‘Thinking the Unthinkable’ in Kashmir – Freedom?
While those in the diaspora are less likely to follow, many in South Asia have had one eye on the Beijing Olympics and the other looking at the current situation in Kashmir.
This past Friday hundreds of thousands of Kashmiri protestors took to the street calling for ‘azadi’ (freedom) from the tyranny of the Indian state. Viewers in India have looked on in surprise and many different reactions can be found in the Indian press. I will highlight one.
For some more context, Al-Jazeera English has some excellent news analysis. It is a bit lengthy, but well-worth the watch:
The latest spark (although deeper causes have been festering due to Delhi’s highhanded treatment of the Kashmiri people) in Kashmir has been summarized as:
The trouble began in June when the Kashmir administration announced a plan to donate land to a Hindu shrine in the Muslim-majority Kashmir valley.
Muslims in the valley saw the move as a ploy by mainly Hindu India to occupy their land and staged huge protests, forcing a reversal of the plan.
But the decision to scrap the move angered Hindus further south in Jammu, who viewed it as an act of appeasement, prompting hardliners to block the region’s main highway — a protest that shut the Kashmir valley.
“The political process has not been able to defuse the situation and now we’re at a very critical point where we have a very disturbing communal divide,” said Bhaskar.
Since June, at least 31 Muslims and three Hindus have died in police firing on protesters in Kashmir and Jammu areas.[link]
The difference in deaths provides a glimpse of the army’s difference in treatment.
While the mainstream Indian press has called for the government to continue its failed policies of state violence to pacify the Kashmiri people, one voice from an influential Indian elite has called for the time to “Think the Unthinkable.”
Vir Sanghvi, editorial director, of the daily Hindustan Times has become the center of controversy by calling for a plebiscite in Kashmir. He has become the target of a number of Hindu fascists. As a staunch Indian nationalist, coming out of the elite classes, Sanghvi makes a case against continued subjugation and colonization of Kashmir based on the economic drain to India and the conflict’s blot on India’s ‘new century.’
I reckon we should hold a referendum in the Valley. Let the Kashmiris determine their own destiny. If they want to stay in India, they are welcome. But if they don’t, then we have no moral right to force them to remain. If they vote for integration with Pakistan, all this will mean is that Azad Kashmir will gain a little more territory. If they opt for independence, they will last for about 15 minutes without the billions that India has showered on them. But it will be their decision.
Whatever happens, how can India lose? If you believe in democracy, then giving Kashmiris the right to self-determination is the correct thing to do. And even if you don’t, surely we will be better off being rid of this constant, painful strain on our resources, our lives, and our honour as a nation?
This is India’s century. We have the world to conquer — and the means to do it. Kashmir is a 20th century problem. We cannot let it drag us down and bleed us as we assume our rightful place in the world.
It’s time to think the unthinkable.[link]
To hear such a voice from the Indian elite classes should be reason to pay attention. Such a voice was never heard in the 1980s during the Sikh movement against state persecution in Punjab. Regardless of Indian public opinion, if the day should ever arise that India’s business and capitalist elites no longer believe the Kashmir project is worth the cost, an Azad Kashmir will become a reality. Sikhs and other promoters of democracy and human rights should be paying attention.
29 Responses to “‘Thinking the Unthinkable’ in Kashmir – Freedom?”
Vir sanghavi is a so called intellectuals and should be hanged for writing a seditios article.Period.
[And what should happen to you Arun on account of your bad grammar and spelling mistakes? Keep the conversation civil or your comments will be deleted…Admin Singh]
The situation in Kashmir continues to intensify as the people show no sign of pacification.
It seems that despite the Jammu and Kashmir High Court chief justice ruling that the suspension of SMS text messaging should not be curbed due to the current situation in Kashmir, the Indian Supreme Court has just ruled in favor of the suspension of text messaging.
I am assuming that text messaging is one of the main avenues for creating political flash rallies and spreading news in the military-dominated state.
I have discussed the importance of teledensity before, but here we see a "democracy" clamping down on its "citizens" from communicating with one another. While one could argue about the colonial context, such a situation seems reminiscent of the events leading to the Jallianwala Bagh massacre.
Earlier Notes:
Kashmir has seen a long panorama of killings past 20 years which human rights groups count upto 70 000 . now since past month unarmed civilians have been killed and children of age five havnt been spared either. Now huow can india boast to be largest democracy of world but can be largest MOCK democracy. we kashmiris appeal to all human sould to help us and cut ties with those pseudo secularists.
The situation in Kashmir continues to intensify as the people show no sign of pacification.
It seems that despite the Jammu and Kashmir High Court chief justice ruling that the suspension of SMS text messaging should not be curbed due to the current situation in Kashmir, the Indian Supreme Court has just ruled in favor of the suspension of text messaging.
I am assuming that text messaging is one of the main avenues for creating political flash rallies and spreading news in the military-dominated state.
I have discussed the importance of teledensity before, but here we see a “democracy” clamping down on its “citizens” from communicating with one another. While one could argue about the colonial context, such a situation seems reminiscent of the events leading to the Jallianwala Bagh massacre.
Earlier Notes:
Kashmir has seen a long panorama of killings past 20 years which human rights groups count upto 70 000 . now since past month unarmed civilians have been killed and children of age five havnt been spared either. Now huow can india boast to be largest democracy of world but can be largest MOCK democracy. we kashmiris appeal to all human sould to help us and cut ties with those pseudo secularists.
Vir sanghavi is a so called intellectuals and should be hanged for writing a seditios article.Period.
[And what should happen to you Arun on account of your bad grammar and spelling mistakes? Keep the conversation civil or your comments will be deleted…Admin Singh]
Under current circumstances I feel India will do whatever it takes for it's face saving. Whatever means whatever!!
Now whole Kashmir is already under indefinite curfew.
No news coverage to people for valley
and a very limited media access for rest of the world.
It's free hand for Armed forces. Something like seize of Punjab in May-Jun 1984.
Indian rulers just do not what to talk about accord they had with Kashmiri people regarding right of self-determination. They don't want to talk about that in recent Lahore talks, India (BJP ruled) agreed to Kashmir as being a disputed territory. The rulers of India do not mind using "Kashmiris" and "Terrorists" in same tone.
But those nationalists, still call it "integral part of India", "not a inch of India will be given". I don't know when it became part of India. Or the better question would be please define "India"???
