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	<title>Comments on: Sikhs and Dera SachKhand &#8211; Vienna and Jalandhar</title>
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		<title>By: Latest Update on Sikhs and Dera SachKhand from the Punjab &#124; The Langar Hall</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/europe/sikhs-and-dera-sachkhand-vienna-and-jalandhar/comment-page-2/#comment-17487</link>
		<dc:creator>Latest Update on Sikhs and Dera SachKhand from the Punjab &#124; The Langar Hall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 26 May 2009 04:06:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=3349#comment-17487</guid>
		<description>[...] Sikhs and Dera SachKhand - Vienna and Jalandhar [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Sikhs and Dera SachKhand &#8211; Vienna and Jalandhar [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Admin Singh</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/europe/sikhs-and-dera-sachkhand-vienna-and-jalandhar/comment-page-2/#comment-17460</link>
		<dc:creator>Admin Singh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 22:33:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=3349#comment-17460</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;It is rather unfortunate that as a community, we are incapable of having a discussion.  This forum is not a &#039;soapbox&#039; to make threats and make incendiary remarks.  It is meant to use the original post as a spring board for greater discussion and activism.  We understand that emotions are running high, but in our inability to have a discussion in some ways we replicate the stupidity we saw in Vienna.  We, again, hope people can read the original post, reflect, and think how to create a better tomorrow.  Until then, this post is closed....Admin Singh&lt;/strong&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>It is rather unfortunate that as a community, we are incapable of having a discussion.  This forum is not a &#8217;soapbox&#8217; to make threats and make incendiary remarks.  It is meant to use the original post as a spring board for greater discussion and activism.  We understand that emotions are running high, but in our inability to have a discussion in some ways we replicate the stupidity we saw in Vienna.  We, again, hope people can read the original post, reflect, and think how to create a better tomorrow.  Until then, this post is closed&#8230;.Admin Singh</strong></p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/europe/sikhs-and-dera-sachkhand-vienna-and-jalandhar/comment-page-2/#comment-17458</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 21:54:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=3349#comment-17458</guid>
		<description>Dear Ibadat, please keep an eye on the larger picture based on established facts. There is not ONE religion in the world without many sects and the problem starts if we don&#039;t accept this and try to compete. Instead Sikhs should work to build one community which accept differences. And the reality is that there are considerable numbers of Sikhs who follow teachings from other religions.     

There are still many Buddhists in India, and throughout the whole of Asia as well. But such people don&#039;t say I believe in Buddha so I can&#039;t nothing else. This is especially true in Nepal, where people say I a Hindu AND a Buddhist. The largest Hindu temple in the world is in Cambodia that is now overwhelming Buddhist. Should you say, Buddhists wiped Hindus out of Cambodia? (and Southeast Asia in general)We can only speculate about why religions come and go in countries and it is not interesting at all. It is about the here and now. The message of the SGGS is of timeless value and the true strenght and backbone of Sikhism. The teachings and sacrifices of the Guru&#039;s appeal to many if they only heard about these fascinating realities but if you fight about which movement is the one and only true representation of Sikhism I am afraid many people will walk away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Ibadat, please keep an eye on the larger picture based on established facts. There is not ONE religion in the world without many sects and the problem starts if we don&#8217;t accept this and try to compete. Instead Sikhs should work to build one community which accept differences. And the reality is that there are considerable numbers of Sikhs who follow teachings from other religions.     </p>
<p>There are still many Buddhists in India, and throughout the whole of Asia as well. But such people don&#8217;t say I believe in Buddha so I can&#8217;t nothing else. This is especially true in Nepal, where people say I a Hindu AND a Buddhist. The largest Hindu temple in the world is in Cambodia that is now overwhelming Buddhist. Should you say, Buddhists wiped Hindus out of Cambodia? (and Southeast Asia in general)We can only speculate about why religions come and go in countries and it is not interesting at all. It is about the here and now. The message of the SGGS is of timeless value and the true strenght and backbone of Sikhism. The teachings and sacrifices of the Guru&#8217;s appeal to many if they only heard about these fascinating realities but if you fight about which movement is the one and only true representation of Sikhism I am afraid many people will walk away.</p>
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		<title>By: an Indian Sikh</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/europe/sikhs-and-dera-sachkhand-vienna-and-jalandhar/comment-page-2/#comment-17452</link>
		<dc:creator>an Indian Sikh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 21:33:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=3349#comment-17452</guid>
		<description>&quot;It amazes me that all self-proclaimed “indian sikhs” above (and enemies of the Sikh panth), are hell-bent on starting their own version of the Sikh faith.&quot;

