Did I mention I like Sikh T-Shirts?
I like T-shirts. I am a self-described ‘scrub.’
Someone who doesn’t care much about what they do or how they look doing it. Or if you just do something very very stupid.
((Girl walks into classroom for a class one day dressed in XXL sweatpants and a huge baggy sweatshirt, no makeup, hair looks nasty, but shes in perfect good health, just very lazy))
“Wow Anne, you are dressed like a scrub.”
T-shirts are my staple. For every season I have a Sikh camp/organization T-shirt. Need brown, I got it; need blue, I got it; need maroon, I got it. Did I mention I like T-shirts?
Apparently, so do a group of Sikh high school students in Surrey. Recently, the Canadian press reported here and here that:
Thirty students at Princess Margaret Secondary School say they’ve been put on suspension notice after wearing contentious T-shirts to class.
[Quick note, another new website reported twenty students]
The students commented:
“At around nine o’clock they (school supervisors) yelled at me and said get into the office right now,” said one student, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. “When I got to the office, they tried to explain to me this is not a political school.”
Another stated:
“(A teacher) asked me to take off the shirt, but I wasn’t wearing anything underneath I didn’t have anything else at school, so they said put on a jacket so I had to put on a jacket and zip it up,” said one student, who declined to give his name.
“They’re saying it’s politics in the school, and the school doesn’t do politics, you’re not allowed to wear political shirts, right. But this has nothing to do with politics.”
Now although, I do love T-shirts, I am not saying all T-shirts are equal. In a prior post, I suggested that Sikh kids should retire the BKI T-shirts and other T-shirts. In that post, I wrote:
The guns of the Babbar Khalsa logo has become ‘cool.’ It has become the Sikh youth Che Guevera T-Shirt. Find another logo kids.
If the T-shirts had images of guns, then I agree that they should not be worn and the school district did the right thing. However, from the image, I don’t see any guns. In fact one student vehemently denied the accusation:
But some witnesses say they also saw similar t-shirts with images of AK47s on them, although the students deny that claim.
One website shows a picture of a T-shirt with guns, but I have a feeling this is just stock footage and without context was added to the article for the intended hysterical reaction.
Now, I am sure the hoopla is connected to the much-ado-about-nothing stir from the Surrey Nagar Kirtan. Despite all the stir in the Canadian national press, the event was successful, peaceful, and even the police thanked the over 130,000 people in attendance for a great family affair.
“I have to tip my hat to the South Asian community,” Surrey RCMP Sgt. Roger Morrow said Tuesday. “It was truly a celebration, there were no police incidents, and I thank them and congratulate them for it.”
However, from what I see of the T-shirts it seems that while they do convey a political message, this is a freedom of expression issue. In fact I give respect to one student that didn’t back down:
But at least one student says he will probably wear the shirt again.
“I don’t care,” he said. “Our tenth guru said, when all means of addressing the wrongs have failed it is righteous to raise a sword.”
So I say let the kids wear it. In fact, despite the political message, send me one and I will wear it in solidarity. Plus I need another black T-shirt!
115 Responses to “Did I mention I like Sikh T-Shirts?”
wow Bobby!! I'll agree with Prabhu ji and say that you do write really well!! I am in UK currently but I am originally from Canada. We went to the Southall gurdwara here recently and after a long time, I felt free from any extremist or political propaganda that we often keep getting subjected to in Canadian gurdwaras. Also, like you said, nobody in India cares about Khalistan!! People are too busy advancing their careers, making money to be bothered with these divisive ideas that will only cause them harm.
Prabhu ji, I really liked the line where you mentioned that anger is one of the five thieves. Fantastic. I mean we say it in Ardaas everyday but we don't live by it. How sad is that!!
Either way, I am glad to know that there are people like you guyz out in these countries who do follow sikhi as it is intended. Whenever extreme Islam is mentioned in discussions, 'moderate' Muslims are called upon to have a voice …. I believe the same is required in Sikhism too.
Regards
wow Bobby!! I’ll agree with Prabhu ji and say that you do write really well!! I am in UK currently but I am originally from Canada. We went to the Southall gurdwara here recently and after a long time, I felt free from any extremist or political propaganda that we often keep getting subjected to in Canadian gurdwaras. Also, like you said, nobody in India cares about Khalistan!! People are too busy advancing their careers, making money to be bothered with these divisive ideas that will only cause them harm.
Prabhu ji, I really liked the line where you mentioned that anger is one of the five thieves. Fantastic. I mean we say it in Ardaas everyday but we don’t live by it. How sad is that!!
Either way, I am glad to know that there are people like you guyz out in these countries who do follow sikhi as it is intended. Whenever extreme Islam is mentioned in discussions, ‘moderate’ Muslims are called upon to have a voice …. I believe the same is required in Sikhism too.
Regards
Though I understand and sympathize with the concerns that you (RR, Bobby, and Prabhu) seem to have regarding Khalistan and its rhetoric,
it concerns me that your responses to the rhetoric aren't attacking the arguments that individuals make, but the individuals themselves.
If you're truly wary of the divisions within the community, then don't add to the divisions by categorizing people or making grand assumptions about them.
Canada doesn't protect freedom of speech/expression as much as the US (and neither do most other countries), so even though this would never happen in the US (speech has to be intended to cause real, imminent violence before it's not ok), it might be ok in Canada (I don't know where exactly the line is drawn there as to what's protected there- can any Canadians help us out?).
Though I understand and sympathize with the concerns that you (RR, Bobby, and Prabhu) seem to have regarding Khalistan and its rhetoric,
it concerns me that your responses to the rhetoric aren’t attacking the arguments that individuals make, but the individuals themselves.