Instead this attitude of India towards Kashmiris is further drifting them away from India.
HI,
first of all one thing let be clear, When india became independence we choose not to discriminate any religion and go on the path of democracy. But where as pakistan choose to be a religious state and we are seeing the consequences of it.
Now coming to the kashmir issue, just because muslims are in majority and those group decide independence one cannot think that one. We have to go to the history before that. Who made the kashmir pandits ( lakhs of them fled ) during the militancy period of 80's and 90's.
Why don't the muslic brothers understand tht the future of kashmir is bright by being in india not in pakistan. Cant they evaluate and analyse the Indian economic and Pakistan conditions. What is the problem in allowing a small forest land to use for piligirms. Is tere any discrimination of that sort for muslims in any part of the india. Muslims are free to have mosques and religious activities in any part of india and no hindus are opposing. Then why is that discrimination. Even the Indian constitution has provided special powers n status to the kashmir state.
If the so called separatist leaders think they are democratic and gives value to the freedom then whats tthe problem with a small piece of land being utililsed for good purpose.
Our muslim brohers should leave their past behind and come to the main stream. because of their leaders thinking nly the muslims in india are not well educated and are backward in terms of social and economic front. I request all my beloved muslim friends to be a part of rising economic glory. Get educated well be happy and i can assue that we in india never treat kashmirs as separate but as our brothers.
Shun the politicians whether it is Congress or BJP. BJP is a bad one they are communal and COngress is more dangerous their policy is divide and rule. Elect good educated and visionary leader who can think of valleys development in social and economic fronts. We need better standard of livings, food cloth, infrastructure and all…
Hope this is understood
Under current circumstances I feel India will do whatever it takes for it’s face saving. Whatever means whatever!!
Now whole Kashmir is already under indefinite curfew.
No news coverage to people for valley
and a very limited media access for rest of the world.
It’s free hand for Armed forces. Something like seize of Punjab in May-Jun 1984.
Indian rulers just do not what to talk about accord they had with Kashmiri people regarding right of self-determination. They don’t want to talk about that in recent Lahore talks, India (BJP ruled) agreed to Kashmir as being a disputed territory. The rulers of India do not mind using “Kashmiris” and “Terrorists” in same tone.
But those nationalists, still call it “integral part of India”, “not a inch of India will be given”. I don’t know when it became part of India. Or the better question would be please define “India”???
Instead this attitude of India towards Kashmiris is further drifting them away from India.
I think the days of binaries Janardhan are over. Few Kashmiris talk in terms of "Pakistan" or "India." They are seeking their own 'azadi.' They are seeking self-determination.
HI,
first of all one thing let be clear, When india became independence we choose not to discriminate any religion and go on the path of democracy. But where as pakistan choose to be a religious state and we are seeing the consequences of it.
Now coming to the kashmir issue, just because muslims are in majority and those group decide independence one cannot think that one. We have to go to the history before that. Who made the kashmir pandits ( lakhs of them fled ) during the militancy period of 80’s and 90’s.
Why don’t the muslic brothers understand tht the future of kashmir is bright by being in india not in pakistan. Cant they evaluate and analyse the Indian economic and Pakistan conditions. What is the problem in allowing a small forest land to use for piligirms. Is tere any discrimination of that sort for muslims in any part of the india. Muslims are free to have mosques and religious activities in any part of india and no hindus are opposing. Then why is that discrimination. Even the Indian constitution has provided special powers n status to the kashmir state.
If the so called separatist leaders think they are democratic and gives value to the freedom then whats tthe problem with a small piece of land being utililsed for good purpose.
Our muslim brohers should leave their past behind and come to the main stream. because of their leaders thinking nly the muslims in india are not well educated and are backward in terms of social and economic front. I request all my beloved muslim friends to be a part of rising economic glory. Get educated well be happy and i can assue that we in india never treat kashmirs as separate but as our brothers.
Shun the politicians whether it is Congress or BJP. BJP is a bad one they are communal and COngress is more dangerous their policy is divide and rule. Elect good educated and visionary leader who can think of valleys development in social and economic fronts. We need better standard of livings, food cloth, infrastructure and all…
Hope this is understood
I think the days of binaries Janardhan are over. Few Kashmiris talk in terms of “Pakistan” or “India.” They are seeking their own ‘azadi.’ They are seeking self-determination.
IN the history some times its better to act against the will of few select community people. Few muslim people in Kashmir valley cannot hold india to ransom by demanding Azadi, if in these days binaries are not there then first let them get the azadi from the Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and then they would have moral right to demand the same from india…
In Democracy decisions are not taken based on the religious aspects and are not certainly taken in a regional aspect. If there needs to be a referandum on fate of kashmir let all the referendum be across India rather than in kashmir because every ttax payer has right to participate. Indian tax payers money is going in a big way to kashmir. The Central grants for instance are almost thousands of crores rupees every year. WHerer is that money the so called Kashmir leaders inspite of understaking the massive development projects are no need to say… what they might be doing with that money.
In india every community people caan ask for self determination as per my friend Mewa singh. IF we allow this to happen these there is no means of India surviving…
SO its better to change the system rather than toing in their tone for the so call self determination. What else does the freedom means? What kind of democracy does they want? Pakistan kind or taliban kind? For god sake no i guess…
So a very few people are playing with the emotions of muslilms in kashmir. The day when muslims in india feel that country is frist and then religion their development will come. Not because of discrimination to them ( in the first place it has never been ) but because of their openess to the society. For instance i have been living with them since the childhood and i know the ground relities… and for instance tere are many cases that muslim population had voted the candidate who is muslim and mainly with a criminal background rather than a well educated christian. What i mean to say is they need to believe in the leaders of the other communities. I dont want to mention the leaders of other community but i am being forced to highlight the reforms needed inthat community. Education and awareness is the potent tool for empowerment which my brotherly muslim community in india lacks ( india means kashmir also ).
SO its better to concentrate on those aspects rather than these so called separatist protests and we ignore them… if it is for a genuine developkmennt of the kasmir then we are more than willing to hear
[quote comment="4448"]HI,
first of all one thing let be clear, When india became independence we choose not to discriminate any religion and go on the path of democracy. But where as pakistan choose to be a religious state and we are seeing the consequences of it.
