Caste Matters: Legally Outlawing It In The Diaspora

The recent caste-based violence in a Vienna and Punjab has shown us the horrible consequences of casteism. Sathnam Sanghera recently did a short report, Caste Matters, which investigates the possibility of legally outlawing caste-based discrimination in the UK.

Often we think caste-based discrimination is a 1st generation issue that becomes diluted in the Diaspora. However, CasteWatchUK has anecdotal evidence to show otherwise. They have lobbied to include caste-based discrimination as part of a stream-lined single equality act that would go into effect in 2010. If the group provided research evidence that caste-based discrimination existed in areas managed by the government, such as jobs and social services, then caste would be added to the equality act along with race, religion, and sexual orientation. However, this evidence has yet to be provided, aside from anecdotal examples from the work-place. The lack of aggregate evidence is only due to a lack of investigative research, as the anecdotal cases prove that it is indeed occurring.

You can listen the BBC Asian Network Report here.

Lets us know what you think. Do you think caste-based discrimination should be included in equality acts in the Diaspora, such as the UK, USA, and Canada? If so, why?


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60 Responses to “Caste Matters: Legally Outlawing It In The Diaspora”

  1. rocco says:

    I am huge fan of the Langar Hall and think it's the best way to talk about issues that are up to date and "controversial". Most topics come with an excellent article that forms the template for discussion. I site Jodha and RP Singh as two contributors that go beyong the call of duty. Clearly they put in time, effort, analysis and passion into their articles. I REALLY enjoy reading their posts.

    Saying that, I am noticing a peculiar trend where topics are being put out there with little analysis and really not well thought out. I know noone has time these days to write well meaning articles all the time. One may also say that in a blog it is the discussion that is the crux of the material. However a well formulated article is vital to provide a springboard for that discussion and I am not seeing it happen. This caste article is a prime example. No offense Phulkari.

  2. rocco says:

    I am huge fan of the Langar Hall and think it’s the best way to talk about issues that are up to date and “controversial”. Most topics come with an excellent article that forms the template for discussion. I site Jodha and RP Singh as two contributors that go beyong the call of duty. Clearly they put in time, effort, analysis and passion into their articles. I REALLY enjoy reading their posts.

    Saying that, I am noticing a peculiar trend where topics are being put out there with little analysis and really not well thought out. I know noone has time these days to write well meaning articles all the time. One may also say that in a blog it is the discussion that is the crux of the material. However a well formulated article is vital to provide a springboard for that discussion and I am not seeing it happen. This caste article is a prime example. No offense Phulkari.

  3. Teg says:

    The violence in Vienna is being blown out of proportion as a so called "caste based conflict". I don't know who attacked the Ravidas Gurdwara/temple but the politics being played on this issue and the inspired propaganda against Sikhs should give us some clues about the forces behind this despicable act.

    An Indian radio station in London has claimed that it has received an email sent by KZF claiming responsibility. As expected/planned the entire Hindu propaganda network has picked up this story and even sent them on international wires. But just today the real Khalistan Zindabad Force member in an email has called it an absolute lie and reiterated the concept of Sikhism that we believe in Sarbat da bhalla. Obviously the Hindu intelligence agencies are fishing in troubled waters to defame the Sikhs…that too on the most reprehensible Hindu practice of caste based apartheid. The Punjab protests/riots were also being spearheaded by RSS/Shiv Sena activist.

    The Hindu agencies have been the main backers of the Dera culture. We used to have only few like Nirankaris, Radhasoamis etc. It was the conflict with the Nirankaris which escalated in to the unfortunate events in 1984. Since then it has been the policy of Indian government to totally divide the Sikhs into hundreds of Deras and finish their collective power. With massive, political, administrative, money and police support they have been able to create more than 300 Deras and are now doing the same to expand their reach abroad. Just 15-20 years ago we never had any Ravidas or even Nanaksar Gurdwaras in the diaspora. Now with massive RAW operations /money they have mushroomed every where.

    Sikhs must remember that Indian Government ( in spite of the symbolic Sikh Manmohan Singh) is the biggest and most ruthless enemy of the Sikhs and is bent upon to assimilate its unique identity in the wider Hindutava forces.

  4. justasikh says:

    A Caste Law! The greatest idea I've heard! Maybe I need to hear more ideas, but this would be great!

  5. Teg says:

    The violence in Vienna is being blown out of proportion as a so called “caste based conflict”. I don’t know who attacked the Ravidas Gurdwara/temple but the politics being played on this issue and the inspired propaganda against Sikhs should give us some clues about the forces behind this despicable act.

    An Indian radio station in London has claimed that it has received an email sent by KZF claiming responsibility. As expected/planned the entire Hindu propaganda network has picked up this story and even sent them on international wires. But just today the real Khalistan Zindabad Force member in an email has called it an absolute lie and reiterated the concept of Sikhism that we believe in Sarbat da bhalla. Obviously the Hindu intelligence agencies are fishing in troubled waters to defame the Sikhs…that too on the most reprehensible Hindu practice of caste based apartheid. The Punjab protests/riots were also being spearheaded by RSS/Shiv Sena activist.

    The Hindu agencies have been the main backers of the Dera culture. We used to have only few like Nirankaris, Radhasoamis etc. It was the conflict with the Nirankaris which escalated in to the unfortunate events in 1984. Since then it has been the policy of Indian government to totally divide the Sikhs into hundreds of Deras and finish their collective power. With massive, political, administrative, money and police support they have been able to create more than 300 Deras and are now doing the same to expand their reach abroad. Just 15-20 years ago we never had any Ravidas or even Nanaksar Gurdwaras in the diaspora. Now with massive RAW operations /money they have mushroomed every where.
    Sikhs must remember that Indian Government ( in spite of the symbolic Sikh Manmohan Singh) is the biggest and most ruthless enemy of the Sikhs and is bent upon to assimilate its unique identity in the wider Hindutava forces.

  6. justasikh says:

    A Caste Law! The greatest idea I’ve heard! Maybe I need to hear more ideas, but this would be great!