If you’re truly wary of the divisions within the community, then don’t add to the divisions by categorizing people or making grand assumptions about them.
Canada doesn’t protect freedom of speech/expression as much as the US (and neither do most other countries), so even though this would never happen in the US (speech has to be intended to cause real, imminent violence before it’s not ok), it might be ok in Canada (I don’t know where exactly the line is drawn there as to what’s protected there- can any Canadians help us out?).
quick clarification of my above statement – I don't mean to question your real awareness of certain divisions- but I just think that while being wary of some divisions, it does no good to perpetuate others. no offense intended. just my 2 cents.
quick clarification of my above statement – I don’t mean to question your real awareness of certain divisions- but I just think that while being wary of some divisions, it does no good to perpetuate others. no offense intended. just my 2 cents.
Wow. Not having spoken to these kids, not having listened to why they chose to wear these shirts, and certainly not having given them any benefit of doubt – that their actions could possibly be rooted in anything genuine or legitimate, you have no problems labelling their actions as mere "posturing". Moreover, you state such posturing is rooted in "severe dysfunction" – how do you know this? From reading a news article? From listening to a sound bite on the ten o'clock news?
Where do you get the audacity to patronize these kids by labelling their intentions and actions as "romanticizing" the issue of Khalistan? Do you presume that they do not know the history behind the movement or have the ability to form legitimate political opinions? That they do not have the ability to understand the issues? Or is that you know better than they do, or that anyone having political views different than yours on the issue of Khalistan, is a self-pitying narcisist, whose words and actions are necessarily rooted in severe dysfunction?
You do not know these kids and you do not know of the genuine beliefs they may hold and which may have spurred their actions. You have offered your opinion on this issue (repetitively), and that is fine. However, attacking these kids is not fine. So let me say it more plainly, I find your comments in this regard to be arrogant, patronizing, and yes, a touch loathsome.
What was the offending words I used, admin? I can't even remember. I believe I described those jihadis in England who foment hatred and violence as backwards or lunatic. I stand by that description.
I think I've done both, Reema. I think their posturing is rooted in severe dysfunction, belligerence, self-pitying narcissim (as in attention seeking) and chauvinism, as well as extremism and the romanticising of a complex and tragic period of our recent history. So I'll say it more plainly — I find their whole attempt to intimidate people to be divisive and loathsome.
Here is an article that makes some very good points, I feel.
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5i6M…
Those places do exist in the UK, there are a couple of Gurdwarey in Birmingham like that, but they are extremely marginal compared to how it seems to be in Canada, especially in Vancouver. It is a question of degree and for whatever reason its not so bad here. But we should always be vigilant about it. I personally intend to keep drawing the comparisons with jihadism and Islamic fundamentalism within the Pakistani Muslim diaspora. It is a very appropriate comparison and the highlighting of the similarities may open the eyes and wake up people who are sleeping about this issue. We do not want to go down the path that tragically, a section of the Pakistani Muslim diaspora have gone down.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with what the school did. They have every right to insist that provocative communalist / sectarian / political sloganeering designed to intimidate, bully and inflame are not allowed in their space. What next, Hindu kids wearing RSS t-shirts? Muslim kids wearing Hamas t-shirts? Jewish kids wearing Kahane t-shirts? White kids wearing White Pride t-shirts?
These boys were trying to intimidate Sikhs as well as non Sikhs. It was co-ordinated, and they got their 15 minutes of militant fame. The militants and separatists have been tickled pink by it all, the ideologues have been enraptured by it all.
Back in the real world, life goes on, no matter how much attention seeking ideologues propounding theocratic totalitarian dreams name checking violence and belligerence feel fulfilled for getting their pictures on local TV.
Hello Bobby,
Restating the same thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER doesn't really do much except annoy the hell out of the people who made the mistake of subscribing to this entry, even if we're inclined to agree with you.
Best,
sizzle.
What was the offending words I used, admin? I can’t even remember. I believe I described those jihadis in England who foment hatred and violence as backwards or lunatic. I stand by that description.
I think I’ve done both, Reema. I think their posturing is rooted in severe dysfunction, belligerence, self-pitying narcissim (as in attention seeking) and chauvinism, as well as extremism and the romanticising of a complex and tragic period of our recent history. So I’ll say it more plainly — I find their whole attempt to intimidate people to be divisive and loathsome.
Here is an article that makes some very good points, I feel.
http://canadianpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5i6MDvZC-tmesKDcRNP87HHCTjpDA
Those places do exist in the UK, there are a couple of Gurdwarey in Birmingham like that, but they are extremely marginal compared to how it seems to be in Canada, especially in Vancouver. It is a question of degree and for whatever reason its not so bad here. But we should always be vigilant about it. I personally intend to keep drawing the comparisons with jihadism and Islamic fundamentalism within the Pakistani Muslim diaspora. It is a very appropriate comparison and the highlighting of the similarities may open the eyes and wake up people who are sleeping about this issue. We do not want to go down the path that tragically, a section of the Pakistani Muslim diaspora have gone down.
Bobby, I found the following statement from the article you referenced to be quite ridiculous:
John Thompson has little support for numbers of Sikhs killed by so-called militants, and appears to have ignored the tens of thousands killed by the Indian government. If we go by the numbers calculated by Mr. Khalra, the illegal cremations by the government in just Amritsar alone are horrific. There is little in the way of equivalency here – the Indian government committed unjustifiable, atrocious crimes upon the Sikhs, and the state-sponsored murders of Sikhs, approved by the Indian government, are the primary reason the issue of Khalistan still exists.