Now coming to the kashmir issue, just because muslims are in majority and those group decide independence one cannot think that one. We have to go to the history before that. Who made the kashmir pandits ( lakhs of them fled ) during the militancy period of 80's and 90's.
Why don't the muslic brothers understand tht the future of kashmir is bright by being in india not in pakistan. Cant they evaluate and analyse the Indian economic and Pakistan conditions. What is the problem in allowing a small forest land to use for piligirms. Is tere any discrimination of that sort for muslims in any part of the india. Muslims are free to have mosques and religious activities in any part of india and no hindus are opposing. Then why is that discrimination. Even the Indian constitution has provided special powers n status to the kashmir state.
If the so called separatist leaders think they are democratic and gives value to the freedom then whats tthe problem with a small piece of land being utililsed for good purpose.
Our muslim brohers should leave their past behind and come to the main stream. because of their leaders thinking nly the muslims in india are not well educated and are backward in terms of social and economic front. I request all my beloved muslim friends to be a part of rising economic glory. Get educated well be happy and i can assue that we in india never treat kashmirs as separate but as our brothers.
Shun the politicians whether it is Congress or BJP. BJP is a bad one they are communal and COngress is more dangerous their policy is divide and rule. Elect good educated and visionary leader who can think of valleys development in social and economic fronts. We need better standard of livings, food cloth, infrastructure and all…
Hope this is understood[/quote]
Is sixty one years not sufficient enough time for India to prove to its "occupied land" that they are better choice over Pakistan???
And if they seriously did something for the state in last six decades then why were they so hesitant in giving people right to self determination.
Why they let the state boil like anything!!! Right now the frustation with India is at its peek.
Now back to you remark, calling India "secular" is talking about a dream which is abandoned almost half century back by India.
The nationalist movement of Hindustan as laid down by Vivekanand and others of his time, pleaded to unite all Hindus for better future. The process was not that of building egalitarian society but a more stronger Hindu society. It was an attempt to recover whatever the majority religion of the land lost under centuries of Moguls/British rule. A society in which you are good as long as you are not seen as an obstruction in growth of majority. So those who do not accept Brahminical supremacy are actually traitors of the land.
That's exactly what happened when Arya Smaji's attacked Sikhism by early decade of last century. Some Sikh came out strongly and presented their case that they have their unique identity & belief which is very different from Hinduism. They were labeled traitors of "Bharat Mata".
If my Hindu friend don't lie then they admit that they hate Muslims or "Mulle" and wish they just go out of India.
Muslim in India has already fallen from one of the most affluent class of India to one of most backward class of India. The language Urdu which used to be primary mode of communication in Indian pre-independence era, now almost trashed.
So the majority religion growth is at expense of other smaller ones.
So unless India changes its attitude towards these autonomous existences, democracy will not be successful. Attempt to color all in single color is big mistake.
In general, India need to give more autonomy to these smaller distinct groups that are now part of it. And their right to choose their future growth has to be respected. Otherwise like British were thrown out of India, any new occupant can also be.
My friend Mandeep singh has pointed about the growth of majority onthe expenses of minority.
I would like to know on what expenses i being a hindu has grown. What injustice i have inflicted to my brothers. The only point i was highlighting is that the muslim community should be more open. Instead of sending their sons to madarasas they should be sending their sons n daughters to english schools. We majority people have never grown by supressing the minority people. And in Andhra pradesh ( Inidian state ) thousands of farmers has sold their lands to send their sons and daughters to the engineering and medical profession. So the majority hindus have grown with tremendous dedication and by empowering themselves through education, but not by cheating the minority.THese are the facts as i am from the rural background.
To tell you some facts
A hindu doesnt get any special offers or privilages to go to his holiest piligrim places where as a Muslim ( through HAJ Board ) gets and the christians gets ( recently in AP govt has sent them to jerusulem )
Most of the Hindu temples are under governmet control which manages the properties and funds of temples. But there is no as such with Mosques and Churchs.
A muslim or christian can become a star in india with his own talent and efforts. But in other religious countries like pakistan that is a meare impossible.
Any one can buy land in any place of india irrespective of religion.
Now what i am commenting is why does there is no will from the muslim community to educate and empower their families. With out proper education how can one expect a good job in governmennt sectors in this today's world and leave about the private sector where the competition is very much. And now without the proper education and good job what does these youth supposed to do. So there should be a will from the parents to send their sons and daughters to better schools.
I am not telling that there are not hardliners in hindu community but their voice doesnt represent all in the same way as the separatists.
So and again i am not ging back to the history as every community has has bad patches…
the matter of this hour is proper empowerment of the communities and their openess
And to be frank there is no feeling of hindus that muslims should get out as my frnd Mandeep was telling.
India;s existense lies in mutual coexistence and development. Now one community goes well in social and economic front and other community doesnt go. For that one cant blaame other.
certain instances like no uniform civil code doesnt empower the brotherly muslim community for better social aspect with the shariat law. An instance in UP one Mullah issue fatwah for the women that the father in law is her husband and his husband is her son just because the father in law raped his sons wife. Now with such heights of maturity in that community they are prone to anti social elements..
So i my plea is join the mainstream and think out of box get educated and know the world…
And other thing.. indian government has provided enough funds and grants to the Kashmir. COntrary to what my friend is claiming
( http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/Fullcover… )
we have tried everything. Even today, the state enjoys a special status. Under Article 370 of our Constitution, with the exception of defence, foreign policy, and communication, no law enacted by parliament has any legitimacy in Kashmir unless the state government gives its consent. The state is the only one in India to have its own Constitution and the President of India cannot issue directions to the state government in exercise of the executive power of the Union as he can in every other state. Kashmiri are Indian citizens but Indians are not necessarily Kashmiri citizens. We cannot vote for elections to their assembly or own any property in Kashmir.
Then, there is the money. Bihar gets per capita central assistance of Rs 876 per year. Kashmir gets over ten times more: Rs 9,754 per year. While in Bihar and other states, this assistance is mainly in the forms of loans to the state, in Kashmir 90 per cent is an outright grant. Kashmir’s entire Five Year Plan expenditure is met by the Indian taxpayer. In addition, New Delhi keeps throwing more and more money at the state: in 2004, the Prime Minister gave Kashmir another $ 5 billion for development.
