Sikhs could learn from Icelandic on stigmas, taboos
Over a year ago, Ajmer Singh Hothi was found shot dead inside a semi-truck that he had just bought and was still making payments on. Only a day before, he had changed his phone number and gotten a restraining order against his ex-girlfriend and her father. [link]
More information surrounding the case has recently became available since 553 pages of court records from a grand jury hearing have become public.
A prosecutor accuses Gurparkash Khalsa of being driven by humiliation over his daughter’s soiled reputation to the point of ambushing Hothi in a big rig parked east of Stockton. The 56-year-old now sits in a jail cell charged with capital murder… Details of the case recently became public when San Joaquin County Superior Court Judge Charlotte Orcutt unsealed the 553-page transcripts of a four-day grand jury hearing that ended with Khalsa’s April 25 indictment. He was arrested hours later. [link]
The events that led to Ajmer’s death began with a relationship between Hothi and Khalsa’s daughter.
It began in November 2004, when a secret romance sparked between Hothi and Khalsa’s daughter, Kiranjot Pannu, then age 17. The lovers kept it quiet because Hothi was a lowly trucker, while her father owned Pacific Coast Intermodal in French Camp. Hothi’s father, also a trucker, once worked for Khalsa and feared him, according to Hothi’s sister, Kiranjit Hothi, who testified before the grand jury. [link]
Khalsa forbade the romance and Hothi’s parents sent Ajmer to India for an arranged marriage. But then Khalsa heard rumors that Hothi had gotten his daughter pregnant, and that she’d had an abortion. The angry father then demanded that Hothi marry his daughter. He followed Ajmer to India and tried to have him divorced. It seems that he was unsuccessful, and word of his attempt traveled back to Stockton where Khalsa felt humiliated in the eyes of the community. [link]
As for evidence against Khalsa:
Investigators never recovered the weapon, but years ago Khalsa registered a similar type of gun with the Stockton Police Department. He cannot establish an alibi, among other evidence Himelblau [the prosecutor] said he has against Khalsa. [link]
An unexpected and interesting contrast is found in Iceland, which has the highest birth rate in Europe + highest divorce rate + highest percentage of women working outside the home but also tops the latest table of the United Nations Development Programme’s (UNDP) Human Development Index rankings…
meaning that as a society and as an economy - in terms of wealth, health and education - they are champions of the world. . . According to a seemingly serious academic study reported in the Guardian in 2006, Icelanders are the happiest people on earth. (The study was lent some credibility by the finding that the Russians were the most unhappy.) [link]
Regardless of the truth of the study cited by the article, one factor in particular that the Icelandic cite for their success is really interesting and especially applicable to the Sikh community.
Oddny Sturludottir, a 31-year-old mother of two, told me she had a good friend who was 25 and had three children by a man who had just left her. ‘But she has no sense of crisis at all,’ Oddny said. ‘She’s preparing to get on with her life and her career in a perfectly optimistic frame of mind.’ …. It is a largely pagan country, as the natives like to see it, unburdened by the taboos that generate so much distress elsewhere. That means they are practical people. [link]
The Icelandic have high rates of divorce.
‘That is not something to be proud of,’ said Oddny, with a brisk smile, ‘but the fact is that Icelanders don’t stay in lousy relationships. They just leave.’ And the reason they can do so is that society, starting with the parents and grandparents, does not stigmatise them for making that choice. Icelanders are the least hung-up people in the world. [link]
I’m not advocating for more divorce, just less judgment from the community when relationships are lousy and go awry. We already raise children through extended and patchwork families (depending on how much and where parents are working), but everyone has an opinion about what’s best or right for everyone else. We all are familiar with the intense shame that our peers and adults (even complete strangers) mete out for a variety of reasons that don’t merit shame- being too religious or not religious enough, going to college too far from home, not having the ‘right’ job, getting married too early or too late, etc. (though as commenters have discussed, there may be a productive use for shaming too). Maybe we should learn from the Icelandic - stop stigmatising and stop being hung up by these stigmas/taboos. (Though I have to point out that Icelandic also have the benefit of major state investment in education from pre-school onwards and healthcare, which is less effective in the US.)
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I’m not advocating for more divorce, just less judgment from the community when relationships are lousy and go awry.
Is that ever gonna happen. Anytime there is a divorce in our community, 99% of the time the women is blamed no matter how bad the wife is treated by her husband.
Icelanders are the least hung-up people in the world.
That probably true in most of the western europe.
But is really a good choice to copy the Icelandic way. After all Icelandic people are Gora.
And from what I’ve heard a millions of times from other punjabis is. That Gora’s have no culture, they divorce easy, there women all sleep around, the parents don’t support the kids when they turn 18, they don’t take care of there elders when they get old, family is not important to them, the women are allowed to drink, and on and on. And don’t even get started what they say about kala[black], but that another story.