Then there is the obligatory statement tying Sikhs to the Air India bombing – sans evidence, of course. But why should lack of evidence keep anyone from villifying the Sikhs? I'm not surprised the writer failed to mention Canadian courts found the two Sikhs charged with Air India to be innocent.
Furthermore, the article paints a picture of the Khalistan movement which is common to such articles, and which has always bothered me. There is the premise that the Khalistan movement was an extremist, violent, seperatist movement and that the Indian government's actions, as horrible as they were, were in response to such violence.
That simply is not true. If anything, violence became a tool for the Sikhs, in response to the Indian government's brutality.
There’s absolutely nothing wrong with what the school did. They have every right to insist that provocative communalist / sectarian / political sloganeering designed to intimidate, bully and inflame are not allowed in their space. What next, Hindu kids wearing RSS t-shirts? Muslim kids wearing Hamas t-shirts? Jewish kids wearing Kahane t-shirts? White kids wearing White Pride t-shirts?
These boys were trying to intimidate Sikhs as well as non Sikhs. It was co-ordinated, and they got their 15 minutes of militant fame. The militants and separatists have been tickled pink by it all, the ideologues have been enraptured by it all.
Back in the real world, life goes on, no matter how much attention seeking ideologues propounding theocratic totalitarian dreams name checking violence and belligerence feel fulfilled for getting their pictures on local TV.
Hello Bobby,
Restating the same thing OVER AND OVER AND OVER doesn’t really do much except annoy the hell out of the people who made the mistake of subscribing to this entry, even if we’re inclined to agree with you.
Best,
sizzle.
I thought Bobby's suggested read was also interesting and just did some easy 'google' searches to find out the credentials of those 'experts' that were used:
I thought this is an interesting line of argument. It means that should a Jew ever be given a position in the German Government, then "times have changed" and Jews no longer should have any grievances. I assume it also means should Obama win the US presidential election, then 'racism,' as felt by so many communities of color, no longer exists? And if previous grievances existed, how have they been alleviated? Those political problems that used to exist, still exist.
Professor Aditya Raj only recently came to Canada and I would not expect an expert on 'curriculum studies' to be the first available 'expert' on such a sensitive topic.
The Mackenzie Institute is a Canadian statist organization. The most widely quoted person on their website seems to be Victor Davis Hansen of the Hoover Institute, an extreme Bush idealogue and neo-conservative. I was reading from their website and their claims and scare tactics are simply preposterous.
So beware of dhaaba owner, oh naive citizens of Canada! A terrorist lurks behind the jalaybi counter. Be afraid, be very afraid!
Bobby, I found the following statement from the article you referenced to be quite ridiculous:
John Thompson has little support for numbers of Sikhs killed by so-called militants, and appears to have ignored the tens of thousands killed by the Indian government. If we go by the numbers calculated by Mr. Khalra, the illegal cremations by the government in just Amritsar alone are horrific. There is little in the way of equivalency here – the Indian government committed unjustifiable, atrocious crimes upon the Sikhs, and the state-sponsored murders of Sikhs, approved by the Indian government, are the primary reason the issue of Khalistan still exists.
Then there is the obligatory statement tying Sikhs to the Air India bombing – sans evidence, of course. But why should lack of evidence keep anyone from villifying the Sikhs? I’m not surprised the writer failed to mention Canadian courts found the two Sikhs charged with Air India to be innocent.
Furthermore, the article paints a picture of the Khalistan movement which is common to such articles, and which has always bothered me. There is the premise that the Khalistan movement was an extremist, violent, seperatist movement and that the Indian government’s actions, as horrible as they were, were in response to such violence.
That simply is not true. If anything, violence became a tool for the Sikhs, in response to the Indian government’s brutality.
Wow, this is merely resulting in a pro-k and anti-k discussion … rather futile accusations.
just a few points …
1. P. Singh ji: Although I value your analysis, I would've interpreted the same quotation differently. I would say that Mr. Thompson does acknowledge the so-called atrocities committed by Indira Gandhi and her clique, however, his point is that years of Sikh terrorism that resulted in Punjab due to the tragic events of 1984 took more Sikh lives than 1984 ghallu-ghaara itself (which is true).
2. Mewa Singh ji: I would say that since Prof Aditya Raj recently came to Canada from India, he is far more knowledgeable of the ground realities than us. He might not be an expert but he surely is more knowledgeable on this 'sensitive' issue than we ever can be sitting away from India or visiting there for a month or so every year. I would trust an illiterate person from India to know better than a fully scholarly Canadian or American who has never lived consistently in India post 1984 and is unaware of the ground truths completely.
3. dear reema: you said .. "so even though this (banning kids wearing t-shirts) would never happen in the US" … i have a question …. (stealing Bobby's words) would Hindu kids wearing RSS t-shirts? Muslim kids wearing Hamas t-shirts? Jewish kids wearing Kahane t-shirts? White kids wearing White Pride t-shirts? be allowed in US as well????
I am not sure if any one of you is aware of the very recent situation when a political party in Maharashtra started riots in Maharashtra to kick all North Indians out of the state. They said that Maharashtra only belongs to Marathi people. They didn't get support from majority at all … neither from India nor from Maharashtra itself. There were riots in the state. People were attacked. North Indians (from Bihar and UP mainly) were targeted. Amidst all this violence, one innocent Marathi man was accidentally killed in one such riot. He was only coming back home from his day at work. Just like I saw one Sikh person getting killed on his bicycle as a result of a random shooting in Ludhiana in 1980z period of terrorism. He was merely coming back home on his cycle from a day of work too.