Kashmiris are happy to take the money and the special rights but they argue that India has been unfair to them because no free political process has developed. And, it is true that we have rigged elections in Kashmir. But, it is now nearly a decade since any rigging was alleged. Nobody disputes that the last election was fair. Moreover, even though the Congress got more seats than the PDP, the Chief Ministership went to Mufti Mohammad Sayeed as a gesture.
Given that Kashmir has the best deal of any Indian state, is there anything more we can do? Kashmiris talk about more autonomy. But I don’t see a) what more we can give them and b) how much difference it will make.
So it should make sense when one says anything…
IN the history some times its better to act against the will of few select community people. Few muslim people in Kashmir valley cannot hold india to ransom by demanding Azadi, if in these days binaries are not there then first let them get the azadi from the Pakistan Occupied Kashmir and then they would have moral right to demand the same from india…
In Democracy decisions are not taken based on the religious aspects and are not certainly taken in a regional aspect. If there needs to be a referandum on fate of kashmir let all the referendum be across India rather than in kashmir because every ttax payer has right to participate. Indian tax payers money is going in a big way to kashmir. The Central grants for instance are almost thousands of crores rupees every year. WHerer is that money the so called Kashmir leaders inspite of understaking the massive development projects are no need to say… what they might be doing with that money.
In india every community people caan ask for self determination as per my friend Mewa singh. IF we allow this to happen these there is no means of India surviving…
SO its better to change the system rather than toing in their tone for the so call self determination. What else does the freedom means? What kind of democracy does they want? Pakistan kind or taliban kind? For god sake no i guess…
So a very few people are playing with the emotions of muslilms in kashmir. The day when muslims in india feel that country is frist and then religion their development will come. Not because of discrimination to them ( in the first place it has never been ) but because of their openess to the society. For instance i have been living with them since the childhood and i know the ground relities… and for instance tere are many cases that muslim population had voted the candidate who is muslim and mainly with a criminal background rather than a well educated christian. What i mean to say is they need to believe in the leaders of the other communities. I dont want to mention the leaders of other community but i am being forced to highlight the reforms needed inthat community. Education and awareness is the potent tool for empowerment which my brotherly muslim community in india lacks ( india means kashmir also ).
SO its better to concentrate on those aspects rather than these so called separatist protests and we ignore them… if it is for a genuine developkmennt of the kasmir then we are more than willing to hear
[quote comment=”4448″]HI,
first of all one thing let be clear, When india became independence we choose not to discriminate any religion and go on the path of democracy. But where as pakistan choose to be a religious state and we are seeing the consequences of it.
Now coming to the kashmir issue, just because muslims are in majority and those group decide independence one cannot think that one. We have to go to the history before that. Who made the kashmir pandits ( lakhs of them fled ) during the militancy period of 80’s and 90’s.
Why don’t the muslic brothers understand tht the future of kashmir is bright by being in india not in pakistan. Cant they evaluate and analyse the Indian economic and Pakistan conditions. What is the problem in allowing a small forest land to use for piligirms. Is tere any discrimination of that sort for muslims in any part of the india. Muslims are free to have mosques and religious activities in any part of india and no hindus are opposing. Then why is that discrimination. Even the Indian constitution has provided special powers n status to the kashmir state.
If the so called separatist leaders think they are democratic and gives value to the freedom then whats tthe problem with a small piece of land being utililsed for good purpose.
Our muslim brohers should leave their past behind and come to the main stream. because of their leaders thinking nly the muslims in india are not well educated and are backward in terms of social and economic front. I request all my beloved muslim friends to be a part of rising economic glory. Get educated well be happy and i can assue that we in india never treat kashmirs as separate but as our brothers.
Shun the politicians whether it is Congress or BJP. BJP is a bad one they are communal and COngress is more dangerous their policy is divide and rule. Elect good educated and visionary leader who can think of valleys development in social and economic fronts. We need better standard of livings, food cloth, infrastructure and all…
Hope this is understood[/quote]
Is sixty one years not sufficient enough time for India to prove to its “occupied land” that they are better choice over Pakistan???
And if they seriously did something for the state in last six decades then why were they so hesitant in giving people right to self determination.
Why they let the state boil like anything!!! Right now the frustation with India is at its peek.
Now back to you remark, calling India “secular” is talking about a dream which is abandoned almost half century back by India.
The nationalist movement of Hindustan as laid down by Vivekanand and others of his time, pleaded to unite all Hindus for better future. The process was not that of building egalitarian society but a more stronger Hindu society. It was an attempt to recover whatever the majority religion of the land lost under centuries of Moguls/British rule. A society in which you are good as long as you are not seen as an obstruction in growth of majority. So those who do not accept Brahminical supremacy are actually traitors of the land.
That’s exactly what happened when Arya Smaji’s attacked Sikhism by early decade of last century. Some Sikh came out strongly and presented their case that they have their unique identity & belief which is very different from Hinduism. They were labeled traitors of “Bharat Mata”.
If my Hindu friend don’t lie then they admit that they hate Muslims or “Mulle” and wish they just go out of India.
Muslim in India has already fallen from one of the most affluent class of India to one of most backward class of India. The language Urdu which used to be primary mode of communication in Indian pre-independence era, now almost trashed.
So the majority religion growth is at expense of other smaller ones.
So unless India changes its attitude towards these autonomous existences, democracy will not be successful. Attempt to color all in single color is big mistake.
In general, India need to give more autonomy to these smaller distinct groups that are now part of it. And their right to choose their future growth has to be respected. Otherwise like British were thrown out of India, any new occupant can also be.
My friend Mandeep singh has pointed about the growth of majority onthe expenses of minority.
I would like to know on what expenses i being a hindu has grown. What injustice i have inflicted to my brothers. The only point i was highlighting is that the muslim community should be more open. Instead of sending their sons to madarasas they should be sending their sons n daughters to english schools. We majority people have never grown by supressing the minority people. And in Andhra pradesh ( Inidian state ) thousands of farmers has sold their lands to send their sons and daughters to the engineering and medical profession. So the majority hindus have grown with tremendous dedication and by empowering themselves through education, but not by cheating the minority.THese are the facts as i am from the rural background.
To tell you some facts
A hindu doesnt get any special offers or privilages to go to his holiest piligrim places where as a Muslim ( through HAJ Board ) gets and the christians gets ( recently in AP govt has sent them to jerusulem )
Most of the Hindu temples are under governmet control which manages the properties and funds of temples. But there is no as such with Mosques and Churchs.