  7. Dalsher Singh says:

    Caste is a notion very deeply ingrained within the minds of Sikhs born in Punjab who are now residing in the West. In areas of higher Sikh concentration, this mentality has been passed on to their offspring, who while not necessarily understanding the reasoning behind a caste system, further continue the discrimination simply because it is part of their culture. I feel that the Sikhs born in the West are less likely to further expand the caste system, and so slowly, it (notion of caste) will die out here; Punjab, while not as progressive as the West, certainly has potential in moving away from the caste system. I could be completely misreading this, and so feel free to criticize.

  8. Dalsher Singh says:

    Caste is a notion very deeply ingrained within the minds of Sikhs born in Punjab who are now residing in the West. In areas of higher Sikh concentration, this mentality has been passed on to their offspring, who while not necessarily understanding the reasoning behind a caste system, further continue the discrimination simply because it is part of their culture. I feel that the Sikhs born in the West are less likely to further expand the caste system, and so slowly, it (notion of caste) will die out here; Punjab, while not as progressive as the West, certainly has potential in moving away from the caste system. I could be completely misreading this, and so feel free to criticize.

  9. Love your analysis, Dalsher Singh – it’s totally spot on. However, I’m not as confident that Punjab has enough potential to rid itself from the ills of this type of discrimination. It’s intrinsic and inherent – sadly, despite the prevalence of Sikh ideology.

  10. Love your analysis, Dalsher Singh – it’s totally spot on. However, I’m not as confident that Punjab has enough potential to rid itself from the ills of this type of discrimination. It’s intrinsic and inherent – sadly, despite the prevalence of Sikh ideology.

  11. baingandabhartha says:

    caste law would give bottom feeder lawyers more work. More litigation thats all it would accomplish

  12. baingandabhartha says:

    caste law would give bottom feeder lawyers more work. More litigation thats all it would accomplish

  13. Dostum says:

    It seems to have become a fashion to criticise deras giving inessential, redundant and hollow arguments. The main problem is the comparison with the Sikh religion. Once that is stopped everything will be alright. We need a paradigm shift.
    Why can’t we co-exist ? Deras have never been a harm to Sikhism.They, in their satsangs only qoute verses from gurbani as they quote from other religious books. Never was any word uttered in the criticism of Sikhs. Dera traditions are centuries old. At the times of Guru Sehban differnt sects were present. Yet Gurus respected them. Bani of different Sants was added to the Secred Guru Granth Sahib just to signify that the destination is one. Source may be different. . . .
    On the contrary Sikhs have always attacked on this one or that one. Do Gurus teach that ? It appears that sikhs are the most agitated lot who dont know what love or peace is all about. They have never practiced Master’s teachings regarding universal brotherhood. They take pride in “casteism” (read jattism) . Anything happens anywhere,they pull out their swords. They have made “tamasha” of the secred sword. It was not to threat anybody.
    Their atrocities and hatered lead the total boycot of Sikhism by dalits. When Dr Ambedkar was studying all religions (he was about to denounce hinduism and was studying diff. religions) He selected two religions: Sikhism as well as Bhudhism. Out of these two, he preferred Sikhism. He intimated his intentions regarding this to Sikh bodies. But, inspite of receiving him with open arms, the caste conscious sikh leaders said : This is impossible. “ki asin Harmandir Sahib chuhre- chamaran nu sambhal deyiye?”
    This statement managed to reach Dr. Ambedkar. He rejected Sikhism then and there saying,’Gurubani and Sikhs are two things which are totally different. We were rejecting hinduism to put an end to this curse viz “casteism”, but the same is more strongly prevelant in Sikhs. So,let them be happy with their castes. Sikhism is not for us’. He went for Budhism. Had it been not the case, Sikhs would have been in the majority.

  14. Dostum says:

    It seems to have become a fashion to criticise deras giving inessential, redundant and hollow arguments. The main problem is the comparison with the Sikh religion. Once that is stopped everything will be alright. We need a paradigm shift.
    Why can’t we co-exist ? Deras have never been a harm to Sikhism.They, in their satsangs only qoute verses from gurbani as they quote from other religious books. Never was any word uttered in the criticism of Sikhs. Dera traditions are centuries old. At the times of Guru Sehban differnt sects were present. Yet Gurus respected them. Bani of different Sants was added to the Secred Guru Granth Sahib just to signify that the destination is one. Source may be different. . . .
    On the contrary Sikhs have always attacked on this one or that one. Do Gurus teach that ? It appears that sikhs are the most agitated lot who dont know what love or peace is all about. They have never practiced Master’s teachings regarding universal brotherhood. They take pride in “casteism” (read jattism) . Anything happens anywhere,they pull out their swords. They have made “tamasha” of the secred sword. It was not to threat anybody.
    Their atrocities and hatered lead the total boycot of Sikhism by dalits. When Dr Ambedkar was studying all religions (he was about to denounce hinduism and was studying diff. religions) He selected two religions: Sikhism as well as Bhudhism. Out of these two, he preferred Sikhism. He intimated his intentions regarding this to Sikh bodies. But, inspite of receiving him with open arms, the caste conscious sikh leaders said : This is impossible. “ki asin Harmandir Sahib chuhre- chamaran nu sambhal deyiye?”
    This statement managed to reach Dr. Ambedkar. He rejected Sikhism then and there saying,’Gurubani and Sikhs are two things which are totally different. We were rejecting hinduism to put an end to this curse viz “casteism”, but the same is more strongly prevelant in Sikhs. So,let them be happy with their castes. Sikhism is not for us’. He went for Budhism. Had it been not the case, Sikhs would have been in the majority.

  15. Jaz Dosanjh says:

    When Indian movies portray us Sikhs as being a bit dim, perhaps they know us better than we know ourselves and have a point.
    What I’m trying to say is that during the last few days its been confirmed that this incident did infact occur inside a ravidassia bhawan rather than a sikh gurdwara, and various western ravidassia organisations have written to the media poiting out that they are hindus…NOT sikh. Its also been widely reported that the issue of contention at that ravidassia bhawan was the way that the congregation there were washing the feet of this living guru, then placing rumalla on his feet before placing that rumalla Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. That, has been offensive to jat sikhs, chamar sikhs and chure sikhs alike.
    Now………I can understand why a white, middle aged newspaper journalist from Buckinghamshire might not be able to understand the issues and mistake it for a caste issue but whats YOUR excuse???