The hatred you ooze out of every word that you type never ceases to amaze me either, Mr. Gill. May God bless you with patience so that you keep your calm even when you are tortured. That&#039;s what Guru Arjan Dev Ji stands as a symbol of. Guru Ram Das Ji built Golden Temple with a Muslim peer laying the foundation ... and four doors welcoming people of all creed and religion ... and today, you are maligning Hindus on the whole as a people. Good for you. God bless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It amazes me that all self-proclaimed “indian sikhs” above (and enemies of the Sikh panth), are hell-bent on starting their own version of the Sikh faith.&#8221;</p>
<p>The hatred you ooze out of every word that you type never ceases to amaze me either, Mr. Gill. May God bless you with patience so that you keep your calm even when you are tortured. That&#8217;s what Guru Arjan Dev Ji stands as a symbol of. Guru Ram Das Ji built Golden Temple with a Muslim peer laying the foundation &#8230; and four doors welcoming people of all creed and religion &#8230; and today, you are maligning Hindus on the whole as a people. Good for you. God bless.</p>
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		<title>By: Suresh Chopra</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/europe/sikhs-and-dera-sachkhand-vienna-and-jalandhar/comment-page-2/#comment-17447</link>
		<dc:creator>Suresh Chopra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 21:18:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=3349#comment-17447</guid>
		<description>Ibadat, you make a valid point with regards to there being one jyot. However, I feel that it is the same jyot which enlightened the many &#039;baghats&#039; that made significant contributions to Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. They (Kabir Ji, Ravidass, Baba Farid, Sain...) were also responsible for propogating and preaching much of the ideology and philosophy around the time that Guru Nanak was around. Guru Nanak Ji met with some of these Baghats and collected their works for the collation of the Granth Sahib. These &#039;Baghats&#039; (meaning worshipers of god) were also Gurus (meaning teacher) in that they also preached and taught the word of god to people. 

If you have read about the history and oppression of the dalit and shudra people you may have some understanding of why they &#039;are hell bent on starting their own version of the sikh faith&#039;. It is called survival. Although our faith is built on values such as equality and tolerance this did not always exist and low caste people were excluded and alienated from soceity by sikhs as well as the hindus. As a result they identify with specific baghats who reflect their background and set up religious institutions in their name. 