A muslim or christian can become a star in india with his own talent and efforts. But in other religious countries like pakistan that is a meare impossible.
Any one can buy land in any place of india irrespective of religion.
Now what i am commenting is why does there is no will from the muslim community to educate and empower their families. With out proper education how can one expect a good job in governmennt sectors in this today’s world and leave about the private sector where the competition is very much. And now without the proper education and good job what does these youth supposed to do. So there should be a will from the parents to send their sons and daughters to better schools.
I am not telling that there are not hardliners in hindu community but their voice doesnt represent all in the same way as the separatists.
So and again i am not ging back to the history as every community has has bad patches…
the matter of this hour is proper empowerment of the communities and their openess
And to be frank there is no feeling of hindus that muslims should get out as my frnd Mandeep was telling.
India;s existense lies in mutual coexistence and development. Now one community goes well in social and economic front and other community doesnt go. For that one cant blaame other.
certain instances like no uniform civil code doesnt empower the brotherly muslim community for better social aspect with the shariat law. An instance in UP one Mullah issue fatwah for the women that the father in law is her husband and his husband is her son just because the father in law raped his sons wife. Now with such heights of maturity in that community they are prone to anti social elements..
So i my plea is join the mainstream and think out of box get educated and know the world…
And other thing.. indian government has provided enough funds and grants to the Kashmir. COntrary to what my friend is claiming
( http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/FullcoverageStoryPage.aspx?sectionName=&id=37ea1a37-c222-41e7-8b19-859b5fd34cbdAmarnathLandRow_Special&&Headline=Think+the+Unthinkable )
we have tried everything. Even today, the state enjoys a special status. Under Article 370 of our Constitution, with the exception of defence, foreign policy, and communication, no law enacted by parliament has any legitimacy in Kashmir unless the state government gives its consent. The state is the only one in India to have its own Constitution and the President of India cannot issue directions to the state government in exercise of the executive power of the Union as he can in every other state. Kashmiri are Indian citizens but Indians are not necessarily Kashmiri citizens. We cannot vote for elections to their assembly or own any property in Kashmir.
Then, there is the money. Bihar gets per capita central assistance of Rs 876 per year. Kashmir gets over ten times more: Rs 9,754 per year. While in Bihar and other states, this assistance is mainly in the forms of loans to the state, in Kashmir 90 per cent is an outright grant. Kashmir’s entire Five Year Plan expenditure is met by the Indian taxpayer. In addition, New Delhi keeps throwing more and more money at the state: in 2004, the Prime Minister gave Kashmir another $ 5 billion for development.
Kashmiris are happy to take the money and the special rights but they argue that India has been unfair to them because no free political process has developed. And, it is true that we have rigged elections in Kashmir. But, it is now nearly a decade since any rigging was alleged. Nobody disputes that the last election was fair. Moreover, even though the Congress got more seats than the PDP, the Chief Ministership went to Mufti Mohammad Sayeed as a gesture.
Given that Kashmir has the best deal of any Indian state, is there anything more we can do? Kashmiris talk about more autonomy. But I don’t see a) what more we can give them and b) how much difference it will make.
So it should make sense when one says anything…
a.k.a the ability to form lynch mobs at the drop of a hat.
When the mobs vandalised the Birmingham Rep theatre in 2004 and threatened to lynch the writer of the play they were protesting about, it was 'teledensity' that enabled hundreds of Sikh extremists to congregate outside the theatre and launch their campaign of terror and harassment.
Are 'Sikhs' a single unitary undifferentiated mass of people indivisible with 'promoters of democracy and human rights'? The agitation for a theocratic state along the lines of Islamic Iran or Pakistan involving the ethnic cleansing of non Sikhs and the persecution of dissenting Sikhs is not a vision of human rights and democracy.
That's not to say that campaigns against individuals involved in post 1984 atrocties should not be held to account. But I've seen the reality of the thugs who use that as an excuse to peddle their dark, communal, supremacist and separatist agenda up close too many times to not greet these cries of mob rule with anything but cynicism.
a.k.a the ability to form lynch mobs at the drop of a hat.
When the mobs vandalised the Birmingham Rep theatre in 2004 and threatened to lynch the writer of the play they were protesting about, it was ‘teledensity’ that enabled hundreds of Sikh extremists to congregate outside the theatre and launch their campaign of terror and harassment.
Are ‘Sikhs’ a single unitary undifferentiated mass of people indivisible with ‘promoters of democracy and human rights’? The agitation for a theocratic state along the lines of Islamic Iran or Pakistan involving the ethnic cleansing of non Sikhs and the persecution of dissenting Sikhs is not a vision of human rights and democracy.
That’s not to say that campaigns against individuals involved in post 1984 atrocties should not be held to account. But I’ve seen the reality of the thugs who use that as an excuse to peddle their dark, communal, supremacist and separatist agenda up close too many times to not greet these cries of mob rule with anything but cynicism.
Janardhan:
If British would have offered India a premium price for land instead of full freedom, what would have been their response??
To suggest that India is spending on the occupied land is not going to make any difference. It's a price of occupation. An investment. Point to note is had that money actually reached people then 40% of J&K population must not have been below poverty line. For India the strategic geopolitical location of Kashmir is of utmost importance. Kashmir gives direct route to Pakistan & China, that's what worries the defense strategists.
Right now India is a country with no common theme. That's why BJP coined "Hindutva" as common theme. That's not different from what congress is following for past century. It's just that BJP is more vocal on that.
Remember what is good for Andra, may have zero significance in Punjab. And what is important to average Kashmiri, may have no value in Maharastra.
India instead of accepting those difference is trying hard for past century to uni-color them.
Let me elaborate further on "majority growth at expense of minority"
If you are a non-Hindu and had studied in any government school, private school or convent school, the themes in those text books are to project & promote concept of "Hindu Nation". Things like
-Idol worship is assumed belief,
-over emphasis on achievements of Hindu leaders (even though every body knows how easily Moguls were able to acquire most of Hindu states),
-almost skipping doctrines of other religions that exists in that sub-continents. 15-18% of Indian population in Muslim, tell me what does your school told you about Islam.