My parents never talked like that, since we grow up in area that 99% white and my parents became part of the community and made many friends. Some of them who have been friends for over 3 decades.
While I agree Reema that we should stop stigmatizing one another, I am not sure how another nation-state provides a model. Instead of “models” of other communities, why don’t we learn to tweak systems that do stem from our own cultural systems to push progressive thought?
As you mentioned and as P.Singh, bdb, and I discussed before shaming does work. Why don’t we figure out better ’selective’ ways to channel social shaming (not the way it functioned for Khalsa) to push for a more progressive spirit and feelings of ‘proper’ outrage in our community.
Yes Suki,
Truly a shame - those poor brown folk who only live alongside other brown folk and have not made long-lasting friendships with ‘goray’. The ‘goray’, of course, are enlightened and truly cultured folk, and all brown folk would be well advised to aspire to such heights of sophistication.
Truth be said, brown folk should thank ‘goray’ for even allowing them entry into their lands. It absolutely disgusts me that brown folk had to actually get physical with ‘goray’ in order to stop the racist violence, and attacks on their homes some years ago - how dare they! If they weren’t so brown, and would have put aside their silly turbans, backward language and religion, and tried to be more Canadian (or ‘gora’, same thing), they wouldn’t have had such problems.
Gosh darn it, I wish I was white.
Truth be said, brown folk should thank ‘goray’ for even allowing them entry into their lands. It absolutely disgusts me that brown folk had to actually get physical with ‘goray’ in order to stop the racist violence, and attacks on their homes some years ago - how dare they! If they weren’t so brown, and would have put aside their silly turbans, backward language and religion, and tried to be more Canadian (or ‘gora’, same thing), they wouldn’t have had such problems.
Give me a break P.Singh. Of course there is racism in Canada. Just as there as racism in every country in there world and there will be. But Canada as come a long way and one of the best places in the world to be a minority.
Speaking of racism, Still in the year 2008 in Punjab you have Jatt controled Gurdawara’s that don’t let in lower castes sikh in. But we much rather talk about racist all white people and ignores are own racist views.
The reason Jaswinder Sidhu and Amandeep Atwal are no longer here with us, is that there family would have lost there standing in the community cause of those girls relationships, so those girls ended paying for there lifes.
May I just add that next month that my sister is marrying a Sri Lankan Tamil Hindu guy. My Parents are understanding and open minded, but I have heard comments from some people in the community what an awful job my parents did.
Indeed Suki - but your self-loathing, coupled with your placement of ‘white’ culture on a pedestal is, to put it kindly, nauseating.
Truly a shame - those poor brown folk who only live alongside other brown folk and have not made long-lasting friendships with ‘goray’. The ‘goray’, of course, are enlightened and truly cultured folk, and all brown folk would be well advised to aspire to such heights of sophistication.
So P.Singh my parents when they came to Canada over 35 years ago, should have kept themselves instead of being part of the community. I think if you find people in our community who like my parents and only don’t keep to themselves are less likley to be worried about old cultural taboos, then those who make no effort to make friend outside of community.
I’m not talking about just having white friends, even having Indian friends like Bengal’s, Gurjati’s or Paris among others or other friends like Japanese, Flippino or Black or Iranian. Which I can say that my friends had when I was younger.
A significant chunk of my family is inter-married - it happens when your family has been in Canada over a century. However, I see little merit in the huge blanket statements you frequently make, essentially coloring all that is ‘brown’ as bad and painting ‘white’ culture as some fountain of pure goodness.
Indeed Suki - but your self-loathing, coupled with your placement of ‘white’ culture on a pedestal is, to put it kindly, nauseating.
I could I put white culture on pedestal, when I thought white people have no culture.
However, I see little merit in the huge blanket statements you frequently make, essentially coloring all that is ‘brown’ as bad and painting ‘white’ culture as some fountain of pure goodness.
When did I say that brown is bad and white culture is pure goodness. I just not a fan of punjabi village culture that just does not work in Western country’s.
All I have said that you need to adapt when you move to a western country and leave certain practices behing when you move to counrty that is alot different then the one you move to.
I have met Indians of other backgrounds in Canada/United States and I think they do a much better job of mixing the 2 cultures. I have alot of family in the America and they do a much better job of mixing the 2 cultures then what I see here in Vancover.
Most of the issues of sexism I see in the punjabi community are cause of things that should be left behind in Punjab. I have a 9 year old daughter and I don’t want to deal with the issues of sexism that so many young girls have to deal with in our community. And anybody who does see these issues are blind.
Reema, my apologies for hi-jacking the thread - will try to exercise better control in the future.