I believe that it is time that we moved on and came together as one, under the banner of sikh. However, we all need to have the tolerence and understanding which is required in such a complex and sensetive task. Nothing will be achieved if members of sikh sects are told that they are wrong. Any dialogue will have to be made with love and understanding of peoples views and needs. God Bless</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ibadat, you make a valid point with regards to there being one jyot. However, I feel that it is the same jyot which enlightened the many &#8216;baghats&#8217; that made significant contributions to Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. They (Kabir Ji, Ravidass, Baba Farid, Sain&#8230;) were also responsible for propogating and preaching much of the ideology and philosophy around the time that Guru Nanak was around. Guru Nanak Ji met with some of these Baghats and collected their works for the collation of the Granth Sahib. These &#8216;Baghats&#8217; (meaning worshipers of god) were also Gurus (meaning teacher) in that they also preached and taught the word of god to people. </p>
<p>If you have read about the history and oppression of the dalit and shudra people you may have some understanding of why they &#8216;are hell bent on starting their own version of the sikh faith&#8217;. It is called survival. Although our faith is built on values such as equality and tolerance this did not always exist and low caste people were excluded and alienated from soceity by sikhs as well as the hindus. As a result they identify with specific baghats who reflect their background and set up religious institutions in their name. </p>
<p>I believe that it is time that we moved on and came together as one, under the banner of sikh. However, we all need to have the tolerence and understanding which is required in such a complex and sensetive task. Nothing will be achieved if members of sikh sects are told that they are wrong. Any dialogue will have to be made with love and understanding of peoples views and needs. God Bless</p>
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		<title>By: 121312</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/europe/sikhs-and-dera-sachkhand-vienna-and-jalandhar/comment-page-2/#comment-17438</link>
		<dc:creator>121312</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 20:55:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=3349#comment-17438</guid>
		<description>Do you think that the Dalits have been deliberately ignored by the sikh leadership who are mainly jatts? because if the dalits were openly welcomed into the sikh community than the predominently jatt leadership would lose their influence because there are way more dalits than jatts. The reason I ask is because caste is unfortunately still prevelant within the commmunity. Here in canada, there are smaller gurdwara&#039;s that specific castes only go to. Do you think that caste politics is an issue?, do you think that people in gurdwara committee&#039;s usually vote for people from their own caste?  It is sad that there is so much division.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Do you think that the Dalits have been deliberately ignored by the sikh leadership who are mainly jatts? because if the dalits were openly welcomed into the sikh community than the predominently jatt leadership would lose their influence because there are way more dalits than jatts. The reason I ask is because caste is unfortunately still prevelant within the commmunity. Here in canada, there are smaller gurdwara&#8217;s that specific castes only go to. Do you think that caste politics is an issue?, do you think that people in gurdwara committee&#8217;s usually vote for people from their own caste?  It is sad that there is so much division.</p>
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		<title>By: Observer</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/europe/sikhs-and-dera-sachkhand-vienna-and-jalandhar/comment-page-2/#comment-17434</link>
		<dc:creator>Observer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 20:37:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=3349#comment-17434</guid>
		<description>On a side note, one shouldn&#039;t condone the violence in India as a result of this event. Its sad that whenever such things happen, the first thing the public resorts to is to damage public property. 

Easier said that done obviously, but just making a point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On a side note, one shouldn&#8217;t condone the violence in India as a result of this event. Its sad that whenever such things happen, the first thing the public resorts to is to damage public property. </p>
<p>Easier said that done obviously, but just making a point.</p>
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		<title>By: Punjabi</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/europe/sikhs-and-dera-sachkhand-vienna-and-jalandhar/comment-page-2/#comment-17433</link>
		<dc:creator>Punjabi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 20:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=3349#comment-17433</guid>
		<description>I totally agree with Ibadat Singh about &quot;side-lining&quot; the 9 Gurus. Our Dasham Guru was a Sant-Sipahi and he established Khalsa, so what is wrong in talking about Khalsa. And, even if u believe that we are sidelining other Gurus, then I would ask you to follow even one of the 10 gurus and you&#039;ll never face a problem in your life. Because, you won&#039;t look at it as a problem, would look at as an opportunity and a challenge to prove your devotion to God.
And, yes the more anyone will try to uproot Sikhism, the more the Sikhs will have faith in it and the more it is going to be established.