-when they teach Bhagat Kabir, they almost skip the main theme in which Kabir describes the hypocrisy of Hindu system. We all know for centuries (even today) how Hindu caste system has kept the humanity divided. But those issues are easily skipped.
-why Urdu, which was primary langauge in pre-independence era is suddenly missing from schools. Why Sanskrit or Hindi, takes priority over it.
The current Indian school system is preaching a very different version of History. It's throwing a very different kind of literature to them.
In short, whatever fits in Hindu ideology is described & preached, everything else is easily skipped. Now if a Sikh or Muslim places their kids in those schools, then it almost assumed that they will come out "knowing-too-much-about-Majority" but "nothing-about-themselves".
Only option minority has is to build their own institutions. That requires hugh investments, which every community doesn't have. Christians in India are flushed with funds from west, so their schools are one alternative but that option is also equally bad.
But what is generally highlighted is political expenses like paid Haj but that doesn't sound a upliftment plan. More strategically stated, change their culture, rewrite their books, keep them localized and job is done.
If they are so serious about their effort is uplifting everybody then they need to be considerate about all its components. India has been easily all their problem to Pakistan.
Let's compare them:
-As you also said Pakistan as theocratic state, what is India, another theocratic state.
-India has Sikh prime minister, what's the big deal. Pakistan has a Hindu as supreme court judge.
-Pakistan has no history of attack on minority places of worship. India did that many times viz Darbar Sahib, Babri Masjid, Hazratbal.
-After independence, Pakistan has no history of religious riots. In India every five year ethnic cleansing is attempted.
It doesn't means that all is well in Pakistan but we should be careful when comparing the report cards. Don't just go by what Indian media or moves show you.
Finally, for future if India wants to survive, it has go back to more federal system as talked about in pre-Independence era.
-The center should restrict itself to international issues like Foreign affairs & defense.
-The states design their constitutions and live by it.
-The states need to have more control on their resources.
-The critical disputes should be resolved by people vote not by political corruption
-Interstate issues should be resolved by mutual cost-benefits technique then anything else.
-Let states keep major chunk of their earning & build their infrastructure.
-Keep bureaucracy at all levels lean, hence get away from British system
-and let those states also compete at global level for their individual success, which in turn would translate into success of "United States of India"
If they don't do anything like this is another few decades and continued British age style governance structure, this structure will fall apart.
Janardhan:
If British would have offered India a premium price for land instead of full freedom, what would have been their response??
To suggest that India is spending on the occupied land is not going to make any difference. It’s a price of occupation. An investment. Point to note is had that money actually reached people then 40% of J&K population must not have been below poverty line. For India the strategic geopolitical location of Kashmir is of utmost importance. Kashmir gives direct route to Pakistan & China, that’s what worries the defense strategists.
Right now India is a country with no common theme. That’s why BJP coined “Hindutva” as common theme. That’s not different from what congress is following for past century. It’s just that BJP is more vocal on that.
Remember what is good for Andra, may have zero significance in Punjab. And what is important to average Kashmiri, may have no value in Maharastra.
India instead of accepting those difference is trying hard for past century to uni-color them.
Let me elaborate further on “majority growth at expense of minority”
If you are a non-Hindu and had studied in any government school, private school or convent school, the themes in those text books are to project & promote concept of “Hindu Nation”. Things like
-Idol worship is assumed belief,
-over emphasis on achievements of Hindu leaders (even though every body knows how easily Moguls were able to acquire most of Hindu states),
-almost skipping doctrines of other religions that exists in that sub-continents. 15-18% of Indian population in Muslim, tell me what does your school told you about Islam.
-when they teach Bhagat Kabir, they almost skip the main theme in which Kabir describes the hypocrisy of Hindu system. We all know for centuries (even today) how Hindu caste system has kept the humanity divided. But those issues are easily skipped.
-why Urdu, which was primary langauge in pre-independence era is suddenly missing from schools. Why Sanskrit or Hindi, takes priority over it.
The current Indian school system is preaching a very different version of History. It’s throwing a very different kind of literature to them.
In short, whatever fits in Hindu ideology is described & preached, everything else is easily skipped. Now if a Sikh or Muslim places their kids in those schools, then it almost assumed that they will come out “knowing-too-much-about-Majority” but “nothing-about-themselves”.
Only option minority has is to build their own institutions. That requires hugh investments, which every community doesn’t have. Christians in India are flushed with funds from west, so their schools are one alternative but that option is also equally bad.
But what is generally highlighted is political expenses like paid Haj but that doesn’t sound a upliftment plan. More strategically stated, change their culture, rewrite their books, keep them localized and job is done.
If they are so serious about their effort is uplifting everybody then they need to be considerate about all its components. India has been easily all their problem to Pakistan.
Let’s compare them:
-As you also said Pakistan as theocratic state, what is India, another theocratic state.
-India has Sikh prime minister, what’s the big deal. Pakistan has a Hindu as supreme court judge.
-Pakistan has no history of attack on minority places of worship. India did that many times viz Darbar Sahib, Babri Masjid, Hazratbal.
-After independence, Pakistan has no history of religious riots. In India every five year ethnic cleansing is attempted.
It doesn’t means that all is well in Pakistan but we should be careful when comparing the report cards. Don’t just go by what Indian media or moves show you.
Finally, for future if India wants to survive, it has go back to more federal system as talked about in pre-Independence era.
-The center should restrict itself to international issues like Foreign affairs & defense.
-The states design their constitutions and live by it.
-The states need to have more control on their resources.
-The critical disputes should be resolved by people vote not by political corruption
-Interstate issues should be resolved by mutual cost-benefits technique then anything else.
-Let states keep major chunk of their earning & build their infrastructure.
-Keep bureaucracy at all levels lean, hence get away from British system
-and let those states also compete at global level for their individual success, which in turn would translate into success of “United States of India”
If they don’t do anything like this is another few decades and continued British age style governance structure, this structure will fall apart.
Hi Friend,
What ever i have studied through the history in my child hood doesnt matter. What matters is the scientific learning and learning about humanity. So the Indian educataion doesnt preach neither the Hindusim, christanity nor the islam.
the points you made
Finally, for future if India wants to survive, it has go back to more federal system as talked about in pre-Independence era.
-The center should restrict itself to international issues like Foreign affairs & defense.
-The states design their constitutions and live by it.
-The states need to have more control on their resources.