Either way, what I am trying to say is … situation in India now is different than what it was in 14 years ago. No one wants violence. No one wants separatism. Sikhs are well integrated into the society. I am married into a South Indian family and my in-laws have no issues in me practicing Sikhism despite them being from a very traditionally orthodox background themselves. When I was there visiting them, I met a Sikh gentleman who has a shop in a remote area of South India. He was a very happy man. He had a good business, respect of people there, and he was treated well by all!! No issues!!
It's a global economy now. We're all gradually becoming global citizens. More I travel, more I lose my alliance to any country really. I don't wear my nationalism on my sleeve anymore. I feel a part of the world rather than just a Canadian. As for my religion, it is something I hold in my heart. It is not to impose on anyone. I give respect to everyone I meet. Even if they disrespect me in return, my religion (Sikhi) teaches me to respect them regardless.
It was our Guru Arjan Dev Ji who sat on a hot plate and didn't lose his cool. It was our Guru Teg Bahadur Ji who didn't flinch before laying his life down for saving some other religion. It was Guru Gobind Singh Hi who despite losing his family only thanked God for his well being from the jungles of Machhiwara in Mitar Pyaare Nu. Such fine examples of extreme patience, love and tolerance for all other religions and self-sacrifice for the greater good … and yet we get wrapped up in selfish petty reasons to fight? Greater good in current situation is to spread word of love and peace and certainly NOT separatism. Not even the idea of it. Greater good is in acknowledging and moving on the past, and also acknowledging the change that has occurred in the last 14 years. Greater good is in acknowledging the present and live in the present.
Again, thanks for this platform. I won't be writing anymore on this topic. Like I said, it's becoming a battle between anti-k and pro-k where no one is willing to listen to the other point of view.
That would include me too I guess. I am all for complete snubbing of any feeling of separatism or hatred even if in a benign form. It's about time we let our religion rule us supreme in its true practical sense of loving and tolerating everyone despite of who they are or what they did/do. Of course, there are conflicting point of views to my statement, and I respect them too.
Thanks everyone. I surely have learned a lot from this discussion. I thank all of you for it.
Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh
R R
Wow. Not having spoken to these kids, not having listened to why they chose to wear these shirts, and certainly not having given them any benefit of doubt – that their actions could possibly be rooted in anything genuine or legitimate, you have no problems labelling their actions as mere “posturing”. Moreover, you state such posturing is rooted in “severe dysfunction” – how do you know this? From reading a news article? From listening to a sound bite on the ten o’clock news?
Where do you get the audacity to patronize these kids by labelling their intentions and actions as “romanticizing” the issue of Khalistan? Do you presume that they do not know the history behind the movement or have the ability to form legitimate political opinions? That they do not have the ability to understand the issues? Or is that you know better than they do, or that anyone having political views different than yours on the issue of Khalistan, is a self-pitying narcisist, whose words and actions are necessarily rooted in severe dysfunction?
You do not know these kids and you do not know of the genuine beliefs they may hold and which may have spurred their actions. You have offered your opinion on this issue (repetitively), and that is fine. However, attacking these kids is not fine. So let me say it more plainly, I find your comments in this regard to be arrogant, patronizing, and yes, a touch loathsome.
I thought Bobby’s suggested read was also interesting and just did some easy ‘google’ searches to find out the credentials of those ‘experts’ that were used:
I thought this is an interesting line of argument. It means that should a Jew ever be given a position in the German Government, then “times have changed” and Jews no longer should have any grievances. I assume it also means should Obama win the US presidential election, then ‘racism,’ as felt by so many communities of color, no longer exists? And if previous grievances existed, how have they been alleviated? Those political problems that used to exist, still exist.
Professor Aditya Raj only recently came to Canada and I would not expect an expert on ‘curriculum studies’ to be the first available ‘expert’ on such a sensitive topic.
The Mackenzie Institute is a Canadian statist organization. The most widely quoted person on their website seems to be Victor Davis Hansen of the Hoover Institute, an extreme Bush idealogue and neo-conservative. I was reading from their website and their claims and scare tactics are simply preposterous.
So beware of dhaaba owner, oh naive citizens of Canada! A terrorist lurks behind the jalaybi counter. Be afraid, be very afraid!
Roop,
I agree if the conversation is that you wish to suggest than it may not be productive. However, I do appreciate that I believe most have been civil, polite, and engaging.
I am going to address your comment about 'expertise' based on 'nationality.' If I may make an analogy, you are suggesting a 'sick' person is more of an expert on a viral infection than a physician? Since the 'sick' person has lived/is living the experience, than by virtue of that, they would automatically know more than a person that has studied a particular situation. It seems rather simplistic. In fact the problem that you are not engaging in is there are MANY 'ground realities.'
Finally, although you addressed it to Reema, I do want to comment on the right to freedom of speech. The answer to your question is YES they would and should be allowed. Here I am NOT drawing parallels in causes, but only defending the absolute belief in FREEDOM of SPEECH. Although I have disagreements with the American government, I do think that the American PEOPLE can be great. It has been some years since I read a book titled When the Nazis came to Skokie, about how the ACLU successfully defended the right of some Neo-Nazis to hold a demonstration in a city where 1 out of every 6 Jews in the Chicago suburb was a Holocaust survivor. The book has always left an impact upon me and my absolute defense for freedom of speech, and yes as the subtitle of the book states "[even for] Freedom for Speech We Hate."
Wow, this is merely resulting in a pro-k and anti-k discussion … rather futile accusations.
just a few points …
1. P. Singh ji: Although I value your analysis, I would’ve interpreted the same quotation differently. I would say that Mr. Thompson does acknowledge the so-called atrocities committed by Indira Gandhi and her clique, however, his point is that years of Sikh terrorism that resulted in Punjab due to the tragic events of 1984 took more Sikh lives than 1984 ghallu-ghaara itself (which is true).
