, in the True Court it is those that remember the Endless Givers (Women) who are radiant. 

&lt;strong&gt;Interpretation
&lt;/strong&gt;From woman comes all life.  She is the soul-mate.  She shows the path for the future.  How can men, who only take, criticize the noble woman?  From woman comes all, without woman there is none.  Those that exalt and empower women are blessed and are recognized by their radiance in the True Court of the Divine. 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I do not aim to answer the questions posed to Sikh women, I did want to make a few interjections.</p>
<p>First, I wanted to provide a translation/interpretation and explanation of the same Shabad referred to by Camille in the original post.  The following was distributed and discussed at a conference held in Fresno, CA &#8211;  <a href="http://www.jakara.org" rel="nofollow">Jakara 2006</a>, titled &#8220;<a href="http://www.jakara.org/history.htm" rel="nofollow">Kaur Voices: Exalt, Express, Empower</a>.&#8221;</p>
<blockquote><p>
<strong>Kaur Voices: Exalt, Express, Empower</strong><br />
Over five centuries ago, the Ten Nanaks challenged the Sikhs to look beyond hierarchies and inequalities to find the Light of Vahguru within all.  To a crowd of men, Guru Nanak made the following command: </p>
<p><strong>Aasa Mahala Pehla<br />
</strong><em>In Raag Aasa as revealed to the first Nanak</p>
<p><strong>Bhand Jamiyai bhand nimeeai bhandi mangan veeah.  Bhandu Hovai Dosthi Bhandu Chalai Raahu<br />
</strong></em>From the Endless Givers (Women) come birth, conception, engagement and marriage.  She is the soulmate.  She gives the path for future generations.</p>
<p><strong><em>Bhand muuah bhand bhaleeai bhand hovai bandhaan.  So kio manda aakheeai jith jamai raajan</em><br />
</strong>Men (the takers) are bound to the Endless Givers (Women).  So why do you (the taking man) dare to treat her with disrespect, when she gives rise to nobility. </p>
<p><strong>Bhandhu hee bhand upjai bhanday baaj na koi.  Nanak bhanday baahra eko sacha soi<br />
</strong><em>From the Endless Givers (Women) come the Endless Givers.  Without women, there is nothing.  O Nanak, only Vahguru is also the Endless Giver.</p>
<p><strong>Jith mukh sada saalaaheeai bhaagaa rathee chaar.  Nanak thay much ujlay thith sachai darbar </strong></em><br />
That mouth that continuously praises Women is blessed.  O Nanak, in the True Court it is those that remember the Endless Givers (Women) who are radiant. </p>
<p><strong>Interpretation<br />
</strong>From woman comes all life.  She is the soul-mate.  She shows the path for the future.  How can men, who only take, criticize the noble woman?  From woman comes all, without woman there is none.  Those that exalt and empower women are blessed and are recognized by their radiance in the True Court of the Divine.
</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Camille</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/general/recasting-gender-for-sikh-women/comment-page-1/#comment-3529</link>
		<dc:creator>Camille</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 00:57:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=360#comment-3529</guid>
		<description>Sorry, I should add that there is NOTHING wrong with a woman choosing to be a mother or to wear the dastaar, and that these choices do not make someone &quot;more&quot; or &quot;less&quot; feminine or &quot;less of a woman.&quot; As a feminist, I believe in two broad principles: 1. That there SHOULD be equity among and across genders (including genders that transcend the male/female dichotomy); and 2. that equity includes the freedom for those who do not identify as men to make whatever life choices they wish without penalty on the basis of their gender-identity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, I should add that there is NOTHING wrong with a woman choosing to be a mother or to wear the dastaar, and that these choices do not make someone &#8220;more&#8221; or &#8220;less&#8221; feminine or &#8220;less of a woman.&#8221; As a feminist, I believe in two broad principles: 1. That there SHOULD be equity among and across genders (including genders that transcend the male/female dichotomy); and 2. that equity includes the freedom for those who do not identify as men to make whatever life choices they wish without penalty on the basis of their gender-identity.</p>
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