  16. Jaz Dosanjh says:

    When Indian movies portray us Sikhs as being a bit dim, perhaps they know us better than we know ourselves and have a point.
    What I’m trying to say is that during the last few days its been confirmed that this incident did infact occur inside a ravidassia bhawan rather than a sikh gurdwara, and various western ravidassia organisations have written to the media poiting out that they are hindus…NOT sikh. Its also been widely reported that the issue of contention at that ravidassia bhawan was the way that the congregation there were washing the feet of this living guru, then placing rumalla on his feet before placing that rumalla Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. That, has been offensive to jat sikhs, chamar sikhs and chure sikhs alike.
    Now………I can understand why a white, middle aged newspaper journalist from Buckinghamshire might not be able to understand the issues and mistake it for a caste issue but whats YOUR excuse???

  17. NYCHAMAR says:

    I disagree that Dera’s are a new phenomenon. The Ravidass dera is quite old.

  18. NYCHAMAR says:

    I disagree that Dera’s are a new phenomenon. The Ravidass dera is quite old.

  19. Dostum says:

    The language you use speaks volumes of your mind-set.

    The nonsensical 'evidence' is totally rubbish. No such thing ever happened. Besides, this is the excuse given as an after-thought to justify the cowardly act and to flare up block-headed persons. Well, they succeeded … and how !

    Moreover, if your sikhs were that great and devoted sikhs, they should have observed the maryada themselves. They attacked on unarmed men and that too in the presence of their own Guru (Guru Granth Sahib). If this is not be-adbi then what is ?

    But due to the veil of castes you people are as good as blinds.

  20. Camille says:

    I would encourage readers to look beyond the recent Vienna incident to reflect, and critique, the concept of extending civil rights protections to caste. That is really the core of what this post is raising, and I think that is a much more interesting, constructive, and engaging conversation than rehashing the arguments over deras that have propagated in the comments section on this blog and others.

  21. Dostum says:

    There is an age old proverb.

    If you want your religion to be respected, learn to respect others.

    You people so casually speak of great gurus of other sects. You dont have "tameez" to write even "bhakt Ravidass" if not Guru Ravidass (He is a guru of millions of people which are more in number than sikhs, mind you )What if some one spoke as derogatory as your language about your respected gurus ? Wouldn't that give immense pain in your…

    stomach ?

    Perhaps, you need to go to elementry school where they teach the basics & and golden Rule :

    (Do unto others what you want them do unto you).

  22. Jaz Dosanjh says:

    Dostum, you seem very bitter. Like every jat sikh in the world owes you for something their forefathers did to your forefather. Whatever it was, I promise it wasn't my fault. I was off sick that day and I've got a note from my mum to prove it.

    Guru Ravidas, you say???

    Umm……While I looked away, do we now have a Guru Mardhana? A Guru Kabir?? Should everyone take a leaf out of the chamar's book and make 'caste' such a prominent part of their faith by picking a bhagat from the SGGS ji that just happens to belong to the same 'caste' as them and elevate him to the position of guru because of it ?

    Yesterday, the Ravidassia Sabha of Ontario issued a statement to the media, stating the media should NOT refer to them as Sikhs, because they are hindus.

    In every census that ever been conducted in Punjab, the ravidassias have always declared themselves to be hindu.

    Here's something else to give you food for thought. Last year Niranjan Das visited the UK and wished to sermon at the country's largest Ravidassia Bhawan in Birmingham. The temple management however, refused him entry because they disagreed with everything he stood for…..stating he was deliberately causing disharmony among the Punjabi community in Birmingham.

    His followers were then forced to hire a community hall nearby. Spies from the local ravidassia bhawan attended that event and took photographs of what was happening. The photos show him sitting next to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji……with everyone knealing down at his feet and matha tek'ing him. Doing matha tek to HIM…..NOT to our true guru. Those pics are available to see on various sikh websites at the moment and were posted by true sikhs of a chamar background.So you see, its got nothing to do with caste discrimination……Sikhs of all backgrounds, high and low, are disgusted with the practices of the ravidassias.

    As usual, when you get found out, your community falls back on its old excuse ; Caste. Caste is your get out of jail free card for every rainy day.

    So what exactly does your community want ? Already it has, through government legislation in Punjab, guarantees of top jobs…guarantees of university places….guarantees of jobs high up in civil service and the police. All this, while jat sikhs and other sikhs have an unemployment rate of something like 90%. You're so protected that I'm lucky I'm not sitting in Punjab right now because if I was I wouldn't be allowed to call you a chamar, even though you are a chamar and bhagat ravidass himself refers to himself as a chamar.

    The only thing left to give you is our faith….and you're even taking that now and distorting it to fit in with your caste ideals.

    Caste is a big deal to nobody but those very people that like to use it to their advantage…..the so called victims of caste ; you.

    (imagine, everyone, for just one second if it was the jatt community that did what the chamar community have done. imagine if the jat sikhs started thinking to themselves "umm…hang on….there's 10 gurus and sggs…..but as a jatt i insist we also have a 12th guru, who must be a jatt. lets have a look at the granth and if one of those great bhagats was a jatt we'll make him the guru and make him the bestest most important guru of all because he belongs to the same caste as us…….and then when other sikhs complain we'll play the caste card and ask "iz it coz i is jatt?" )

  23. Dostum says:

    The language you use speaks volumes of your mind-set.
    The nonsensical ‘evidence’ is totally rubbish. No such thing ever happened. Besides, this is the excuse given as an after-thought to justify the cowardly act and to flare up block-headed persons. Well, they succeeded … and how !
    Moreover, if your sikhs were that great and devoted sikhs, they should have observed the maryada themselves. They attacked on unarmed men and that too in the presence of their own Guru (Guru Granth Sahib). If this is not be-adbi then what is ?
    But due to the veil of castes you people are as good as blinds.

  24. Camille says:

    I would encourage readers to look beyond the recent Vienna incident to reflect, and critique, the concept of extending civil rights protections to caste. That is really the core of what this post is raising, and I think that is a much more interesting, constructive, and engaging conversation than rehashing the arguments over deras that have propagated in the comments section on this blog and others.

  25. Dostum says:

    There is an age old proverb.
    If you want your religion to be respected, learn to respect others.
    You people so casually speak of great gurus of other sects. You dont have “tameez” to write even “bhakt Ravidass” if not Guru Ravidass (He is a guru of millions of people which are more in number than sikhs, mind you )What if some one spoke as derogatory as your language about your respected gurus ? Wouldn’t that give immense pain in your…
    stomach ?
    Perhaps, you need to go to elementry school where they teach the basics & and golden Rule :
    (Do unto others what you want them do unto you).