2. Mewa Singh ji: I would say that since Prof Aditya Raj recently came to Canada from India, he is far more knowledgeable of the ground realities than us. He might not be an expert but he surely is more knowledgeable on this ‘sensitive’ issue than we ever can be sitting away from India or visiting there for a month or so every year. I would trust an illiterate person from India to know better than a fully scholarly Canadian or American who has never lived consistently in India post 1984 and is unaware of the ground truths completely.
3. dear reema: you said .. “so even though this (banning kids wearing t-shirts) would never happen in the US” … i have a question …. (stealing Bobby’s words) would Hindu kids wearing RSS t-shirts? Muslim kids wearing Hamas t-shirts? Jewish kids wearing Kahane t-shirts? White kids wearing White Pride t-shirts? be allowed in US as well????
I am not sure if any one of you is aware of the very recent situation when a political party in Maharashtra started riots in Maharashtra to kick all North Indians out of the state. They said that Maharashtra only belongs to Marathi people. They didn’t get support from majority at all … neither from India nor from Maharashtra itself. There were riots in the state. People were attacked. North Indians (from Bihar and UP mainly) were targeted. Amidst all this violence, one innocent Marathi man was accidentally killed in one such riot. He was only coming back home from his day at work. Just like I saw one Sikh person getting killed on his bicycle as a result of a random shooting in Ludhiana in 1980z period of terrorism. He was merely coming back home on his cycle from a day of work too.
Either way, what I am trying to say is … situation in India now is different than what it was in 14 years ago. No one wants violence. No one wants separatism. Sikhs are well integrated into the society. I am married into a South Indian family and my in-laws have no issues in me practicing Sikhism despite them being from a very traditionally orthodox background themselves. When I was there visiting them, I met a Sikh gentleman who has a shop in a remote area of South India. He was a very happy man. He had a good business, respect of people there, and he was treated well by all!! No issues!!
It’s a global economy now. We’re all gradually becoming global citizens. More I travel, more I lose my alliance to any country really. I don’t wear my nationalism on my sleeve anymore. I feel a part of the world rather than just a Canadian. As for my religion, it is something I hold in my heart. It is not to impose on anyone. I give respect to everyone I meet. Even if they disrespect me in return, my religion (Sikhi) teaches me to respect them regardless.
It was our Guru Arjan Dev Ji who sat on a hot plate and didn’t lose his cool. It was our Guru Teg Bahadur Ji who didn’t flinch before laying his life down for saving some other religion. It was Guru Gobind Singh Hi who despite losing his family only thanked God for his well being from the jungles of Machhiwara in Mitar Pyaare Nu. Such fine examples of extreme patience, love and tolerance for all other religions and self-sacrifice for the greater good … and yet we get wrapped up in selfish petty reasons to fight? Greater good in current situation is to spread word of love and peace and certainly NOT separatism. Not even the idea of it. Greater good is in acknowledging and moving on the past, and also acknowledging the change that has occurred in the last 14 years. Greater good is in acknowledging the present and live in the present.
Again, thanks for this platform. I won’t be writing anymore on this topic. Like I said, it’s becoming a battle between anti-k and pro-k where no one is willing to listen to the other point of view.
That would include me too I guess. I am all for complete snubbing of any feeling of separatism or hatred even if in a benign form. It’s about time we let our religion rule us supreme in its true practical sense of loving and tolerating everyone despite of who they are or what they did/do. Of course, there are conflicting point of views to my statement, and I respect them too.
Thanks everyone. I surely have learned a lot from this discussion. I thank all of you for it.
Waheguru ji ka khalsa
Waheguru ji ki fateh
R R
Roop,
I agree if the conversation is that you wish to suggest than it may not be productive. However, I do appreciate that I believe most have been civil, polite, and engaging.
I am going to address your comment about ‘expertise’ based on ‘nationality.’ If I may make an analogy, you are suggesting a ‘sick’ person is more of an expert on a viral infection than a physician? Since the ‘sick’ person has lived/is living the experience, than by virtue of that, they would automatically know more than a person that has studied a particular situation. It seems rather simplistic. In fact the problem that you are not engaging in is there are MANY ‘ground realities.’
Finally, although you addressed it to Reema, I do want to comment on the right to freedom of speech. The answer to your question is YES they would and should be allowed. Here I am NOT drawing parallels in causes, but only defending the absolute belief in FREEDOM of SPEECH. Although I have disagreements with the American government, I do think that the American PEOPLE can be great. It has been some years since I read a book titled When the Nazis came to Skokie, about how the ACLU successfully defended the right of some Neo-Nazis to hold a demonstration in a city where 1 out of every 6 Jews in the Chicago suburb was a Holocaust survivor. The book has always left an impact upon me and my absolute defense for freedom of speech, and yes as the subtitle of the book states “[even for] Freedom for Speech We Hate.”
Dear RR,
The discussion to me so far has seemed anti K vs. freedom of speech. I am certainly not pro k, for some of the reasons that have already been stated above in conversation by others. I was making a factual assertion as to what the status of freedom of speech currently is in the US and Canada- not what it should be, but what it is.
For better or for worse (I happen to think it is a safety valve that allows grievances to be aired), freedom of speech is a highly protected right in the US, unless it is being used to incite violence- the kind of immediate violence that wearing a t-shirt does not do. Yes, for better or for worse, kids in the US have an objective right to wear RSS shirts. If you don't want your kids to be subjected to political speech, you may have to send them to private school (unless you live in Canada
).