Our Gurus removed the taboo against widows remarrying - perhaps the taboo against divorce and remarriage should be the next to fall?
I am, admittedly, a little uncomfortable with this, if only because I’m an optimist. In general, I like to think two people should be able to ‘work things out’ and not part ways for simple inconvenience or because the ’spark’ is no longer there. Divorce, from what I have seen recently in my own generation, becomes an easy way out for many: “Ok - we just don’t get along anymore - lets quit this relationship.” One reason for the more frequent divorces in the community now, as opposed to 30 years ago, is the stigma is not so pronounced anymore. I’m not saying this is a bad thing - simply, its a lot easier for a couple to take the divorce route now than in the past.
Shedding stigmas is perhaps the healthier approach in most cases - why live life with guilt and shame? Do what makes life easier for you and Rab Rakha - yes, no?
Much easier said than done though - I am racking my mind, thinking of all the ‘westernized’ uncles, aunts, elders I know in the Punjabi community, many of whom were born here in Canada, and cannot think of one who would not be absolutely mortified if their daughter had a child out of wedlock, or was involved in an extra-marital relationship.
[Nice rebound P.Singh, but as you knew this was eventually coming.... Suki and P.Singh keep it civil and not personal. Stick to the issue. As 2pac once said, leave the drama in fujiyama (or something like that)....Admin Singh]
Thanks for taking it back to the point of the post, P. Singh.
I wasn’t saying that we should be completely like the Icelandic- just pointing out that the lack of taboos for them, was one factor that they attribute their success to.
And Mewa- I don’t think Iceland should be a model for us, just that it’s an interesting contrast. I don’t think we could eliminate shame from our community, even if we wanted to.
You and others were commenting on how to use shame positively in another post. The things that shame is used for right now- relationships, social standing, inter-caste marriages - aren’t high priority problems that should be stigmatized. We use shame profusely, far more than we should, and for the wrong things. (yes, an obvious point, but I wasn’t trying to be brilliant.)
I’m actually not disagreeing with you Reema
Heck, imagine life free of restrictions imposed by most social taboos and other stigmas - it’s certainly liberating. I’m sure most of us have been in situations, where after much agonizing weighing of what is right and wrong/proper and improper, we say “Aww $%$^ it - I’m going to do it, and I don’t give a %^Y& who has a problem with it”. The lead-up to that one moment is often torture, but man-o-man, the moment itself is such a relief.
I’m sure if we think about it, there are certain taboos and stigmas in our culture most of us would be happy without.
For instance, what’s up with this fat taboo? If I have a gut, and I enjoy resting my hands on it while watching t.v. - and the way it playfully jiggles when I’m driving - I shouldn’t be ashamed. And if I decide to have another helping of Breyers double-churned ice-cream - I shouldn’t have to worry about what anyone else thinks - damn it, love me for it!
Suki,
I don’t know why you are so critical of Punjab village mentality. It is very natural for immigrants ( in some cases) to safeguard their cultural practices by staying within their own group. This practice does fill void left by social isolation when one cannot speak English. Where I live we see lot of Hispanic immigrants concentrated in one area of the city. They depend on each other to help each other out. Most of our patients at the local health department have heard about our services through their peers in the community. I wonder if we would have reached that many number of people through our community outreach efforts. There is positive side to this phenomenon of staying within your own group. Believe me they are doing it for reason.
our community’s social behavior is driven by ‘what everyone else will say’. Not to say that other communities don’t do this, but we in particular take it to another level.
I have had those moments of f-it! I am doing this and everyone can shove it. It was like an elephant finally got off my chest and left.
Suki and P.Singh keep it civil and not personal. Stick to the issue. As 2pac once said, leave the drama in fujiyama (or something like that)….Admin Singh]
I have no problem keeping it civil, but if P.Singh keeps up with his personal attacks almost every time I leave a comment, that I have the right to defend myself.
I don’t know why you are so critical of Punjab village mentality. It is very natural for immigrants ( in some cases) to safeguard their cultural practices by staying within their own group.
My problem is that people don’t appreciate how lucky they are to be living in one of the great country in the world. I just get tired of there bashing Canada and talking about how things are great in the Punjab. Canada is one of the best country’s in the world and there are hundreds of millions people all across the world and they would give anything to live in Western Country.
Kristen Kaur, may I also add I find the village mentality to be very sexist towards women. I just can’t not image how these young girls who grew up between two cultures among parents who have no idea how it is to grow in the west. Where as there brothers can do anything and get away with it.
Like I have said before Jaswinder Sidhu and Amandeep Atwal losts there lifes due to the fact there family lost standing in there social circle due to the relationships these girls chose to be in.