  26. Mewa Singh says:

    Jaz,

    But you don't live in Punjab and you have little true perspective of it. Yet you do not hesitate on your tirad. I don't think Rush Limbaugh or Fox News could have provided a more nonsensical polemic.

    Odd how we can never focus on points of commonality, only on points of division. I hope people re-read these two brilliant posts.

  27. Jaz Dosanjh says:

    Dostum, you seem very bitter. Like every jat sikh in the world owes you for something their forefathers did to your forefather. Whatever it was, I promise it wasn’t my fault. I was off sick that day and I’ve got a note from my mum to prove it.
    Guru Ravidas, you say???
    Umm……While I looked away, do we now have a Guru Mardhana? A Guru Kabir?? Should everyone take a leaf out of the chamar’s book and make ‘caste’ such a prominent part of their faith by picking a bhagat from the SGGS ji that just happens to belong to the same ‘caste’ as them and elevate him to the position of guru because of it ?
    Yesterday, the Ravidassia Sabha of Ontario issued a statement to the media, stating the media should NOT refer to them as Sikhs, because they are hindus.
    In every census that ever been conducted in Punjab, the ravidassias have always declared themselves to be hindu.

    Here’s something else to give you food for thought. Last year Niranjan Das visited the UK and wished to sermon at the country’s largest Ravidassia Bhawan in Birmingham. The temple management however, refused him entry because they disagreed with everything he stood for…..stating he was deliberately causing disharmony among the Punjabi community in Birmingham.
    His followers were then forced to hire a community hall nearby. Spies from the local ravidassia bhawan attended that event and took photographs of what was happening. The photos show him sitting next to Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji……with everyone knealing down at his feet and matha tek’ing him. Doing matha tek to HIM…..NOT to our true guru. Those pics are available to see on various sikh websites at the moment and were posted by true sikhs of a chamar background.So you see, its got nothing to do with caste discrimination……Sikhs of all backgrounds, high and low, are disgusted with the practices of the ravidassias.
    As usual, when you get found out, your community falls back on its old excuse ; Caste. Caste is your get out of jail free card for every rainy day.

    So what exactly does your community want ? Already it has, through government legislation in Punjab, guarantees of top jobs…guarantees of university places….guarantees of jobs high up in civil service and the police. All this, while jat sikhs and other sikhs have an unemployment rate of something like 90%. You’re so protected that I’m lucky I’m not sitting in Punjab right now because if I was I wouldn’t be allowed to call you a chamar, even though you are a chamar and bhagat ravidass himself refers to himself as a chamar.
    The only thing left to give you is our faith….and you’re even taking that now and distorting it to fit in with your caste ideals.

    Caste is a big deal to nobody but those very people that like to use it to their advantage…..the so called victims of caste ; you.

    (imagine, everyone, for just one second if it was the jatt community that did what the chamar community have done. imagine if the jat sikhs started thinking to themselves “umm…hang on….there’s 10 gurus and sggs…..but as a jatt i insist we also have a 12th guru, who must be a jatt. lets have a look at the granth and if one of those great bhagats was a jatt we’ll make him the guru and make him the bestest most important guru of all because he belongs to the same caste as us…….and then when other sikhs complain we’ll play the caste card and ask “iz it coz i is jatt?” )

  28. Dostum says:

    Another post turning personal. That is not surprising. The language you use clearly shows how "high" you are intellectually or otherwise. And who was bitter ? Its anybody's guess.

    Your 'forefather my forefather' theory.

    First take up any book on caste and note down that your forefathers were Shudras. Instead for sympathising for mine, plz grieve for them. Coz at that time they were being tortured by upper caste hindus. Jatts, coz they are shudras, enjoy reservations in many Indian states. At the most, you can say, you are higher amongst shudras.

    Sant Niranjan Dass, if said he was a hindu, then he must be. That is no reason for you to jump up and down. That is not surprising. Yes, on the contrary, if someone says he is a "sikh", that would be surprising. Who would like to join the bunch of hypocrites who on one hand recite secred bani and on the other hand does diametrically opposite things. Gurus left no stone unturned to eradicate cateism but you left no stone unturned to keep it alive ( since you people have no other qualification, it becomes necessary to blow this trumpet).

    Sikhism is nothing but jattism. You are welcome to have it. No one is interested. Its you who are going here there and everywhere. Who is comming to you ? You are degrading yourself.

    The root cause is the jealosy. Afterall, how can a dalit's uprise be tolerated?

    You are soooo agitated they they matha-teking their guru. If they think he is their guru, why shouldn't they ? In their minds all gurus are equal. If YOU think otherwise, it is your problem not theirs.

    Caste is never a reality. No matter how you people try to emphasis, at the end you have to eat a humble pie. Your latest adventure (attacking the harmless sant ) has served the purpose. This incident has reached at the UN. Now, caste would be included in racial discrimination which India desperately has been trying to prevent for many years. India has held that it is a discrimination but not 'racial'. Now, UN is not listening. Pity, for it would be difficult to call CHAMAR CHAMAR even out there soon. Once it is included, you will be brought to book in foreign countries too for degrading human dignity.

    As for reservation and academic qualifications : Your illiteracy comes to fore time and again. I can guide you (whole gamut of topics.. .)

    This Chairman of UPSC was all praises for dalit students (read SC). He said that those students did so well that they scored more than 'general' category students. That too inspite of their limited resources. Look at the data. Dalits have every qualification under their belt (look at the consensus). If 90% of your youth are roaming free, that's because that is your habit. Hard work is miles away from them. Studies is a foreign word. Their only career is "Foren". 90% of you who out there are doing petty jobs and are second class citizens . You are hated in western countries MORE than you hate dalits coz for westerners YOU are something like dalits. Life is like a boomrang, you see. What you project ultimately comes to you.

    Come out of your "superiority complex". Being jatt is no qualification rather blown out of proportion misconception.

    Time has changed.

  29. Jaz Dosanjh says:

    ^ Come again John ??

    Can you repeat that in normal everyday English, Dostum ?