&lt;strong&gt;And, one day with these inner and outer conflicts, Sikhs will realize the Khalsa way and that is when Khalsa will rise.&lt;/strong&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree with Ibadat Singh about &#8220;side-lining&#8221; the 9 Gurus. Our Dasham Guru was a Sant-Sipahi and he established Khalsa, so what is wrong in talking about Khalsa. And, even if u believe that we are sidelining other Gurus, then I would ask you to follow even one of the 10 gurus and you&#8217;ll never face a problem in your life. Because, you won&#8217;t look at it as a problem, would look at as an opportunity and a challenge to prove your devotion to God.<br />
And, yes the more anyone will try to uproot Sikhism, the more the Sikhs will have faith in it and the more it is going to be established.</p>
<p><strong>And, one day with these inner and outer conflicts, Sikhs will realize the Khalsa way and that is when Khalsa will rise.</strong></p>
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		<title>By: Miss Kaur</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/europe/sikhs-and-dera-sachkhand-vienna-and-jalandhar/comment-page-2/#comment-17431</link>
		<dc:creator>Miss Kaur</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 20:26:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=3349#comment-17431</guid>
		<description>For any Amritdharee Sikh Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is their father; the person that they choose to show them the path to reaching God. If you truly believe that Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is your father then you would not allow anyone to disrespect them in any way shape or form.

People that follow these cults and sects are truly misguided and the so called &quot;sants/babas&quot; should be stopped. No I am not saying that you need to kill them or use violence but they need to be stopped. For some unknown reason people feel they need to follow some baba around to help them spiritually when they already have a perfect Guru. Perhaps re-education for these people is the most important issue, then perhaps these cults and sects will come to an end.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For any Amritdharee Sikh Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is their father; the person that they choose to show them the path to reaching God. If you truly believe that Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is your father then you would not allow anyone to disrespect them in any way shape or form.</p>
<p>People that follow these cults and sects are truly misguided and the so called &#8220;sants/babas&#8221; should be stopped. No I am not saying that you need to kill them or use violence but they need to be stopped. For some unknown reason people feel they need to follow some baba around to help them spiritually when they already have a perfect Guru. Perhaps re-education for these people is the most important issue, then perhaps these cults and sects will come to an end.</p>
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		<title>By: Ibadat Singh Gill</title>
		<link>http://thelangarhall.com/europe/sikhs-and-dera-sachkhand-vienna-and-jalandhar/comment-page-2/#comment-17430</link>
		<dc:creator>Ibadat Singh Gill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 May 2009 20:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thelangarhall.com/?p=3349#comment-17430</guid>
		<description>This is starting to get out of control...and off topic.  The above comment re: &quot;other 9 gurus&quot; is ridiculous.  All Gurus had the same Jyot!!!  &quot;Das Guruaan di ik jyot&quot;.  To refer to Dasven Patshahi is to reflect the embodiement and culmination of Guru Nanak&#039;s ideology.  The same enlightened rooh was in ALL 10 Gurus.  Therefore, each Guru&#039;s ideology/mat can NEVER be bifurcated from another.  This is Sikhi 101, guys.  It amazes me that all self-proclaimed &quot;indian sikhs&quot; above (and enemies of the Sikh panth), are hell-bent on starting their own version of the Sikh faith.  Hindus may have succeeded with wiping out Buddhism from the country of its birth, but this will NEVER happen with Sikhs my friends!  The more Mir Mannu tried to cut us down, the more stronger we became - it&#039;s the same in this day and age.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is starting to get out of control&#8230;and off topic.  The above comment re: &#8220;other 9 gurus&#8221; is ridiculous.  All Gurus had the same Jyot!!!  &#8220;Das Guruaan di ik jyot&#8221;.  To refer to Dasven Patshahi is to reflect the embodiement and culmination of Guru Nanak&#8217;s ideology.  The same enlightened rooh was in ALL 10 Gurus.  Therefore, each Guru&#8217;s ideology/mat can NEVER be bifurcated from another.  This is Sikhi 101, guys.  It amazes me that all self-proclaimed &#8220;indian sikhs&#8221; above (and enemies of the Sikh panth), are hell-bent on starting their own version of the Sikh faith.  Hindus may have succeeded with wiping out Buddhism from the country of its birth, but this will NEVER happen with Sikhs my friends!  The more Mir Mannu tried to cut us down, the more stronger we became &#8211; it&#8217;s the same in this day and age.</p>
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