Much easier said than done though - I am racking my mind, thinking of all the ‘westernized’ uncles, aunts, elders I know in the Punjabi community, many of whom were born here in Canada, and cannot think of one who would not be absolutely mortified if their daughter had a child out of wedlock, or was involved in an extra-marital relationship.
I hope they are just as mortified if there sons do the same thing
breaking my hiatus to voice a bit of support for Suki, since he’s been lambasted from a few different directions. i don’t know his comment history, but i see his point here…
i grew up attending gurudwara regularly but not really living near or going to school with any sikhs/punjabis/indians. i grew up being strictly raised a sikh, having attended summer camps and what not, but not at all Punjabi (i had no idea what bhangra even was until college). my folks get along very well with indians, sikhs, AND white people, as they were forced to interact daily with average americans, from professionals to trailer park trash, through work. while some of my closest friends are sikhs and indians, i typically feel far more comfortable around new/random groups of white people because i know how to deal and manage their ignorance as opposed to the retarded baggage so many sikhs and indians might bring to interactions with other sikhs and indians.
with that context, i take tremendous pride in a few elements of Punjabi culture, namely the hospitality. many other elements, elements that are not necessarily unique to punjabis, i despise. one is the “pride” in and of itself. this is often most clearly manifested as “jatt sikh” pride. sorry, but as its trumpeted, it’s oxymoronic, castism akin to racism, and yet is a sentiment so proudly held by so many in our community. i don’t say this only because i’m not a jatt (i didn’t even know what jatt/kathri/etc. was until college), i say it because i try to look at it from an objective standpoint, and those attitudes are far more destructive to the Sikh community’s cohesiveness than any other factor. i still just get pissed off every time i hear of a JSF/JSM seeking a JSF/JSM, especially when they are or are from an amritdhari family.
this unfettered pride in punjabi culture, often pride in the ways and roots of the pindh more than anything, are most often championed, vocally, by those who love their jatt sikh bad ass selves. besides taking pride in an idea that is the anathema of sikhi, castism, they dwell on certain old fashioned tendencies that are the anathema of the progressive, adaptive, cosmopolitan attitude that has most pointedly marked the pinnacles in sikh history.
quite simply, sikhi and punjabi culture (and many of its flaws - sexism, castism, romaticized party lifestyle) have survived hand in hand for a long time. and most people might identify themselves as punjabi sikh. what is of note, though, is that when the two identities conflict, which is often, punjabi is more often chosen over sikh with a certain amount of prideful glee. but rather than ostracizing that choice when it is in regards to a particularly backwards element of punjabi culture, most in our community sit and twiddle our thumbs, whistling a punjabi version of dixie. and when that backward element then reflects upon all sikhs? that’s when i take it personally and have no qualms about calling out the bullsh*t.
so, in regards to this post - who cares about the icelanders. we don’t need to look to another culture that, in my humble opinion, is over liberalized. they may be successful and happy because there are many, MANY other factors at play, including their history and insularity. apply some of their characteristics to american society, such as high divorce and out of wedlock births, and you’ll highlight the most statistically failed groups of people in our society. it’s inapplicable. instead, why don’t we just turn to the principles that are preached every day in our gurudwaras and take those to heart rather than just pay it lipservice.
this applies to female foeticide, general sexism, castism, prevalent racism, ridiculous amounts of gossip, competitiveness within families and others, insularity, lack of education, alcoholism, assholes killing their daughters’ lovers, etc., etc., etc.
First - a request - could Langar Hall please introduce a “threaded commenting system” so that we can ignore long threads of conversation between Suki and P.Singh? Not that they don’t have valid points, but sometimes you are more interested in the general view of the public rather than the particular discussion (or almost bickering) between two individuals.
Now, about the original post - Icelandic culture is a local culture. Sikh culture is a universal culture. The author of this post is misinformed if she feels that the father killed Ajmer Hothi under the influence of social stigma created by his Sikh culture. Sikh culture is in the Sikh scriptures, traditions, and organizations. Sikh culture is Hola Mohalla, and bana, and dtadi vaars, and gatka, and other social habits and customs guided by the Sikh traditions. If you are talking about PUNJABI CULTURE, then that is a different thing. Please compare apples with apples.