Your view about snubbing any form of hatred, even in benign forms is interesting. Though I value what I think is the motivation behind it- to prevent more violence- I think snubbing speech is counterproductive to preventing violence. I think the most effective response to hate speech is MORE speech- the type of thing you stated above:
I do agree that once K is brought into conversation, the conversation tends to deteriorate as emotions on both sides get (understandably) inflamed.
Dear RR,
The discussion to me so far has seemed anti K vs. freedom of speech. I am certainly not pro k, for some of the reasons that have already been stated above in conversation by others. I was making a factual assertion as to what the status of freedom of speech currently is in the US and Canada- not what it should be, but what it is.
For better or for worse (I happen to think it is a safety valve that allows grievances to be aired), freedom of speech is a highly protected right in the US, unless it is being used to incite violence- the kind of immediate violence that wearing a t-shirt does not do. Yes, for better or for worse, kids in the US have an objective right to wear RSS shirts. If you don’t want your kids to be subjected to political speech, you may have to send them to private school (unless you live in Canada
).
Your view about snubbing any form of hatred, even in benign forms is interesting. Though I value what I think is the motivation behind it- to prevent more violence- I think snubbing speech is counterproductive to preventing violence. I think the most effective response to hate speech is MORE speech- the type of thing you stated above:
I do agree that once K is brought into conversation, the conversation tends to deteriorate as emotions on both sides get (understandably) inflamed.
RR,
I haven't really seen this discussion as anti-Khalistan vs pro-Khalistan, but can see how it can be interpreted that way.
In case it is of interest, I am not in favor of many of the popular ideas put forward by those supporting Khalistan; however, I believe these individuals have the right to their political views, regardless of my particular stance. Moreover, I have spoken to enough pro-K individuals to know that they do not all fit the caricature of brain-washed extremist fanatics, hell-bent on causing violence. I may not agree with their rationale on many fronts, but they are as entitled to their political opinions as I am to mine.
RR,
I haven’t really seen this discussion as anti-Khalistan vs pro-Khalistan, but can see how it can be interpreted that way.
In case it is of interest, I am not in favor of many of the popular ideas put forward by those supporting Khalistan; however, I believe these individuals have the right to their political views, regardless of my particular stance. Moreover, I have spoken to enough pro-K individuals to know that they do not all fit the caricature of brain-washed extremist fanatics, hell-bent on causing violence. I may not agree with their rationale on many fronts, but they are as entitled to their political opinions as I am to mine.
There's nothing audacious about having an opinion. If you must know, I come from a Khalistani family and grew up amongst the brainwashing and hatred and miltancy, I recognise it all.
Really? Why is attacking 'the kids' not fine? Arrogant, patronising and loathsome? I'd say those words apply as much to you as me. Some people need to grow a thicker skin.
Use the scroll button.
Do you think schools have a right to prevent sectarian / communal / political sloganeering from entering their school body?
Restating the Voltairean principles of freedom of speech is fine, but its a circular argument. This has more to do with concerted gangsterish intimidatory activism and its place in schools, which are supposed to be places of respite from precisely this kind of thing.
Yeah. Everyone who points out the dangers of unhinged sectarian hate mongering in the context of a violent history is scaremongering. Sure they are. Preaching hatred and separatism and using cruel belligerent rhetoric and indiscriminate bigotry is not to be noted at all, or warned about the dangers of.
Carry on, nothing to worry about at all.
Who gets to decide what issues are sectarian/communal/political? As people have pointed out, a "Free Tibet" shirt would not have generated the same hysteria. On this board, it seems, people are asking for parity in freedom of their expression.
Bobby, you claim that you are concerned with 'gangsterish intimidatory activism,' however, I assume I have only read what you have read in the newspaper articles. There, at this time, does not seem to be any indication of that having gone on, unless you are claiming even the wearing of a shirt is exactly that. You may have your own personal experience from a Khalistani family, but to bring some experiences from a different time and different place and transpose them upon others is also highly problematic.
So far on this discussion board, we have only seen positions of those that are against the idea of a Sikh nation-state and those that are proposing the Surrey students have a right to freedom of expression as expressed through their T-shirts.
This is a problem in our community, especially on this issue. Those that are anti-K believe that those that are pro-K are monolithic in their belief of its promotion; those that are pro-K believe that those that are anti-K are monolithic in their beliefs of opposition. People are people. Listen to your brothers and sisters on both sides, instead of forming camps.
There’s nothing audacious about having an opinion. If you must know, I come from a Khalistani family and grew up amongst the brainwashing and hatred and miltancy, I recognise it all.
Really? Why is attacking ‘the kids’ not fine? Arrogant, patronising and loathsome? I’d say those words apply as much to you as me. Some people need to grow a thicker skin.
Use the scroll button.
Do you think schools have a right to prevent sectarian / communal / political sloganeering from entering their school body?
Restating the Voltairean principles of freedom of speech is fine, but its a circular argument. This has more to do with concerted gangsterish intimidatory activism and its place in schools, which are supposed to be places of respite from precisely this kind of thing.
Yeah. Everyone who points out the dangers of unhinged sectarian hate mongering in the context of a violent history is scaremongering. Sure they are. Preaching hatred and separatism and using cruel belligerent rhetoric and indiscriminate bigotry is not to be noted at all, or warned about the dangers of.
Carry on, nothing to worry about at all.
Who gets to decide what issues are sectarian/communal/political? As people have pointed out, a “Free Tibet” shirt would not have generated the same hysteria. On this board, it seems, people are asking for parity in freedom of their expression.