-The critical disputes should be resolved by people vote not by political corruption
-Interstate issues should be resolved by mutual cost-benefits technique then anything else.
-Let states keep major chunk of their earning & build their infrastructure.
-Keep bureaucracy at all levels lean, hence get away from British system
-and let those states also compete at global level for their individual success, which in turn would translate into success of “United States of India”
are very genuine and need to be analylsed by scientific people in a professional way to see what is more beneficial for the national interest.
And it is common that every nation acts in their own national interest. Pakistan cannot leave Balouchistan just for the sake that the tribals opposition ( tey align themselves withh taliban ) , China cannot leave Xinjiang ( Northwester china ) since because there is islamic revolution and Russia cannot leave Chechnya. THis is also in the same way why only one community which has majority in the valley tends to oppose everything related to India. Particularly this trend is more in every country where every the region which contains large section of Muslim Population.
You suggestions regarding the change in the system of indian politics and Bureacracy is indeed very much valid and every one agrees to that. That is the reason parties like LokSatta are emerging and even if the change is slow ultimately the another social revolution will emerge.
Now there is no way comparing India and Pakistan in terms of the economic status, Stature, Influence, Market, Technologies and so many factors.
Pakistan infact cannot have riots just for the reason they have never allowed any minorities to survive. That is basically a religious state very very minute percentage of population is there unlilke in india where minorites constitute almst 20 to 22 %. I am not telling againt but the history has repeated everywhere.
ONo one can think of India being compared with pakistan ( who has recognized Taliban Govt ).
If the indian Govt would have acted as a authoritian
state ( theocratic state ) then at the first place the people would never has the opportunity to protest they would neverr has allowed thte separatist guys to use mosques to instigae the public and spread fase reports.
How can in this world a piece of land will change the demography of the Kashmir this is heights of immaturity. Even if it changes whats the issue. Every indian is free to go any where in india. How many kashmiris own properties in different parts of india? Why it cant be the same. Because how ever good the indian community and govt does to the muslim community in kashmir they view pakistan as their ultimate goal. that is why i clearly said before also the empowerment of muslims lies in their hands by being more open, more positive, and joining in the mainstream.
The day when they put society and country as first rather than religion the day will start the actual positiveness in their community.
And no indian bothers and if u go and ask any person about the cholas, Tippus, Moghuls, shivajis no one remebers, and no one is least bothered. That is why i emphasis that scientific education is the need of hour rather than the history. If if some negligance is there from the govt ( mainly bcoz of congress who ruled and ruined the country until 90's ) no one gives a damn care bcoz it doesnt effect them in day to day life.
The questiion is not about how many urdu schools how many sanskrit schools the question is particular communites need to send their sons to the english medium schools. again i repeat scientific education is important. Even there are very very few sanskrit institutions & like urdu institutions. For your information in govt schools where muslim population is more there language Urdu option is there as a first language option.
indutva if ones goes by word it seems religious and communal. But Hindutva doesnt like in discriminattion in any one and any religion. It signals the way of life and oneness as country and nation and society at large. It could have been misinterepted by media and so called secularists.
and finally every nation acts as per its interests and no media is free and fare every wherer biasing is there. Take the case of BBC & CNN they potry Russia as agressor on Georgia, where as Georiga who actually started theh war on breakaway regions. Take Aljazeera i was shocked to see tey mentioned india and pakistan fought three wards 1949, 65,99 ( they forgot to include 1971 war in whch Paksitan was defeated and Bangladesh was born, i hope they dont need history to be taught )so every media is biased. Every wherer the system is like that only. No one can think that corruption is nto there in USA and UK there are many instances to highlight the high level of corruption.
I
And certain this is India's century, provided with more reforms in politics and public services removing redtapism.
Hi Friend,
What ever i have studied through the history in my child hood doesnt matter. What matters is the scientific learning and learning about humanity. So the Indian educataion doesnt preach neither the Hindusim, christanity nor the islam.
the points you made
Finally, for future if India wants to survive, it has go back to more federal system as talked about in pre-Independence era.
-The center should restrict itself to international issues like Foreign affairs & defense.
-The states design their constitutions and live by it.
-The states need to have more control on their resources.
-The critical disputes should be resolved by people vote not by political corruption
-Interstate issues should be resolved by mutual cost-benefits technique then anything else.
-Let states keep major chunk of their earning & build their infrastructure.
-Keep bureaucracy at all levels lean, hence get away from British system
-and let those states also compete at global level for their individual success, which in turn would translate into success of “United States of India”
are very genuine and need to be analylsed by scientific people in a professional way to see what is more beneficial for the national interest.
And it is common that every nation acts in their own national interest. Pakistan cannot leave Balouchistan just for the sake that the tribals opposition ( tey align themselves withh taliban ) , China cannot leave Xinjiang ( Northwester china ) since because there is islamic revolution and Russia cannot leave Chechnya. THis is also in the same way why only one community which has majority in the valley tends to oppose everything related to India. Particularly this trend is more in every country where every the region which contains large section of Muslim Population.
You suggestions regarding the change in the system of indian politics and Bureacracy is indeed very much valid and every one agrees to that. That is the reason parties like LokSatta are emerging and even if the change is slow ultimately the another social revolution will emerge.
Now there is no way comparing India and Pakistan in terms of the economic status, Stature, Influence, Market, Technologies and so many factors.
Pakistan infact cannot have riots just for the reason they have never allowed any minorities to survive. That is basically a religious state very very minute percentage of population is there unlilke in india where minorites constitute almst 20 to 22 %. I am not telling againt but the history has repeated everywhere.
ONo one can think of India being compared with pakistan ( who has recognized Taliban Govt ).
If the indian Govt would have acted as a authoritian
state ( theocratic state ) then at the first place the people would never has the opportunity to protest they would neverr has allowed thte separatist guys to use mosques to instigae the public and spread fase reports.
How can in this world a piece of land will change the demography of the Kashmir this is heights of immaturity. Even if it changes whats the issue. Every indian is free to go any where in india. How many kashmiris own properties in different parts of india? Why it cant be the same. Because how ever good the indian community and govt does to the muslim community in kashmir they view pakistan as their ultimate goal. that is why i clearly said before also the empowerment of muslims lies in their hands by being more open, more positive, and joining in the mainstream.