Just to add to my comment - there are Sikhs born and raised in countries all over the world. Their parents and grandparents could have been from any part of the world as well. And Sikhs make their own culture, while the traditions are based on the culture of Sikhs from the past. In the past even, Guru Nanak Dev ji travelled all over Asia, the Middle East and Southern Europe. Guru Nanak dev ji’s worldly family was of a different “culture” than Guru Gobind Singh ji’s worldly family. All of the Punj Pyare were from different locations. Sikh culture, therefore, is NOT synonymous with Punjabi culture, and Sikh hymns that include customs from Punjabi culture are at the most a spiritual and social commentary of those customs, not an endorsement.
to clarify one additional thing -
it also applies to judgmental attitude, self-righteousness, stigmatizing, ostracizing, exiling, etc, etc. while certain behavior may be anti-sikh, sikhi teaches some pretty common sense values of forgiveness, brotherly love, fraternity, etc. a certain amount of stigma is necessary for any society to function and not descend into organized anarchy or lack of any identity - this is applicable to punjabi and sikh communities. moreover, a family has a right to maintain certain values and thresholds of behavior. but just as ridiculous as a punjabi who practices castism and sexism is the “paka” sikh who is self-righteous and overly judgmental. neither really embodies the universal principles of sikhi to help their fellow man without question, to abide by the golden rule.
Attributing “backward” behaviour to the village is a stereotype that should be condemned at all turns. City, aka Shari, people in India have as many or more social hangups as anyone in a punjabi village.
I agree with Kaptaan. In fact female infanticide in Punjab is the highest amongst the “educated” city folk.
with that context, i take tremendous pride in a few elements of Punjabi culture, namely the hospitality. many other elements, elements that are not necessarily unique to punjabis, i despise. one is the “pride” in and of itself. this is often most clearly manifested as “jatt sikh” pride. sorry, but as its trumpeted, it’s oxymoronic, castism akin to racism, and yet is a sentiment so proudly held by so many in our community. i don’t say this only because i’m not a jatt (i didn’t even know what jatt/kathri/etc. was until college), i say it because i try to look at it from an objective standpoint, and those attitudes are far more destructive to the Sikh community’s cohesiveness than any other factor. i still just get pissed off every time i hear of a JSF/JSM seeking a JSF/JSM, especially when they are or are from an amritdhari family.
I didn’t know that I came from a Jatt background till 4 years ago at age of 28 when somebody kept asking me what my caste was. Then when the person found out my last name, he was happy cause I was a jatt.
I guess I have to blame my parents for not letting me know about my great jatt background.
this applies to female foeticide, general sexism, castism, prevalent racism, ridiculous amounts of gossip, competitiveness within families and others, insularity, lack of education, alcoholism, assholes killing their daughters’ lovers, etc., etc., etc.
I noticed these problems about 6 years ago when I moved to Vancouver and 6 years later these problems are still the same and 6 years from and 6 years after that the same problem will still be here, and I’m worried that more then a few more young punjabi women will lose there lifes and things will still be the same.
this post is misinformed if she feels that the father killed Ajmer Hothi under the influence of social stigma created by his Sikh culture. Sikh culture is in the Sikh scriptures, traditions, and organizations. Sikh culture is Hola Mohalla, and bana, and dtadi vaars, and gatka, and other social habits and customs guided by the Sikh traditions.
This killing was due to punjabi culture and not sikhism. But the sad thing is punjabi culture has taken over sikhism, and some people have trouble telling which is which.
This killing took place in Stockton which is right in the middle of triangle of Bakersfield, Yuba City and the Bay area in Central and Northern Califronia which makes up the biggest punjabi community in the United States, so here it is easier for the community to isolate itself and not intergrate as much into American society and things like family honor still play a big role which played a part in this murder.
But in the rest of the United States the sikh population is spread out and much smaller causing it have to intergate more into American society. Meaning that punjabi sikh’s who grow up in places like Minnesota, Iowa or Utah grow up different then those in places like London, Vancouver or Central California.
I love Central California!
Kaptaan and Blue,
Hear, hear! Exactly … thank you for bringing this nuance to the conversation!
funny that it’s only the “pindh” comment, an extremely tangential, equivocal point mentioned in passing and taken slightly out of context, that has elicited such grand discussion and back patting. but glad we’re all clear now.
Hmmm … when did stereotypes (i.e. “backwards) and divisions (i.e. pind/shaar) become “tangential” when their used to frame discussions about social issues (i.e. female feticide”)? For Sukhi these stereotypes and divisions are at the heart of the female feticide issue. “Backward” Punjabi “village mentality” is to blame! Ultimately, this way of thinking prevents us from reaching tangible solutions because it becomes a blame game than a discussion about real solutions rooted in the reality of the matter.
So, Blue and Kaptaan brought in the nuance … hear hear … female feticide is not rooted in “backwards” Punjabi “village mentality”, but “forward-thinking” shaaris do it too. Being “educated” and “metropolitan” isn’t always the solution. Get over the blame game based on ill-founded divisions around the issue. Stop trying to continually divide the community … it will only make OUR issues worse. We are ALL to blame … what is it about US that is perpetuating the issue … how do we develop REAL solutions!
ah - my mistake. i hadn’t read the earlier comments in a couple days and forgot how much the village identity was discussed and criticized in the earlier comments. given the timing, i had assumed those subsequent comments were in response to my own tangential “pindh” comment. apologies. i agree with you wholeheartedly.