Bobby, you claim that you are concerned with ‘gangsterish intimidatory activism,’ however, I assume I have only read what you have read in the newspaper articles. There, at this time, does not seem to be any indication of that having gone on, unless you are claiming even the wearing of a shirt is exactly that. You may have your own personal experience from a Khalistani family, but to bring some experiences from a different time and different place and transpose them upon others is also highly problematic.
So far on this discussion board, we have only seen positions of those that are against the idea of a Sikh nation-state and those that are proposing the Surrey students have a right to freedom of expression as expressed through their T-shirts.
This is a problem in our community, especially on this issue. Those that are anti-K believe that those that are pro-K are monolithic in their belief of its promotion; those that are pro-K believe that those that are anti-K are monolithic in their beliefs of opposition. People are people. Listen to your brothers and sisters on both sides, instead of forming camps.
I agree, and have no problem with voicing opinions, audacious or not; however, your comments ("severe dysfunction, belligerence, self-pitying narcissim") went beyond opinion to attacking the kids themselves. I find that distasteful.
I am sorry to hear that you grew up in a brainwashing, and hate-filled militant family. Nevertheless, your unfortunate childhood experiences are not necessarily shared by these kids. I fail to see how your personal experience growing up gives you insight as to what must conclusively be the impetus behind these kids' actions.
I agree, and have no problem with voicing opinions, audacious or not; however, your comments (“severe dysfunction, belligerence, self-pitying narcissim”) went beyond opinion to attacking the kids themselves. I find that distasteful.
I am sorry to hear that you grew up in a brainwashing, and hate-filled militant family. Nevertheless, your unfortunate childhood experiences are not necessarily shared by these kids. I fail to see how your personal experience growing up gives you insight as to what must conclusively be the impetus behind these kids’ actions.
"This is a problem in our community, especially on this issue. Those that are anti-K believe that those that are pro-K are monolithic in their belief of its promotion; those that are pro-K believe that those that are anti-K are monolithic in their beliefs of opposition. People are people. Listen to your brothers and sisters on both sides, instead of forming camps."
I'm all for listening to each other. However, I have yet to see a single person who supports the idea of Khalistan draw up realistic and achievable goals. In fact, I usually "reach across the aisle" (even though I'm not entirely against the idea of Khalistan) and suggest many ways in which the people of Punjab can be helped. The response is almost always "Khalistan first, it's the only way" then we can talk about problems. Forget it, Punjab will be a desert in 10 years, if that's not fixed. Who cares about Punjab being called Khalistan or not, when facing the issues of complete extinction of the Punjabi people through self-destruction?
Guru Gobind Singh said "Khalsa Akal Purakh Ki Fauj"
He never said something so small minded as "Khalsa Khalistan Ki Fauj."
I pity the people of Punjab, and I've tried my level best to reach a few people and help them reach others about the environmental destruction which is creating a looming extinction for the people there. You can call that my contribution to "Khalistan" if you want.
“This is a problem in our community, especially on this issue. Those that are anti-K believe that those that are pro-K are monolithic in their belief of its promotion; those that are pro-K believe that those that are anti-K are monolithic in their beliefs of opposition. People are people. Listen to your brothers and sisters on both sides, instead of forming camps.”
I’m all for listening to each other. However, I have yet to see a single person who supports the idea of Khalistan draw up realistic and achievable goals. In fact, I usually “reach across the aisle” (even though I’m not entirely against the idea of Khalistan) and suggest many ways in which the people of Punjab can be helped. The response is almost always “Khalistan first, it’s the only way” then we can talk about problems. Forget it, Punjab will be a desert in 10 years, if that’s not fixed. Who cares about Punjab being called Khalistan or not, when facing the issues of complete extinction of the Punjabi people through self-destruction?
Guru Gobind Singh said “Khalsa Akal Purakh Ki Fauj”
He never said something so small minded as “Khalsa Khalistan Ki Fauj.”
I pity the people of Punjab, and I’ve tried my level best to reach a few people and help them reach others about the environmental destruction which is creating a looming extinction for the people there. You can call that my contribution to “Khalistan” if you want.
[…] stir from the Surrey Nagar Kirtan. Despite all the stir in the Canadian national press, …http://thelangarhall.com/archives/226KERNEL EDITORIAL: The 2007-08 Golden Forks The Kentucky KernelAs another finals week opens, it’s […]
[…] to attend, even if you just want to see life beyond bhangra or shoooooooooot, because you just want another Sikh T-shirt (no, you don’t get those […]
lol this was us pm boys pm o9 wattttt through all this bs at school we never wore these ak47 tees but we did at vasakhi [edited by admin- no profanity] PANORMA RIDGE AND ALL THE 09 [edited by admin]
lol this was us pm boys pm o9 wattttt through all this bs at school we never wore these ak47 tees but we did at vasakhi [edited by admin- no profanity] PANORMA RIDGE AND ALL THE 09 [edited by admin]
[…] about the Panjabi Sikh youth of the Surrey, Delta, and Vancouver Area. (Surprisingly from a previous post, these same stereotypes are held by other Sikhs as well!) In regard to out-group stress in […]
The simple fact is that these kids DO NOT have an interest in their religion. Where are their turbans? Are they strong enough to wear a turban in public or do they feel ridicule? Then why are they advertising for Khalistan? Are the official welcoming committe of the supposed nation of Khalistan?
These are the same type of kids that act hard and then run away when a group of black youths come close.
Why do the "punjabi gangsters" only fight other Indians?
These kids have a very wrong impression of Sikhism. This has been documented before by pyschologists and sociologists who tried to understand the "punjabi gang" mentality.