The day when they put society and country as first rather than religion the day will start the actual positiveness in their community.
And no indian bothers and if u go and ask any person about the cholas, Tippus, Moghuls, shivajis no one remebers, and no one is least bothered. That is why i emphasis that scientific education is the need of hour rather than the history. If if some negligance is there from the govt ( mainly bcoz of congress who ruled and ruined the country until 90’s ) no one gives a damn care bcoz it doesnt effect them in day to day life.
The questiion is not about how many urdu schools how many sanskrit schools the question is particular communites need to send their sons to the english medium schools. again i repeat scientific education is important. Even there are very very few sanskrit institutions & like urdu institutions. For your information in govt schools where muslim population is more there language Urdu option is there as a first language option.
indutva if ones goes by word it seems religious and communal. But Hindutva doesnt like in discriminattion in any one and any religion. It signals the way of life and oneness as country and nation and society at large. It could have been misinterepted by media and so called secularists.
and finally every nation acts as per its interests and no media is free and fare every wherer biasing is there. Take the case of BBC & CNN they potry Russia as agressor on Georgia, where as Georiga who actually started theh war on breakaway regions. Take Aljazeera i was shocked to see tey mentioned india and pakistan fought three wards 1949, 65,99 ( they forgot to include 1971 war in whch Paksitan was defeated and Bangladesh was born, i hope they dont need history to be taught )so every media is biased. Every wherer the system is like that only. No one can think that corruption is nto there in USA and UK there are many instances to highlight the high level of corruption.
I
And certain this is India’s century, provided with more reforms in politics and public services removing redtapism.
I find the hypocrisy shown here by Hindu elite under the garb of Indian-ness pathetic. State run Hindu pilgrimages(Amarnath, Vaishno devi etc) are enterprise of Hindu patriotism. Imagine if the Ajmer Shrine of Muslims is given 100 acres land in Rajasthan.
Moreover, this thing that the Amarnath never had any land for use is completely baseless and white lie; the Amarnath Shrine was using hundreds of acres of land for pilgrims causing significant environmental damage in Kashmir but the ONLY thing was it was never transferred under the name of the Hindu Trust. Now how can the so-called secular state run Hindu Institutions that promote Hinduism? We need to real the Indian constitution here where the Hindus can became a nation when they want to be, they become a culture when they want to be and society when they want to be. See Below the link:
This transfer of land without any reasonable justification was deliberately done rake up Hindu patriotism. One way the Hindu Double Talk Express talks about not comunalizing the politics but the whole reason of this situation is the communal State patronage of Hindu pilgrimage and alleged plight of Hindu pundits, lets talk about what is not more communal. Hindus have been made utterly blind by there leaders that they fail to consider this basic human right that people of different cultures and religions deserve right to live on their own rather than under the yard stick of the Hindu under the garb of Indian. The Hindus deny that there are different ethnic cultures and religions live in India. They only want to have the India defined on Hindu paradigms.
India which is a creation of British empire is today defined as product of Hindus in the history of India. The truth is there was no India as Indian-State prior to Brits made it.
India is a Hindu State under the garb of secularism, it is known as Hindu secularism. The Indian Patriotism is full of Hindu notions of Jai Hind, Desh-Sevak and Bharat Mata ki Jai-so the tone of Hinduism is alive but it takes the form of culture for nationalism. This denial of reality has made the Hindus really blind to reality. The history books of India are full of Hindu Propaganda. One way Hindus talk about secular India (of course with Hindu Patriotism) but on the other hand impose Hindu Laws(Hindu Succession Law, Hindu Family Law etc) on minorities like Sikhs just because they want Sikhs to be under Hindus otherwise it would anti-national. Some tolerance? Some secularism? Some denial? Some hypocrisy?
Before we can understand the whole Tamasha, we need to understand Hindu Laws in the Indian Constitution:
http://www.sikhspectrum.com/052007/constitution.h…
I find the hypocrisy shown here by Hindu elite under the garb of Indian-ness pathetic. State run Hindu pilgrimages(Amarnath, Vaishno devi etc) are enterprise of Hindu patriotism. Imagine if the Ajmer Shrine of Muslims is given 100 acres land in Rajasthan.
Moreover, this thing that the Amarnath never had any land for use is completely baseless and white lie; the Amarnath Shrine was using hundreds of acres of land for pilgrims causing significant environmental damage in Kashmir but the ONLY thing was it was never transferred under the name of the Hindu Trust. Now how can the so-called secular state run Hindu Institutions that promote Hinduism? We need to real the Indian constitution here where the Hindus can became a nation when they want to be, they become a culture when they want to be and society when they want to be. See Below the link:
This transfer of land without any reasonable justification was deliberately done rake up Hindu patriotism. One way the Hindu Double Talk Express talks about not comunalizing the politics but the whole reason of this situation is the communal State patronage of Hindu pilgrimage and alleged plight of Hindu pundits, lets talk about what is not more communal. Hindus have been made utterly blind by there leaders that they fail to consider this basic human right that people of different cultures and religions deserve right to live on their own rather than under the yard stick of the Hindu under the garb of Indian. The Hindus deny that there are different ethnic cultures and religions live in India. They only want to have the India defined on Hindu paradigms.
India which is a creation of British empire is today defined as product of Hindus in the history of India. The truth is there was no India as Indian-State prior to Brits made it.
India is a Hindu State under the garb of secularism, it is known as Hindu secularism. The Indian Patriotism is full of Hindu notions of Jai Hind, Desh-Sevak and Bharat Mata ki Jai-so the tone of Hinduism is alive but it takes the form of culture for nationalism. This denial of reality has made the Hindus really blind to reality. The history books of India are full of Hindu Propaganda. One way Hindus talk about secular India (of course with Hindu Patriotism) but on the other hand impose Hindu Laws(Hindu Succession Law, Hindu Family Law etc) on minorities like Sikhs just because they want Sikhs to be under Hindus otherwise it would anti-national. Some tolerance? Some secularism? Some denial? Some hypocrisy?
Before we can understand the whole Tamasha, we need to understand Hindu Laws in the Indian Constitution:
http://www.sikhspectrum.com/052007/constitution.htm
[…] The Congress Party leaders (including Sonia Gandhi) had no desire to create another problem with Kashmir already burning (plus even more recent violence in Orissa). Thus it seems for the time being the Prime […]