Yes, I too think it is not right to blame entire problem on Punjab village mentality. Isn’t it true women face discrimination all over the world ( in different form though)? I have friends whose shaari and well educated parents controlled lives of their daughters. On the other hand, I have few friends whose parents are completely illiterate but had let their daughters make choices that feel right to them. We should not make broad generalizations based on limited anecdotal evidence (n=2) of our personal experiences.
just so we’re clear, “nobody messes with the pindh!”
FYI, i was at an event held by SFU Students some time back and they had a “family feud” type of skit pitting Sharis against Pindhus and do you know who the mostly university crowd was cheering on?? the Pindhus, and do you know why? because pretty much everyone I know who is from the Punjab knows what village their family belongs too and the Sharis from India or otherwise never ever admit or seem to know what their ancestral villages are… which I always found pretty funny and bizarre…
best regards,
Kaptaan
This comes up so often, on various threads, I guess I should fess up my perspective and why I consistently talk about things that others see as singularly Punjabi.
Yes, of course, Punjabi culture and Sikhi are 2 separate things. There are Punjabis who aren’t Sikh and there are Sikhs who aren’t Punjabi.
However, the vast majority of Sikhs have some connection to Punjab, whether they’re one, two, or three generations removed.
To those who don’t, posts that integrate “Punjabi issues” may not be as interesting/applicable, but they do apply to most of the Sikh community.
To pretend that “Punjabi issues” can be so cleanly separated from Sikhs, and treated as an entirely separate phenomenon is to deny the reality of our dual identities, and in a way - it’s a cop out. Many of our community are both Punjabi and Sikh. Why can only our problems come from our Punjabi-ness and only our good values be attributed to our Sikh identity?
Why aren’t our Sikh values stopping the domestic violence, drug abuse, and murders? Is a Sikh suddenly only Punjabi when he beats his wife? (No!) To say that problems are only “Punjabi issues” is to deny the issues that need to be addressed, AS issues of the Sikh community.
I’d also venture that Punjabi culture and “Sikh culture” as Singh described it above- feed each other. They are inseparable and intertwined (this may be less so as more Sikhs join the diaspora and eventually lose touch completely with our Punjabi heritage). For now, there is some Punjabiness in Sikhi, and there is some Sikhi in Punjabi culture.
Disagree all you want, you probably won’t change my mind on this.
Reema, your concern is that trying to discuss the contemporary Sikh diaspora completely without any contextual knowledge of Punjab and modern Punjabi culture is wrong, and I agree.
However, trying to discuss contemporary Sikh diaspora completely without any contextual knowledge of all of the other cultures that Gurbani represents is also equally wrong. The Sikh culture is rooted in the cultures that Gurbani represents, which are all cultures.
“Punjabi Sikhism” could be a field of study, however “Punjabi Sikhism” is not synonymous with “Sikhism as a Whole.”
Reema, don’t post links and articles from news to make everything seems so true. Fact of reality is, nobody nows what exactly had happen, who is innocent or guilty yet. I personality cannot judge other person until he is proven to be guilty.
Gurpal, I’m glad you have complete faith in the judicial system. I wouldn’t assume anyone to be guilty until after a fair trial either, and depending on how fair it was, maybe not even then.
But in this post, I nowhere claimed to personally find Khalsa innocent or guilty. I only restated parts of his trial that are already public.
If posting something on a blog makes it seem true to you or anyone else, you (or they) need a higher standard for, and better way to find out the truth.
to my knowledge he hasnt been proven guilty so why have some of us put the burden of guilt on him already. He’s innocent until proven otherwise.
duh…thank you jonhny cochran.
but given the known facts, we can still speculate that he may be guilty and discuss the many implications and possible contributory factors of his alleged actions so that we may better ourselves and our community.
Reema don’t worry about what other people might say, its good of you to bring up these issues that some refuse to believe that exist in our community.
Speaking of these issues, there was another murder of punjabi women by husband this weekend in the Vancouver area. She was shot by her husband and the couple 20 something daughter was shot by father and is in the hostipal, but the couples two sons were not harmed by her father. Hopefully there will more details in the next few days. But I hope this was not a case of marriage that was falling apart, but the couple could not get divorce due to what the community would think, or the father being upset with her daughter being too western.
Since you put up this post, and wanted to get a reaction, knowing full well that many many people absolutely DO NOT equivocate Punjabi culture and Sikh culture together, either 1. because they aren’t Punjabi ethnically speaking or 2. they are Punjabi ethnically, but don’t identify with Punjabi culture because they identify with Sikh culture, you can explain to the readers what parts of what this person may or may not have done have anything to do with Sikh culture?