  30. Mewa Singh says:

    Jaz,

    But you don’t live in Punjab and you have little true perspective of it. Yet you do not hesitate on your tirad. I don’t think Rush Limbaugh or Fox News could have provided a more nonsensical polemic.

    Odd how we can never focus on points of commonality, only on points of division. I hope people re-read these two brilliant posts.

  31. Dostum says:

    Another post turning personal. That is not surprising. The language you use clearly shows how “high” you are intellectually or otherwise. And who was bitter ? Its anybody’s guess.
    Your ‘forefather my forefather’ theory.
    First take up any book on caste and note down that your forefathers were Shudras. Instead for sympathising for mine, plz grieve for them. Coz at that time they were being tortured by upper caste hindus. Jatts, coz they are shudras, enjoy reservations in many Indian states. At the most, you can say, you are higher amongst shudras.

    Sant Niranjan Dass, if said he was a hindu, then he must be. That is no reason for you to jump up and down. That is not surprising. Yes, on the contrary, if someone says he is a “sikh”, that would be surprising. Who would like to join the bunch of hypocrites who on one hand recite secred bani and on the other hand does diametrically opposite things. Gurus left no stone unturned to eradicate cateism but you left no stone unturned to keep it alive ( since you people have no other qualification, it becomes necessary to blow this trumpet).
    Sikhism is nothing but jattism. You are welcome to have it. No one is interested. Its you who are going here there and everywhere. Who is comming to you ? You are degrading yourself.
    The root cause is the jealosy. Afterall, how can a dalit’s uprise be tolerated?
    You are soooo agitated they they matha-teking their guru. If they think he is their guru, why shouldn’t they ? In their minds all gurus are equal. If YOU think otherwise, it is your problem not theirs.
    Caste is never a reality. No matter how you people try to emphasis, at the end you have to eat a humble pie. Your latest adventure (attacking the harmless sant ) has served the purpose. This incident has reached at the UN. Now, caste would be included in racial discrimination which India desperately has been trying to prevent for many years. India has held that it is a discrimination but not ‘racial’. Now, UN is not listening. Pity, for it would be difficult to call CHAMAR CHAMAR even out there soon. Once it is included, you will be brought to book in foreign countries too for degrading human dignity.
    As for reservation and academic qualifications : Your illiteracy comes to fore time and again. I can guide you (whole gamut of topics.. .)
    This Chairman of UPSC was all praises for dalit students (read SC). He said that those students did so well that they scored more than ‘general’ category students. That too inspite of their limited resources. Look at the data. Dalits have every qualification under their belt (look at the consensus). If 90% of your youth are roaming free, that’s because that is your habit. Hard work is miles away from them. Studies is a foreign word. Their only career is “Foren”. 90% of you who out there are doing petty jobs and are second class citizens . You are hated in western countries MORE than you hate dalits coz for westerners YOU are something like dalits. Life is like a boomrang, you see. What you project ultimately comes to you.
    Come out of your “superiority complex”. Being jatt is no qualification rather blown out of proportion misconception.
    Time has changed.

  32. Jaz Dosanjh says:

    ^ Come again John ??
    Can you repeat that in normal everyday English, Dostum ?

  33. Jaz Dosanjh says:

    Actually, good news….I’ve managed to imagine a few commas, full stops etc in your posts and in my head have manged to decypher a couple of sentences.
    One of ’em mentions something about the 90% unemployment rate amongst rural jatts being the rural jatts fault.
    Umm….interesting. So you don’t think its got anything to do with how all the jobs are reserved through government quotas for your community ?

    Right….so we’re all in agreement then. All this caste based stuff needs to stop. The government needs to stop its ‘positive discrimination’ and stop reserving university places for your community, so maybe it can go to a deserving jatt young lady for a change. The government needs to stop reserving jobs through quotas for your community, so maybe a jatt graduate can become one of that 10% and land himself a job.I need to come into your front garden twice a day (coz i’m regular you see), drop my pants and crap on your lawn…….just like you do on our land in Punjab, and then cry caste discrimination when we don’t let you (re; the Talhan incident). I need send my wife to steal your petrol. My car needs it to survive. Just like your community sends its wives onto the jatts land to cut and steal the patte for your cows.

    Btw……………its already against the law for me to call you a chamar in Punjab. I would get arrested for it but the ironic thing is, in that prison cell with me would be bhagat Ravidas himself for calling himself a chamar.

  34. Jaz Dosanjh says:

    Actually, good news….I’ve managed to imagine a few commas, full stops etc in your posts and in my head have manged to decypher a couple of sentences.
    One of ’em mentions something about the 90% unemployment rate amongst rural jatts being the rural jatts fault.
    Umm….interesting. So you don’t think its got anything to do with how all the jobs are reserved through government quotas for your community ?

    Right….so we’re all in agreement then. All this caste based stuff needs to stop. The government needs to stop its ‘positive discrimination’ and stop reserving university places for your community, so maybe it can go to a deserving jatt young lady for a change. The government needs to stop reserving jobs through quotas for your community, so maybe a jatt graduate can become one of that 10% and land himself a job.I need to come into your front garden twice a day (coz i’m regular you see), drop my pants and crap on your lawn…….just like you do on our land in Punjab, and then cry caste discrimination when we don’t let you (re; the Talhan incident). I need send my wife to steal your petrol. My car needs it to survive. Just like your community sends its wives onto the jatts land to cut and steal the patte for your cows.

    Btw……………its already against the law for me to call you a chamar in Punjab. I would get arrested for it but the ironic thing is, in that prison cell with me would be bhagat Ravidas himself for calling himself a chamar.

  35. KDS says:

    Dear dostam

    I am reading yours and others comments from past many days on this issue

    .I just want to say that Calling sikhism a jattism is not right .there are other communities in sikhism too which are practising sikhism as Akal takhat prescribes.Ethnic,caste divisions are in every religion and many communities are several times blamed for dominating a religion.If some dalits don't want to practice sikhism Its fine but don't blame it on jatts or other communities

  36. KDS says:

    Dear dostam

    I am reading yours and others comments from past many days on this issue
    .I just want to say that Calling sikhism a jattism is not right .there are other communities in sikhism too which are practising sikhism as Akal takhat prescribes.Ethnic,caste divisions are in every religion and many communities are several times blamed for dominating a religion.If some dalits don’t want to practice sikhism Its fine but don’t blame it on jatts or other communities

  37. Mewa Singh says:

    Jaz,

    Your comments regarding epithets do not make sense. Of course if an African-American uses the “N-word” it is fine and it is not ok if a white person uses it. Must you really have such infantile arguments.