Many "Khalistanis" committed a lot of atrocities, including the murder of my real chacha as they stole his car in order to use it to rob a bank. It took 3 of the Khalistani (edited), armed with guns to take him down.
These kids don't know (edited). They're ABCS's to the core. American Born Confused Sikhs.
[Watch your language or you'll get banned — Admin]
The simple fact is that these kids DO NOT have an interest in their religion. Where are their turbans? Are they strong enough to wear a turban in public or do they feel ridicule? Then why are they advertising for Khalistan? Are the official welcoming committe of the supposed nation of Khalistan?
These are the same type of kids that act hard and then run away when a group of black youths come close.
Why do the “punjabi gangsters” only fight other Indians?
These kids have a very wrong impression of Sikhism. This has been documented before by pyschologists and sociologists who tried to understand the “punjabi gang” mentality.
Many “Khalistanis” committed a lot of atrocities, including the murder of my real chacha as they stole his car in order to use it to rob a bank. It took 3 of the Khalistani (edited), armed with guns to take him down.
These kids don’t know (edited). They’re ABCS’s to the core. American Born Confused Sikhs.
[Watch your language or you’ll get banned — Admin]
I feel that this is exactly what we need. Please do visit my blog: theinjusticetowardssikhs.blogspot.com
I feel that this is exactly what we need. Please do visit my blog: theinjusticetowardssikhs.blogspot.com
SIkhs make a minor 2% of the Indian population, yet we have consistenly produced 60% of the food. The Punjab was divided in half after partition and then half again in the creation of neighbouring states. My family left everything in Pakistan and started again in cultivating the jungles of their new home. The success of the Sikhs has brought them nothing but enmity from the Hindu rulers. After unjust appropriation of Punjabi waters and electricity, atrocities of rape, murder over decades, there was just one man who spoke the truth; Bhindrinwale. Yes he is a hero, and nobody should tell you otherwise. Apparently freedom of speec in Canada is only for the politically correct. I have a Yasser Arafat shirt, I proudly wear all the time, and no one has ever said anything, or do they have any right to say anything. The Khalsa sees no separtaion between religion and politics "miri piri" . One must actively participate in society for its betterment. Separation of politics and religion what a joke!! Religion is at the driving heart of most political support. This is just the smell of suburban racism. Wear your tee shirts, know your rights. How can they allow "FCUK" everywhere and not messages of political conviction? If you call your self a sikh, then KHALISTAN is the only solution. 90 million Hindus are not going to let 20 million Sikhs last for long. There is a war on! READ Cynthia Mahmood or Soft Target. Indian agents masterminded the Air India plot, RAW (india's secret agency was entirely responsible. FREE REYAT NOW!! RCMP couldnt release info because of political immunity to the Toronto Consular responsible. Stop reading racist tabloids and get the truth. Sikhs are "SOLDIER-SAINTS" Yes we should be armed all the time, not just some iconic symbols!!!!! In modern day that means the best weapons, AR-15's, AK's, etc. IF we cannot defend ourselves than how are we going to defend anyone else?? Stop the disentegration of our community! The Indian governement has an agenda, too assimilate all Sikhs and discredit them internationally, they have agents everywhere. Subverting texts, political agendas, Speak and learn Punjabi. Go to University! Empower yourself know your rights. Guru Tegh Bahadur gave his head for his convictions, to save the daughters of the Hindu priests! Stand Proud don't let the lives of all our fallen heroes be for nothing.
SIkhs make a minor 2% of the Indian population, yet we have consistenly produced 60% of the food. The Punjab was divided in half after partition and then half again in the creation of neighbouring states. My family left everything in Pakistan and started again in cultivating the jungles of their new home. The success of the Sikhs has brought them nothing but enmity from the Hindu rulers. After unjust appropriation of Punjabi waters and electricity, atrocities of rape, murder over decades, there was just one man who spoke the truth; Bhindrinwale. Yes he is a hero, and nobody should tell you otherwise. Apparently freedom of speec in Canada is only for the politically correct. I have a Yasser Arafat shirt, I proudly wear all the time, and no one has ever said anything, or do they have any right to say anything. The Khalsa sees no separtaion between religion and politics "miri piri" . One must actively participate in society for its betterment. Separation of politics and religion what a joke!! Religion is at the driving heart of most political support. This is just the smell of suburban racism. Wear your tee shirts, know your rights. How can they allow "FCUK" everywhere and not messages of political conviction? If you call your self a sikh, then KHALISTAN is the only solution. 90 million Hindus are not going to let 20 million Sikhs last for long. There is a war on! READ Cynthia Mahmood or Soft Target. Indian agents masterminded the Air India plot, RAW (india's secret agency was entirely responsible. FREE REYAT NOW!! RCMP couldnt release info because of political immunity to the Toronto Consular responsible. Stop reading racist tabloids and get the truth. Sikhs are "SOLDIER-SAINTS" Yes we should be armed all the time, not just some iconic symbols!!!!! In modern day that means the best weapons, AR-15's, AK's, etc. IF we cannot defend ourselves than how are we going to defend anyone else?? Stop the disentegration of our community! The Indian governement has an agenda, too assimilate all Sikhs and discredit them internationally, they have agents everywhere. Subverting texts, political agendas, Speak and learn Punjabi. Go to University! Empower yourself know your rights. Guru Tegh Bahadur gave his head for his convictions, to save the daughters of the Hindu priests! Stand Proud don't let the lives of all our fallen heroes be for nothing.
I meant Yes, I 'DO' feel the same way that 'Free Tibet' T-shirts should also not be allowed in schools. It is a political agenda.
Great idea you shared.