Your response that many “Sikhs have some connection to Punjab” doesn’t address the issue. What does anyone’s past affliation with Punjab have to do with anything? There are many ethnic Irish in Canada and the USA, yet no one starts questioning how their Catholicism has anything to do with what may be purely Irish ethnic issues?
Also, what bad values do you attribute to Sikh culture because you wrote, “Why can only our problems come from our Punjabi-ness and only our good values be attributed to our Sikh identity?” This may precisely be the case.
You said it, now defend it, what are these “bad” values??
I don’t mind discussing the issue of this person being murdered allegedly by his girlfriend’s father, but don’t link it in any way with Sikh religion or Sikhs.
regards,
Kaptaan.
Sukhi, You stated “Don’t worry what other people say” I was just bring about my opinion on the article. Every world community has issues, but it does not really help to keep fueling the fire of issues that exist within our community. Why not rather discuss solution to these problems. How one can take step on personal level to solve these issues. Make life’s better for people that surrounding our circle. We come in this world empty handed and we gonna leave empty. Only thing that will go with us is our karma.
Oh, Kaptaan. I feel like a broken record, having to say the same thing over and over again. There is a disparity between Sikh doctrine and what is practiced.
If you think that anyone who doesn’t perfectly follow Sikh doctrine is not a Sikh, then there are too few Sikhs to make a Sikh community.
maybe you feel like a broken record because you don’t answer questions put to you after you make contentious statements. you still haven’t explained what “bad” values you attribute to Sikh culture. Sikh doctrine doesn’t have anything to do with what you wrote. Why are you attributing anything this person did to Sikh culture?
Perhaps, if all the principals of this tragedy followed Sikh culture instead of Punjabi culture things might have had a happier ending? How about blogging about the virtue of a Sikh cultural solution to these types of tragedies???
Kaptaan,
Sikhi has no bad qualities or bad values - if I believed otherwise, I would not be a Sikh. Many Sikhs have plenty of bad qualities and bad values - to believe otherwise would be ridiculous.
Like you kaptaan, I attribute these bad qualities and/or values to the Punjabi in me, not to the Sikh in me; however, if I understand Reema correctly, how the heck does one separate the Sikh from the Punjabi (re Punjabi Sikhs) - as if an individual’s identity can be separated like two pieces of lego when necessary? Perhaps this is exactly the case, but it all appears a little too convenient and disingenous.
Sikhi, when adhered to completely, when a Sikh bows his/her head to the Guru and accepts the Guru’s thinking entirely in lieu of his/her own (gurmat vs manmat), is the ideal. In my opinion, it would be impossible to find any flaw in such a Sikh. But how many such flawless Sikhs have you encountered? 1? 2?
For example, if a Punjabi Sikh exhibits sexist/casteist behaviour - we can readily acknowledge that such values stem from Punjabi culture and NOT from Sikh principles; however, why is the Sikh in that person not held accountable? Should not the Sikh values held by that Sikh provide a more than sufficient counterbalance to any of the idiocy found in Punjabi culture? Ideally, yes. Realistically, it is hit or miss. Sikhi may wholly denounce sexism/casteism but there are many Sikhs who harbour sexist/casteist values. This is as much a problem arising from that Punabi’s Punjabiyat, as it is a weakness in that Sikh’s Sikhi.
If we are to have a bright-line test on the matter, then we can do so easily - anyone who adheres 100% to the Guru’s teachings is a Sikh and anyone who deviates even slightly is not a Sikh. If we go that route, the Sikh community dwindles to a handful of individuals, if that.
While we can certainly attribute the root of many evils in our community to culture, such attribution alone does little to counter the evil, and often comes across as weak justification and rationalization. If these problems are going to be addressed properly, then we need to acknowledge these problems exist amongst Punjabi Sikhs and step up to counter them as Punjabi Sikhs.
P.Singh: Well-said.
Thanks P.Singh for clearly addressing this on-going issue on our community! Nicely said!
P. Singh, et al.
so we agree that when someone who has a dual identity is confronted with an issue it should be Sikh culture, principle and gurmat that he/ she should turn to to resolve the issue in the most moral ethical manner?
Secondly, you and I may agree that Punjabi/ non-Sikh culture and values which aren’t in consonance with Sikh culture and values influence the negativity in our lives, whereas Sikhi doesn’t promote negative or bad values and behaviour.
Thirdly, Reema wanted to know why negatives should only be attributed to Punjabi culture and only good values to Sikh culture. Well, building on your point, Sikh culture and religious values and principles only inculcate positive life affirming behaviours. Whether it is Punjabi, Eastern, or Western culture which is the font for casteism, sexism, racism, bigotry, hate, inequality, inhumanity, or any other negative behaviour doesn’t matter because my point is that it is not Sikh culture or values that do this.