    The fixation on caste, especially by those most privileged, as evidenced by the number of comments testifies to its reality. I truly do hope that caste-based discrimination makes its way into UK law.

  38. Mewa Singh says:

    Jaz,

    Your comments regarding epithets do not make sense. Of course if an African-American uses the “N-word” it is fine and it is not ok if a white person uses it. Must you really have such infantile arguments.

    The fixation on caste, especially by those most privileged, as evidenced by the number of comments testifies to its reality. I truly do hope that caste-based discrimination makes its way into UK law.

  39. Dostum says:

    Okay friends, me off for now.

    I am going to meet my mother and will come back online on Tuesday, if not Monday.

    I will try to respond by then. Since I will be away, till then, let Mr Dosanjh 'play' :)

  40. Dostum says:

    The good thing is that NOT all jatts are like you. You consitute an insignificant minority. As has been seen, many have evolved into enlightened Sikhs from unpadh jatts like you. They respect human values. They refuse to be led by such idiotic notion that a man can be superior to another without any ‘act’.
    How you have assumed that I am a CHAMAR shows the level you possess. Yet I have no grudges, for, a Jatt is as much a Chamar (plz read bani you will know. Err… was that asking for too much. Bani and you ??? ) I have many dalit scolar friends. You can not imagine what their level is. Before that I was as dumb as you are today. This would come as a great shock to you if you know about me reality. The pleasure you were deriving in your imagination about ‘my’ family using ‘your’ ‘land’ is nothing but a laughing stock.
    For I dont know which petrol pump are you working at ‘out there’, I dont know which taxy are you driving. I dont know how could you have managed to purchase lands in Punjab.
    I only know, I own my my own cars and lands. I hold a good position. I visit other countries not to work but to ‘enjoy’.I have seen your real position there. (As I am writing this, channels are showing attacks on you people in Australia ) What the real respect you command there is nobody’s illusion. Is there any doubt as to how low you stooped just to get to ‘foren’. Every sacred family relations have been tarnished.I have seen many Amritdharis who remove their Sri-sahibs when entering in the planes. ‘Foren’ is more important not religion. ‘Babe kolon mafi manglange’ Only some sikhs have the guts to refuse to trevel ( “Bhai Ranjit Singh Dhadrian Wale”) without Sri Sahib.

    Lastly, please call day in and day out this word ” CHAMAR”. Who restricts you ? Repeat it with every breath. Be one with it. This is Chamar-consciousness. As a man thinketh so is he. Moreover, time is running out, for, you would be in Jail even in West for calling it, soon.
    Then even Bhagt Ravidass would not save you.

  41. Dostum says:

    The good thing is that NOT all jatts are like you. You consitute an insignificant minority. As has been seen, many have evolved into enlightened Sikhs from unpadh jatts like you. They respect human values. They refuse to be led by such idiotic notion that a man can be superior to another without any ‘act’.
    How you have assumed that I am a CHAMAR shows the level you possess. Yet I have no grudges, for, a Jatt is as much a Chamar (plz read bani you will know. Err… was that asking for too much. Bani and you ??? ) I have many dalit scolar friends. You can not imagine what their level is. Before that I was as dumb as you are today. This would come as a great shock to you if you know about me reality. The pleasure you were deriving in your imagination about ‘my’ family using ‘your’ ‘land’ is nothing but a laughing stock.
    For I dont know which petrol pump are you working at ‘out there’, I dont know which taxy are you driving. I dont know how could you have managed to purchase lands in Punjab.
    I only know, I own my my own cars and lands. I hold a good position. I visit other countries not to work but to ‘enjoy’.I have seen your real position there. (As I am writing this, channels are showing attacks on you people in Australia ) What the real respect you command there is nobody’s illusion. Is there any doubt as to how low you stooped just to get to ‘foren’. Every sacred family relations have been tarnished.I have seen many Amritdharis who remove their Sri-sahibs when entering in the planes. ‘Foren’ is more important not religion. ‘Babe kolon mafi manglange’ Only some sikhs have the guts to refuse to trevel ( “Bhai Ranjit Singh Dhadrian Wale”) without Sri Sahib.

    Lastly, please call day in and day out this word ” CHAMAR”. Who restricts you ? Repeat it with every breath. Be one with it. This is Chamar-consciousness. As a man thinketh so is he. Moreover, time is running out, for, you would be in Jail even in West for calling it, soon.
    Then even Bhagt Ravidass would not save you.

  42. Dostum says:

    Okay friends, me off for now.
    I am going to meet my mother and will come back online on Tuesday, if not Monday.
    I will try to respond by then. Since I will be away, till then, let Mr Dosanjh ‘play’ :)

  43. TheTruth says:

    No. Too hard to prove beyond the shadow of doubt, too many legal issues. Caste is tough to put under equal rights law, legally that is. I'm all for equality, but denying those who earn their stripes on merit to someone else who is less qualified based on gender or caste is kind of like commiting an injustice in the present to rectify a crime from the past. I dunno, looks kind of hazy to me.

    Eg. South Africa Cricket Team. Having a set number of black players in the side really created disharmony and sense that some guys were only on the team based on color and not on merit. Its been dropped I think and now you still see Non-whites and whites playing together doing really well, all on the side on merit. Imagine what torment it must be knowing you got picked to team based on your color, when you know you had the skills to be picked even without that color advantage?

    What you get in LIFE is based on merit, not the benefit of your last name, be it esteemed or shunned. I dont want no one to hand me something I didn't derserve simply because of my color, gender or what have you.

    Sikhism is nothing but jattism. You are welcome to have it. No one is interested.

    Do you not realize that people who still cling to caste are not Sikhs? If you dont follow the teachings of your master, then how can one claim to be his student? Whats more important, to look like a sikh, or have the actions of a Sikh? Just because they claim they are Sikhs, does it truly mean they are? Or will you observe their actions and mannerisms to find out for yourself if that is true or not? If they are who they say they are?

    Sikhi has no caste. So please dont mock it by saying its this caste or that caste based discrimination. You or anyone else can bow to a tree,lamp, box, and call whomever you please Guru Ji if you so choose (I respect anyones freewill to worship whom they please), but do not mix it up with the teachings and guidelines set forth by the 10 Sikh Gurus (there were only 10 living Gurus by the way in Sikhi, Ravidass is not considered one of them in Sikhi. Sects dont count in my eyes. There is only one sect in my eyes=KHALSA PANTH. No derivates. Any deviation puts you on the path to a seperate religon). That doesnt mean the great follower Ravidass doesn't get respect, but in Sikhi he is not a Guru, yet in your faith or other faiths he may be and thats fine, more power to them. I cant tell you who is or who isnt a guru in your religon, but I can surely tell you who isnt one in mine and you have the same right as well.

    There is an age old proverb.

    If you want your religion to be respected, learn to respect others.

    You people so casually speak of great gurus of other sects. You dont have “tameez” to write even “bhakt Ravidass” if not Guru Ravidass (He is a guru of millions of people which are more in number than sikhs, mind you )What if some one spoke as derogatory as your language about your respected gurus ? Wouldn’t that give immense pain in your…

    stomach ?

    I dont see much respect from you from that Jattism comment, but then again up to you. My job is to say something, and thats it, after that the ball is in your court to keep that view or not.

    And if I was on a Catholic blog or Hindu blog and they referred to Guru Nanak as Nanak or whatever, why would I lose sleep over it? They arent Sikhs, how can I hold them to Sikhi standards when they simply do not know. If you worship someone that Sikhs dont consider a guru (100% without a shadow of a doubt), then how can you hold other religons to your standards? Same applies if you dont accept one of the 10 Sikh gurus as a real guru. Its fine with me, because it doesnt change much in my life. So dont take it so personal if someone doesnt know about your religion and what or who you call your guru(s).

    Deragotory commments shouldnt hurt and they wouldnt hurt me good sir. What does a manmukh know? You can simply pray that they are forgiven for they know not what they do. One Love.

  44. TheTruth says:

    No. Too hard to prove beyond the shadow of doubt, too many legal issues. Caste is tough to put under equal rights law, legally that is. I’m all for equality, but denying those who earn their stripes on merit to someone else who is less qualified based on gender or caste is kind of like commiting an injustice in the present to rectify a crime from the past. I dunno, looks kind of hazy to me.

    Eg. South Africa Cricket Team. Having a set number of black players in the side really created disharmony and sense that some guys were only on the team based on color and not on merit. Its been dropped I think and now you still see Non-whites and whites playing together doing really well, all on the side on merit. Imagine what torment it must be knowing you got picked to team based on your color, when you know you had the skills to be picked even without that color advantage?

    What you get in LIFE is based on merit, not the benefit of your last name, be it esteemed or shunned. I dont want no one to hand me something I didn’t derserve simply because of my color, gender or what have you.


    Sikhism is nothing but jattism. You are welcome to have it. No one is interested.

    Do you not realize that people who still cling to caste are not Sikhs? If you dont follow the teachings of your master, then how can one claim to be his student? Whats more important, to look like a sikh, or have the actions of a Sikh? Just because they claim they are Sikhs, does it truly mean they are? Or will you observe their actions and mannerisms to find out for yourself if that is true or not? If they are who they say they are?
    Sikhi has no caste. So please dont mock it by saying its this caste or that caste based discrimination. You or anyone else can bow to a tree,lamp, box, and call whomever you please Guru Ji if you so choose (I respect anyones freewill to worship whom they please), but do not mix it up with the teachings and guidelines set forth by the 10 Sikh Gurus (there were only 10 living Gurus by the way in Sikhi, Ravidass is not considered one of them in Sikhi. Sects dont count in my eyes. There is only one sect in my eyes=KHALSA PANTH. No derivates. Any deviation puts you on the path to a seperate religon). That doesnt mean the great follower Ravidass doesn’t get respect, but in Sikhi he is not a Guru, yet in your faith or other faiths he may be and thats fine, more power to them. I cant tell you who is or who isnt a guru in your religon, but I can surely tell you who isnt one in mine and you have the same right as well.

    There is an age old proverb.
    If you want your religion to be respected, learn to respect others.
    You people so casually speak of great gurus of other sects. You dont have tameez to write even bhakt Ravidass if not Guru Ravidass (He is a guru of millions of people which are more in number than sikhs, mind you )What if some one spoke as derogatory as your language about your respected gurus ? Wouldnt that give immense pain in your
    stomach ?

    I dont see much respect from you from that Jattism comment, but then again up to you. My job is to say something, and thats it, after that the ball is in your court to keep that view or not.
    And if I was on a Catholic blog or Hindu blog and they referred to Guru Nanak as Nanak or whatever, why would I lose sleep over it? They arent Sikhs, how can I hold them to Sikhi standards when they simply do not know. If you worship someone that Sikhs dont consider a guru (100% without a shadow of a doubt), then how can you hold other religons to your standards? Same applies if you dont accept one of the 10 Sikh gurus as a real guru. Its fine with me, because it doesnt change much in my life. So dont take it so personal if someone doesnt know about your religion and what or who you call your guru(s).
    Deragotory commments shouldnt hurt and they wouldnt hurt me good sir. What does a manmukh know? You can simply pray that they are forgiven for they know not what they do. One Love.

  45. Admin Singh says:

    With emotions so high, can people really not sparce out different issues? The issue of a non-discrimination law encompassing caste is just that. Those that are discriminated on the basis of caste will be protected under the law.

    The Mandal Commission and affirmative action should not be anywhere near this topic. Those are NOT being discussed. STICK TO THE TOPIC or get your comments deleted….All are being warned…Admin Singh

  46. Admin Singh says:

    With emotions so high, can people really not sparce out different issues? The issue of a non-discrimination law encompassing caste is just that. Those that are discriminated on the basis of caste will be protected under the law.