The way I see it, this is a forum where we can only communicate with words and so Reema’s words matter on this point. I would like to know if she agrees with this point.
I’d like to see Reema propose a stronger identification of Sikhs with the Sikh identity to mitigate ‘bad’ behaviour that some people pursue. If she wants people to live truer to Sikh values which are against the practice of sexism, racism, casteism, etc… then make that point in posts.
We can all let people know we don’t agree with them when they engage in anti-Sikh practices around us and are looking for our acceptance of that behaviour or want us to go along with it. IF someone makes racist statements or casteist statements you should let them know its not part of what you believe.
I don’t deny having been influenced by non-Sikh culture, however, I believe in choosing the Sikh identity to guide me when Sikh values and non-Sikhs values conflict. I believe that’s the point when I or others say that we identify more as Sikhs and not as Punjabis or Chinese or Namibian or whatever ethnicity someone might be. That doesn’t mean I deny that I’m a Punjabi, but it doesn mean that I don’t accept Punjabiness or any other identity lock, stock and barrel.
regards,
Kaptaan
[...] With respect to an honor killing where the family has been allegedly shamed, just days ago Reema discussed the case of Gurparkash Khalsa — a man who heard rumors that his daughter had been impregnated [...]
Apologies in advance - for the long post. If I had the patience to read over what I’ve written, I’m sure I could have ‘halved-it’. Chalo - next time
Kaptaan,
With regards to your first question, I think my previous post made my opinion on dual-identities fairly clear. To reiterate, I do not think the Sikh part of us, and the Punjabi/Chinese/etc. side of us can be so easily separated whenever convenience or rationalization or justification calls for it. When a Punjabi Sikh slaps his wife, it is a Sikh slapping his wife as much as it is a Punjabi slapping his wife, irrespective of the original source of such negative values.
I do not think we have any argument on the purity of Sikhi followed in ideal fashion, but sadly, that ideal form has always been rare. Even Guru Gobind Singh ji’s hand picked Singhs revealed less than ideal behavior. For example, Guru ji selected 5 trusted men (Panj-Piare) to accompany Banda Singh Bahadur, and some accounts indicate at least two of them revealed themselves to be casteist (Binod Singh and Kahan Singh) when they took control of Amritsar. Regardless of the source of their casteism, they were Sikhs espousing casteist beliefs and we cannot brush aside that Sikhs continue to espouse this and other negative beliefs, by throwing the strawman of Punjabi culture into the mix.
When a Christian priest sexually assaults a young altar boy, we do not justify/rationalize such depravity by labeling it inconsistent with ideal Christian thought, and saying it was the English/Spanish/German side of that priest that committed the crime. The perpetrator was a Christian and the problem needs to be addressed by Christians and Christian institutions. The problem is a Christian problem.
Accepting first that I disagree with this concept of duality that you have mentioned – and I do (there is no air-tight, compartmentalized Sikh self and Punjabi self), consider the following: If negative values from whatever source (Afghan culture, Punjabi culture, European culture) exist amongst Sikhs, do they not become a part of Sikh culture? What if such negative values exist amongst Sikhs for 100 years, 1000 years, 10,000 years? How long do Sikhs continue rationalizing such problems as being rooted in XYZ culture, and not taking responsibility for such flaws as Sikhs?
To clarify again, ideal Sikh culture would be a community of saints – we’d all be perfect, and there would be heaven on earth. Real Sikh culture, as it exists today, is far from ideal. I simply do not think we can disavow the negatives in our community as separate from Sikh culture. Separate from ideal Sikh culture perhaps – but not separate from Sikh culture as we find it today.
I have little contention with the rest of what you have written. The Sikh community, Sikh institutions, and yes, even Sikh culture today, is a fragmented, out-of-focus, and in many ways, corrupt image of what it should be, of what it could be if the ideals of Sikhi were followed intact. As you have mentioned, and I agree, we need to turn to these ideals to solve the problems in our midst.
To avoid any misunderstanding, is there anything in my previous post which you disagree with? If so, please point it out.
Thank you Mewa Singh and Phulkari – I was pretty sure I wasn’t the only one who thought in this fashion – good to have the confirmation though!
Ps. On a slight tangent - if we agree that there is no such thing as Sikh culture, the picture becomes uncluttered…hmmmm . For some Sikhs, those with non-Punjabi ethnicity, perhaps the picture is uncluttered. For Punjabi Sikhs, I think the culture and religious beliefs have been intertwined over the centuries – putting them in a slightly different position than Sikhs of other ethnicities? A random thought/question, but there it is…