    The Mandal Commission and affirmative action should not be anywhere near this topic. Those are NOT being discussed. STICK TO THE TOPIC or get your comments deleted….All are being warned…Admin Singh

  47. Dostum says:

    Just came back.
    I want to end my response to this thread by writing simply this :
    All men are born equal in terms of spiritual wealth. They have the same ‘noor’ in them. No discrimination.
    Yes, social status vary person to person. Wealth is a result of past karmas. “Tapon raaj, raajon nark. The person with great virtues, ‘tap’, good deeds is given a birth in a rich and elite family, but (as the saying goes : Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely ) he becomes arrogant. Intoxicated with his status he commits such deeds which become his passport for Hell. This system continues like that.
    Only Satguru is capable of pulling one out of this vicious cycle.
    What prompted me to write against so many people was their “arrogance”. Anyone who is remotely attached to the bani knows that “haumai” has been singled out as the main reason for man’s depart from the Lord.

    It is not that sikhs do not know this. They know. But

    “There is a difference between knowing the path and walking it”
    Morpheus to Neo, The Matrix

  48. Dostum says:

    Just came back.
    I want to end my response to this thread by writing simply this :
    All men are born equal in terms of spiritual wealth. They have the same ‘noor’ in them. No discrimination.
    Yes, social status vary person to person. Wealth is a result of past karmas. “Tapon raaj, raajon nark. The person with great virtues, ‘tap’, good deeds is given a birth in a rich and elite family, but (as the saying goes : Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely ) he becomes arrogant. Intoxicated with his status he commits such deeds which become his passport for Hell. This system continues like that.
    Only Satguru is capable of pulling one out of this vicious cycle.
    What prompted me to write against so many people was their “arrogance”. Anyone who is remotely attached to the bani knows that “haumai” has been singled out as the main reason for man’s depart from the Lord.

    It is not that sikhs do not know this. They know. But

    “There is a difference between knowing the path and walking it”
    Morpheus to Neo, The Matrix

  49. Jodha says:

    You teach a valuable lesson Dostum. I hope all, especially Sikhs, reflect upon it. Fateh!

  50. Jodha says:

    You teach a valuable lesson Dostum. I hope all, especially Sikhs, reflect upon it. Fateh!

  51. Anita says:

    All i can say, casteism needs to be stopped & only with unity amongst all the Sikhs can we accomplish this! If you are a Sikh, practice what you preach. What is the big deal? Why cant we just follow the Guru Granth Sahib! Sikhs, show me your support to STOP CASTEISM and be role models to all Sikhs from different genereations, as only then can we say we are the true Sikhs!

  52. Anita says:

    All i can say, casteism needs to be stopped & only with unity amongst all the Sikhs can we accomplish this! If you are a Sikh, practice what you preach. What is the big deal? Why cant we just follow the Guru Granth Sahib! Sikhs, show me your support to STOP CASTEISM and be role models to all Sikhs from different genereations, as only then can we say we are the true Sikhs!

  53. Harinder says:

    Those who divide mankind on any ground of caste,colour ,race,nation ,religions etc etc are strictly speaking by definition not "SIKHS"

  54. Harinder says:

    Those who divide mankind on any ground of caste,colour ,race,nation ,religions etc etc are strictly speaking by definition not “SIKHS”

  55. Anita says:

    That is correct, but the truth is some Sikhs do discriminate against each other & caste is an issue!The reality is nobody wants to believe this & to live by the fundamental principles of Sikhism, caste has to be eliminated to treat every equal.

  56. Anita says:

    That is correct, but the truth is some Sikhs do discriminate against each other & caste is an issue!The reality is nobody wants to believe this & to live by the fundamental principles of Sikhism, caste has to be eliminated to treat every equal.

  57. A wellwisher says:

    You may be interested to know that caste is legislated for in some countries e.g. Australia and we all hope, soon will be here. Also that there are 336,000 Sikhs in the UK and there are 175,000 Ravidassis. Hmmm…

    A group called the Anti Caste Discrimination Alliance have carried out research into caste and caste discrimination and are soon to launch the resultant publication called The Voice of the Community – Caste and Caste Discrimination, in the House of Lords on the 11th November. Have a look at http://www.acdauk.org.uk/?page_id=91 and you will find details of it. Lobbying has been pursued and is continuing in an effort to enshrine caste as a protected characteristic in the Equality Bill. If you feel this should happen, send an email to [email protected]

    From someone who does not like the caste system or its practice anywhere in the world or in any community.

  58. A Wellwisher says:

    This has been a fine discussion on caste and especially from the Sikh arena. I take my hat off to Dostum for his eloquent and well asserted argument. To Teg who mentions the caste based murder of the Sant and violence in Vienna being blown out of all proportions, I say there are many who have seen through such flaccid statements. Murder is not and should not be condoned, nor any violence in the presence of the living Guru, the SGGS. There have been emails threatening violence in recent months sent to the Shri Guru Ravidass Temples in the UK and the police are handling this.

    You may be interested to know that caste is legislated for in some countries e.g. Australia and we all hope, soon will be here. Also that there are 336,000 Sikhs in the UK and there are 175,000 Ravidassis. Hmmm…

    From someone who does not like the caste system or its practice anywhere in the world or in any community.

  59. A Wellwisher says:

    This has been a fine discussion on caste and especially from the Sikh arena. I take my hat off to Dostum for his eloquent and well asserted argument. To Teg who mentions the caste based murder of the Sant and violence in Vienna being blown out of all proportions, I say there are many who have seen through such flaccid statements. Murder is not and should not be condoned, nor any violence in the presence of the living Guru, the SGGS. There have been emails threatening violence in recent months sent to the Shri Guru Ravidass Temples in the UK and the police are handling this.

    You may be interested to know that caste is legislated for in some countries e.g. Australia and we all hope, soon will be here. Also that there are 336,000 Sikhs in the UK and there are 175,000 Ravidassis. Hmmm…

    From someone who does not like the caste system or its practice anywhere in the world or in any community.

  60. A wellwisher says:

    You may be interested to know that caste is legislated for in some countries e.g. Australia and we all hope, soon will be here. Also that there are 336,000 Sikhs in the UK and there are 175,000 Ravidassis. Hmmm…

    A group called the Anti Caste Discrimination Alliance have carried out research into caste and caste discrimination and are soon to launch the resultant publication called The Voice of the Community – Caste and Caste Discrimination, in the House of Lords on the 11th November. Have a look at http://www.acdauk.org.uk/?page_id=91 and you will find details of it. Lobbying has been pursued and is continuing in an effort to enshrine caste as a protected characteristic in the Equality Bill. If you feel this should happen, send an email to [email protected]

    From someone who does not like the caste system or its practice anywhere in the world or in any community.